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Occupy Wall St - Occupy Everywhere, Occupy Together!

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Chichikov

Member
Not preferable per say - but waiting until they go take a piss/leak, get hungry or whatever - you're waiting on their schedule to do your job. Which doesn't make sense to me. And another person can just run in, smoosh in as that person leaves, and the whole cycle starts anew.

It seems like trying those other methods would end up being an exercise in futility, all the while giving the protesters (who I think were protesting illegally?) a level of consideration they wouldn't give to someone else committing a crime, misdemeanor or no.
I personally would take law enforcement inconvenience over pepper spraying unarmed and nonthreatening civilians in a political rally.

Let me ask you something else, would you say the same if that was a political cause you supported?
and I'll quote myself from the other page -
Think of political causes that are close to your heart, do you never see yourself fighting for them to the extent of sitting down holding hands while refusing an order from a campus police to move?
 

Kinitari

Black Canada Mafia
I personally would take law enforcement inconvenience over pepper spraying unarmed and nonthreatening civilians in a political rally.

I think there are avenues for protest that don't break the law, and that those should be used.

Let me ask you something else, would you say the same if that was a political cause you supported?
and I'll quote myself from the other page -
Think of political causes that are close to your heart, do you never see yourself fighting for them to the extent of sitting down holding hands while refusing an order from a campus police to move?

I support this political cause - it's not extremely close to my heart, but I think the underlying message is an important one. It's a little bit better in Canada, so that's probably why it's not such a dramatic issue for me, but I understand and appreciate the idea that the political process has been made a mockery, orchestrated by those who don't have the interest of the populace in mind.

Does that mean that I give the OWS protesters more leeway in their methodology? No, the opposite, I want them to be better than that. I want them to do everything so by the book, so that no one can say a single thing against them, and I would love a more unified and singular message, clearly and constantly drummed out.
 
So just because they were asked to move and didn't gives Police the right to pepper spray them even though the police is claiming they did it in Self Defense, because apparently they felt threatened by a group of students lying on the ground doing nothing but sitting there. Police clad in full riot gear felt threatened by them. No threats were made, they were just scared of there being soo many students around them.

So back during the Civil Rights movement police brutality was justified too because not all the marches undertook were with legal permission.

I think there are avenues for protest that don't break the law, and that those should be used.

So you disagree with the Civil Rights movement?
 

Kinitari

Black Canada Mafia
So just because they were asked to move and didn't gives Police the right to pepper spray them even though the police is claiming they did it in Self Defense, because apparently they felt threatened by a group of students lying on the ground doing nothing but sitting there. Police clad in full riot gear felt threatened by them. No threats were made, they were just scared of there being soo many students around them.

So back during the Civil Rights movement police brutality was justified too because not all the marches undertook were with legal permission.

So you disagree with the Civil Rights movement?

The civil rights movement was a completely different era. To poorly quote Fresh Prince of Bel-Air, they blew open some doors, and now we can just walk through them. I'd like to think in this day and age, we don't have to do the same things we had to 60 years ago to get the word out, to get the support of people, to get the message across.

And you make it sound like a different scenario than it actually was - I agree, if they want to argue that they felt threatened, it's bullshit. The actual reason has plenty of merit, as far as I see it - illegally occupying a location, the job of police officers to remove them, police officers tried other methods and shouldn't be made to wait around all day to find other solutions that may or may not work.
 

Zabka

Member
The cops were called in to take down the tent city that was being built. The tents were broken down before the police arrived and no tents were taken.

The police claim they were trapped by the protesters when they attempted to leave and that's why they had to pepper spray / arrest them, but it's clear from the video that was not the case.
 
lol at people defending the UC Davis police actions. They were trapped? Really? The police could have left at anytime. I mean one cop steps over the "blockade". They just don't want people protesting on their campus and will do anything it takes to make sure that doesn't happen.

The police's action at most of these occupy movements has been pretty dumb. If they would just ignore the protesters, the movement would probably die out by January. Sadly, they continue to provoke them and bring attention to the movement. It keeps bringing people back because they aren't going to be denied their rights. At first I thought this movement would be over in a month, but I am really guessing it will make it to the beginning of the 2012 election.

I will also say that at first I didn't really care too much about this protest. Sure, it is nice to protest income inequality, but who is going to take it seriously. Now if that I see the way that police are trying to deny people the right to protest and taking shady actions to do that, I am in full support of them and hope this movement succeeds in making so sort of change if that is still possibly in our broken political system.

Would have been awesome to see the students whoop that cops ass. Cant believe they didnt lose their composure.

They shouldn't do that with this type of protest because it will backfire. Why attack the police? Just protest and let the police takes actions that hurts their image and gets them in trouble. Once you start attack police you will lose control of your message and the whole point of the protest will be lost.
 
lol at people defending the UC Davis police actions. They were trapped? Really? The police could have left at anytime. I mean one cop steps over the "blockade". They just don't want people protesting on their campus and will do anything it takes to make sure that doesn't happen.

The police's action at most of these occupy movements has been pretty dumb. If they would just ignore the protesters, the movement would probably die out by January. Sadly, they continue to provoke them and bring attention to the movement. It keeps bringing people back because they aren't going to be denied their rights. At first I thought this movement would be over in a month, but I am really guessing it will make it to the beginning of the 2012 election.

I will also say that at first I didn't really care too much about this protest. Sure, it is nice to protest income inequality, but who is going to take it seriously. Now if that I see the way that police are trying to deny people the right to protest and taking shady actions to do that, I am in full support of them and hope this movement succeeds in making so sort of change if that is still possibly in our broken political system.

the bolded mentality is the very fundamental issue we're trying to fix. it's more than simple structured inequality, it's a system that is so lopsided and hopeless for those it's not fixed towards that we have this mentality of 'fuck it, we all know it's fucked so let's not do anything about it'
 

Cyrillus

Member
we have this mentality of 'fuck it, we all know it's fucked so let's not do anything about it'
Not even that, but many in this thread (and in the country) have the attitude of "let's laugh at those who get beaten/pepper-sprayed/arrested for trying to even say that shit's fucked up."
 
Hmm, that's interesting to hear as really in the UK they're not really getting much coverage at all. I suspect the police handling of the matter will get some coverage. The only time I can remember it getting coverage in the UK was when it started, and when they asked people to move in London.

Daily Mail (LOL) was more interested in Michael Moore's income and 2nd house.
 
Seems 2 UC Davis police officers have been placed on administrative leave. Hope the are fired. Best way to take care of corrupt cops, other than jailing them, is taking away their jobs and disrupting their lives.
 
Who is talking though? Could just be UK Media, but they're not really talking about the issues. They just talk about the flash points, which is usually how the police are handling the protests.

Be interesting to see how long it can last.

I will admit I was surprised to see the OccupyNewcastle guys get a bit bigger. Though confused as to why the council had caged them off from everyone.
 
Any arguing over police or the protesters is a red herring.

We should really be talking about how the system in this country is fundamentally broken, our representatives are bought and how it can be fixed in a rational manner.

It's upsetting that this thread has morphed into a debate over civic police tactics. You think mayors of major cities have control over the actions of every single policeman? Who exactly are we blaming here?

Let's move on from this.

Personally, I'm blaming city mayors directly. They may not be in control of every officers individual actions, but when you see the same tactics being used in every city, by multiple officers, it's clear that it's coming down the chain of command. The fact that the white shirts - supervisors - have been the most aggressive supports this.

Retired Captain Ray Lewis elaborates on where the orders are coming from:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocdnl4XlTOU&list=FL4uSdxDpvjUFqAdn7LJm_UQ&index=1&feature=plpp_video
 

Joe

Member
Hmm, that's interesting to hear as really in the UK they're not really getting much coverage at all. I suspect the police handling of the matter will get some coverage. The only time I can remember it getting coverage in the UK was when it started, and when they asked people to move in London.

Daily Mail (LOL) was more interested in Michael Moore's income and 2nd house.

unfortunately most media can't be trusted for anything, especially regarding protests about income inequality.

i think most protesters are smart enough to realize that they should not react to their media portrayal and also realize they need to be in this for the long haul (years). sustainability is absolutely key here, and is my biggest question mark/worry.
 
Who is talking though? Could just be UK Media, but they're not really talking about the issues. They just talk about the flash points, which is usually how the police are handling the protests.

Be interesting to see how long it can last.

I will admit I was surprised to see the OccupyNewcastle guys get a bit bigger. Though confused as to why the council had caged them off from everyone.

us, with eachother and ourselves. it's now on the collective consciousness regardless of whether of it's in mainstream media or not. though that would help
 
I might be talking about it, but its more along the lines of 'why' and not the why they want me to be thinking more along the lines of 'Why..?'

What's the point?
What's their aim?
Is anyone noticing?
Is anything changing?
How long before they give up?
How long before something changes?

I mean fair play to those involved, I couldn't do it - I wouldn't want to do it, and that's not because I'm rich. I'm lazy and I don't have much time for the cold. Also, I don't actually mind the situation I'm in.
I'm not well off, but I'm not stinking poor either. I'm somewhat comfortable. Would I like more money? Sure, who wouldn't. But I wouldn't go out of my way to cause radical change to get it. If I earn it through work - fair enough. If I got lucky and won it - fair enough.

I guess I'm part of the problem more than anything. Apathy.
 
I might be talking about it, but its more along the lines of 'why' and not the why they want me to be thinking more along the lines of 'Why..?'

What's the point?
What's their aim?
Is anyone noticing?
Is anything changing?
How long before they give up?
How long before something changes?

I mean fair play to those involved, I couldn't do it - I wouldn't want to do it, and that's not because I'm rich. I'm lazy and I don't have much time for the cold. Also, I don't actually mind the situation I'm in.
I'm not well off, but I'm not stinking poor either. I'm somewhat comfortable. Would I like more money? Sure, who wouldn't. But I wouldn't go out of my way to cause radical change to get it. If I earn it through work - fair enough. If I got lucky and won it - fair enough.

I guess I'm part of the problem more than anything. Apathy.

well it's not about merely having more money for it's sake, these have to do with structural issues that disproportionally reward greed and manipulation while hurting us.

You can see it the world over; the Western banking system is as crooked as it gets. With it and the mentality of systematised greed we can somehow have things like broken healthcare and education systems be justified.

i'd love to answer all the questions but this;

How long before they give up?

as long as the issue remains, the discontent will always be under the surface, ready to emerge and take place in the dialectics in history. This movement could very well fail by summer, any thing is possible, but the issues won't go away, and something will emerge to take it's place.

but again, it's been 2 months. and in those months it's been a resounding success. movements often take YEARS to have their goals in mind reached, so we are on the right track.
 
who cares? he's trying to justify his statements rather than just through them out there to piss people off. it's fine, it's discussion.

i disagree completely but that's the point of dialogue

Just wanted to say I agree with this. Nora's views are antithetical to mine, but he is backing them up in a polite and well articulated fashion. This kind of thing is good for the thread.
 
To the people saying it was 'unjustified' - what would you have the officers do? Shrug their shoulders, walk away and say "sorry, nothing I can do, deal with it campus" ? This is a serious question, I have heard people say "they shouldn't have pepper sprayed, it was just a misdemeanour" - but what are their other options?

I think in America you aught not be able to just shut down things you don't like. College kids holding a demonstration on campus aren't detrimental to anyone. They didn't even shut the campus down. They're expressing their freedom of speech. If that's inconvenient, too bad. You can't suppress free speech because it's annoying (this isn't directed at you specifically).

Video of the aforementioned silent walk by UC Davis Chancellor Katehi

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=CZ0t9ez_EGI

Pretty intense. I wonder how long it will take for her to be fired.
 
If you talk about anything vaguely related to the economy or our political system, people will claim the movement sparked the debate.

LOL

http://thinkprogress.org/special/20...amendment-to-ban-corporate-money-in-politics/

In one of the greatest signs yet that the 99 Percenters are having an impact, Rep. Ted Deutch (D-FL), a member of the House Judiciary Committee, today introduced an amendment that would ban corporate money in politics and end corporate personhood once and for all.

Deutch’s amendment, called the Outlawing Corporate Cash Undermining the Public Interest in our Elections and Democracy (OCCUPIED) Amendment

Is there a connection or am I reaching?
 

Bealost

Member
I haven't really been following the movement much, although I really wish I had been. I just watched a couple videos on youtube of the incident, and they were...emotionally stirring. After reading about the last page of the thread I thought I had "sided" with the officers in this case. But once I watched the video it disturbs me that something like that can happen. It isn't overly violent, but it certainly seems like an abuse of power. From what I hear being pepper sprayed is NOT a pleasant experience, and as far as I'm concerned in that situation it should have been a last resort. The police are there to protect and serve the population. The protesters were clearly not causing immediate harm to anybody, I see no justification for the use of force.

Can what the protesters were doing even be called a disruption of the peace?

I admit that I don't know the whole story here, but I still feel ashamed that in this day and age and in this country the use of force by those in power is still "justified" just because they don't like whats happening. I have some stuff to do this evening, but I will be back tonight reading about this more.

Thanks for sparking an internal debate guys, I'm looking forward to reading more.
 

demon

I don't mean to alarm you but you have dogs on your face
There is a connection. No need to be a horse's ass about it.

The fact that a politician up for reelection has cashed in on this movement is no surprise.

Cashing in on a movement, introducing legislation in response to constituents' demands, who gives a shit?
 
There is a connection. No need to be a horse's ass about it.

The fact that a politician up for reelection has cashed in on this movement is no surprise.

Yea, I was being a horse's ass. But this was your original post:

If you talk about anything vaguely related to the economy or our political system, people will claim the movement sparked the debate.

In the link I posted, it is clear that the movement was directly responsible for the proposed amendment. To now argue that a politician is 'cashing in' on the movement (I don't disagree) is moving the goal posts. It's going to take a long time for the movement to make real change, but the first step is starting the conversation - exposing the corruption of our political and financial system. That has undoubtedly already begun. That is a success in and of itself.

Who is talking about it at a national level?

Obama was asked at a press conference why none of the bankers responsible for the financial crisis went to jail.
 
Oh right, had no idea Obama had been asked a question. However, I have a feeling he had been asked that same question before the protest started. Did he answer it?
 
Oh right, had no idea Obama had been asked a question. However, I have a feeling he had been asked that same question before the protest started. Did he answer it?

He said that the what was done on Wall Street might have been unethical, but he wasn't sure it was illegal - it was, they committed fraud. I was just looking for the clip, I couldn't find it. But here's audio of him being asked about the movement:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4mhatsvC5U
 

Wazzim

Banned
There were protests today in the Netherlands.
One organised by the biggest union about public transport getting cuts and the Occupy Amsterdam people got some extra protesters for the usual stuff today.
Many kids, many older people and many teenagers. The socialist parties were there too of course.
 
Since the video of the assault has gone viral, I will assume that most of you have seen the shocking footage. Let's take a look at the equally outrageous explanations and justifications that have come from UC Davis authorities.

UC Davis Chancellor Linda P.B. Katehi sent a letter to the university last night. Chancellor Katehi tells us that:

"The group was informed in writing... that if they did not dismantle the encampment, it would have to be removed... However a number of protestors refused our warning, offering us no option but to ask the police to assist in their removal."

No other options? The list of options is endless. To begin with, the chancellor could have thanked them for their sense of civic duty. The occupation could have been turned into a teach-in on the role of public education in this country. There could have been a call for professors to hold classes on the quad. The list of "other options" is endless.

Chancellor Katehi asserts that "the encampment raised serious health and safety concerns." Really? Twenty tents on the quad "raised serious health and safety concerns?" Has the chancellor been to a frat party lately? Or a football game? Talk about "serious health and safety concerns."

How about this for another option: three years ago there was a very similar occupation of the quad at Columbia University in New York City by students protesting the way the expansion of the university was displacing residents in the neighborhood. There was a core group of twenty or thirty students there around the clock. At the high points there were 200-300. The administration met with the students and held serious discussions about their concerns. And after a couple of weeks the protest had run its course and the students took the tents down. The most severe action that was even contemplated on the part of the university was to expel students who were hunger striking, under a rule that allows the school to expel students who are considered a threat to themselves. But no one was actually expelled.

Remember when universities used to expel students instead of spray them with chemical agents?

Throughout my life I have seen, and sometimes participated in, peaceful civil disobedience in which sitting and linking arms was understood by citizens as a posture that indicates, in the clearest possible way available, protestors' intent to be non-violent. If example, if you look through training materials from groups like the Quakers, the various pacifist organization and centers, and Christian organizations, it is universally taught that sitting and linking arms is the best way to de-escalate any confrontation between police and people exercising their first amendment right to public speech.

Likewise, for over 30 years I have seen police universally understand this gesture. Many many times I have seen police treat protestors who sat and linked arms when told they must disperse or face arrest as a very routine matter: the police then approach the protestors individually and ask them if, upon arrest, they are going to walk of their own accord or not the police will have to carry them. In fact, this has become so routine that I have often wondered if this form of protest had become so scripted as to have lost most of its meaning.

No more.

What we have seen in the last two weeks around the country, and now at Davis, is a radical departure from the way police have handled protest in this country for half a century. Two days ago an 84-year-old woman was sprayed with a chemical assault agent in Seattle in the same manner our students at Davis were maced. A Hispanic New York City Councilman was brutally thrown to the ground, arrested, and held cuffed in a police van for two hours for no reason at all, and was never even told why he was arrested. And I am sure you all know about former Marine Lance Cpl. Scott Olsen, who suffered a fractured skull after police hit him with a tear gas canister, then rolled a flash bomb into the group of citizens trying to give him emergency medical care.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bob-ostertag/uc-davis-protest_b_1103039.html
 
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And lol @ Police were encircled and felt threatened...they didn't spray the people around them. They sprayed a group of students lying on the ground doing nothing.



Apart from everything else, UC Davis is a PUBLIC University.



Tell me how they were affecting the Safety of Students or the campus?

Tell how the two of those are anything alike.

Nora sounds eerily similar to Manos.

It's funny you say ignore Manos, yet you can't stop talking about me. Lol
 

Slavik81

Member
Who is talking though? Could just be UK Media, but they're not really talking about the issues. They just talk about the flash points, which is usually how the police are handling the protests.
You will never find detailed discussion unless you seek it out.
 
So my school's Occupy made some progress today. I think we might actually do some stuff. 4 of us went over to Occupy DC afterwards and made it to their GA. The Declaration Committee was supposed to announce their official declaration today, but apparently they still aren't done revising it yet. Apparently the first draft that focused mainly on economic issues didn't have enough language in it about specific disadvantaged groups in it, so they're going back and adding more of those demands in. :-/

Also Occupy DC's Black Caucus had its second meeting today, which I checked out, but I gave up on it after they couldn't even agree on procedure... On the positive side though, I am pleased to see how well the black community is represented in Occupy DC as compared to some of the other Occupy's.
 
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