Karma Kramer
Banned
Bulbo Urethral Baggins said:
What's sad is your ability to ignore the substance of the video and laugh it off because of something else that is irrelevant.
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Occupy Wall St - Occupy Everywhere, Occupy Together!
- Thread starter magicstop
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What's sad is your ability to ignore the substance of the video and laugh it off because of something else that is irrelevant.
rohlfinator
Member
My cousin posted something similar on Facebook recently and it's an idiotic premise imo.
The implication, I guess, is that we are supposed to put up with an injustice because some other injustice is greater? That is ridiculous on its face and can be used to justify almost anything.
(Also, the US makes up more than 1% of the world population, so... yeah.)
smokeandmirrors
Banned
rohlfinator said:
It's also somewhat of a strawman. "Hey look! You guys have it good compared to those guys. Now get back to work and stop asking questions."
Wazzim said:
This has been going on so long it's not even vilified anymore. It's like someone's cooking in the kitchen while their family is being murdered in the living room and the person in kitchen pretends not to notice anything when they come out and see the end result. How much longer is this shit going to continue?
Here's what happened @ my school today
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buovLQ9qyWQ&feature=youtu.be
Context - People were asked to move/remove tents by police. They were camping in front of Berkeley's main Sproul Hall. They refused. Police take action.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buovLQ9qyWQ&feature=youtu.be
Context - People were asked to move/remove tents by police. They were camping in front of Berkeley's main Sproul Hall. They refused. Police take action.
First of all, I'd like to say the following about (and to) the Occupy movement:
Despite intentions to do good in this world, merely raising your fist in opposition of "the man", who has now been renamed "the 1%", doesn't DO anything. Being mad isn't enough. Especially when "the 1%" isn't the problem, it's merely the symptom we can vilify.
This is why so many people, especially baby boomers, want no part in it: anyone who recalls the 60s and early 70s vividly already knows what just being in opposition without a clear end-game does.
It is energy without focus.
The 1% was NEVER the problem, anyways. In fact, I feel BAD for the 1% being vilified for merely living up to a societal imperative.
WE ARE THE PROBLEM.
We perpetuate society. At ALL levels.
Institutional classism permeates us, and is never more present than with the Occupy movement, making demons out of the very people who are tasked with maintaining a system we all have so much faith in. In the example of Occupy's villain of choice, the 1% they hate tests and sacrifices their humanity on a daily basis, because it's required of them to prop the system up that causes this social inequality. Why are we mad at them when they make more sacrifice than we ever have to support a societal system we all believed in and supported? They support the will of the people, and this is our will, because we didn't ask for anything else. We WANTED THE WORLD THIS WAY.
We're taught very early on that you can't envision something better for the world on a grand scale, so you fight the imaginary demons within it.
Everyone, at EVERY LEVEL, refuses to let go of their classist nature. We hang onto capitalism and democracy because we feel that, if we're lucky, we CAN game the system and finally have power, influence and prestige to lord over others or the world at large.
It's a losing system for everyone, from the top to the bottom. No good, no evil. Just the disfigurement of human well-being that we all willingly subject ourselves to, in the name of the status quo so we can point fingers instead of deal with the causes of the problems we hate.
We all want to climb higher on the ladder, to achieve, not for the sake of the good it does for ourselves or others, but what we gain from it: a sense of superiority over someone or something else.
The poor hate the rich and vilify them as unfeeling and heartless, therefore showing a classist superiority in and of itself: well, I've not been corrupted, I'm a "PURE" human being. But nothing is "pure" in a sick society. The rich have simply gamed the system better than you ever could. But since that's what we ALL want, why would you fault someone for their success in doing so? And if playing this game wasn't what you wanted, WHY ARE YOU STILL PLAYING IT?!
It goes right into everyday life... we have even grown to use our classism as a shield for the horrible things we endure. We teach children to think they're better than the people who torment them. Racism, homophobia, misogyny, ageism, xenophobia... it's all just classism wearing different faces. It indoctrinates us into this larger horrible world where we're all enemies because we're all clawing at each other on the way up the golden ladder.
This sick and destructive pursuit is what drives us not to let go of it.
It is the institutional classism and our failure to question it that befouls us. And it all begins and ends with money.
I propose that the only way we can stop society dead without violent upheaval is to go take out all our money in unison, then burn it in effigy.
Not to say that money is the root of the problem... but it's what keeps it going.
No, the root of the problem is the society we made and institutionalized that put a value on money higher than human well-being. Want something better for yourself? It'll cost you.
NOTHING man-made should EVER be placed higher than our well-being, nor should it be a requirement to obtain it.
We're taught not to question certain things. But the one we NEVER question is society. Because you're a "small part" of it. We're brought into society and told "HANDS OFF, or you'll break it!" You don't fix society, you "work within it".
You play within society's rules, you don't change them. Even when those rules make it so we ALL lose. Our societal model gets the least amount of discourse out of any other belief system in the world.
These protests will do nothing, because all they do is show an inequality in a system that we ALL LET HAPPEN. Don't be mad at someone "winning" the game, because even when they win, they still lose.
No, hate the game that makes sure it stays that way.
Despite intentions to do good in this world, merely raising your fist in opposition of "the man", who has now been renamed "the 1%", doesn't DO anything. Being mad isn't enough. Especially when "the 1%" isn't the problem, it's merely the symptom we can vilify.
This is why so many people, especially baby boomers, want no part in it: anyone who recalls the 60s and early 70s vividly already knows what just being in opposition without a clear end-game does.
It is energy without focus.
The 1% was NEVER the problem, anyways. In fact, I feel BAD for the 1% being vilified for merely living up to a societal imperative.
WE ARE THE PROBLEM.
We perpetuate society. At ALL levels.
Institutional classism permeates us, and is never more present than with the Occupy movement, making demons out of the very people who are tasked with maintaining a system we all have so much faith in. In the example of Occupy's villain of choice, the 1% they hate tests and sacrifices their humanity on a daily basis, because it's required of them to prop the system up that causes this social inequality. Why are we mad at them when they make more sacrifice than we ever have to support a societal system we all believed in and supported? They support the will of the people, and this is our will, because we didn't ask for anything else. We WANTED THE WORLD THIS WAY.
We're taught very early on that you can't envision something better for the world on a grand scale, so you fight the imaginary demons within it.
Everyone, at EVERY LEVEL, refuses to let go of their classist nature. We hang onto capitalism and democracy because we feel that, if we're lucky, we CAN game the system and finally have power, influence and prestige to lord over others or the world at large.
It's a losing system for everyone, from the top to the bottom. No good, no evil. Just the disfigurement of human well-being that we all willingly subject ourselves to, in the name of the status quo so we can point fingers instead of deal with the causes of the problems we hate.
We all want to climb higher on the ladder, to achieve, not for the sake of the good it does for ourselves or others, but what we gain from it: a sense of superiority over someone or something else.
The poor hate the rich and vilify them as unfeeling and heartless, therefore showing a classist superiority in and of itself: well, I've not been corrupted, I'm a "PURE" human being. But nothing is "pure" in a sick society. The rich have simply gamed the system better than you ever could. But since that's what we ALL want, why would you fault someone for their success in doing so? And if playing this game wasn't what you wanted, WHY ARE YOU STILL PLAYING IT?!
It goes right into everyday life... we have even grown to use our classism as a shield for the horrible things we endure. We teach children to think they're better than the people who torment them. Racism, homophobia, misogyny, ageism, xenophobia... it's all just classism wearing different faces. It indoctrinates us into this larger horrible world where we're all enemies because we're all clawing at each other on the way up the golden ladder.
This sick and destructive pursuit is what drives us not to let go of it.
It is the institutional classism and our failure to question it that befouls us. And it all begins and ends with money.
I propose that the only way we can stop society dead without violent upheaval is to go take out all our money in unison, then burn it in effigy.
Not to say that money is the root of the problem... but it's what keeps it going.
No, the root of the problem is the society we made and institutionalized that put a value on money higher than human well-being. Want something better for yourself? It'll cost you.
NOTHING man-made should EVER be placed higher than our well-being, nor should it be a requirement to obtain it.
We're taught not to question certain things. But the one we NEVER question is society. Because you're a "small part" of it. We're brought into society and told "HANDS OFF, or you'll break it!" You don't fix society, you "work within it".
You play within society's rules, you don't change them. Even when those rules make it so we ALL lose. Our societal model gets the least amount of discourse out of any other belief system in the world.
These protests will do nothing, because all they do is show an inequality in a system that we ALL LET HAPPEN. Don't be mad at someone "winning" the game, because even when they win, they still lose.
No, hate the game that makes sure it stays that way.
Ether_Snake
å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®
So if mothers and their kids were protesting something, and put up tents, the police would react in the same manner, right?
Ether_Snake
å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®
Terrell said:
Yeah but I'm saying if the movement was "moms and kids for free education!" or some such.
Teargas and all that would probably not be the response.
The police is biased, they enjoy beating up the people from OWS.
NullPointer
Member
Speak for yourself. I don't give one solitary fuck for your ladders, or take any pride in shucking my fellow man out of a buck.Terrell said:
I don't for a second believe I exist here, on this living world that orbits a giant fireball through the vastness of the cosmos just to perpetuate an economic system, much less to make mine at the expense of others. We're in this together and we're capable of so god damned much more than we're doing now.
They get their orders from commissioners who are appointed by elected officials. If elected officials are bought, then so to are commissioners, or they'll be replaced by people who tow the line. And people sacrifice their humanity for prestige at every turn, every day.Ether_Snake said:
Terrell said:
I'm sorry, are you actually suggesting the protest movements of the 60s and early 70s had no positive outcomes?
As for the rest of your post, I think it'd fit in well as a speech to a GA at an Occupy camp, so I'm not sure what your issue with Occupy is. What these people are attempting to do is to literally exclude themselves from the society you claim they propagate. That's why these are "occupations," because they are essentially an attempt at third-way-ism (*) on a grand scale, whether for better or worse.
(*) Here I mean an entirely separate third way, not third-way as political centrism.
You don't exist merely to perpetuate an economic system. But you do it anyways. We all do it. Because we have no option BUT to do it. And it erodes our day to day life in imperceptible ways.NullPointer said:
Cuz "hippie" or "flower child" is a term of endearment nowadays, isn't it?maharg said:
The protests of the baby boom set the tone for all others that followed it. If it wasn't damaging to society that most look at protests against injustice as self-entitled bitch-fests, I dunno what to tell you.
Because there's no responsibility taken for the fact that we LET this happen. It's "the 1%" that are to blame. And most Occupy protests speak of even wealth distribution, which equates to "I want my piece of the pie so I can get a fair shake at being a success". They're mad because the world's inequality finally hit THEM. Never mind the poor that were already there long before they were. There's no wake up call, it's just lashing out at people that represent a symptom of the larger problem, but not the actual problem itself.maharg said:
NullPointer
Member
That I'm part of a system at work, yes I get that. But I do not seek to "get mine", or to look down upon others, or to keep up with Jones' even though that's what our system would seem to be driving at. You can swim in the waters without being a fish.Terrell said:
rohlfinator
Member
Many of them are also angry about the exploitation of poorer nations by multinational corporations.Slavik81 said:
And for those who are concerned about world poverty, having the majority of our nation's wealth tied up in a tiny segment of the population does nothing to solve that problem. Sure there are a handful of philanthropists like Bill Gates who are making a real difference, but by and large that money is getting funneled back into companies who would rather drive American labor rights down to a third-world level than bring the third-world rights into parity with ours.
Finally, I'm betting that many of the "what about the poor people in Africa" folks are the same people who would flip their shit if we decided to raise taxes so we could spend more on foreign aid.
Do you see any "success" here? Please, show it to me. Cuz I don't see it.maharg said:
Thank you for proving my point from my previous post.NullPointer said:
Sure it hasn't gotten to you? Not even the tiniest bit?
As long as you're in the water, if you're not a fish, you gotta learn to breathe like one.
Um. Are you suggesting that the end to jim crow laws wasn't success? Or that they weren't the aims of the people who were protesting in the 60s? Or that withdrawal from Vietnam wasn't their goal?
I'm pretty sure they defined those things as success, whether you'd prefer segregated drinking fountains or not.
I'm pretty sure they defined those things as success, whether you'd prefer segregated drinking fountains or not.
Oh I see. So you're asking me to find measurable success to a movement that's approximately 1 or 2 months old as compared to a movement that lasted more than a decade and has had 40 years since it ended to be analyzed for its consequences?
Sure. That sounds easy. Just give me 15 years and I'll get back to you.
Sure. That sounds easy. Just give me 15 years and I'll get back to you.
When people take actions against the authority, the authority will fight their teeth to not let this happen. Not shocked at all at these police violence videos.
Here's the story:
In China you can actually go protest against corporations and banks, and sometimes you can succeed (see the recent protests against factory pollution). Why? Because corporations are run by the government and they are supposed to be the puppet. When the puppet gets hurt, the puppet master usually just wants to calm things down. But if you go directly against the puppet master, aka the government, what will happen? Totally different outcome.
Swap the position of government and corporation then you get the picture of the US and part of the Europe.
So here's the conclusion:
This world is always run by a small group of elites. They have different names and they always do the same things. You Americans didn't notice it 40 30 years ago because you just won the lottery, aka beat the Soviet in cold war. You were rich and you were the strongest and everybody listened to you. The elites behind your government were always there but back then when everybody was rich nobody cared about it. Now the global competition is up and your influence is fading and your wealth is being taken away slowly you guys finally notice the corruption, which unfortunately has been in the system since day one.
As for the OWS:
They are good people and they are doing the right thing: bring up the voice and try to change the rules. Too bad they are not going to change the rules. This is not 1860 this is 2011, whoever wins the media wins the game. Whoever has the deepest pocket wins the media. Your propaganda machine has convinced the middle 60% of people that the problem is caused by the low 30% of people because they don't pay enough tax and the government should shrink. Then the elites behind your propaganda machine has convinced the 10% of that 30% people (aka, cops) that if they follow the rules and put those 20% in line then everything will be fine. Then you get the youtube link above.
Here's the story:
In China you can actually go protest against corporations and banks, and sometimes you can succeed (see the recent protests against factory pollution). Why? Because corporations are run by the government and they are supposed to be the puppet. When the puppet gets hurt, the puppet master usually just wants to calm things down. But if you go directly against the puppet master, aka the government, what will happen? Totally different outcome.
Swap the position of government and corporation then you get the picture of the US and part of the Europe.
So here's the conclusion:
This world is always run by a small group of elites. They have different names and they always do the same things. You Americans didn't notice it 40 30 years ago because you just won the lottery, aka beat the Soviet in cold war. You were rich and you were the strongest and everybody listened to you. The elites behind your government were always there but back then when everybody was rich nobody cared about it. Now the global competition is up and your influence is fading and your wealth is being taken away slowly you guys finally notice the corruption, which unfortunately has been in the system since day one.
As for the OWS:
They are good people and they are doing the right thing: bring up the voice and try to change the rules. Too bad they are not going to change the rules. This is not 1860 this is 2011, whoever wins the media wins the game. Whoever has the deepest pocket wins the media. Your propaganda machine has convinced the middle 60% of people that the problem is caused by the low 30% of people because they don't pay enough tax and the government should shrink. Then the elites behind your propaganda machine has convinced the 10% of that 30% people (aka, cops) that if they follow the rules and put those 20% in line then everything will be fine. Then you get the youtube link above.
Even in the beginning, the movements of the 60s and 70s had minor successes. Show me an equivalent for the time period.maharg said:
It'd be best not to make me seem like an ignorant fool when I have 2 people who were PART of the generation and part of those very protests sitting literally RIGHT BEHIND ME, who have already given me the response to my request.
empty vessel
Member
bill gonorrhea said:
The premise of the argument being deconstructed is more easily defeated than by looking at global income data. The movement is about how the gains of the American economy are distributed to Americans. It is concerned with how slices of the American economic pie are internally divided. 99% of Americans can still be rich relative to the rest of the world while still getting shafted by the top 1% of Americans. While OWS is in solidarity with people in the rest of the world who likewise suffer inequitable slicing of their own pies from their own domestic economic elites (and ours), equitably distributing the entire world's income is not what the movement is about. While ideal, that's a project for the distant future.
Fusion Pizza
Member
Occupy UC Berkely is being confronted by cops in riot gear, earlier in the day they were attacked with batons while they were taking tents
Earlier today
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=buovLQ9qyWQ
Live Stream outside Sprouly Hall
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/j%27tao%27s-webcam-in-cyberspace%21%21%21#utm_campaign=t.co&utm_source=316210&utm_medium=social
I'm considering going down.
EDIT
LIVE View from ABC 7 news helicopter
http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/livenow?id=8425222
Earlier today
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=buovLQ9qyWQ
Live Stream outside Sprouly Hall
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/j%27tao%27s-webcam-in-cyberspace%21%21%21#utm_campaign=t.co&utm_source=316210&utm_medium=social
I'm considering going down.
EDIT
LIVE View from ABC 7 news helicopter
http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/livenow?id=8425222
1. Civil rights don't really matter to a country's economy progress. They matter to joe average's life but they don't matter to bankers life. The elites simply don't care. Protests for civil rights are purely between the puppet and the people, and the elites only want to settle it down so everybody can get back to work.
2. Do you know what you were fighting against in Vietnam? Northern Vietnamese, and the whole supply line of China and Russia, 2 countries with powerful central government that can utilize all the resources they have. The elites knew you were not going to win unless their pocket started to bleed, so they backed down. What about the other anti-war protest, aka, Iraq war protest? 8 years later and your army is still there.
2. Do you know what you were fighting against in Vietnam? Northern Vietnamese, and the whole supply line of China and Russia, 2 countries with powerful central government that can utilize all the resources they have. The elites knew you were not going to win unless their pocket started to bleed, so they backed down. What about the other anti-war protest, aka, Iraq war protest? 8 years later and your army is still there.
Terrell said:
They have had minor successes. They are changing the political tone for the richest country on the face of the Earth. What exactly do you expect in six weeks time? We're talking about institutions that have dug their heels so far deep into the political tapestry and have been doing so for over 100 years. You really think that these things are going to change overnight? I don't know if the OWS movement will ultimately be successful but I'm not going to judge them as failing when they haven't really gotten started yet.
that is some sad shit.K2Valor said:
i get the whole thing about the police asking them to leave, and the students refusing to do so. police are justified to take action if they are doing something illegal. but not the type of action that was shown. in no way should police be beating and jabbing anyone with batons that way. how does that help the situation at all?
if i were one of the students it would be very hard for me not to take action of my own. respect to those who did not resort to violence back towards the cops.
MrGame&Watch
Member
A lot of people on the right blame the left for losing vietnam.maharg said:
MrGame&Watch said:
Not really relevant to the argument. Or rather proof of the point, I guess. It was an achievement of the protest movements of the 60s and 70s whether that was a good thing or a bad thing.
Worth noting, btw, that it was Democrat presidents (Kennedy and then LBJ) who escalated involvement in Vietnam to begin with.
K2Valor said:
disgusting. the ease with which the police all over the world resorts to violence is mindboggling. That cop in the middle just started beating a girl up completely unprovoked, triggering all the other cops into violence mode. All without a single agressive move from the students.
Big brave fucking cunts.
empty vessel
Member
Wazzim said:
Stop Vietnam from exercising national independence would be a more accurate way to put it. Imperial powers were in Vietnam long before communism became the expression of its national independence. Control is the name of the game.
Just watched the video. Holy fucking shit, how is that legal, at all? Because they're cops? How do they justify hurting people that are sitting there peacefully. I don't get how anyone could be against this protest.. lots of shit needs to fucking change. The sad part is it would benefit these same cops too.
Not sure this has been posted about Wall Street Wankers, but I've never been so proud to be Irish.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=UrUzKH_A2m8#!
Ireland is the land or writers and poets your know.
EDIT: Just got a chance to watch in full the Berkeley vid. wow. sickening and wrong in sooo many ways. Sorry if my post seemed insensitive at the time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=UrUzKH_A2m8#!
Ireland is the land or writers and poets your know.
EDIT: Just got a chance to watch in full the Berkeley vid. wow. sickening and wrong in sooo many ways. Sorry if my post seemed insensitive at the time.
Karma Kramer
Banned
Fusebox said:
Colbert did a nice bit on this last night
But other than that, haven't seen anything.
Karma Kramer
Banned
Fusebox said:
The official report from AP was the police did some "nudging" lol...
Something Wicked
Member
Apparently, two people were killed in separate shooting incidents within the Occupy tents of Oakland and Burlington, VT last night.
http://www.insidebayarea.com/top-stories/ci_19314945
http://www.wcax.com/story/16014342/chaos-erupts-in-burlingtons-occupy-vermont-camp
http://www.insidebayarea.com/top-stories/ci_19314945
http://www.wcax.com/story/16014342/chaos-erupts-in-burlingtons-occupy-vermont-camp
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