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[Dude Abides]

That is your right, but you don't have any direct counter evidence to it, correct?

Sure. Occupy Oakland claims it was peaceful.

 

[Jenga]

"Hippie. Why don't you go live in Zuccoti Park with the other drug addict homeless losers."

think to yourself how many bowls you could have smoked instead of getting all frustrated over the internet

 

[richiek]

Oakland police toss a flashbang into a crowd helping an injured person.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqNOPZLw03Q&feature=youtu.be

WHAT THE FUCK.

There is no justification whatsoever for that.

 

[Jenga]

Oakland police toss a flashbang into a crowd helping an injured person.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqNOPZLw03Q&feature=youtu.be

WHAT THE FUCK.

There is no justification whatsoever for that.

just like counter strike

 

[Angry Fork]

man you people have gotten personal lately

relax and smoke a bowl or something

Just tired of retarded trolling assholes. I see Manos as the guy in a suit at the Chrysler building looking down at the protestors drinking champagne and making jokes about it with some old guys at the board meeting room.

Oakland police toss a flashbang into a crowd helping an injured person.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqNOPZLw03Q&feature=youtu.be

WHAT THE FUCK.

There is no justification whatsoever for that.

Nah it's justified. Manos is going to look as hard as he can in the video for any protestor that might've said something wrong, at a too high volume level. Or maybe thrown a water bottle then police need to assault and cuff everyone. They're covering their face with their shirts they're obviously HIDING SOMETHING. That means they're criminals, GET EM BOYS.

They're just doing their job trying to protect the citizens, and stuff.

 

[Meadows]

Oakland police toss a flashbang into a crowd helping an injured person.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqNOPZLw03Q&feature=youtu.be

WHAT THE FUCK.

There is no justification whatsoever for that.

yeah that's fucked up

 

[Esch]

Oakland police toss a flashbang into a crowd helping an injured person.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqNOPZLw03Q&feature=youtu.be

WHAT THE FUCK.

There is no justification whatsoever for that.

tsk tsk, it's because they were squatting together

 

[empty vessel]

Sure. Occupy Oakland claims it was peaceful.

But those are just the words of citizens. What does the State say?

 

[mikeybwright]

Oakland police toss a flashbang into a crowd helping an injured person.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqNOPZLw03Q&feature=youtu.be

WHAT THE FUCK.

There is no justification whatsoever for that.

This will fuel the fire for quite a while...excellent.

 

[travisbickle]

In the wise words of Manos:

"I'm going to stop posting here..." (paraphrasing)

Someone is going to be killed in the coming weeks of these protests and I don't want to get caught up in an argument on here about the validity of the actions of the perpetrators.

Good luck to the people on GAF involved in the protests.

 

[Esch]

The rich have convinced us the sole virtue of living is to be rich. They've caused self doubt and loathing in the rest of us that through the nature of the structure of the machine that binds us all would be impossible to be anything otherwise. There will always be those that are rich and those are poor - but to cause the poor to hate themselves for been poor - to blame themselves for been poor - to cause us to believe that because we are poor we are unworthy as people - to cause us to sow hate and distrust among each other - that is their ultimate victory, even as they laugh at our servility and self wallowing hatred.

People are working harder - each of us are becoming more productive. In large part due to changes in organization and technology - but also because we are literally been driven to work harder. The idea that it is now standard for both husband and wife to work to support the household - that 8 hour days are now short work days is proof positive of that much. Our education levels are higher than ever.

But despite the massive gains in productivity, despite us providing more and more of our time and lives to the machines of corporation - we fail to be commensurately compensated. After factoring for work productivity and work time increases, we are actually been paid less; adjusted for real dollar terms.

Moreover, the critical elements of living - a shelter overhead, the education that makes us more informed and better people now cost more than ever - far outstripping the rate of overall inflation.

We might have better TVs, and smartphones. But it's cost us our families, our homes and our environments to get them. For us to continue hating ourselves on the basis of our lack of wealth - to continue conflating wealth with virtue, we've become as plague to the planet and to ourselves.

Great post and i agree even as someone who grew up with silver spoon in mouth.

 

[Meadows]

This will fuel the fire for quite a while...excellent.

I thought these were anti-banking protests not anti-police protests?

Why is this good? Surely it shifts people's attention away from the real goal of policy change.

 

[Puddles]

Wow that flashbang video is disgusting.

 

[Deku]

I thought these were anti-banking protests not anti-police protests?

Why is this good? Surely it shifts people's attention away from the real goal of policy change.

There's a subset of protesters and sympathizers who want confrontation and to emulate the violent scenes they see in the Arab spring? They won't come right out and admit it but they go up right to the line. If you follow these threads, there's a pattern of enthusiasm or excitement when the police does something stupid.

You'll also note that when a protestor or a group of protestors do something stupid, blame is one 'one off-elements' and every attempt is made to insulate the movement, if it is the police, there is an attempt to go up the foodchain and concoct a conspiracy theory. I understand the general suspicion of authority figures, but it's also obvious these kids don't know the first thing about what brutality really is.

 

[mikeybwright]

I thought these were anti-banking protests not anti-police protests?

Why is this good? Surely it shifts people's attention away from the real goal of policy change.

My comment was meant to be sarcastic. Although any attention brought to the 'movement' is good as long as nobody gets hurt (hope the person on the ground is alright).

Guess freedom of assembly is out the window.

 

[jorma]

But those are just the words of citizens. What does the State say?

This is what they have to say:

Q. Did the Police deploy rubber bullets, flash-bag grenades?
A. No, the loud noises that were heard originated from M-80 explosives thrown at Police by protesters. In addition, Police fired approximately four bean bag rounds at protesters to stop them from throwing dangerous objects at the officers.

So the video of officers throwing flashbangs at the crowd is obviously fake.

 

[JzeroT1437]

I haven't been down to the protest in a while--I should go check it out tonight to see what's going on down there.

 

[jorma]

I understand the general suspicion of authority figures, but it's also obvious these kids don't know the first thing about what brutality really is.

Police brutality is still brutality even if it happens in a western country. And i say that as someone who has been exposed to it on numerous occasions. When you realise that they can do pretty much what they want to you without any repercussions, it makes you feel powerless. Feeling powerless leads to anger. And if/when the police are treated like heroes instead of criminals afterwards, it just makes you rage even harder.

That you can be brutalized even harder and even more routinely in other countries changes nothing.

 

[marrec]

I'm not seeing any flashbang grenades in those videos, just Tear Gas.

 

[Esch]

I'm not seeing any flashbang grenades in those videos, just Tear Gas.

Yeah it is a gas grenade, now that i see.

 

[Angry Fork]

I understand the general suspicion of authority figures, but it's also obvious these kids don't know the first thing about what brutality really is.

And poor people in America aren't really poor because it's so much worse in Africa.

etc.

 

[Deku]

And poor people in America aren't really poor because it's so much worse in Africa.

etc.

In a sense that is true 20,000 per capita is easily much wealthier than someone living on 500, but I'm not quibbling that poor people in developed countries need more resources.

You're the one to bring up the false equivalency.

Police brutality is still brutality even if it happens in a western country. And i say that as someone who has been exposed to it on numerous occasions. When you realise that they can do pretty much what they want to you without any repercussions, it makes you feel powerless. Feeling powerless leads to anger. And if/when the police are treated like heroes instead of criminals afterwards, it just makes you rage even harder.

That you can be brutalized even harder and even more routinely in other countries changes nothing.

I agree. But that doesn't really answer my criticism and to say these protestors aren't being treated with kid gloves because of where they were born is disingenous.

The problem with equivalency is that you take something that has a similarity and equate the two as equal, when qualitvatively and even quantitively they are not.

 

[Evlar]

In a sense that is true 20,000 per capita is easily much wealthier than someone living on 500, but I'm not quibbling that poor people in developed countries need more resources.

You're the one to bring up the false equivalency.

To highlight your false equivalency, surely.

 

[Deku]

To highlight your false equivalency, surely.

Which? Short on liners from another poster running interference can be very difficult to interpret.

 

[Evlar]

Which? Short on liners from another poster running interference can be very difficult to interpret.

This one right here:

You'll also note that when a protestor or a group of protestors do something stupid, blame is one 'one off-elements' and every attempt is made to insulate the movement, if it is the police, there is an attempt to go up the foodchain and concoct a conspiracy theory. I understand the general suspicion of authority figures, but it's also obvious these kids don't know the first thing about what brutality really is.

This and "these kids don't know the first thing about what poverty really is" seem to plainly be of the same kind.

 

[CHEEZMO™]

Except it isn't funny. Manos is a loathsome cunt that trolls any way he can because he can't stand the sight of liberals or anyone who isn't a gun toting conservative. There is no counter point to the bullshit that's been going on in this country.

Mano's "counter points" amount to "lol hippies, lol get a job, bootstraps, damn protestors are blocking traffic they should be shot, WHY AREN'T THEY BOWING TO AUTHORITY LIKE THEY SHOULD, oh god these protestors they should be thanking police every waking moment of the day for not beating them, these people have no clue about the real world damn losers, look at these peaceful protestors they're exactly the same as the london riots i'm going to find whatever possible negative story about them and try to equate them, these youngsters don't know how good they have it, back in my day I started up my own company at the age of 9 and hired 12 workers under my belt anyone can do the same just work hard, stop being lazy these protestors are a bunch of lazy smelly assholes they want handouts, everyone wants free money shit if you get sick you should die shouldn't have gotten sick next time don't go near sick people be responsible" BLA BLA BLA

Then he grabs any possible negative string he can find against protestors and tries to put up false equivalency between them and some other much worse event that's happened (equating 9/11 truth movement to holocaust deniers as one example). He's neogaf's own Rush Limbaugh. Not only that but the poster child for totalitarianism as far as I'm concerned and fuck anyone who defends him and his shallow, baseless, retarded, one liner 'haha' arguments.

 

[Angry Fork]

In a sense that is true 20,000 per capita is easily much wealthier than someone living on 500, but I'm not quibbling that poor people in developed countries need more resources.

You're the one to bring up the false equivalency.



I agree. But that doesn't really answer my criticism and to say these protestors aren't being treated with kid gloves because of where they were born is disingenous.

The problem with equivalency is that you take something that has a similarity and equate the two as equal, when qualitvatively and even quantitively they are not.

Is throwing a flash bang into a crowd of protestors trying to help someone brutality or not?

If it is there's no argument, if it isn't then I have to wonder what you'd be okay with the police doing to unarmed civilians in the name of ...what? What are they protecting again?

 

[Something Wicked]

In a sense that is true 20,000 per capita is easily much wealthier than someone living on 500, but I'm not quibbling that poor people in developed countries need more resources.

You're the one to bring up the false equivalency.

And when you factor in purchasing power parity, that $20k goes a lot further in the US than in the UK, France, Germany, Canada or Japan.

 

[Deku]

This one right here:

This and "these kids don't know the first thing about what poverty really is" seem to plainly be of the same kind.

That's not an equivalency. Just a statement of fact and Jorma dealt with that issue already, see my reply above.

An attempt at Equivalency would be posters trying to equate these protests to the Arab spring.

 

[Evlar]

That's not an equivalency. Just a statement of fact.

Anattempt at Equivalency would be posters trying to equate these protests to the Arab spring.

It is not a statement of fact. It is a denial of authenticity.

Or, perhaps more precisely, denial of the opportunity to be authentic.

 

[Akkad]

Damn, I need a dictionary to read this topic.

 

[jorma]

That's not an equivalency. Just a statement of fact and Jorma dealt with that issue already, see my reply above.

An attempt at Equivalency would be posters trying to equate these protests to the Arab spring.

My reply did come about because it did sound like you were trying to downplay western police brutality because it's even worse in Syria. Now i understand that this was not your intention, but i'm not quite sure what your point is. Why is it clear that these kids don't know what brutality really is?

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Oakland police toss a flashbang into a crowd helping an injured person.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqNOPZLw03Q&feature=youtu.be

WHAT THE FUCK.

There is no justification whatsoever for that.

I see lots of dumbasses with covered faces trying to pick the earlier rounds out and trying to toss them back on the officers earlier in the video...like what you often saw during the G8 riots and in Vancouver.

I don't see the problem with the use of less than lethal rounds for crowd control. That is there purpose after all.

More importantly the "FLASHBANG" looks far more like a tear gas shot, if so than it's totally consistent with what has been said so far.

 

[Zenith]

I don't see the problem with the use of less than lethal rounds for crowd control. That is there purpose after all.

So every time you see a crowd you run towards them with pepper spray? How dare they gather in more than groups of 5!

 

[empty vessel]

So every time you see a crowd you run towards them with pepper spray? How dare they gather in more than groups of 5!

Seriously. Tear gas was made for peaceable assemblies! I mean, isn't that in the constitution?

 

[Enron]

If they are going to be removed from whatever area they are occupying this is how it should be done. Not the way it is currently going down in Oakland

Mayor Kasim Reed gets some major points for handling this. Although there was never any real threat of violence - the Occupy Atlanta protesters were by and large college students, as opposed to actual affected angry protesters (the ones that lost their homes, 401ks, etc etc) so they lacked the sufficient rage. When the cops came they shouted but cooperated mostly.

To the poster asking about the "7th" - that's when Mayor Reed gave them until to clear out the park, but he rescinded that order after they pissed him off with that concert event that they didn't submit a crowd control plan for, and didn't get any on-site security/emergency services for and shouted down his staffers during a meeting/press conference at the park. Local area small businessmen and residents started pressing him to do something as the Occupiers became more and more of a nuisance as well.

 

[Deku]

My reply did come about because it did sound like you were trying to downplay western police brutality because it's even worse in Syria. Now i understand that this was not your intention, but i'm not quite sure what your point is.

Syria is an extreme example. The army is just massacering people there. There's a broad range in between as well and things aren't even close to that.

I think it's a fair comment when the sympathizers and people who want confrontation immediately jump the gun to evoke scenes that is not befitting what is actually happening on the group.

Why is it clear that these kids don't know what brutality really is?

There are classes on protests and one of things they teach is essentially how to get arrested which include what I euphemistically call how to act like an NBA player during the playoffs.

But that's really secondary, I think it's hard to argue against the fact there are elements in the protests who want see any escalation as a good thing. It's part of my broader point that the attempt to tie individual incidents into a narrative over brutality but only if it suits them. ie: individual acts of stupidity by protestors are treated as individual acts.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

So every time you see a crowd you run towards them with pepper spray? How dare they gather in more than groups of 5!

Who knows, but it's good to see that you think its teargas vs a flasgbang.

 

[DGRE]

Has this been posted?

In the least surprising development in modern political history, Occupy Wall Street seems to be better at spending your money than they are maintaining hygiene. As evidence, I present their first demand:

Jobs for ALL – A Massive Public Works and Public Service Program

We demand a massive public works and public service program with direct government employment at prevailing (union) wages paid for by taxing the rich and corporations, by immediately ending all of America’s wars, and by ending all aid to authoritarian regimes to create 25 million new jobs to:

Expand education: cut class sizes and provide free university for all;
Expand healthcare and provide free healthcare for all (single payer system);
Build housing, guarantee decent housing for all;
Expand mass transit, provided for free;
Rebuild the infrastructure—bridges, flood control, roads;
Research and implement clean energy alternatives; and
Clean up the environment.
These jobs are to be open to all, regardless of documentation/immigration status or criminal record.

After sifting through the standard ultra-progressive nonsense, one can pull out some interesting numbers. To pay for 25 million jobs at the median union salary, you’re going to have to come up with about $1.194 trillion. That is about 25% more than the entire income tax currently brings in. It also would add more than 1/3rd to our already completely bloated budget.

To put it another way, the very first proposal from Occupy Wall Street would cost around 50% more than Medicare and Medicaid combined, which is currently our largest expense.

I can't stand Beck but have these numbers really been thought through?

 

[Chichikov]

Seriously. Tear gas was made for peaceable assemblies! I mean, isn't that in the constitution?

Hey now, "the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances" doesn't mean they have the right to peacefully assemble and petition the Government for redress of grievances, it might looks like it to the untrained eye, but a real true originalist will tell you it's actually talks about corporate spending.

Has this been posted?

Why would anyone post such drivel?

I can't stand Beck but have these numbers really been thought through?

Yes, these number were really thought through.
But they don't meant to be accurate, they're meant to scare poor people into acting against their immediate economical interest.
I mean, do I really need to articulate how stupid his implied assumption that those 25mil jobs are going to be union jobs payed by federal tax dollars?
Like, really?

If you really can't stand him, you should've gone with your instincts.

 

[Angry Fork]

Manos is a good debater. I don't think resorting to calling him or anyone a fascit as the frustrated Fortified Concept has done multiple times enhances your position. It makes you look, well, frustrated.

Who knows, but it's good to see that you think its teargas vs a flasgbang.

Scholarly debate.

When he's wrong he either hides or quips a 1 liner, like most conservatives.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Scholarly debate.

When he's wrong he either hides or quips a 1 liner, like most conservatives.

You're evidence that it was a flash bang device vs teargas is...?

 

[Puddles]

Whether it was teargas or not, it's indefensible to toss that into a group of people who are trying to help a fallen protester to his/her feet.

 

[Angry Fork]

You're evidence that it was a flash bang device vs teargas is...?

Not what's being debated. Neither are applicable in the situation.

 

[ggnoobIGN]

When he's wrong he either hides or quips a 1 liner, like most conservatives.

...

 

[RJT]

Yes, these number were really thought through.
But they don't meant to be accurate, they're meant to scare poor people into acting against their immediate economical interest.
I mean, do I really need to articulate how stupid his implied assumption that those 25mil jobs are going to be union jobs payed by federal tax dollars?
Like, really?

If you really can't stand him, you should've gone with your instincts.

Considering the tested multpliers of recent similar programs were between 0.5 and 2, that's still a lot of money to spend...

(the study I'm referring to can be found here)

 

[Chichikov]

You're evidence that it was a flash bang device vs teargas is...?

I'm not sure why it would matter all that much (and if you ever had the displeasure of breathing tear gas, I'm guessing neither would you), but I have (sadly) deployed both gas grenades and flashbangs (and I was also on the receiving end of those), and this doesn't sound like any tear gas grenade I've ever seen.
Now I wouldn't claim to know every single ordnance in the world, but considering that -

• we had mostly american technology
• this looks and sound exactly like a flashbang
• I can't think of a reason why a gas grenade would make that type of noise

I'm going to say with a reasonable amount of certainty that it's a flashbang.

Now let me ask you a counter question -
Why do you doubt it's a flashbang?
Like, what reason, outside your weird desire to see these demonstrations fail (that I really can't understand) do you have to even have an opinion about that?

Considering the tested multpliers of recent similar programs were between 0.5 and 2, that's still a lot of money to spend...

(the study I'm referring to can be found here)

I'm not sure how that's a reply to what I wrote.
Though can I ask you a quick question?
Do you believe those things or not?
I mean, I would gladly engage with a discussion with you on the subject, but if this is just random thing you saw on the internet and you think it's bullshit, I'll save my time, I got better things to do than argue with Glenn Beck in absentia.

 

[marrec]

I'm not sure why it would matter all that much (and if you ever had the displeasure of breathing tear gas, I'm guessing neither would you), but I have (sadly) deployed both gas grenades and flashbangs (and I was also on the receiving end of those), and this doesn't sound like any tear gas grenade I've ever seen.
Now I wouldn't claim to know every single ordnance in the world, but considering that -

• we had mostly american technology
• this looks and sound exactly like a flashbang
• I can't think of a reason why a gas grenade would make that type of noise

I'm going to say with a reasonable amount of certainty that it's a flashbang.

Now let me ask you a counter question -
Why do you doubt it's a flashbang?
Like, what reason, outside your weird desire to see these demonstrations fail (that I really can't understand) do you have to even have an opinion about that?


I'm not sure how that's a reply to what I wrote.
Though can I ask you a quick question?
Do you believe those things or not?
I mean, I would gladly engage with a discussion with you on the subject, but if this is just random thing you saw on the internet and you think it's bullshit, I'll save my time, I got better things to do than argue with Glenn Beck in absentia.

As someone who's played with Tear Gas before (I haven't touched a flashbang) it looks like your normal Tear Gas can popping. I'd put down money on it in fact. This is coming from a guy who thinks Manos is really one of those Charicature Republican Elepnants from the political cartoons, banging away at his keyboard in the most stereotypical rightwing way.

The cans that I've thrown look just like that when they're getting ready to pop.

 

[minus_273]

I just want to say that this is my favorite gaf thread. I am really happy the OWS movement exists.

The most beautiful thing about this thread is the bunch of angry/lazy/rich hippies in a fishbowl who think they are actually making a difference in the world. the futile rants and frustration as you encounter the real world is hilarious. keep posting, please!

 

[Chichikov]

As someone who's played with Tear Gas before (I haven't touched a flashbang) it looks like your normal Tear Gas can popping. I'd put down money on it in fact. This is coming from a guy who thinks Manos is really one of those Charicature Republican Elepnants from the political cartoons, banging away at his keyboard in the most stereotypical rightwing way.

The cans that I've thrown look just like that when they're getting ready to pop.

Really?
The ones we had looked pretty much like a smoke grenade (like here), I can't even imagine why you'd want it to explode like this (as it disperse the smoke).
But again, I could be wrong about that.
Out of curiously, what type of grenades were you playing with?
(not doubting you, just trying to educate myself, if I'm dead wrong about the ordnance law enforcement use in this country, I would like to avoid making myself look like a fool in the future).

p.s.
Are we talking about the same video?
I'm talking about this one, around the 40 seconds.