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[Myansie]

I feel better about this whole movement if they had a concise message. What exactly are you trying to accomplish? The occupiers are all over the place, we get it, your pissed about everything. A lot of people seem to just protest for protesting's sake.

Have you ever listened to a politician? I find it hard to believe that their message is any more concise and defined. Hope? Change? Politicians are famous for dodging questions, not giving answers.

For a political movement to sit neatly on a placard would be a marketing device rather than a real change in political rhetoric.

We're reminded on a daily basis the importance of OWSs themes. Check this thread out, posted just today...

60 Minutes Investigation into Inside Trading by Congress

 

[Slayven]

From everything I been reading, it looks like the mayors are putting up the "Wrap it up B" signs.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Have you ever listened to a politician? I find it hard to believe that their message is any more concise and defined. Hope? Change? Politicians are famous for dodging questions, not giving answers.

For a political movement to sit neatly on a placard would be a marketing device rather than a real change in political rhetoric.

[/URL]

I'll take this marketing device any day.

 

[kame-sennin]

Have you ever listened to a politician? I find it hard to believe that their message is any more concise and defined. Hope? Change? Politicians are famous for dodging questions, not giving answers.

For a political movement to sit neatly on a placard would be a marketing device rather than a real change in political rhetoric.

We're reminded on a daily basis the importance of OWSs themes. Check this thread out, posted just today...

60 Minutes Investigation into Inside Trading by Congress

This is a really good point, especially the bold.

 

[Evlar]

Breaking News on NYT: Zuccotti Park is being cleared by police.

 

[cooljeanius]

Breaking News on NYT: Zuccotti Park is being cleared by police.

Live Stream:
http://www.livestream.com/occupynyc
Apparently NYPD is saying it's a fire hazard? Didn't they just give them back their generators after determining they weren't a fire hazard after all?

 

[Tawpgun]

The good news is, they didn't make a sound during my mid-term.

The bad news is I probably bombed it anyway.

Seems they're spread a little thin. I get they want to declare solidarity with the general Wall St. Movement, but it seems like a good place to start talking about the Education issues and all the money with that.

Tuition at Northeastern is ridiculous. One of their demands should be to see how tuition is really calculated, so they can try and figure out a way to make the school easier on the wallet without hurting anyone too much.

 

[sangreal]

Live Stream:
http://www.livestream.com/occupynyc
Apparently NYPD is saying it's a fire hazard? Didn't they just give them back their generators after determining they weren't a fire hazard after all?

Pretty sure they gave them back because some lawyers demanded it (no rules against it), not because they didn't think it was a fire hazard

 

[smokeymicpot]

Breaking News on NYT: Zuccotti Park is being cleared by police.

Holy shit. They could of at least waited till morning.

 

[cooljeanius]

Pretty sure they gave them back because some lawyers demanded it (no rules against it), not because they didn't think it was a fire hazard

Well if they gave them back knowing it was a fire hazard, isn't that entrapment?

 

[sangreal]

Holy shit. They could of at least waited till morning.

Then OWS calls in reinforcements (again)

This woman on the livestream is really obnoxious

 

[sangreal]

Well if they gave them back knowing it was a fire hazard, isn't that entrapment?

Entrapment is encouraging someone to break a law they wouldn't otherwise break. So, no... If for no other reason than possessing a generator is not illegal.

I don't think that has any bearing on whether they can be evicted though. Did they end up erecting those $20k tents they were going to buy in defiance of the park rules?

 

[empty vessel]

Pretty sure they gave them back because some lawyers demanded it (no rules against it), not because they didn't think it was a fire hazard

Are you professing a naive belief that it isn't pretext?

 

[sangreal]

Are you professing a naive belief that it isn't pretext?

No, I am stating a fact. Lawyers for OWS demanded the generators back, and having no legal ground to keep them the fire department returned them. You can imagine whatever pretext you want, but fire hazard is not even the cover story the police are going with.

Police handed out letters to protesters ordering them to temporarily evacuate the park, and campers were ordered to remove all their tents. Police claimed it was a health issue, and that the park needed to be inspected.

Protesters were told they will be allowed to return to the park in several hours, but without their property, which will be brought to a sanitation garage.

http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/Occupy-Wall-Street-Protests-Sweep-Cops-Riot-Gear-133859263.html

 

[empty vessel]

No, I am stating a fact. Lawyers for OWS demanded the generators back, and having no legal ground to keep them the fire department returned them. You can imagine whatever pretext you want, but fire hazard is not even the cover story the police are going with.

Tell that to the New York Times: "Before the police moved in, they set up a battery of klieg lights and aimed them into the park. A police captain wearing a visored helmet walked down Liberty Street with an announcement: 'The city has determined that the continued occupation of Zuccotti Park poses an increasing health and fire safety hazard.'”

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/16/nyregion/police-begin-clearing-zuccotti-park-of-protesters.html

It's an obvious pretext. This is intended, quite plainly, to squelch the assembly rights of American citizens. Terrible excuses for Americans will shrug their shoulders. The rest will take it seriously.

 

[Dartastic]

The fact that they did this literally in the middle of the night is disgusting.

 

[lo escondido]

It's an obvious pretext. This is intended, quite plainly, to squelch the assembly rights of American citizens. Terrible excuses for Americans will shrug their shoulders. The rest will take it seriously.

Isn't it not a public park?. How do they have any "right" to be there?

Though knowing you assembly rights probably trump private property rights.

 

[SonofdonCD]

It's so bizarre. I just walked by the park at around 10:30pm last night, and everything was going fine. Granted, I had my headset on talking on the phone as I walked past, but when I heard the news it seemed so uncalled for.

I guess we'll see how things go from here.

 

[slidewinder]

Isn't it not a public park?

No, it's a public park. Just as public as any other.

 

[Rocket Scientist]

Privately owned.

 

[Cyrillus]

No, it's a public park. Just as public as any other.

Zuccotti Park, formerly called Liberty Plaza Park, is a 33,000-square-foot (3,100 m2) publicly accessible park in Lower Manhattan, New York City, privately owned by Brookfield Properties.

I'm just posting this for clarification. I fully support the OWS movement, and while I'm not sure of the legality of their setting up camp in Zuccotti Park, it's certainly telling that NYPD has decided to remove them in the early morning, while barring access to media, closing the airspace, and removing all the belongings via dump trucks.

 

[slidewinder]

It's a public park, folks.

 

[kassatsu]

lol at these people attacking the dude streaming

 

[alexthekid]

I stopped by the Wall street occupations a couple of days ago. One thing I don't understand is what the police has against the protesters? I asked one for directions and she wouldn't tell me at first but after explaining that I was just a tourist wanting to check it out she pointed me in the right direction. When we left though she said that we shouldn't go to close and that we could catch a disease. Also around the park there was a big gathering of police officers. So whats the problem? The people I saw didn't seem like they could hurt a fly.

 

[Kentpaul]

Why can police clear protesters, i thought we had a right to protest

 

[140.85]

Because speech suppression/interruption is civil, intelligent discourse. Yea ok

Either agree with us or we will silence you. It's intimidation plain and simple.

 

[rCIZZLE]

I'll listen to their message when they have a message.

 

[Rocket Scientist]

In any other thread or discussion, the moderators would have cracked down on people harder than the Oakland PD.

 

[jorma]

I'll listen to their message when they have a message.

No you wont.

 

[lo escondido]

Why can police clear protesters, i thought we had a right to protest

you have a right to assemble and petition the government your grevences. It does not mean you can do it anywhere and forever (unless its your own property).

I would like clarification on the status of the park (if its public or private). I'm confused right now

 

[Chichikov]

Either agree with us or we will silence you. It's intimidation plain and simple.

Do you honestly think that the house majority leader is silenced or intimidated by some students shouting at him?
It's fine to disagree with OWS, but please, don't try to paint that disagreement as some concern for freedom of speech.

 

[Jackson]

No, it's a public park. Just as public as any other.

You got it backwards... It's a private park. A public park is owned by the city and you can be kicked out by cops at any time they want. A private park means the owner has to want to kick you out.

I would like clarification on the status of the park (if its public or private). I'm confused right now

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zuccotti_Park

Private.

 

[Chichikov]

You got it backwards... It's a private park. A public park is owned by the city and you can be kicked out by cops at any time they want. A private park means the owner has to want to kick you out.

It's not just any private property.
It was built in return to zoning and building code concession the city made for the private owners.
It was not built out of charity.

It belongs to the people.

 

[Jackson]

It's not just any private property.
It was built in return to zoning and building code concession the city made for the private owners.
It was not built out of charity.

It belongs to the people.

"After renovations in 2006, the park was renamed by its current owners, Brookfield Office Properties, after company chairman John Zuccotti."

If by people you mean Brookfield Office Properties, then yes.

 

[140.85]

Do you honestly think that the house majority leader is silenced or intimidated by some students shouting at him?
It's fine to disagree with OWS, but please, don't try to paint that disagreement as some concern for freedom of speech.

You miss the point. Obviously, these incidents pose no threat to their rights outside of the brief interruption itself, but the message is clear - you should be silenced if you are not with us.

 

[rCIZZLE]

No you wont.

I was interested when it first started but a bunch of people sitting in a park can only hold my attention for so long...

Even the people I've seen interviewed have wildly different views on a solution with many of them falling on both extremes.

But I guess since it came off like I don't agree, you assume I won't listen.

 

[Chichikov]

"After renovations in 2006, the park was renamed by its current owners, Brookfield Office Properties, after company chairman John Zuccotti."

If by people you mean Brookfield Office Properties, then yes.

I didn't say it was owned by the people.
It's a meaningless statement anyway.

I meant exactly what I said, and I will repeat again -
It was built as a public park, for the people to use, as part of deal that was struck with the city as part of zoning and building code concession.
They cannot go back on that deal.

You miss the point. Obviously, these incidents pose no threat to their rights outside of the brief interruption itself, but the message is clear - you should be silenced if you are not with us.

Did anyone ever said that Eric Cantor should not be allowed to talk?
Where the do you come up with that stuff?

 

[140.85]

I didn't say it was owned by the people.
It's a meaningless statement anyway.

I meant exactly what I said, and I will repeat again -
It was built as a public park, for the people to use, as part of deal that was struck with the city as part of zoning and building code concession.
They cannot go back on that deal.

Pretty sure "use" doesn't include a camping trip.

 

[Jackson]

I didn't say it was owned by the people.
It's a meaningless statement anyway.

I meant exactly what I said, and I will repeat again -
It was built as a public park, for the people to use, as part of deal that was struck with the city as part of zoning and building code concession.
They cannot go back on that deal.

My point is, the park was specifically chosen because it's privately held and thus the cops could do nothing unless it was the park owners decided not to allow them to be there. Obviously the park owners made that decision yesterday.

Like a backyard, a cop can't kick you out from someone's backyard, unless the owner of the backyard wants them out.

 

[Chichikov]

Pretty sure "use" doesn't include a camping trip.

A peaceful to assembly to petition the Government for a redress of grievances is a field trip to you?

Be honest here, you're against OWS for political reasons, and that's fine, but please, don't try to dress it up as anything other than that.

My point is, the park was specifically chosen because it's privately held and thus the cops could do nothing unless it was the park owners decided not to allow them to be there. Obviously the park owners made that decision yesterday.

Like a backyard, a cop can't kick you out from someone's backyard, unless the owner of the backyard wants them out.

If the owners of the park want to go back on their deal with the city, let's take the top 20 floors of the adjacent building (IIRC, that what they got in return of that park).
And by the way, I'm not talking about the small details here, I'm talking about the big picture and the notion that this is a private property that its owners can do what they want with it.

 

[SteveWD40]

BBC's report said that someone was killed there the other day? unrelated to the protests but there seems to be a Wire Season 3 "Hamster-damn" vibe to the place now, that there are all kinds of unrelated folk using it as a place to hang out.

I was in NYC a few weeks ago and my GF took some shots of the park, it seemed pretty friendly to be honest.

As for their message, I think the idea is solid but has been drowned out by both left and right wing shouting (far left not sticking to the focus, preaching for the fall of capitalism, far right painting them as spoiled hipsters).

The govt needs to take a step back from corporate interest, that's the issue and Washington is where your govt are based.

 

[140.85]

A peaceful to assembly to petition the Government for a redress of grievances is a field trip to you?

Be honest here, you're against OWS for political reasons, and that's fine, but please, don't try to dress it up as anything other than that.

You do realize that the right of assembly does not include the right to camp wherever you want right? Can we at least get that straight?

 

[Chichikov]

You do realize that the right of assembly does not include the right to camp wherever you want right? Can we at least get that straight?

"the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

No, not really.

But again, this is not "wherever they want", it's in a park built for the public, in return for concession the public made to a private developer.

 

[Jackson]

If the owners of the park want to go back on their deal with the city, let's take the top 20 floors of the adjacent building (IIRC, that what they got in return of that park).
And by the way, I'm not talking about the small details here, I'm talking about the big picture and the notion that this is a private property that its owners can do what they want with it.

It's private. I'm sorry if you don't like how it became private or whatever crazy conspiracies you have in your head. In the legal sense of the word it's PRIVATE.

And because it's privately owned the owners decided to kick them out.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/15/zuccotti-park-evacuation_n_1094164.html

"At about 1 a.m. Tuesday, police handed out notices from the park's owner, Brookfield Office Properties, and the city saying that the park had to be cleared because it had become unsanitary and hazardous. Protesters were told they could return, but without sleeping bags, tarps or tents."

 

[Chichikov]

It's private. I'm sorry if you don't like how it became private or whatever crazy conspiracies you have in your head. In the legal sense of the word it's PRIVATE.

And because it's privately owned the owners decided to kick them out.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/15/zuccotti-park-evacuation_n_1094164.html

"At about 1 a.m. Tuesday, police handed out notices from the park's owner, Brookfield Office Properties, and the city saying that the park had to be cleared because it had become unsanitary and hazardous. Protesters were told they could return, but without sleeping bags, tarps or tents."

Are you going to ignore what I keep posting and just saying "it's private"?
I'll repeat, for the 4th time in this thread -
The developer wanted concession from the city about zoning and height regulation, in return, they agreed to build a park for public use.

Listen, I may be wrong here, I've been wrong before about things, but keep saying "it's private!!!" is not a counter argument.

 

[slidewinder]

No, but it's reflective of an importantly pervasive mindset.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Are you going to ignore what I keep posting and just saying "it's private"?
I'll repeat, for the 4th time in this thread -
The developer wanted concession from the city about zoning and height regulation, in return, they agreed to build a park for public use.

Listen, I may be wrong here, I've been wrong before about things, but keep saying "it's private!!!" is not a counter argument.

Except it is in this case. Public use doesn't make it public property.

Good to see the squatters are being cleared out.

 

[Cyrillus]

It's private. I'm sorry if you don't like how it became private or whatever crazy conspiracies you have in your head. In the legal sense of the word it's PRIVATE.

And because it's privately owned the owners decided to kick them out.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/15/zuccotti-park-evacuation_n_1094164.html

"At about 1 a.m. Tuesday, police handed out notices from the park's owner, Brookfield Office Properties, and the city saying that the park had to be cleared because it had become unsanitary and hazardous. Protesters were told they could return, but without sleeping bags, tarps or tents."

What an awesome article. I was watching a live feed, which confirmed 3 arrests just on the feed itself. Also, they mention that the police gave notice at 1AM, make no mention of them moving in about 10 minutes later and forcibly removing people (some without being allowed to gather their belongings), and then proceed to gather up all the belongings in the park and move throw them into a pile, and later garbage trucks. They also mention the officer said there weren't a lot of people in the park Tuesday morning. This might be because they completely closed the park off until 5AM?

Not meaning to jump on you for posting it, and I realize they have "updates in their liveblog," but the few details they chose to put in the main article are infuriating.

 

[C.Dark.DN]

Well, the "health concern" excuse is popping up in my small city of 170,000.

They have a camp site on the Court House lawn and the news is saying they might get "evicted because of health concerns".

Decision will be made tomorrow: http://www.newschannel9.com/news/occupy-1006539-chattanooga-county.html

What say you about this scenario?

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Thank you Occupy Wall Street for all the great changes you have brought to America lol.


Maybe that Vietnamese Americam cart owner can finally have a chance to make some money again with the squatters cleared out.

Thank you NYPD!