Support NeoGAF

[statham]

.

 

[Dead Man]

If you want to give more validity to your argument (which I can almost understand) you need to drop this... the officers were being harassed/encircled/blocked by the protesters argument. That's not why the pepper spray was used, it was because they wanted them to move - if their job was to move the protesters, and the protesters were there illegally, and verbal/physical requests to leave the location were ignored - that argument holds up on it's own.

To the people saying it was 'unjustified' - what would you have the officers do? Shrug their shoulders, walk away and say "sorry, nothing I can do, deal with it campus" ? This is a serious question, I have heard people say "they shouldn't have pepper sprayed, it was just a misdemeanour" - but what are their other options?

Waiting works well.

 

[.GqueB.]

 

[cooljeanius]

Apparently it's a meme now:

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

So my school's Occupy made some progress today. I think we might actually do some stuff. 4 of us went over to Occupy DC afterwards and made it to their GA. The Declaration Committee was supposed to announce their official declaration today, but apparently they still aren't done revising it yet. Apparently the first draft that focused mainly on economic issues didn't have enough language in it about specific disadvantaged groups in it, so they're going back and adding more of those demands in. :-/

Also Occupy DC's Black Caucus had its second meeting today, which I checked out, but I gave up on it after they couldn't even agree on procedure... On the positive side though, I am pleased to see how well the black community is represented in Occupy DC as compared to some of the other Occupy's.

Kind of reminds me of Monty Python and The Life of Brian a bit. lol

 

[Ripclawe]

Screw this bullshit to compare the civil rights movement to a bunch of college students who warned to move and didn't is embarrassing and ridiculous.

 

[.GqueB.]

Apparently it's a meme now:

lol, ok that one is pretty amazing.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Screw this bullshit to compare the civil rights movement to a bunch of college students who warned to move and didn't is embarrassing and ridiculous.

It's par the course here.

 

[.GqueB.]

It's par the course here.

What in gods name does that statement mean? Its been used a lot in this thread.

 

[cooljeanius]

What in gods name does that statement mean? Its been used a lot in this thread.

"Par for the course" means it's about normal. A par in golf is the score that you're supposed to be able to make it in.

 

[demon]

Screw this bullshit to compare the civil rights movement to a bunch of college students who warned to move and didn't is embarrassing and ridiculous.

Fuck you. It's called civil disobedience and their cause is no less valid than those of the civil rights movement. Their present circumstances may not be nearly as dire, but what are they supposed to do, wait? "Bunch of college students"....fuck off with that disingenuous shit.

 

[Zabka]

Screw this bullshit to compare the civil rights movement to a bunch of college students who warned to move and didn't is embarrassing and ridiculous.

Yeah stop comparing the police's use of non-lethal force against two nonviolent protests. One was in the past, one is taking place now!

It's totally incomparable.

 

[CHEEZMO™]

Also one is a single isolated event and one is an entire movement.

That post made me want to slap someone.

 

[.GqueB.]

Yeah stop comparing the police's use of non-lethal force against two nonviolent protests. One was in the past, one is taking place now!

It's totally incomparable.

I think people are taking offense to the fact that they are being mentioned at all in the same thought. They are technically comparable but I dont know... it still seems off.

 

[PJV3]

I think people are taking offense to the fact that they are being mentioned at all in the same thought. They are technically comparable but I dont know... it still seems off.

I think people tend to over think these things, i just took it as two similar photos of crowd/protest control, not that it was comparing peoples suffering in their day to day lives.

 

[Zabka]

Also one is a single isolated event and one is an entire movement.

That post made me want to slap someone.

Which was an isolated event? The pepper spraying incident was at a protest against tuition hikes and the police's use of force on non-violent students/professors at UC Berkeley.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

What in gods name does that statement mean? Its been used a lot in this thread.

"Par for the course" means it's about normal. A par in golf is the score that you're supposed to be able to make it in.

This

I think people tend to over think these things, i just took it as two similar photos of crowd control, not that it was comparing peoples suffering in their day to day lives.

People have been comparing the two in this thread,

 

[.GqueB.]

I think people tend to over think these things, i just took it as two similar photos of crowd control, not that it was comparing peoples suffering in their day to day lives.

I do agree with that there may be some overthinking but I think theres more to it than that if youve been following this thread. There have been a lot of people comparing the two movements and a lot of people saying they arent nearly the same and I happen to agree. So those two photos being posted anywhere near each other is strange to me.

Unless it was done mockingly. I cant even tell.

 

[NervousXtian]

Fuck you. It's called civil disobedience and their cause is no less valid than those of the civil rights movement. Their present circumstances may not be nearly as dire, but what are they supposed to do, wait? "Bunch of college students"....fuck off with that disingenuous shit.

So much anger, you need to learn to relax.. take some deep breathes..



..anyhow.. did you guys see this:

Occupy Oakland calls for Dec. 12 All-West-Coast-Ports Shutdown!
November 20th, 2011 · occupypdxer · Events, News, Solidarity Comments Off
Proposal for a Coordinated West Coast Port Shutdown, Passed With Unanimous Consensus by vote of the Occupy Oakland General Assembly 11/18/2012:

In response to coordinated attacks on the occupations and attacks on workers across the nation:

Occupy Oakland calls for the blockade and disruption of the economic apparatus of the 1% with a coordinated shutdown of ports on the entire West Coast on December 12th. The 1% has disrupted the lives of longshoremen and port truckers and the workers who create their wealth, just as coordinated nationwide police attacks have turned our cities into battlegrounds in an effort to disrupt our Occupy movement.

We call on each West Coast occupation to organize a mass mobilization to shut down its local port. Our eyes are on the continued union-busting and attacks on organized labor, in particular the rupture of Longshoremen jurisdiction in Longview Washington by the EGT. Already, Occupy Los Angeles has passed a resolution to carry out a port action on the Port Of Los Angeles on December 12th, to shut down SSA terminals, which are owned by Goldman Sachs.

Occupy Oakland expands this call to the entire West Coast, and calls for continuing solidarity with the Longshoremen in Longview Washington in their ongoing struggle against the EGT. The EGT is an international grain exporter led by Bunge LTD, a company constituted of 1% bankers whose practices have ruined the lives of the working class all over the world, from Argentina to the West Coast of the US. During the November 2nd General Strike, tens of thousands shutdown the Port Of Oakland as a warning shot to EGT to stop its attacks on Longview. Since the EGT has disregarded this message, and continues to attack the Longshoremen at Longview, we will now shut down ports along the entire West Coast.

Participating occupations are asked to ensure that during the port shutdowns the local arbitrator rules in favor of longshoremen not crossing community picket lines in order to avoid recriminations against them.
Should there be any retaliation against any workers as a result of their honoring pickets or supporting our port actions, additional solidarity actions should be prepared.
In the event of police repression of any of the mobilizations, shutdown actions may be extended to multiple days.
In Solidarity and Struggle,

Occupy Oakland

Stupid stupid idea.

 

[badcrumble]

Screw this bullshit to compare the civil rights movement to a bunch of college students who warned to move and didn't is embarrassing and ridiculous.

Do you think the black protesters weren't warned to move?

 

[demon]

I do agree with that but I think theres more to it than that if youve been following this thread. There have been a lot of people comparing the two movements and a lot of people saying they arent nearly the same and I happen to agree. So those two photos being posted anywhere near each other is strange to me.

Unless it was done mockingly. I cant even tell.

Are you referring to the Occupy movement or these students' protests against tuition hikes?

I'll assume the former, even though the latter can be considered a part of it. No, Occupy and the civil rights movement are not "nearly the same", but that is entirely irrelevant. Like I said, the Occupy movement's cause is just as valid, and in the grand scheme of things, may be even more important. That the movement hasn't found a particularly cohesive message with specific demands is beside the point. It boils down to one or two things: unregulated wreckless banking and the buying of our politicians are slowly destroying this country, and we all may be suffering greatly for it in the future. That is a problem worthy of grave concern and nation-wide protests, no question. Should the problem be ignored and the protesters written off just because the shit hasn't hit the fan quite yet? Should pepper spraying of one group be tolerated while hosing of another not be? Should modern day protesters not learn lessons and take cues from successful protest movements of the past, including that civil disobedience works however unpleasant it may be?

So much anger, you need to learn to relax.. take some deep breathes..

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Do you think the black protesters weren't warned to move?

I doubt it.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

So much anger, you need to learn to relax.. take some deep breathes..



..anyhow.. did you guys see this:



Stupid stupid idea.

ah yes let's crash the economy, what a great idea, you also have to wonder what other actions they are talking about.

 

[kame-sennin]

..anyhow.. did you guys see this:

Wow, great to see this movement staying creative and keeping up the pressure. Do you have a link?

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Wow, great to see this movement staying creative and keeping up the pressure. Do you have a link?

You would endorse an attempt to harm the American economy and the working class for the "bigger picture", wouldnt you?

 

[badcrumble]

I doubt it.

But if they were, in your world view it'd justify what happened to them, yes?

 

[Dead Man]

I think people are taking offense to the fact that they are being mentioned at all in the same thought. They are technically comparable but I dont know... it still seems off.

It's just that some people get pissed off whenever ANYTHING is is compared to the black civil rights campaign in the US.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

But if they were, in your world view it'd justify what happened to them, yes?

No, because comparing the two is beyond silly.

The we want to vote of the civil rights movement is different than we want free crap of the Occupy movement.

 

[nateeasy]

Shutting down the ports is a horrible idea.

 

[Ripclawe]

Wow, great to see this movement staying creative and keeping up the pressure. Do you have a link?

Seriously? Disrupting the economy is "staying creative?" especially expressing solidarity with one union who is trying to bust another union?

LONGVIEW, Wash. (AP) — Hundreds of Longshoremen stormed the Port of Longview early Thursday, overpowered and held security guards, damaged railroad cars, and dumped grain that is the center of a labor dispute, said Longview Police Chief Jim Duscha.

Six guards were held hostage for a couple of hours after 500 or more Longshoremen broke down gates about 4:30 a.m. and smashed windows in the guard shack, he said.

No one was hurt, and nobody has been arrested. Most of the protesters returned to their union hall after cutting brake lines and spilling grain from car at the EGT terminal, Duscha said.

The International Longshore and Warehouse Union believes it has the right to work at the facility, but the company has hired a contractor that's staffing a workforce of other union laborers.

Hitch your wagon to that lot.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Shutting down the ports is a horrible idea.

Yeah, I mean how dumb is Occupy Oakland to be filled with people thinking that's a good idea.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Seriously? Disrupting the economy is "staying creative?" especially expressing solidarity with one union who is trying to bust another union?



Hitch your wagon to that lot.

Oh so wait this is one union being pissed at another union? Lol

 

[makingmusic476]

Attacking the ports is a horrible idea. You're going to piss off a lot more people than the people you view as your actual enemy.

And a lot of that group won't be hurt by this at all.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Attacking the ports is a horrible idea. You're going to piss off a lot more people than the people you view as your actual enemy.

And a lot of that group won't be hurt by this at all.

But but Kame said it's a good idea.

 

[badcrumble]

No, because comparing the two is beyond silly.

The we want to vote of the civil rights movement is different than we want free crap of the Occupy movement.

Then let's debate the issues behind the protest, if that's what it's about for you, rather than their tactics - since you acknowledge that there are circumstances under which their tactics are valid.

 

[maharg]

No, because comparing the two is beyond silly.

The we want to vote of the civil rights movement is different than we want free crap of the Occupy movement.

You do realize that lots of people felt about the civil rights movement as you do about Occupy, right?

Do you think they were protesting because everyone agreed with them?

There's this weird thing where various people in this thread seem to think that the goal of protests is to make friends. It's not. Protests are intended to disrupt and raise the cost of business as usual to the point where the status quo needs to be re-evaluated.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

You do realize that lots of people felt about the civil rights movement as you do about Occupy, right?

Except there is a fundamental difference in the things sought by the civil rights movement and well some, since it varies from day to day, of the various disjointed Occupy cells. More so, people feel angry about every protest in human history.

Do you think they were protesting because everyone agreed with them?

Once again you can say that about every protest in history.

There's this weird thing where various people in this thread seem to think that the goal of protests is to make friends. It's not. Protests are intended to disrupt and raise the cost of business as usual to the point where the status quo needs to be re-evaluated.

Well then they cannot blame people who want to fight back against their threats and coercion.

 

[maharg]

That's pretty much my point. You seem to think that your opinion on the validity of Occupy matters, but it really doesn't.

Also, there is a "fundamental difference" between the goals of every protest movement ever. That doesn't render comparisons between them moot, especially wrt. political, police, and military response.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

That's pretty much my point. You seem to think that your opinion on the validity of Occupy matters, but it really doesn't.

But I'm the 99%.

Kidding aside, it matters unless you imply it really is free of tolerance for differing views.

 

[maharg]

Have a cookie.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Have a cookie.

You missed the rest of what I edited in before your reply.

 

[akira28]

Tolerate but don't take too seriously?

Your opinion has a value, it's just very relative. Are you going to dig in and grab a handful of rope, or are you going to stand on the sidelines and insult everyone for "bad form"? If you choose the latter, don't be surprised when everyone doesn't think too highly of your "differing views".

 

[epmode]

Then let's debate the issues behind the protest, if that's what it's about for you, rather than their tactics - since you acknowledge that there are circumstances under which their tactics are valid.

The thing is, the position of the economic and political elite responsible for this mess is largely indefensible. It's easier to just deflect the issue by focusing on the meaningless details of the protests themselves.

 

[badcrumble]

The thing is, the position of the economic and political elite responsible for this mess is largely indefensible. It's easier to just deflect the issue by focusing on the meaningless details of the protests themselves.

I know *why* he's doing it. I'm saying that he can't if he acknowledges (as he has) that these tactics are valid in other circumstances.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

I know *why* he's doing it. I'm saying that he can't if he acknowledges (as he has) that these tactics are valid in other circumstances.

Why? I had no trouble debating the issues yesterday.

 

[Dude Abides]

You missed the rest of what I edited in before your reply.

It didn't matter, because his point was that the validity of a protest's goals is irrelevant to whether a particular practice against peaceful protestors is excessive. Maybe now that someone with a red name said it you'll try a little harder to understand it. Here's hoping!

 

[badcrumble]

Why? I had no trouble debating the issues yesterday.

I'm happy to have you continue to debate the issues in here - that's the debate that we should be having.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

It didn't matter, because his point was that the validity of a protest's goals is irrelevant to whether a particular practice against peaceful protestors is excessive. Maybe now that someone with a red name said it you'll try a little harder to understand it. Here's hoping!

Hoping what? I can disagree with a mod on non-board rule issues, I mean Amirox used to be a mod.

It also means the comparisons to the civil rights movement is pointless and OWS supporters trying to get free points trying to defend the use of low level force against an unlawful assembly.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

I'm happy to have you continue to debate the issues in here - that's the debate that we should be having.

I'm all for it. Let's do it. I'm about to head off to sleep, but feel free to pick the topic and I'll follow from your first post tomorrow.

 

[Macam]

Regarding the pepper spraying incident at UC Davis this past week, here's the relevant contact info for the public officials/university involved:

Peppersprayer Lt. John Pike: (530) 752-3989
UC Davis Police Chief Annette M. Spicuzza: (530) 752-3113
Email: amspicuzza@ucdavis.edu
Patrol Watch Commander: (530) 752-1172
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/UCDavis
Complaint Form: http://police.ucdavis.edu/other/commendation_complaint_form.pdf/view

You can write and/or call to let them know your thoughts.