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Occupy Wall St - Occupy Everywhere, Occupy Together!
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empty vessel
Member
A nice Democracy Now piece on Occupy Minnesota and its Occupy Homes project to fill vacant homes and/or protect people from being evicted:
http://www.democracynow.org/2011/11/11/occupy_homes_new_coalition_links_homeowners
http://www.democracynow.org/2011/11/11/occupy_homes_new_coalition_links_homeowners
Is that what they are doing? Is that what they said they were doing or are you assuming? I thought they were just occupying spaces close to where they feel the blame should be placed (ie: wall street).maharg said:
If they are trying to exclude themselves from society then why are they accepting free food from surrounding businesses? Why are they tweeting to anyone at all ever? This movement would make less sense to me (somehow) if what you say is true.
Edit: Also, I feel that the post your quoted make some good points. I find it annoying that only the 1% is blamed for everything that is going on right now. Its a bit silly dont you think? We demand lower prices, we demand affordable food, we demand that everyone be able to buy a house. Things like this dont just happen and they often dont happen in the most moral way. We all had a hand in this. No one pays what they owe. Every year Im sure a pretty large part of the 99% looks for ways to pay less taxes or get more money back. This is something that has been going on since forever. We all look for loop holes. We all look for ways to cheat the system. We all fucked this shit up. The 1% just did a much better job of it.
Brolic Gaoler
formerly Alienshogun
Bad_Boy said:
Hard to tell, but it looks like the students locked arms and "pushed" the police against the buildings. That can't be allowed, since it could result in a lot of injured cops.
http://youtu.be/buovLQ9qyWQ
Is ther eanyway the police officer can get charged with unaggravated assault? Cuz seriously, that's what I'm looking at
Is ther eanyway the police officer can get charged with unaggravated assault? Cuz seriously, that's what I'm looking at
What are they trying to change? Whats the end game? Im just saying the protest is misguided and non-nonsensical. It should be a broader movement not to demand that America be changed but change the way Americans think which will inevitably lead to change. In what ways? Thats a much deeper conversation. But this is just some silly attempt to get bankers arrested and make rich people pay more taxes (I guess... I dont know). This could be SO much more but it isnt. All I see are a bunch of people sleeping in a park holding up signs and beating on drums. I went down there a few weeks ago and I didnt really see the point.maharg said:
- Get a spokesperson to lay out what you want.
- Stop letting everyone talk.
- Actually have a plan that doesnt involve just making signs.
-Try to find a way to intelligently use the system we have in place to get your point across instead of suggesting sweeping fixes to everything at once (or mass arrests of faceless bankers or whatever it is theyre asking for). How about they go around educating voters on the policies of politicians so they are able to make educated votes instead of just thinking "Liberal = Good", "Conservative = bad" and vice versa?
- Or how bout they get Americans to not rock the vote. Thatd be interesting. Take a tactic from Brewsters Millions where Richard Pryor ran on "none of the above" where he made a point that gov't as a whole is useless and needs fixing. As bizarre as it would be, at LEAST they would have something to yell about cohesively.
This is a "I dont like the way things are" protest that many are beginning to not take seriously. Its lazy, stupid, and wont accomplish anything.
empty vessel
Member
.GqueB. said:
It has already accomplished things. That's what protests do, even--perhaps especially--"I don't like the way things are" protests.
Would you say theyre suffering from Obamaccomplishment syndrome (just made that up) where theyre accomplishing things but no one knows about them because they arent making this information clear or easily accessible?empty vessel said:
What have they accomplished that falls within their goals?
makingmusic476
Member
I'm trying to figure out where this is heading.
Initially I was very supportive of these protests, because Washington is broken and corporations are running amok, but it seems like the protests aren't really doing much aside from getting the word out about how broken things are.
There seems to be no focused push for things like campaign finance reform or changing taxes. There's been some murmur about protesting the renewal of Bush's tax cuts on the top 1%, but that's about it.
Is there something I'm missing here?
Initially I was very supportive of these protests, because Washington is broken and corporations are running amok, but it seems like the protests aren't really doing much aside from getting the word out about how broken things are.
There seems to be no focused push for things like campaign finance reform or changing taxes. There's been some murmur about protesting the renewal of Bush's tax cuts on the top 1%, but that's about it.
Is there something I'm missing here?
homegrowndub
Banned
It's all just so disorganized. I can't speak for everyone, but it seems most Americans (mainstream, IMO) just haven't heard of this or just don't care.makingmusic476 said:
empty vessel
Member
.GqueB. said:
They have changed political tone, content, and narrative, and they have and, hopefully will continue to, force the Democratic party to pay attention and look to the left for the first time in, I don't know, twenty years?
Here is Naomi Klein crediting the occupy movement for Obama's decision to delay a decision on the proposed Keystone XL tar sands oil pipeline:
Naomi Klein said:
http://www.democracynow.org/2011/11/11/naomi_klein_obama_delays_keystone_xl
(Klein was protesting the pipeline before the occupy movement ever started, so her attribution of credit is credible.)
And I linked previously to another Democracy Now piece about the occupy movement becoming involved with and successfully preventing foreclosures and evictions of families.
Obviously, nothing revolutionary has happened. But that it is accomplishing things is indisputable, I think.
rohlfinator
Member
I don't buy this premise at all. It's true that people cheat the system at every level, but I know a lot of people who (as far as I can tell) live pretty ethically and "within their means" and are content with their lives without screwing over the system at every chance..GqueB. said:
That doesn't mean we can't aspire for a better society -- food should be affordable. People should be able to own their own homes. Those things are well within the abilities of our country. We shouldn't need to cheat the system to get there.
And even if we assume your premise is true, there's a huge, huge difference between finding a loophole to save $1000 on your taxes, and committing widespread fraud that puts a massive dent in the world economy. I agree that there are some problems at every level, but if we are going to change the system, it would be foolish not to attack the problems in order of egregiousness.
That is indisputable which is why I feel a spokesperson would be helpful. Someone that can lay out what theyve done and what they plan to do. I think even latching on to one thing at a time would help their cause. If all of the occupiers cohesively decided to focus on the housing issues that you mentioned a few posts ago, I feel it would help their cause IMMENSELY. At least then people know what theyre getting behind and can support it.empty vessel said:
People cant support something if they dont know what theyre agreeing to support. As I said, all people see right now are a bunch of people sleeping in a park holding up random signs. America will eventually stop caring if it continues along this path.
And there are a lot of 1% that do the same... though their "means" are much favorable. All rich people arent evil maniacs bent on getting money anyway they can. This is why I feel the movement (as it is now) is misguided. And therein lies the rub. We dont know who is ethical and who is not. We dont know who acquired their money through honest means and who had to cheat their way to the top. We have no specifics, we have no names. All we have are the "1%" and we're blindly attacking this group and asking for heads to roll. But whose head? How do we find out? Theyre fighting a battle where they only have a vague idea of who the enemy is. Isnt Bill Gates rich? Isnt he part of the 1%. Is he the enemy even though he uses an enormous amount of his money on philanthropic acts?rohlfinator said:
It really doesnt make much sense to me.
At this point I would like to see more focus on getting money out of politics and getting money out of news (the news especially is where the 1% controls the message). Occupy has grabbed the world's attention but attention fades unless you start doing something with it.
This needs to keep up though. It's the only thing putting any backbone in liberal politicians.
This needs to keep up though. It's the only thing putting any backbone in liberal politicians.
This is from the Penn St. Thread, its a quote from a former Penn St. Player regarding the student riots:
"They are rioting and doing things they shouldn't be doing," he said. "I equate these students that are rioting to the occupiers on New York City right now. They're not mature enough to understand why they're rioting."
and there's the problem. most people just assume, because they're young, that they don't know what's REALLY up, or how everything REALLY works. so dumb.
"They are rioting and doing things they shouldn't be doing," he said. "I equate these students that are rioting to the occupiers on New York City right now. They're not mature enough to understand why they're rioting."
and there's the problem. most people just assume, because they're young, that they don't know what's REALLY up, or how everything REALLY works. so dumb.
Rocket Scientist
Member
They do. They also know nothing will be done with the footage.AniHawk said:
They'll just have to wait for the inevitable 2nd collapse of the economy and do stuf like charging into congress with thousands of people.Azih said:
Politicians won't listen when they can keep their comfy seat, just look at the shit in Greece. There were massive demostrations but the people in power simply don't seem to care until you disrupt their life directly. Sad, but true in the case of real reforms.
Here's the thing. I'm divorced from the situation in Greece and I can't figure out what reforms the protestors there wanted.Wazzim said:
I'm *not* divorced from the Occupy movement but I can't really blame someone who isn't invested in it from not knowing what reforms these protestors want.
They've changed the conversation which is an absurdly hopeful and amazing development. But unless this can be sustained it'll fade away to nothing more than another Che Guevara type logo on a Tshirt. Frankly the corporate media has nothing going for it other than sheer persistence and staying power and that's a hell of a thing to be going up against.
Sure politicians want to keep their comfy seat. They've figured out though that the way to do it in the States is to pander to the media, not listen to the people.
See this is what Im getting at. Who is "they". The entire 1%? We simply do not know and we probably never will until:Azih said:
a. We do some serious research on the subject
b. Do some undercover detective work and find out who the "bad guys"
But theyre not doing any of this as far as I know. And if they are, then theyre being very quiet about it. Right now, the 1% is just some phantom enemy that we are trying to blame everything on. It goes back to my original point. Is the 1% vs 99% mostly about income? Wouldnt this suggest that all rich people are evil? How can we make that call? How can we attack EVERYONE in the 1% when we know nothing about their day to day or what kind of person they are?
As I said. Phantom enemy. The debate against this protest is two tiered. I dont know who you are protesting against and I barely know what youre protesting about because its all just jumbled noise at this point. Fight against something. An ideal, a person, an unfair practice. Be specific. Stop yelling at an enemy who has no face.
empty vessel
Member
Azih said:
I also would like to see a more narrow focus on corporate control over government. That's still the clearest and most primary message coming out of the movement, but there's a lot of other going on, too. But, like you, it's the activity that counts and must be sustained, even if it isn't focused like a laser. As long as people are out, paying attention, and talking to each other, good things can and will come from it.
Occupy SLC camps ordered to go home after a man dies at one of the two camps in downtown Salt Lake City: http://www.ksl.com/?nid=1070&sid=18...r-park-occupy-slc-ordered-to-leave-both-camps
You're focusing on *people* here. I'm not. I'm focused on *the current state of affairs* in which those who are rich get all the breaks and everybody else gets shit on. That needs to be at the forefront of every conversation on politics and policy..GqueB. said:
Occupy has done an amazing job of that over the past few weeks. I'm worried that the media is now just focusing on the sensationalism and the spectacle and not the message.
A list of demands isn't needed so much as for the answer to "why are they occupying?" to remain "Because the rich have too much power and influence on our societies and that is why things are as bad as they are". The answer is now changing to "They don't know they're just young and immature and dirty hippies".
Edit: It may be that focusing on a few issues is the only way to keep the attention on the substance of the protests though. You don't hold people's attention by doing the same thing over and over.
empty: My personal opinion is that corporate control over the media is the root of the issue and the corp control of politicians comes largely out of that. But whatever. The challenge remains that as the NOVELTY of Occupy is wearing off the question of WHY are people occupying is no longer being asked which allows pundits to apply whatever motivation they want on it.
rohlfinator
Member
That's a fair criticism, I'd say. I have never been a fan of the 1% vs. 99% nomenclature, it's too oversimplified and buzzword-y. I wish there was a more nuanced message, but in today's media culture I don't know if the movement would have made it this far without this sort of catchphrase..GqueB. said:
Most of the specific complaints I've seen have been leveled toward the Wall Street bankers who were directly responsible for the financial crisis, and those who exert disproportionate pressure on our government to legislate in their favor. I don't think the call is to punish anyone who made it to the top, or even anyone who cheated -- the goal is to put measures in place to prevent people from cheating their way to the top in the future.
I do think you're right that the message is too muddled. Last I heard, they were planning to put out a specific declaration of their goals at some point. My concern is that they'll throw in too many assorted demands and ensure that none of them will get attention. IMO, they need to focus on a handful of specific changes, like sane banking regulations and getting money out of politics.
But "people" is what they need to make this fight personal and actually mean something. Once you specifically call someone else out, and do it factually, people have no choice but to take notice. But if you keep mentioning the 1% as this general enemy without making it clear why they are the enemy then no one knows how to respond to it. The 99% vs the 1% seems to be based on fact (income) but the idea behind seems more like a metaphor. Make up your minds.Azih said:
For instance, I read the 99% mantra about a month ago. It was a paragraph long and it described who the 99% was. I didnt fit into ANY of their descriptions. But I AM in the 99% financially. So given my salary Im part of the 99% but based on their mantra Im not. Financially Im not part of the 1% either so where am I?
Its such a muddled message.
Well theyre asking for donations and support so I think its fair to request they actually get their shit together.Joe said:
But yea the clothing thing is a bit much. Though when I visited, there were some shady lookin folk in there. My girlfriend and I left that area pretty quickly. The outer area was a bit more interesting though.
empty vessel
Member
I don't think these exercises in civil disobedience have been posted:
Scott Walker interrupted by the people's mic: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1oHRdiklTlU
Michelle Bachmann interrupted by the people's mic: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aw7VmGjg-b4
Scott Walker interrupted by the people's mic: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1oHRdiklTlU
Michelle Bachmann interrupted by the people's mic: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aw7VmGjg-b4
cooljeanius
Member
So my school's Occupy began today (OccupyGW). I went by McPherson Square and Freedom Plaza to spread the word. Got to use the People's Mic for one of my own announcements for once. Also I got interviewed by some news crew about my views on the Supercommittee. Unfortunately I didn't find out what station they were with so I probably won't get to see the final clip. While none of the people from Occupy DC came to join us, I did get some of their contact info to stay in touch. Anyway, about a dozen people or so came to our first GA, and we mostly just discussed administrative stuff. There was one guy from American University who came to tell us how their school's Occupy is going (they had like 30 or so people). Our next meeting will be Sunday the 20th, so hopefully more people will show up for that one so we can decide on some goals we actually want to work towards. Personally, the things I think are worth Occupying about at my school are making sure our school continues to provide plenty of financial aid and dealing with student debt, the fact that our upper-level faculty are extremely wealthy (our University President has a million-dollar salary, which, while he's a nice guy, is too much), and the fact that America's 1% are far over-represented at GW, which is unfair.
The problem many of you seem to be having with these protests is you're expecting big things too soon. You want a tidily packed message from the beginning. There hasn't been a movement structured like this in a long time (maybe ever) in this country. The decentralized and non-hierarchical structure has it's advantages and disadvantages. One of them is that direction, action, and solutions will take longer to surface and coalesce. It's already plainly obvious what some of the common issues are at hand here and what the protestors are upset about.
Right now the strategy is (and should be) awareness of the problems the media and politicians want to sweep under the rug. Awareness goes hand-in-hand with education. Teach-ins and other similar strategies are commonly employed at almost all Occupy locations, every day. There is constant political dialog at Occupy locations. For those that can't make it out to Occupy, they may be now more motivated to seek understanding of the issues identified on their own. The problems in this country are both wide-reaching and complex and they won't be solved easily. If we can shift the conversations at schools, on social media networds, or even at the dinner table, we've taken a strong step in the right direction. Education and awareness won't happen in a couple of days or weeks or even months. It's a constantly ongoing process and one that I believe should be central to any Occupy location.
The American people know things are screwed up and we're working out how to change that course. Take a seat, it's going to be awhile.
Right now the strategy is (and should be) awareness of the problems the media and politicians want to sweep under the rug. Awareness goes hand-in-hand with education. Teach-ins and other similar strategies are commonly employed at almost all Occupy locations, every day. There is constant political dialog at Occupy locations. For those that can't make it out to Occupy, they may be now more motivated to seek understanding of the issues identified on their own. The problems in this country are both wide-reaching and complex and they won't be solved easily. If we can shift the conversations at schools, on social media networds, or even at the dinner table, we've taken a strong step in the right direction. Education and awareness won't happen in a couple of days or weeks or even months. It's a constantly ongoing process and one that I believe should be central to any Occupy location.
The American people know things are screwed up and we're working out how to change that course. Take a seat, it's going to be awhile.
SouthernDragon
Member
empty vessel said:
I was slightly confused at the first one, and then I realized who Walker was.
Then I enjoyed it thoroughly. I would watch the Bachmann one, but I have guests.
Also, why weren't they kicked out? Did they pay to be there?
Also, thugs in suits want to stop the video. HA
Alpha-Bromega
Member
empty vessel said:
great
empty vessel said:
You're being disingenuous. Naomi Klein does not have a special insight into the mind of our president, so her attributing his decision to occupy is wishful thinking.
The occupy movement has no goals or focus beyond occupation. As long as it stands for nothing, well, it's easy to claim it has influenced everything.
I am all for protest in the pursuit of reform. But if you're going to do it, have some guts and make your protests mean something. All those people who marched in the 1960s and 1970s were brave enough to make a stand over something tangible: real social injustices and a questionable war. The occupy folks just know they're mad, but damn! if they're not able to articulate exactly what they're mad about or what they want (specifically) to be done to remedy it.
Something Wicked
Member
alstein said:
That would have certainly put a wrench in the Democratic Party's future if the first black US president had an "R" next to his name.
empty vessel
Member
Eric Cantor gets interrupted by the people's mic at Rice University. Rice University admin supports Eric Cantor over basic human decency.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7i-nCqINfAI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7i-nCqINfAI
the_zombie_luke
Member
I am so relieved these protests are happening. For years, we've been told by our corporate bought Congress and the media that we don't matter. That we don't have money for health care, infrastructure, or anything that would serve the public. Yet we have money for multiple wars and a reduction in military spending would mean America would be destroyed. Har har. We're also told social security is out of money and we shouldn't want back. They've stolen from us for years.
I like how Eric Cantor says this movement is "pitting Americans against Americans," yet his party has done that for years to keep the country stuck. The reality is if all the rich people and companies that have gotten tax payer money and never paid taxes left, the country would be better for it. They do not create anything, they are parasites, and maybe we would finally get companies that would bring back manufacturing to America. I don't care how it happens. The US was a manufacturing super power, and we need that back.
As for all the people saying this will never last for whatever reason, the cat's out of the bag. If terrible internet memes can last, so will this. And there have been demonstrations in Wyoming. Yes, Wyoming. That should be proof it isn't just "hippies" or "leftists" or any other lame term people will use to fight their own interests. For my part, I am actually going to e-mail my congress persons and senators and actually engage in the political process. Voting isn't enough. I don't have unrealistic expectations of the movement, but in all seriousness, it kept me from giving up on my country.
I like how Eric Cantor says this movement is "pitting Americans against Americans," yet his party has done that for years to keep the country stuck. The reality is if all the rich people and companies that have gotten tax payer money and never paid taxes left, the country would be better for it. They do not create anything, they are parasites, and maybe we would finally get companies that would bring back manufacturing to America. I don't care how it happens. The US was a manufacturing super power, and we need that back.
As for all the people saying this will never last for whatever reason, the cat's out of the bag. If terrible internet memes can last, so will this. And there have been demonstrations in Wyoming. Yes, Wyoming. That should be proof it isn't just "hippies" or "leftists" or any other lame term people will use to fight their own interests. For my part, I am actually going to e-mail my congress persons and senators and actually engage in the political process. Voting isn't enough. I don't have unrealistic expectations of the movement, but in all seriousness, it kept me from giving up on my country.
maniac-kun
Member
After the recent actions of the politicians in Europe i dont think that we still live in a democracy. They let the markets decide for them. Democratic instruments get demonized ( referendum of the Greeks) and they do everything to keep the current system going like it was before instead of doing somethign great and change something.
Alpha-Bromega
Member
the_zombie_luke said:
good post. and honestly, the bolded, is for me too.
empty vessel
Member
maniac-kun said:
I agree that the contempt for democracy expressed by governing leaders and economic elites of Western countries is palpable.
slidewinder
Banned
I don't think it's actually "contempt," though, and I'm positive that it's not it's useful to think of it that way, regardless. This is the game, and let's figure out how to win: business.empty vessel said:
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