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[magicstop]

Stating facts is not trolling. At least they are honest about what this so-called movement is actually about now. Big labor.

I started typing to respond about how this movement isn't just about labor, as is obvious from the list of supporting groups, unions, etc., as well as the fact that Occupy Wall St hasn't released any official document or statement saying anything about that . . . but then I realized you were pulling some higher-tier troll-fu.
You start out by talking about stating facts, but then you go on to state something completely nonfactual, and BAM . . . I see what you did there.

6.5/10, but no thank you

Keep your eyes on the non-main stream media today, folks. The march is later this afternoon, and I think it's going to be a big one. That should definitely pic up some attention (though I hope it avoids too many arrests). LiveStream: Global Revolution should have some participant cams going, I hope.

 

[Bulbo Urethral Baggins]

I started typing to respond about how this movement isn't just about labor, as is obvious from the list of supporting groups, unions, etc., as well as the fact that Occupy Wall St hasn't released any official document or statement saying anything about that . . . but then I realized you were pulling some higher-tier troll-fu.
You start out by talking about stating facts, but then you go on to state something completely nonfactual, and BAM . . . I see what you did there.

6.5/10, but no thank you

ha ha. Sorry, but the big unions moving in has taken this movement to another level. All credibility lost.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

What exactly does "non-male" mean? Does that mean transgendered but, not female to male?


Schedule! by seasonofthebitch, on Flickr

 

[dave is ok]

"Big Labor"

That term alone is trolling.

 

[magicstop]

What exactly does "non-male" mean? Does that mean transgendered but, not female to male?

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6119/6214197490_b238c9cf9a.jpg

Good question. Presumably transgendered, but may also include the idea of individuals who do not consider nor represent themselves as male (which is bound up in the idea that a large part of gender is culturally bound). I think basically that means they are presenting a direct alternative to traditionally male-led media (and thereby the accompanying training). Also, we need to donate them some new paper it looks like, lol.

 

[Bulbo Urethral Baggins]

"Big Labor"

That term alone is trolling.

Seriously, what are your feelings about busing in the large unions (big labor)? Will union co-opting of this movement change matters?

 

[empty vessel]

Stating facts is not trolling. At least they are honest about what this so-called movement is actually about now. Big labor.

I hope the movement is about labor. It's what 100% of the 99% do for a living. Except those who can't even find a job. It would be downright silly if labor demands were not front and center for a movement centered on economic justice. What do you have against people who work for a living, exactly?

 

[dave is ok]

Seriously, what are your feelings about busing in the large unions (big labor)? Will union co-opting of this movement change matters?

"Big" is a bad word for them.

Anyway, this movement is about and for the working person - so it obviously has something to do with labor unions.

 

[magicstop]

Something something union gangsters something something incoming. Don't take the bait. He knows that labor workers are a large part of the people who are getting shafted, and that their inclusion is as natural as breathing. He's just trollolololing.
Also, did you guys know the fucked up history behind Foley Square, where the march is today? Executions, and lots of bad things going on there. Disturbing. I suspect this will be talking point today for the marchers.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Good question. Presumably transgendered, but may also include the idea of individuals who do not consider nor represent themselves as male (which is bound up in the idea that a large part of gender is culturally bound).

That makes no sense though to an extent. I mean if gender is culturally bound, doesn't that mean a culture can say that someone with a sex change is still the original gender? It would seem odd to peg gender to be determined by culture rather than basic human principles.

I think basically that means they are presenting a direct alternative to traditionally male-led media (and thereby the accompanying training).

Wouldn't it make more sense to only use one term though? As of now it seems to be oddly exclusionary. Even then the idea of training for "non-male" media just seems a bit bizarre in terms of what you could try and teach.

 

[Sirpopopop]

As a minority - I know I want nothing to do with a bunch of unwashed dirty hippies.

Take a shower. Shave yourself. Look respectable. Don't turn away politicians willing to help your cause.

Regardless, I probably wouldn't support this movement anyway:

Empty might say this is democracy in action, but then he would have to concede that the Tea Party was also democracy in action. I would be surprised to see him make that acknowledgement. I see nothing more than the Tea Party Redux.

All I see is a movement initially propped up by a foreign (Canadian) interest that's too overbroad in their goals. Let's see they want to tackle military spending, income inequality, genetically modified foods (lol), environmental issues, and a curtailing of social liberties? (Just going by their list of grievances. Apologies if I shouldn't be going by their first official release.)

That's just way too broad. They should just stick to financial issues.

 

[theBishop]

Perhaps that just don't care about the "movement."

It can't be discounted. But the movement cares about them.

 

[dave is ok]

Before anyone brings up the Arab Spring - no, this is not like the Arab Spring at all. That was by and large a native movement done by people who were citizens of their own country, whom were facing real oppression. Here in the United States we don't have appointed dictators for life no matter how much you guys seem to think we do.

Arab Spring didn't start because of populist anger directed at a dictator. It started because someone with a fruit cart was told he couldn't work anymore. Just like hundreds of thousands of Americans have been told that over the past couple years.

 

[marrec]

I hope the movement is about labor. It's what 100% of the 99% do for a living. Except those who can't even find a job. It would be downright silly if labor demands were not front and center for a movement centered on economic justice. What do you have against people who work for a living, exactly?

I think your precentages are off...

It'll be nice when Occupy gets co-opted. It might actually have the funds to do something significant then.

 

[magicstop]

That makes no sense though to an extent. I mean if gender is culturally bound, doesn't that mean a culture can say that someone with a sex change is still the original gender? It would seem odd to peg gender to be determined by culture rather than basic human principles.
Wouldn't it make more sense to only use one term though? As of now it seems to be oddly exclusionary. Even then the idea of training for "non-male" media just seems a bit bizarre in terms of what you could try and teach.

Gender identification makes for a really interesting topic and discussion, which I would love to have. But not in this thread. Start us up another thread, and I'd be happy to participate. Also, if you have qualms with what's on that sign, perhaps emailing and discussing it with the author is pertinent? None of us authored it or can claim to understand it in context, nor is it important for us to.

As a minority - I know I want nothing to do with a bunch of unwashed dirty hippies.

Take a shower. Shave yourself. Look respectable. Don't turn away politicians willing to help your cause.

Regardless, I probably wouldn't support this movement anyway:

Empty might say this is democracy in action, but then he would have to concede that the Tea Party was also democracy in action. I would be surprised to see him make that acknowledgement. I see nothing more than the Tea Party Redux.

All I see is a movement initially propped up by a foreign (Canadian) interest that's too overbroad in their goals. Let's see they want to tackle military spending, income inequality, genetically modified foods (lol), environmental issues, and a curtailing of social liberties? (Just going by their list of grievances. Apologies if I shouldn't be going by their first official release.)

That's just way too broad. They should just stick to financial issues.

You mean, "As an individual . . ." You don't get to speak for an entire demographic that way, lol. As far as the rest of your points, I recognize your opinion and your right to it. I acknowledge your opinions as such, and I'm glad you've chosen to share with us. Thanks!

 

[marrec]

All I see is a movement initially propped up by a foreign (Canadian) interest that's too overbroad in their goals. Let's see they want to tackle military spending, income inequality, genetically modified foods (lol), environmental issues, and a curtailing of social liberties? (Just going by their list of grievances. Apologies if I shouldn't be going by their first official release.)

That's just way too broad. They should just stick to financial issues.

What the hell? Why are hippies so against GMO foods? Science helps feed millions of people everyday damnit.

This is why we can't have nice things hippies!

 

[Sirpopopop]

Arab Spring didn't start because of populist anger directed at a dictator. It started because someone with a fruit cart was told he couldn't work anymore. Just like hundreds of thousands of Americans have been told that over the past couple years.

Yes, I know about the history. That was just one man who started the entire chain. Bouazizi did not personally create the revolutions that took hold in these countries. He did not organize them in any way. All he did was provide the impetus for people in Tunisia to revolt, which in turn, helped to get the ball rolling elsewhere.

He didn't organize the revolution done in Egypt. How could he? He was already dead.

 

[magicstop]

Arab Spring didn't start because of populist anger directed at a dictator. It started because someone with a fruit cart was told he couldn't work anymore. Just like hundreds of thousands of Americans have been told that over the past couple years.

I'm curious as to the tale of how that started. I've never heard that before!
Also, your point is right. Movements don't end how they start, they aren't usually started with 100% defined goals and grievances, and they are subject to change even if they do. A lot of people are angry about how our government and economy handle money, corporations, and its citizens. That anger is well deserved, and it is the starter fuel for this movement.

 

[Sirpopopop]

You mean, "As an individual . . ." You don't get to speak for an entire demographic that way, lol. As far as the rest of your points, I recognize your opinion and your right to it. I acknowledge your opinions as such, and I'm glad you've chosen to share with us. Thanks!

Umm... I'm a minority in this country. I gave my opinion. I never said I spoke for every minority in this country. You guys wanted to know what a minority thinks about this movement. I gave the opinion of a minority. If I was speaking for every minority in this country, I would have said, "Speaking for every minority in this country,"

There is no need to engage in verbal gymnastics here.

 

[Dash27]

I hope you're not trying to project what Roseanne Barr wants on this entire protest movement.... The Tea Party wasn't branded racist and angry because it was made up of white people. The rhetoric coming from some Tea Party members did a good enough job of that.

Not trying to project it no, but I am pointing out that is what was done to the Tea Party including the "too white" racist thing.

While it wasnt called the Tea Party at the time, there was a very strong outrage at Bush's wall street and bank bailout in 2008 so I see some common cause between the two opposing ideologies.

This occupy movement is a leftist, "we want more spending", "i hate wall street" group while the Tea Party is a right wing / libertarian "we want less spending, "i hate wall street" collaboration.

 

[Evil Benius]

I'm curious as to the tale of how that started. I've never heard that before!
Also, your point is right. Movements don't end how they start, they aren't usually started with 100% defined goals and grievances, and they are subject to change even if they do. A lot of people are angry about how our government and economy handle money, corporations, and its citizens. That anger is well deserved, and it is the starter fuel for this movement.

The starter fuel is there, but I wonder if the fuel for longevity is? I think a lot of people involved are expecting the kind of turn around time for results that we saw in the spring and that is just not going to happen. I have to wonder how long this will go on before people get apathetic and just stop trying because changes are not coming fast enough. Personally I will be surprised if this changes anything at all.

 

[StuKen]

What the hell? Why are hippies so against GMO foods? Science helps feed millions of people everyday damnit.

This is why we can't have nice things hippies!

GMO opposition is about the genetic land grab it entials. Monsanto have a very long and very well documented history of taking farmers from across the world to court after their gmos cross pollinate native varieties and demanding royalties on the hybrids holding patented genes.

 

[magicstop]

Sirpopop, I'm responding via PM.

The NYC General Assembly has posted an article requesting certain supplies, if anyone is interested in donating or helping out. It's a great way to help, even if you can't personally join an Occupy movement.
Here's a bit of the article

As the Occupation moves into autumn we need to prepare for the onset of of chilly weather.
Most Needed:

Sleeping bags, blankets, tarps and large, clear plastic storage bins to keep it all dry.

Polar fleece sweaters, pants, socks and gloves are also appreciated as, they are durable, easy to clean, keep even the soggiest occupiers warm, and everybody has some buried in a box somewhere.

[. . .]

The Street Medic teams specific needs list:

Melatonin, red duct tape to identify street medics, cue-tips, couch drops, disinfectant wipes, sport-top water bottles, sterile water/contact solution/ normal saline wash to wash out cuts and clean contacts, contact lens cases, super glue for boo-boos, CPR pocket resuscitators/CPR mouth barriers, sterile scissors, anti-bacterial liquid soap, Raid/DEET as bedbugs contingency, AA flash lights & batteries, anti-fungal foot cream, vitamin E cream, Goldbond/baby powder, Petroleum Jelly, various sized Petroleum Gauze, unscented lotion, vitamins, Emergen-C/Airborne, day-time cold medicine, large and small 3M Tegaderm breathable bandages, 3M Steri-Strips, Diphenhydramine, 4×4 Kerlix gauze, Triple Antibiotic Ointment, Aquacel Ag Dressings, splints, OTC Primatine mist inhaler, Benadryl, liquid Maalox, tee tree oil, non-latex gloves, cotton balls, baby wipes,

[. . .]

If it is not on this list they ask you to please not send it, as we already have a large stockpile; other occupations may have those needs, and we are sending our overstocks of these items to them.

[. . .]

Give it a read if you think you can send them some stuff. You can mail stuff to them as listed in the OP at:

The UPS Store
Re: Occupy Wall Street
118A Fulton St. #205
New York, NY 10038

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

GMO opposition is about the genetic land grab it entials. Monsanto have a very long and very well documented history of taking farmers from across the world to court after their gmos cross pollinate native varieties and demanding royalties on the hybrids holding patented genes.

Are you sure? I thought that view is a minority compared to the whole "FrankenFood" nonsense.

 

[theBishop]

I hope the movement is about labor. It's what 100% of the 99% do for a living. Except those who can't even find a job. It would be downright silly if labor demands were not front and center for a movement centered on economic justice. What do you have against people who work for a living, exactly?

I agree with you about organized labor in general. But there's no denying that so-called "big labor" is a hierarchical power structure in its own right. Many of those organizations have made alliances that are contrary to the goals of Occupation movements.

 

[Bulbo Urethral Baggins]

I hope the movement is about labor. It's what 100% of the 99% do for a living. Except those who can't even find a job. It would be downright silly if labor demands were not front and center for a movement centered on economic justice. What do you have against people who work for a living, exactly?

Getting the largest labor unions involved is a game changer. This movement has taken a different turn and it should be acknowledged.

 

[theBishop]

I'm curious as to the tale of how that started. I've never heard that before!
Also, your point is right. Movements don't end how they start, they aren't usually started with 100% defined goals and grievances, and they are subject to change even if they do. A lot of people are angry about how our government and economy handle money, corporations, and its citizens. That anger is well deserved, and it is the starter fuel for this movement.

Mohamed Bouazizi's self-immolation in Tunisia did motivate people to take action. But the occupation of Tahrir square wouldn't have happened without the efforts of the April 6th Youth Movement, which has been organizing since 2008.

So there are secular labor (left) roots to the "arab spring", also fueled by populist anger against dictatorship.

 

[Marleyman]

I stand with these protestors and hope the union workers come out in force. Problem is, the police are going to use that old tactic of rounding them up with fencing and arresting many of them whenever they get a chance.

What would be a game changer would be actual police joining in protest as they are not immune to the nonsense going on in this country.

 

[magicstop]

I stand with these protestors and hope the union workers come out in force. Problem is, the police are going to use that old tactic of rounding them up with fencing and arresting many of them whenever they get a chance.

What would be a game changer would be actual police joining in protest as they are not immune to the nonsense going on in this country.

So true, and fortunately, that's something being worked on. I won't give any specifics, as I'd rather not put my foot down my own throat, but there are relationships for some of the movements between involved labor unions/parties and local police forces that should lead to a new dynamic between them. Ultimately, when police decide they are on the side of the protesters, things change radically. Some of the NY police force look genuinely uncomfortable with what they are doing, and I hope that it's only a matter of time before we begin seeing them take interest in our message. The police are absolutely part of "the 99%," and as one protester's sign said, they are only 1 layoff away from being in the streets with the rest of Occupy.

Edit:
This one:

 

[el retorno]

Keep your eyes on the non-main stream media today, folks. The march is later this afternoon, and I think it's going to be a big one. That should definitely pic up some attention (though I hope it avoids too many arrests). LiveStream: Global Revolution should have some participant cams going, I hope.

I hope you realize that the "non-main stream media" crap sounds really tea partyish.

I've come around to not hating this movement or the tea party. I've realized these people are people I disagree with (the both are two extreme to on the opposite ends, one says no government the other let government solve everything) but that its not worth hating them. I think neithe really has captured the middle and "indepenent voice" who really only desire a government that just works and one that don't really have to worry about or pay attention too.

About this specific movement the things I dislike are

1.the anti-captialist notions- I don't want the USA to be Europe, I don't think taxes need to be raised very much, I don't think there needs to be a giant increase in regulation (more of just making sure where there is actually works), I don't think coportations are evil, I think globilization is good.

2. The fact that it was started by candadians- Keep involved in your own government

3. that they've added a bunch of hippie goals I don't share- Genetic food and the like

4. the fact that they are the sterotypical hippies

5. the high and mighty stance they've taken- you are not tahir you're not even 15-M, your middle class hippies.

 

[pompidu]

So true, and fortunately, that's something being worked on. I won't give any specifics, as I'd rather not put my foot down my own throat, but there are relationships for some of the movements between involved labor unions/parties and local police forces that should lead to a new dynamic between them. Ultimately, when police decide they are on the side of the protesters, things change radically. Some of the NY police force look genuinely uncomfortable with what they are doing, and I hope that it's only a matter of time before we begin seeing them take interest in our message. The police are absolutely part of "the 99%," and as one protester's sign said, they are only 1 layoff away from being in the streets with the rest of Occupy.

Edit:
This one:

This will be when the tides turn. I don't see that happening but one can hope!

 

[cooljeanius]

Looks like Occupy New Hampshire is getting torn apart by conflict between its Free State Project wing and its liberal/progressive wing... a shame...

 

[Marleyman]

So true, and fortunately, that's something being worked on. I won't give any specifics, as I'd rather not put my foot down my own throat, but there are relationships for some of the movements between involved labor unions/parties and local police forces that should lead to a new dynamic between them. Ultimately, when police decide they are on the side of the protesters, things change radically. Some of the NY police force look genuinely uncomfortable with what they are doing, and I hope that it's only a matter of time before we begin seeing them take interest in our message. The police are absolutely part of "the 99%," and as one protester's sign said, they are only 1 layoff away from being in the streets with the rest of Occupy.

Edit:
This one:

I am sure there are some relationships. Deep down I don't think they will join unless it gets HUGE but you never know in this kind of climate. I believe the message resonates with most of them, they just don't want to jeopardize their jobs/pensions unless it is well worth it.

 

[Enron]

NPR had some interviews with some protesters on the street yesterday or the day before and a handful of them stated how happy they would be if wall street were forced to shutdown or banks were made to just "disappear" somehow.

I dont know if NPR just picked out a couple of the two dimmest bulbs out there or what, but these chuckleheads sound like the WTO protest idiots.

I am sure there are some relationships. Deep down I don't think they will join unless it gets HUGE but you never know in this kind of climate. I believe the message resonates with most of them, they just don't want to jeopardize their jobs/pensions unless it is well worth it.

Any cop that walks off their job to join protesters fucking up traffic and order in the city ought to be fired on the spot.

None of them will join unless the union says so - at that point it will become a union thing and they won't lose their jobs.

 

[Keru_Shiri]

I hope you realize that the "non-main stream media" crap sounds really tea partyish.

I've come around to not hating this movement or the tea party. I've realized these people are people I disagree with (the both are two extreme to on the opposite ends, one says no government the other let government solve everything) but that its not worth hating them. I think neithe really has captured the middle and "indepenent voice" who really only desire a government that just works and one that don't really have to worry about or pay attention too.

^^Opinions like these will be the death of the Occupy movement, IMO. I think we really need to establish an identity beyond just being the Tea Party's political counterweight. Also, having a government we don't have to pay attention too is exactly what got us in this mess in the first place. No one wanted to pay attention anymore.

 

[BobsRevenge]

I'm not too big on politics, and I don't want this thread to veer off track into a political discussion. But why is Ron Paul always considered a 'crazy'?

Most of the things I've heard him say were pretty sound.

Ron Paul is crazy because he is too idealistic. His stuff sounds rational and completely logical in the America he dreamed up, but it isn't real. If his policies were enacted the American economy would basically disappear and America would become a third world country.

He seems to be an honest politician, who tries to apply rationality to his politics, but the foundations are all off. If you're caught up in Ron Paul's ideals, it's best to look at the assumptions he makes to come to his conclusions. They aren't realistic by any measure.

[/Ron Paul talk for me]

edit:

^^Opinions like these will be the death of the Occupy movement, IMO. I think we really need to establish an identity beyond just being the Tea Party's political counterweight. Also, having a government we don't have to pay attention too is exactly what got us in this mess in the first place. No one wanted to pay attention anymore.

The problem is that America's issues are extremely complex, and are that way by design. The greedy people who try to suck money out of the system obfuscate as much as they can get away with.

If these protesters come across as stupid, it's because the issues aren't easy to understand. It is incredibly important that they know something is wrong and they want to do something. Even though the issues are complex, the dangers are very real and the effects apparent.

Someone needs to step up and give these people a coherent and real narrative, and realistic goals

 

[el retorno]

^^Opinions like these will be the death of the Occupy movement, IMO. I think we really need to establish an identity beyond just being the Tea Party's political counterweight. Also, having a government we don't have to pay attention too is exactly what got us in this mess in the first place. No one wanted to pay attention anymore.

But you are just a counter weight to the tea party movement. You say mostly the same things (MSM, washington sucks, wall street sucks) just with different end goals.

 

[magicstop]

But you are just a counter weight to the tea party movement. You say mostly the same things (MSM, washington sucks, wall street sucks) just with different end goals.

Opinion noted, thanks for sharing

There's a great video (well, the first half; I don't like Peter and Paul and I think the music is cheesy ) up on the NYC General Assemble website, talking about the mainstream media's failure to cover this event or other grassroots events properly, plus a bit else. They should have left off Peter & Paul at the end, though

 

[ChiTownBuffalo]

I think they have an Occupy: Chicago thing?

I have no idea why.

 

[magicstop]

I think they have an Occupy: Chicago thing?

I have no idea why.

Not sure the of your question. If you are asking if Occupy Chicago exists, yes.

 

[el retorno]

Opinion noted, thanks for sharing

There's a great video (well, the first half; I don't like Peter and Paul and I think the music is cheesy ) up on the NYC General Assemble website, talking about the mainstream media's failure to cover this event or other grassroots events properly, plus a bit else. They should have left off Peter & Paul at the end, though

I don't want to just be a manos though. lol

But like I said I'm actually begining to see both groups as a net positive.

We have a crap ton of problems in the US right now and there are a lot of people discounting us from over coming them. But the thing I see is people on both the right and left begining to debate the solutions and provide answers. We have people wanting to have a say in the system. I don't see that in many other countrys so as one who is in the middle of the politicial spectrum in the US i'm optimistic that these kind of things both OccupyWallStreet and the Tea Party will through their repective pressure will require something to actually be done.

 

[ToxicAdam]

The problem is that America's issues are extremely complex, and are that way by design.

Any idea who 'designed' it? I was curious to how that would work.

 

[blame space]

god designed it

who else

 

[CrankyJay]

Does anyone actually think this is going to make something happen? I mean, I'm just as disgusted about the situation as the people protesting but I don't see what the end goal is here.

 

[Azih]

Does anyone actually think this is going to make something happen? I mean, I'm just as disgusted about the situation as the people protesting but I don't see what the end goal is here.

It would be nice if they picked a few people in charge of the speculative investment houses at the time of the crisis and demanded they be arrested and prosecuted instead of being bailed out. That would put some focus on the movement.

 

[BobsRevenge]

Any idea who 'designed' it? I was curious to how that would work.

I believe I called them "The greedy people who try to suck money out of the system".

People will get away with what they feel they can get away with, and do what makes it easier for them to get away with it. Complexity makes it easier to get away with it. It makes it easier to hide the intentions and results. So people make things complex.

I'm not really sure how specific I can be here. Obviously the major players are the politicians who write and enact legislation, the lobbying organizations that influence those decisions, the corporations who fund both, and banks/insurance companies/trading what-have-yous that run the economy.

What it comes down to is individuals gaming the system in what ways they can. They aren't faced with the results on others, and aren't sympathetic with who they affect, so their personal connection to the end-results is they get money. That's obviously a problem.

Human nature, for most, is to be greedy. Capitalism and all of that is fine, but human nature needs to be accounted for at every step to ensure that people get a fair shake.

If I was in a high position at a bank or insurance company, I'd be fucking over people left and right. That's the culture, and no one should assume they're above it. That's why it has to be controlled.

 

[Enron]

It would be nice if they picked a few people in charge of the speculative investment houses at the time of the crisis and demanded they be arrested and prosecuted instead of being bailed out. That would put some focus on the movement.

For breaking which laws, exactly?

 

[theBishop]

But you are just a counter weight to the tea party movement. You say mostly the same things (MSM, washington sucks, wall street sucks) just with different end goals.

The Tea Party is not a movement. It's a series of events funded by large Republican lobby groups. FreedomWorks, and Americans For Prosperity being the largest. That's why you have CNN covering insane stories like a few dozen "Tea Partiers" meeting at Dennys. There's a crazy amount of money behind it. And crucially, there's no real direct action.

The Tea Party is a movement in precisely the same way the Swiftboat Veterans for Truth were a movement.

 

[Deku]

I believe I called them "The greedy people who try to suck money out of the system".

People will get away with what they feel they can get away with, and do what makes it easier for them to get away with it. Complexity makes it easier to get away with it. It makes it easier to hide the intentions and results. So people make things complex.

I'm not really sure how specific I can be here. Obviously the major players are the politicians who write and enact legislation, the lobbying organizations that influence those decisions, the corporations who fund both, and banks/insurance companies/trading what-have-yous that run the economy.

What it comes down to is individuals gaming the system in what ways they can. They aren't faced with the results, and aren't sympathetic with who they affect, so their personal connection to the end-results is they get money. That's obviously a problem.

Human nature, for most, is to be greedy. Capitalism and all of that is fine, but human nature needs to be accounted for at every step to ensure that people get a fair shake.

If I was in a high position at a bank or insurance company, I'd be fucking over people left and right. That's the culture, and no one should assume they're above it. That's why it has to be controlled.

Not sure that stance is tenable. On one hand OWS protestors claim to want to represent what most Americans feel, anger at Wall Street, but fringe elements are arguing for over-arching criminality, destroying capitalism, charging everyone with a vague crime.

Considering I was unable to get pro-OWS posters in our last subprime discussion to even admit home owners who may shouldn't have owned a home to begin with has guilt and responsibility for gaming the system to get cheap housing, there's no hope OWS will gain wide support with that kind of logic.

Elements of the far left and right have always hated Wall Street, using their talking points because Wall Street dun screwed up is not productive.

 

[marrec]

The Tea Party is not a movement. It's a series of events funded by large Republican lobby groups. FreedomWorks, and Americans For Prosperity being the largest. That's why you have CNN covering insane stories like a few dozen "Tea Partiers" meeting at Dennys. There's a crazy amount of money behind it. And crucially, there's no real direct action.

The Tea Party is a movement in precisely the same way the Swiftboat Veterans for Truth were a movement.

But people identify themselves as Tea Party voters and the movement has swept into power some of the least qualified people to ever run for office. It's even propped up the Presidential Campaign of Bachman.

You're blind if you think that it's not substantive, no matter where it came from, there are large numbers of people out there who identify with this movement.