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Occupy Wall St - Occupy Everywhere, Occupy Together!

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ToxicAdam

Member
BobsRevenge said:
People will get away with what they feel they can get away with, and do what makes it easier for them to get away with it. Complexity makes it easier to get away with it. It makes it easier to hide the intentions and results. So people make things complex.

I'm not really sure how specific I can be here. Obviously the major players are the politicians who write and enact legislation, the lobbying organizations that influence those decisions, the corporations who fund both, and banks/insurance companies/trading what-have-yous that run the economy.


Thanks for explaining. I think we are close to the same opinion, although we may express it in different ways.

I just don't agree that there is some intentional 'complexity' or deceit manufactured to obfuscate people's motivations. I think it's fairly simple and people that act in their own interests (and for the interests of those close to them). Which means they act in predictable, seemingly planned ways.

I think this country is just waking up to the fact that this entire economy has been built by cronyism and attempting to untangle that after decades and decades is exasperating.
 
Enron said:
For breaking which laws, exactly?

I think this is a problem I have with this movement and others. A lot of people seem to be focused on punishing those they feel have done wrong, name calling, and things of that nature. Instead more people need to be putting good ideas out there for discussion so the best can rise to the top. Having the rank and file make a lot of noise so the smart people running the show can get their ideas out there is a good way to enact change, but to an outsider right now this just seems like a lot of people making noise because they are upset.

At some point someone needs to take charge, sort out the crazy ideas from the group, and then say "This is what we need to do to move forward." Public perception is not being kind to these protests right now because you are seeing people with signs calling for the end of capitalism, calling bankers Nazis, and things of that nature.
 
Sirpopopop said:
Empty might say this is democracy in action, but then he would have to concede that the Tea Party was also democracy in action. I would be surprised to see him make that acknowledgement. I see nothing more than the Tea Party Redux.

You shouldn't be surprised. I've repeatedly praised the tea party movement for successfully influencing policy through their organization. The problem with the tea party lies entirely in its pro-corporate and anti-labor substance. It's a movement to make the country more economically inequitable than it already is today.

theBishop said:
I agree with you about organized labor in general. But there's no denying that so-called "big labor" is a hierarchical power structure in its own right. Many of those organizations have made alliances that are contrary to the goals of Occupation movements.

I don't necessarily disagree with you, but that's an entirely separate issue, in my opinion. Organized labor, in all its forms, needs more power vis-a-vis business, not less, and empowering organized labor has to be central to any movement dedicated to lessening economic inequities. The decline in labor bargaining power (which was not in any way "natural" but influenced by policy influenced by organized business) is, in my opinion, the biggest reason for the economic inequities we are currently experiencing.
 

Enron

Banned
Deku said:
Considering I was unable to get pro-OWS posters in our last subprime discussion to even admit home owners who may shouldn't have owned a home to begin with has guilt and responsibility for gaming the system to get cheap housing, there's no hope OWS will gain wide support with that kind of logic.

This. 1000x times. I was hit with this also in that discussion. Not a single one of them wanted to admit that we, as in the people, the "99%", might have also had something to do with it with our desire to consume and live beyond our means.
 
StuKen said:
GMO opposition is about the genetic land grab it entials. Monsanto have a very long and very well documented history of taking farmers from across the world to court after their gmos cross pollinate native varieties and demanding royalties on the hybrids holding patented genes.

Opposing genetically modified food in general because of this is like opposing smart phones and the internet because of patent trolls.

I don't doubt that progressive opposition to GM food dislikes this as well, but there's also no denying that there's a dislike for genetically modified food in itself, because it is not natural.
 

Chichikov

Member
ToxicAdam said:
Any idea who 'designed' it? I was curious to how that would work.
You don't think many of mechanisms that were instrumental to the financial meltdown were intentionally over-complicated?
And don't you think that this obfuscation contributed to that clusterfuck?

I do.

Edit: I think we're in agreement.
 

theBishop

Banned
marrec said:
But people identify themselves as Tea Party voters and the movement has swept into power some of the least qualified people to ever run for office. It's even propped up the Presidential Campaign of Bachman.

You're blind if you think that it's not substantive, no matter where it came from, there are large numbers of people out there who identify with this movement.

I think a movement has individuals who actually do things. You're right, there is a branding campaign called "tea party" which viewers at home may identify with. And that does have an affect on electoral politics. But it's not a movement for any kind of change. They're against taxes. bfd.

BTW: I've attended half a dozen tea party events on the east coast.
 
empty vessel said:
You shouldn't be surprised. I've repeatedly praised the tea party movement for successfully influencing policy through their organization. The problem with the tea party lies entirely in its pro-corporate and anti-labor substance. It's a movement to make the country more economically inequitably than it already is today.

Fair enough. :)

Oh, and you incorrectly attributed the second quote to me. We hashed out that debate a year ago, and agreed to disagree.
 

Marleyman

Banned
Enron said:
This. 1000x times. I was hit with this also in that discussion. Not a single one of them wanted to admit that we, as in the people, the "99%", might have also had something to do with it with our desire to consume and live beyond our means.

Of course the people do, but it is so ingrained in our culture that you need certain status symbols to get to the American Dream that people will do what they can to get there. They were easy prey for the predators out there, who could care less about how the person would afford what they were getting into. They had numbers to meet, country club memberships to pay for and other over the top items to worry about their prey.
 

magicstop

Member
Enron said:
This. 1000x times. I was hit with this also in that discussion. Not a single one of them wanted to admit that we, as in the people, the "99%", might have also had something to do with it with our desire to consume and live beyond our means.

We are taught to live beyond our means. Our society's focus on consumption and consumerism, it's unbelievable addiction to debt and spending, and the constantly advertised and communicated message to buy, buy, buy, spend, spend, spend, Be Yourself Drink Pepsi, you are defined by your car and house, etc . . .
And yet you expect people to somehow not suffer for that or be shaped by that?

Credit cards and large banks actively ENCOURAGE people to live beyond their means. It stops being "beyond your means" when a real estate agent and a mortgage banker are telling you that it IS within your means, that yes, this house is something YOU can have.

No one can buy a house flat out. Does that mean we shouldn't buy them then? Or that the system in which we indebt ourselves in order to provide shelter for ourselves is flawed? And when you are going hundreds of thousands of dollars into debt for a house anyway, and that's the norm, and then a banker sets you up with a sub-prime loan that looks great, and you are conditioned to accept it, how on EARTH could you possibly recognize that you are getting setup with a loan that's about to destroy you?

You can't. But they guys gambling with sub-prime loans on Wall St could. Speculators, investors, etc., gamble with huge resource pools as a matter of course, and in losing the gamble, they fucked up a lot of people who didn't know that they TOO were gambling without consent.

Enron said:
No matter how much you want it to be, though, it wasn't illegal.
Maybe, but we haven't had an honest effort by the government to find out.
In addition, the guys that make the laws are also having their pockets padded by the corporations.
It's time for some new laws and some new standards for those making the laws.
 

Marleyman

Banned
Enron said:
No matter how much you want it to be, though, it wasn't illegal.

I don't give a shit if it wasn't illegal. I am not arguing the law; I am arguing morality and preying on people who they fucking KNOW can't afford to get into what they are getting into.
 

ToxicAdam

Member
theBishop said:
I think a movement has individuals who actually do things. You're right, there is a branding campaign called "tea party" which viewers at home may identify with. And that does have an affect on electoral politics. But it's not a movement for any kind of change. They're against taxes. bfd.


You don't think abolishing Health Care Reform and radically changing Medicare is 'any kind of change'?

I may be mistaken, but I think many Tea Partiers are also 'flat-taxers'. That's pretty radical.
 

Marleyman

Banned
magicstop said:
We are taught to live beyond our means. Our society's focus on consumption and consumerism, it's unbelievable addiction to debt and spending, and the constantly advertised and communicated message to buy, buy, buy, spend, spend, spend, Be Yourself Drink Pepsi, you are defined by your car and house, etc . . .
And yet you expect people to somehow not suffer for that or be shaped by that?

Exactly, or x1000 times this.

magicstop said:
Credit cards and large banks actively ENCOURAGE people to live beyond their means. It stops being "beyond your means" when a real estate agent and a mortgage banker are telling you that it IS within your means, that yes, this house is something YOU can have.

They were lions feasting on easy prey for fucking years; they are scum and deserve nothing for what they have done to this country.
 

dave is ok

aztek is ok
Enron said:
No matter how much you want it to be, though, it wasn't illegal.
You're actually wrong.

You're not allowed to bet against the same investments you sell while advertising how great they are. That is illegal.
 

theBishop

Banned
ToxicAdam said:
You don't think abolishing Health Care Reform and radically changing Medicare is 'any kind of change'?

That's not the message at these events. The overriding issue is taxes. It's name comes from a famous tax revolt. That's not by accident.
 

ezrarh

Member
Enron said:
No matter how much you want it to be, though, it wasn't illegal.

From what I understand, Goldman Sachs and others were essentially selling sewage water packaged as Evian and getting reviewers (in this case would be the ratings agencies) to agree it's a triple A product with no inherent risks of getting sick. I believed they got fined for paltry sums but nobody got arrested at all.

edit: And to go with what dave is ok said, they also made money on betting that you would get sick from their crap.
 

Divvy

Canadians burned my passport
Deku said:
Not sure that stance is tenable. On one hand OWS protestors claim to want to represent what most Americans feel, anger at Wall Street, but fringe elements are arguing for over-arching criminality, destroying capitalism, charging everyone with a vague crime.

Considering I was unable to get pro-OWS posters in our last subprime discussion to even admit home owners who may shouldn't have owned a home to begin with has guilt and responsibility for gaming the system to get cheap housing, there's no hope OWS will gain wide support with that kind of logic.

Elements of the far left and right have always hated Wall Street, using their talking points because Wall Street dun screwed up is not productive.

Of course homeowners shouldn't have bought mortgages they couldn't afford, however many of the really subprime loans had terms and rates that were well hidden to the buyer. The buyer should have been aware and read up on these, but often the contracts were often long and extremely technical while the plans themselves were marketed to be "simple and easy". At the same time you have people like the president telling everyone that it's a great time to be buying homes.

I mean look at this ad:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ei5OrV-CmHg

What's the message being given? Hey it's not your fault that your finances are so shitty that no one will give you a mortgage, all the other lenders are just jerks! Come to us and you'll get one just fine!


Enron said:
For breaking which laws, exactly?
Fraud, fraud, insider trading, fraud.
 

BobsRevenge

I do not avoid women, GAF, but I do deny them my essence.
Deku said:
Not sure that stance is tenable. On one hand OWS protestors claim to want to represent what most Americans feel, anger at Wall Street, but fringe elements are arguing for over-arching criminality, destroying capitalism, charging everyone with a vague crime.

Considering I was unable to get pro-OWS posters in our last subprime discussion to even admit home owners who may shouldn't have owned a home to begin with has guilt and responsibility for gaming the system to get cheap housing, there's no hope OWS will gain wide support with that kind of logic.

Elements of the far left and right have always hated Wall Street, using their talking points because Wall Street dun screwed up is not productive.
But that's the problem. People can't understand the crimes on a deep enough level, and honestly, they shouldn't be expected to. You'd have to be a specialist in one field to fully understand one type of crime. You have journalists who make serious money getting shit wrong all the time. And it's their job to be accurate.

So yeah, people in a general sense are vague, and they're wrong. I'd say people in general have ideas and emotions that are accurate to reality about 10% of the time. Don't forget that many in the Arab Spring were probably wrong as fuck about all sorts of things and it's well known that that part of the world holds a ton of mistaken beliefs, superstitions, and conspiracy theories. But that doesn't make what they accomplished less righteous. But their goal was more singular and clear, so they could focus on one facet and get it right.

America does need a popular showing to get something done, but it needs specialists who know how simplify and get across truths so that even if the crimes aren't completely understandable to protesters, they stand on a real foundation. People like Paul Krugman, Elizabeth Warren, and other serious scholars, scientists, and professionals need to step up and provide that lucid foundation.
 
magicstop said:
We are taught to live beyond our means. Our society's focus on consumption and consumerism, it's unbelievable addiction to debt and spending, and the constantly advertised and communicated message to buy, buy, buy, spend, spend, spend, Be Yourself Drink Pepsi, you are defined by your car and house, etc . . .
And yet you expect people to somehow not suffer for that or be shaped by that?

Credit cards and large banks actively ENCOURAGE people to live beyond their means. It stops being "beyond your means" when a real estate agent and a mortgage banker are telling you that it IS within your means, that yes, this house is something YOU can have.

No one can buy a house flat out. Does that mean we shouldn't buy them then? Or that the system in which we indebt ourselves in order to provide shelter for ourselves is flawed? And when you are going hundreds of thousands of dollars into debt for a house anyway, and that's the norm, and then a banker sets you up with a sub-prime loan that looks great, and you are conditioned to accept it, how on EARTH could you possibly recognize that you are getting setup with a loan that's about to destroy you?

You can't. But they guys gambling with sub-prime loans on Wall St could. Speculators, investors, etc., gamble with huge resource pools as a matter of course, and in losing the gamble, they fucked up a lot of people who didn't know that they TOO were gambling without consent.


Maybe, but we haven't had an honest effort by the government to find out.
In addition, the guys that make the laws are also having their pockets padded by the corporations.
It's time for some new laws and some new standards for those making the laws.

I think you are being far too generous to people who dug themselves into these holes. The problem is people did not do enough research before jumping into a mortgage. I bought my first house two years ago and you can be damn sure I did tons of reading and asked a lot of questions before dropping $20,000 and jumping into a $210,000 loan. Your post almost sums up why I cannot get behind this movement at all. It seems a lot of people want to place all of them blame for their problems on a minority instead of admitting a lot of people have messed up over the years on all sides.
 

Jangocube

Banned
What ever happened to this Manos?

"In the interest of letting people discuss the issues at hand, whatever they may feel they are or however they feel about them, I withdraw from posting in this thread and any future thread on the subject."

Can't help yourself eh?
 

Enron

Banned
"You are correct, but.......THEY REALLY HAD NO CHOICE" is what I'm reading.

No.

At any point during this process, had people just stopped and thought about it, did the research, run their own numbers, read the fine print, done their due diligence for something as important as purchasing a home they could have realized it was indeed too good to be true and walked away. Ultimately, we are the ones that can get up from the table and walk away from what is being offered at any time. People just chose to hear what they wanted to hear.

At some point deep down people had to know this didn't sound quite right - a 300k home on a 40k year combined household income - or somesuch - is just too good to be true but they allowed themselves to be hoodwinked into it. The greedy financial institutions nor the 99% are free of blame.


Evil Benius said:
I think you are being far too generous to people who dug themselves into these holes. The problem is people did not do enough research before jumping into a mortgage. I bought my first house two years ago and you can be damn sure I did tons of reading and asked a lot of questions before dropping $20,000 and jumping into a $210,000 loan. Your post almost sums up why I cannot get behind this movement at all. It seems a lot of people want to place all of them blame for their problems on a minority instead of admitting a lot of people have messed up over the years on all sides.


Exactly. "It's not my/our fault, it's someone elses/society/etc" is just as ingrained in our culture as consumerism. No one wants to be accountable for fuckups - not the banks nor the people.
 
Jangocube said:
What ever happened to this Manos?

"In the interest of letting people discuss the issues at hand, whatever they may feel they are or however they feel about them, I withdraw from posting in this thread and any future thread on the subject."

Can't help yourself eh?
Except my thread is on the subject of humorous political protest signs. I haven't posted anything in this thread that is antagonistic and have been able to discuss the subject with numerous people.
 

dave is ok

aztek is ok
Enron said:
"You are correct, but.......THEY REALLY HAD NO CHOICE" is what I'm reading.

No.

At any point during this process, had people just stopped and thought about it, did the research, run their own numbers, read the fine print, done their due diligence for something as important as purchasing a home they could have realized it was indeed too good to be true and walked away. Ultimately, we are the ones that can get up from the table and walk away from what is being offered at any time. People just chose to hear what they wanted to hear.

At some point deep down people had to know this didn't sound quite right - a 300k home on a 40k year combined household income - or somesuch - is just too good to be true but they allowed themselves to be hoodwinked into it. The greedy financial institutions nor the 99% are free of blame.
I get what you're saying and I agree to an extent, but this collapse wasn't caused by people who couldn't afford their homes. Even if every single person who couldn't afford their home was foreclosed on it wouldn't have caused a recession like this. The majority of the blame lies with the investment banks and insurance giants
 

Enron

Banned
Manos: The Hans of Fate said:
Except my thread is on the subject of humorous political protest signs. I haven't posted anything in this thread that is antagonistic and have been able to discuss the subject with numerous people.

Silly Manos - your very presence is disagreeable! No room for other opinions here! Get out!
 

Divvy

Canadians burned my passport
Enron said:
"You are correct, but.......THEY REALLY HAD NO CHOICE" is what I'm reading.

No.

At any point during this process, had people just stopped and thought about it, did the research, run their own numbers, read the fine print, done their due diligence for something as important as purchasing a home they could have realized it was indeed too good to be true and walked away. Ultimately, we are the ones that can get up from the table and walk away from what is being offered at any time. People just chose to hear what they wanted to hear.

At some point deep down people had to know this didn't sound quite right - a 300k home on a 40k year combined household income - or somesuch - is just too good to be true but they allowed themselves to be hoodwinked into it. The greedy financial institutions nor the 99% are free of blame.

I don't think anyone argues that the homeowners are completely free of blame. They most certainly should have researched them. Unfortunately the poorest people are often the least educated and many probably would not understand everything in a mortgage contract.

I mean you can blame a fish for taking the bait sure, but it really doesn't understand what a hook is.
 

ChiTownBuffalo

Either I made up lies about the Boston Bomber or I fell for someone else's crap. Either way, I have absolutely no credibility and you should never pay any attention to anything I say, no matter what the context. Perm me if I claim to be an insider
magicstop said:
Not sure the of your question. If you are asking if Occupy Chicago exists, yes.

CBOT has given their answer.

7x2bD.jpg
 

ToxicAdam

Member
magicstop said:
We are taught to live beyond our means. Our society's focus on consumption and consumerism, it's unbelievable addiction to debt and spending, and the constantly advertised and communicated message to buy, buy, buy, spend, spend, spend, Be Yourself Drink Pepsi, you are defined by your car and house, etc . . .
And yet you expect people to somehow not suffer for that or be shaped by that?

No, we ALLOW ourselves to live beyond our means. We have POORLY educated our society on how to behave fiscally. Fiscal management should be considered a required credit in High School like Geography or American History.

Credit cards and large banks actively ENCOURAGE people to live beyond their means. It stops being "beyond your means" when a real estate agent and a mortgage banker are telling you that it IS within your means, that yes, this house is something YOU can have.

But that was only after our government encouraged this type of activity in the belief that it would stabilize poor families. Which soon spread to all levels of class and private industry.

Maybe, but we haven't had an honest effort by the government to find out.
In addition, the guys that make the laws are also having their pockets padded by the corporations.

It's time for some new laws.

Definitely, that's why this movement should hyper-focus on reinstating the Glass-Steagall Act and taxing hedge-fund managers at a sane level.


theBishop said:
That's not the message at these events. The overriding issue is taxes. It's name comes from a famous tax revolt. That's not by accident.


You think that HCR and privitizing Medicare has nothing to do with taxes? Those are huge programs that require a ton of revenues. The point in 'shrinking government' is to pay less taxes down the road.
 
ezrarh said:
From what I understand, Goldman Sachs and others were essentially selling sewage water packaged as Evian and getting reviewers (in this case would be the ratings agencies) to agree it's a triple A product with no inherent risks of getting sick. I believed they got fined for paltry sums but nobody got arrested at all.

edit: And to go with what dave is ok said, they also made money on betting that you would get sick from their crap.

You can bet your ass that the structured products desks at the Wall Street banks were pissed as all hell when people on the other end of the floor were actively betting against them.

That's what a sell side institution does. They cover their bases.
 

magicstop

Member
Marleyman said:
Article written by Douglas Rushkoff that should be read, especially for the ones who doubt this movement.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/10/05/opini...n=Feed:+rss/cnn_topstories+(RSS:+Top+Stories)

Just about to read this, but had to say that the following image really cracked me up:

KykCR.jpg


:D Well played . . .

Edit: Fantastic article! Really impressed with CNN for hosting it. I'm going to quote it here just in case it goes away.

Like the spokesmen for Arab dictators feigning bewilderment over protesters' demands, mainstream television news reporters finally training their attention on the growing Occupy Wall Street protest movement seem determined to cast it as the random, silly blather of an ungrateful and lazy generation of weirdos. They couldn't be more wrong and, as time will tell, may eventually be forced to accept the inevitability of their own obsolescence.

Consider how CNN anchor Erin Burnett, covered the goings on at Zuccotti Park downtown, where the protesters are encamped, in a segment called "Seriously?!" "What are they protesting?" she asked, "nobody seems to know." Like Jay Leno testing random mall patrons on American History, the main objective seemed to be to prove that the protesters didn't, for example, know that the U.S. government has been reimbursed for the bank bailouts. It was condescending and reductionist.

More predictably perhaps, a Fox News reporter appears flummoxed in this outtake from "On the Record," in which the respondent refuses to explain how he wants the protests to "end." Transcending the shallow partisan politics of the moment, the protester explains "As far as seeing it end, I wouldn't like to see it end. I would like to see the conversation continue."

To be fair, the reason why some mainstream news journalists and many of the audiences they serve see the Occupy Wall Street protests as incoherent is because the press and the public are themselves. It is difficult to comprehend a 21st century movement from the perspective of the 20th century politics, media, and economics in which we are still steeped.

In fact, we are witnessing America's first true Internet-era movement, which -- unlike civil rights protests, labor marches, or even the Obama campaign -- does not take its cue from a charismatic leader, express itself in bumper-sticker-length goals and understand itself as having a particular endpoint.

Yes, there are a wide array of complaints, demands, and goals from the Wall Street protesters: the collapsing environment, labor standards, housing policy, government corruption, World Bank lending practices, unemployment, increasing wealth disparity and so on. Different people have been affected by different aspects of the same system -- and they believe they are symptoms of the same core problem.

Are they ready to articulate exactly what that problem is and how to address it? No, not yet. But neither are Congress or the president who, in thrall to corporate America and Wall Street, respectively, have consistently failed to engage in anything resembling a conversation as cogent as the many I witnessed as I strolled by Occupy Wall Street's many teach-ins this morning. There were young people teaching one another about, among other things, how the economy works, about the disconnection of investment banking from the economy of goods and services, the history of centralized interest-bearing currency, the creation and growth of the derivatives industry, and about the Obama administration deciding to settle with, rather than investigate and prosecute the investment banking industry for housing fraud.

Anyone who says he has no idea what these folks are protesting is not being truthful. Whether we agree with them or not, we all know what they are upset about, and we all know that there are investment bankers working on Wall Street getting richer while things for most of the rest of us are getting tougher. What upsets banking's defenders and politicians alike is the refusal of this movement to state its terms or set its goals in the traditional language of campaigns.

That's because, unlike a political campaign designed to get some person in office and then close up shop (as in the election of Obama), this is not a movement with a traditional narrative arc.
As the product of the decentralized networked-era culture, it is less about victory than sustainability. It is not about one-pointedness, but inclusion and groping toward consensus. It is not like a book; it is like the Internet.

Occupy Wall Street is meant more as a way of life that spreads through contagion, creates as many questions as it answers, aims to force a reconsideration of the way the nation does business and offers hope to those of us who previously felt alone in our belief that the current economic system is broken.

But unlike a traditional protest, which identifies the enemy and fights for a particular solution, Occupy Wall Street just sits there talking with itself, debating its own worth, recognizing its internal inconsistencies and then continuing on as if this were some sort of new normal. It models a new collectivism, picking up on the sustainable protest village of the movement's Egyptian counterparts, with food, first aid, and a library.

Yes, as so many journalists seem obligated to point out, kids are criticizing corporate America while tweeting through their iPhones. The simplistic critique is that if someone is upset about corporate excess, he is supposed to abandon all connection with any corporate product. Of course, the more nuanced approach to such tradeoffs would be to seek balance rather than ultimatums. Yes, there are things big corporations might do very well, like making iPhones. There are other things big corporations may not do so well, like structure mortgage derivatives. Might we be able to use corporations for what works, and get them out of doing what doesn't?

And yes, some kids are showing up at Occupy Wall Street because it's fun. They come for the people, the excitement, the camaraderie and the sense of purpose they might not be able to find elsewhere. But does this mean that something about Occupy Wall Street is lacking, or that it is providing something that jobs and schools are not (thanks in part to rising unemployment and skyrocketing tuitions)?

The members of Occupy Wall Street may be as unwieldy, paradoxical, and inconsistent as those of us living in the real world. But that is precisely why their new approach to protest is more applicable, sustainable and actionable than what passes for politics today. They are suggesting that the fiscal operating system on which we are attempting to run our economy is no longer appropriate to the task. They mean to show that there is an inappropriate and correctable disconnect between the abundance America produces and the scarcity its markets manufacture.

And in the process, they are pointing the way toward something entirely different than the zero-sum game of artificial scarcity favoring top-down investors and media makers alike.
 

magicstop

Member
cooljeanius said:
Goddammit these "End The Fed" people are going to tear the Occupy New Hampshire group apart

The beginning of a movement is usually the most tumultuous and divided. People come expecting one thing, and see a whole bunch of other things. It takes a little time, energy, and scuffles to get together and have everyone working on the same page. It's to be expected. Just keep pushing to unified, find what topics you ARE in agreement about, and how to push them, while still respecting differences of opinions.
 

theBishop

Banned
cooljeanius said:
Goddammit these "End The Fed" people are going to tear the Occupy New Hampshire group apart

Politics has gotten so weird in the US... The so-called centrist ideology of the ruling class is so pervasive. People don't even know why there's a division between left and right.
 

theBishop

Banned
magicstop said:
The beginning of a movement is usually the most tumultuous and divided. People come expecting one thing, and see a whole bunch of other things. It takes a little time, energy, and scuffles to get together and have everyone working on the same page. It's to be expected. Just keep pushing to unified, find what topics you ARE in agreement about, and how to push them, while still respecting differences of opinions.

I'm not sure I agree with this advice. It depends who the "End the Fed" people are. Are they leftists protesting the oligarchic control of the economic system, or are they rightists opposing inflation? If you take those groups and say "focus on agreement", you're going to have a really weird, and weak coalition.
 

Marleyman

Banned
cooljeanius said:
"Herman Cain On Occupy Wall Street: 'If You Don't Have A Job And You're Not Rich, Blame Yourself'"
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/05/herman-cain-occupy-wall-street_n_996265.html

This Herman Cain guy says some ridiculous shit.

This quote by Cain...my god

"I don't have facts to back this up, but I happen to believe that these demonstrations are planned and orchestrated to distract from the failed policies of the Obama administration."
 

Foffy

Banned
Marleyman said:
This Herman Cain guy says some ridiculous shit.

This quote by Cain...my god

Ugggh...

It's like the Republican party is a comical bunch of super villains.

The sad thing is people will still vote for them.
 
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