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[Alpha-Bromega]

welcome to the thread crocmother

and please guys, just stop replying to Manos. put him and minus on ignore if we want even an inkling of civil discourse (which DOES include differences of opinions, just not outright lies and pettiness)

This Occupy movement could be wiped out in every city, but the idea that change is needed isn't going anywhere. Another movement in some form or another would just pop up somewhere else.

yep, it's a collective urge towards something better that will manifest itself in one way or another

 

[Barrett2]

Any update on that UC Davis cop? I have to assume he will at least be put on administrative leave by Monday?

 

[Karma Kramer]

I get the impression that momentum is swinging in favor of OWS now.

 

[CrankyKong]

I get the impression that momentum is swinging in favor of OWS now.

How so?

 

[Rocket Scientist]

The cleanup at zucotti and other places will prove to have helped everyone organize better.

 

[statham]

How so?

people are taking notice, this is one of several
http://teddeutch.house.gov/UploadedFiles/DEUTCH_036_xml.pdf
http://thinkprogress.org/special/20...amendment-to-ban-corporate-money-in-politics/

not perfect, but a start

 

[alstein]

I get the impression that momentum is swinging in favor of OWS now.

It's going to keep swinging back and forth. What's key is how this movement looks in April, if it holds over the winter, it's going to be central to the election.

 

[Kosmo]

Curious that there hasn't been any talk of the OWS being brown up because:

http://reason.com/blog/2011/11/16/obama-administration-allegedly-helped-co

But in a recent interview with the BBC," Oakland Mayor Jean Quan mentioned she was on a conference call just before the recent wave of crackdowns began.

"I was recently on a conference call of 18 cities who had the same situation, where what had started as a political movement and a political encampment ended up being an encampment that was no longer in control of the people who started them."

Is that to indicate that OWS was coordinated for some reason

Spoiler

aka to help pass a jobs bill

and once all the hippies and vagrants showed up it was time to break it up.

 

[Chichikov]

Curious that there hasn't been any talk of the OWS being brown up because:



Is that to indicate that OWS was coordinated for some reason

Spoiler

aka to help pass a jobs bill

and once all the hippies and vagrants showed up it was time to break it up.

OWS never wanted to be in control of the people participating in it.
In fact, it never wanted to have the mechanism to enable such control.
Also, why do you think it's related to Obama's jobs bill?
I've been to many times to OWS rallies (never camped though) in 3 cities and I don't think I met a single person who thought the focus should that bill.

 

[jorma]

Any update on that UC Davis cop? I have to assume he will at least be put on administrative leave by Monday?

But his boss is already on record claiming that he was just defending himself because he was surrounded by protestors..

 

[Bad_Boy]

Don't fall for it.

I think it's working. As long as no one responds to him, this thread can go places.

 

[MC Safety]

I really hope it doesn't become SOP for American police to use pepper-spray on people who commit misdemeanours. I do enjoy the occasional jaywalk.

Stop.

 

[Karma Kramer]

The officer arrested in the pic above, Captain Lewis, talks about his arrest:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/45366571#45366571

Just watched this... great interview

 

[Nora Kisaragi]

Haha, are you guys still talking about the Occupy UC Davis pepper spray event? That pepper spraying was completely justified.

 

[teruterubozu]

I get the impression that momentum is swinging in favor of OWS now.

eh, if the pepper spray incident happened earlier in the protests, then maybe. Now that everyone's sick of it, the incident isn't as blown up as it should be. The timing by the police is very calculated in how they move against the crowds gauged by public sympathy factors. None of this is randomly orchestrated.

 

[Karma Kramer]

eh, if the pepper spray incident happened earlier in the protests, then maybe. Now that everyone's sick of it, the incident isn't as blown up as it should be. The timing by the police is very calculated in how they move against the crowds gauged by public sympathy factors. None of this is randomly orchestrated.

Last I checked its the most popular article on cnn.com

 

[Nora Kisaragi]

eh, if the pepper spray incident happened earlier in the protests, then maybe. Now that everyone's sick of it, the incident isn't as blown up as it should be. The timing by the police is very calculated in how they move against the crowds gauged by public sympathy factors. None of this is randomly orchestrated.

wow, ok. If you think that's the reason nobody's paying scrutiny to this, it seems I need to reiterate something.

1.) The protesters that were pepper sprayed were breaking the law.
2.) The protesters encircled the police officers and trapped them, they could not leave.
3.) The protesters ignored officer requests to move so they could leave
4.) The protesters resisted the officer's physical commands to move, the woman pulls her sleeve back and a man curls into a ball when officers try to get them to move, warranting more force.

The pepper spray was justified in four different ways. They deserved every bit of it they got.

 

[teruterubozu]

Last I checked its the most popular article on cnn.com

The occupy movement also makes the front of foxnews.com, drudgereport.com, etc.
So?

 

[Karma Kramer]

wow, ok. If you think that's the reason nobody's paying scrutiny to this, it seems I need to reiterate something.

1.) The protesters that were pepper sprayed were breaking the law.
2.) The protesters encircled the police officers and trapped them, they could not leave.
3.) The protesters ignored officer requests to move so they could leave
4.) The protesters resisted the officer's physical commands to move, the woman pulls her sleeve back and a man curls into a ball when officers try to get them to move, warranting more force.

The pepper spray was justified in four different ways. They deserved every bit of it they got.

Any sources for all this?

The occupy movement also makes the front of foxnews.com, drudgereport.com, etc.
So?

Which means its still relevant enough that opposition to it is strong. Eventually people are gonna get bored talking about the OWS protestors and the police and start to examine injustice in our financial institutions and corruption in our government. Its a good time for a movement like OWS. Politicians are very unpopular right now and the economy is in bad shape.

 

[Nora Kisaragi]

Any sources for all this?

Sure

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57328289/outrage-over-police-pepper-spraying-students/

UC Davis Police Chief Annette Spicuzza said the decision to use pepper spray was made at the scene.

"The students had encircled the officers," she said Saturday. "They needed to exit. They were looking to leave but were unable to get out."

"When you start picking up human bodies, you risk hurting them," Kelly said. "Bodies don't have handles on them."

After reviewing the video, Kelly said he observed at least two cases of "active resistance" from protesters. In one instance, a woman pulls her arm back from an officer. In the second instance, a protester curls into a ball. Each of those actions could have warranted more force, including baton strikes and pressure-point techniques.

You can see the video for yourself here; you can watch the protesters actively ignore the officers request to move so that they could exit, and you can watch them physically resist, warranting more force.

Justified in four different ways, those protesters are a disgrace to the occupy movement.

The policeman stepped over them to spray them, its hardly a blockade.

Irrelevant, what the protesters did was not only a public disturbance or blocking a main campus road, they were also interfering with the duties of a police officer, they could have been cited as breaking multiple laws if the police wanted to: by just being pepper sprayed they got off easy.

Besides, just because they let one officer through that had a can of pepper spray doesn't mean they would let them all out, and police shouldn't have to walk over people just to leave. That's a horrid defense in my opinion.

 

[PJV3]

The policeman stepped over them to spray them, its hardly a blockade.

 

[Chichikov]

wow, ok. If you think that's the reason nobody's paying scrutiny to this, it seems I need to reiterate something.

1.) The protesters that were pepper sprayed were breaking the law.
2.) The protesters encircled the police officers and trapped them, they could not leave.
3.) The protesters ignored officer requests to move so they could leave
4.) The protesters resisted the officer's physical commands to move, the woman pulls her sleeve back and a man curls into a ball when officers try to get them to move, warranting more force.

The pepper spray was justified in four different ways. They deserved every bit of it they got.

1. I'm not 100% sure on how squatting laws applies to the campus, but at most, it's a misdemeanor, nothing that warrants pepper spraying in my mind. are you supporting pepper spraying on all misdemeanors or just for people you disagree with politically?
2,4 I don't know what video are you watching, but I see none of this here. do you honestly believe the officers were in danger? and do you honestly believe that under such condition pepper spraying is warranted?
3. so in your mind, ignoring an officer warrant pepper spraying? really?

Finally, do you really don't think there is a place in a democratic society for such demonstrations?
And I don't mean the cause, it's fine to disagree with the cause, I'm talking about the tactics.
Can you never envision in your mind a situation that you would consider serious enough to warrant such political rally?
Think of political causes that are closed to your heart, do you never see yourself fighting for them to the extent of sitting down holding hands while refusing an order from a campus police to move?

p.s.
When the freedoms of those you dislike are attacked, your freedom to be disliked is being attacked too. (Salman Rushdie).

 

[Karma Kramer]

Sure

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57328289/outrage-over-police-pepper-spraying-students/




You can see the video for yourself here; you can watch the protesters actively ignore the officers request to move so that they could exit, and you can watch them physically resist, warranting more force.

Justified in four different ways, those protesters are a disgrace to the occupy movement.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AdDLhPwpp4

In this video I see very clear gaps in the crowd and see police chilling in the background. I have to download a new version of flash to see the video you posted.

 

[teruterubozu]

Which means its still relevant enough that opposition to it is strong. Eventually people are gonna get bored talking about the OWS protestors and the police and start to examine injustice in our financial institutions and corruption in our government. Its a good time for a movement like OWS. Politicians are very unpopular right now and the economy is in bad shape.

What else are the news organizations going to talk about? Honestly, the occupiers make it sound like a GIANT movement and the conservative radio shows make it sound like vast stretches of shantytown like tents cities stretching for blocks. When in actuality barely anybody really sees any sign of it on a day to day basis, even New Yorkers (I was just there for 5 days, never saw one protester).

Ratings, ratings, ratings. That's all the media (on both political sides) gets out of this.

 

[Nora Kisaragi]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AdDLhPwpp4

In this video I see very clear gaps in the crowd and see police chilling in the background. I have to download a new version of flash to see the video you posted.

LOL. that video starts exactly when the pepper spray happens, that gives you no background information on why the spray actually took place.

What a biased video, it starts and ends exactly where it works best for the protesters

Once again, here is reality, it shows what happens BEFORE the pepper spray happens. You can see the protesters actively resist police officer commands to leave.

Justified and you should not ignore this.

2,4 I don't know what video are you watching, but I see none of this here.

You didn't see none of that there because the person who uploaded that video cut out the part that justified the actions you saw. That video was biased.

In the actual video you can see officers preparing pepper spray and actively warning the protesters they would use it if they did not move. They had plenty of warning, and it was completely justified as they ignored officer requests in every other way. It was their last resort.

 

[VistraNorrez]

2.) The protesters encircled the police officers and trapped them, they could not leave.

Yes they could. In fact the officer who pepper sprayed them left the circle. Plenty of videos show him stepping over the protesters with no problem.

 

[Karma Kramer]

What else are the news organizations going to talk about? Honestly, the occupiers make it sound like a GIANT movement and the conservative radio shows make it sound like vast stretches of shantytown like tents cities stretching for blocks. When in actuality barely anybody really sees any sign of it on a day to day basis, even New Yorkers (I was just there for 5 days, never saw one protester).

Ratings, ratings, ratings. That's all the media (on both political sides) gets out of this.

You sound like you are upset OWS gets attention. Do you not agree with any form of financial reform or campaign finance reform?

 

[Karma Kramer]

LOL. that video starts exactly when the pepper spray happens, that gives you no background information on why the spray actually took place.

What a biased video, it starts and ends exactly where it works best for the protesters

Once again, here is reality, it shows what happens BEFORE the pepper spray happens. You can see the protesters actively resist police officer commands to leave.

Justified and you should not ignore this.


You didn't see none of that there because the person who uploaded that video cut out the part that justified the actions you saw. That video was biased.

I'm not trying to ignore it, I just hate installing new updates of flash on this computer lol. I think Chichikov covers pretty much everything I would say about this. I will take a look at the video you posted soon.

 

[teruterubozu]

You sound like you are upset OWS gets attention. Do you not agree with any form of financial reform or campaign finance reform?

Actually I don't feel one way or another. Just observations. Of course there are financial wrongs in this country, but I'm a 70s child so I've seen enough youth versus older generation resentment over many decades to really take the OWS seriously. I hope that one day they can come out with a mature voice that speaks across all generations, not just to today's youth.

 

[Wazzim]

Nora, your video doesn't make this more disgusting lol. There is no excuse, just cut the shit man. Fucking GAF and their defense force for all that shit.

Actually I don't feel one way or another. Just observations. Of course there are financial wrongs in this country, but I'm a 70s child so I've seen enough youth versus older generation resentment over many decades to really take the OWS seriously. I hope that one day they can come out with a mature voice that speaks across all generations, not just to today's youth.

Actually, there are many older people protesting too. Not only in New York but all over the world: London, Amsterdam and Frankfurt all show older people protesting too.

 

[Karma Kramer]

Nora, I watched that video, and it does not appear clear to me at all that the police were trapped inside from some kind of circle of students. It seems like they could leave if they wanted to. Why would the protestors want to force the police not to leave???

 

[Nora Kisaragi]

There is no excuse, just cut the shit man. Fucking GAF and their defense force for all that shit.

If you want to say "i have no excuse", please put evidence on the table that proves me otherwise. That's how you build a credible case, not "OMG here's something terrible that happened, the police officers are in the wrong, but i won't tell you why!"

Look:
1.) The protesters were creating a public disturbance and blocking off a main road of the campus
2.) The protesters had encircled the officers
3.) They had plenty of warning that the use of pepper spray would be applied, you can see the officer preparing it beforehand.
4.) They ignored verbal commands and physical commands to move
5.) Clearly, the pepper spray was their last resort. And that's protocol, pepper spray SHOULD be a last resort, and in this case it WAS their last resort. I see nothing but standard police protocol.

If you want to hate on the law and police officers, That's O-K. But if you're going to say that the officers broke protocol, you're going to have to start presenting evidence.

Additionally, not only were they trapping the officers, but they were also blocking off the road and creating a public disturbance, a violation of the law.

The fact of the matter is the protesters HAD to move, but didn't. They paid the price.

 

[Alpha-Bromega]

there was in no way 'encirclement' of the police officers. the one guy literally just stepped over them. they were passively, peacefully, no harm doing anything.

the only time it's an issue is when the police come.

there's no justification for pepper spraying people laying dormant together.

1.) The protesters were creating a public disturbance and blocking off a main road of the campus. -does not justify use of force. it was a sidewalk, for one.
2.) The protesters had encircled the officers. that's not an encirclement, but one officer to stepped over a group of sitting students
3.) They had plenty of warning that the use of pepper spray would be applied, you can see the officer preparing it beforehand. i can warn you i can shoot you, or punch you, or beat you, but in the end neither are ok
4.) They ignored verbal commands and physical commands this is the point of a peaceful demonstration and an integral part of a civil society.
5.) Clearly, the pepper spray was their last resort. And that's protocol, pepper spray SHOULD be a last resort, and in this case it WAS their last resort. I see nothing but standard police protocol. the last resort is used here falsely; if the police were being assaulted on all sides and fearing for their lives, a last resort would have been a defensive measure of this sort. pepper spraying dormant peaceful protestors is not a last resort of anything. Again, there's nothing 'last resort' about pepper spraying people who are peacefully protesting and who otherwise would cause no harm except inconvenience

 

[Chichikov]

You didn't see none of that there because the person who uploaded that video cut out the part that justified the actions you saw. That video was biased.

In the actual video you can see officers preparing pepper spray and actively warning the protesters they would use it if they did not move. They had plenty of warning, and it was completely justified as they ignored officer requests in every other way. It was their last resort.

I didn't see anything radically different in the video you posted, I still see student sitting on the ground, holding hands, not moving, while a cop pepper spray them.
Is there another video?
But more importantly, even had they encircled him before the video was shot, that doesn't change the fact that is was not in self defense; I don't think it's justified to use such measure for retribution or punishment for things that happened in the past.

p.s.
What about the points in my post?

 

[travisbickle]

We can't allow unorthodox thinking at national academia, spray them down!!!


Time for another 1968: Year of the barricades.

 

[Karma Kramer]

Nora sounds eerily similar to Manos.

 

[Alpha-Bromega]

Nora sounds eerily like Manos.

who cares? he's trying to justify his statements rather than just through them out there to piss people off. it's fine, it's discussion.

i disagree completely but that's the point of dialogue

 

[Nora Kisaragi]

there's no justification for pepper spraying people laying dormant together.

Why not? This happened on private property (a college campus) and they were told to leave. Staying was not an option. If this happened on public property, you might have a case.

 

[teruterubozu]

who cares? he's trying to justify his statements rather than just through them out there to piss people off. it's fine, it's discussion.

i disagree completely but that's the point of dialogue

Seriously. The entire thread can be divided into Manos-types versus everyone else. Not a whole lot of variety in between.

 

[PJV3]

I'm suprised so many americans support the police behaving like that, i thought there was a culture of gun ownership to keep the state off peoples backs, and here you are getting angry that a few kids are challenging authority by sitting down in the street.

I realise that i've worded that terribly.

 

[Alucrid]

I'm suprised so many americans support the police behaving like that, i thought there was a culture of gun ownership to keep the state off peoples backs, and here you are getting angry that a few kids are challenging authority by sitting down in the street.

Yes, every American is required, as their patriotic duty, to own at least three firearms consisting of a handgun, shotgun and rifle in order to fight the states lest they turn us all into mindless fascist zombies.

 

[arab]

i'd rather have civil disobedience than a police state

 

[PJV3]

Yes, every American is required, as their patriotic duty, to own at least three firearms consisting of a handgun, shotgun and rifle in order to fight the states lest they turn us all into mindless fascist zombies.

i was really on about the people who are anti OWS are usually banging on about people being opressed by big government and officialdom. not very well i must admit.

 

[Karma Kramer]

who cares? he's trying to justify his statements rather than just through them out there to piss people off. it's fine, it's discussion.

i disagree completely but that's the point of dialogue

Its not important you are right. I am just suspicious that Manos is some kind of PR person. Though I have nothing concrete to support this, his posting rate, disturbing lack of empathy for the protestors, and ability to frame the discussion and ignore discussions Bill O Reilly style comes across to me as someone who has a bigger agenda. But its probably just trolling. I am just amazed by his determination lol.

 

[Kinitari]

Why not? This happened on private property (a college campus) and they were told to leave. Staying was not an option. If this happened on public property, you might have a case.

If you want to give more validity to your argument (which I can almost understand) you need to drop this... the officers were being harassed/encircled/blocked by the protesters argument. That's not why the pepper spray was used, it was because they wanted them to move - if their job was to move the protesters, and the protesters were there illegally, and verbal/physical requests to leave the location were ignored - that argument holds up on it's own.

To the people saying it was 'unjustified' - what would you have the officers do? Shrug their shoulders, walk away and say "sorry, nothing I can do, deal with it campus" ? This is a serious question, I have heard people say "they shouldn't have pepper sprayed, it was just a misdemeanour" - but what are their other options?

 

[travisbickle]

Why not? This happened on private property (a college campus) and they were told to leave. Staying was not an option. If this happened on public property, you might have a case.

They're university students on a university campus. I don't understand why they wouldn't allow students the opportunity to exercise non-violent political expression.

I think the university system is of no use to 99% of the country.
I think the political system is of no use to 99% of the country
I think the current capitalist system is of no use to 99% of the country.

 

[cartoon_soldier]

And lol @ Police were encircled and felt threatened...they didn't spray the people around them. They sprayed a group of students lying on the ground doing nothing.

Why not? This happened on private property (a college campus) and they were told to leave. Staying was not an option. If this happened on public property, you might have a case.

Apart from everything else, UC Davis is a PUBLIC University.

If you want to give more validity to your argument (which I can almost understand) you need to drop this... the officers were being harassed/encircled/blocked by the protesters argument. That's not why the pepper spray was used, it was because they wanted them to move - if their job was to move the protesters, and the protesters were there illegally, and verbal/physical requests to leave the location were ignored - that argument holds up on it's own.

To the people saying it was 'unjustified' - what would you have the officers do? Shrug their shoulders, walk away and say "sorry, nothing I can do, deal with it campus" ? This is a serious question, I have heard people say "they shouldn't have pepper sprayed, it was just a misdemeanour" - but what are their other options?

Tell me how they were affecting the Safety of Students or the campus?

 

[Chichikov]

If you want to give more validity to your argument (which I can almost understand) you need to drop this... the officers were being harassed/encircled/blocked by the protesters argument. That's not why the pepper spray was used, it was because they wanted them to move - if their job was to move the protesters, and the protesters were there illegally, and verbal/physical requests to leave the location were ignored - that argument holds up on it's own.

To the people saying it was 'unjustified' - what would you have the officers do? Shrug their shoulders, walk away and say "sorry, nothing I can do, deal with it campus" ? This is a serious question, I have heard people say "they shouldn't have pepper sprayed, it was just a misdemeanour" - but what are their other options?

How long do you think people can sit holding hands?
When they go to take a piss break, arrest them (if you must, I wouldn't send the police, but it's not the police prerogative to decide when being sent).

Do you honestly think pepper spraying is preferable?

 

[Alucrid]

How long do you think people can sit holding hands?
When they go to take a piss break, arrest them (if you must, I wouldn't send the police, but it's not the police prerogative to decide when being sent).

Do you honestly think pepper spraying is preferable?

Preferable to what? Being beaten? Being sprayed by a water cannon? Being attacked by dogs?

Yes.

And once again, I find the comparison to the Civil Rights movement to be disingenuous.

 

[Kinitari]

How long do you think people can sit holding hands?
When they go to take a piss break, arrest them (if you must, I wouldn't send the police, but it's not the police prerogative to decide when being sent).

Do you honestly think pepper spraying is preferable?

Not preferable per say - but waiting until they go take a piss/leak, get hungry or whatever - you're waiting on their schedule to do your job. Which doesn't make sense to me. And another person can just run in, smoosh in as that person leaves, and the whole cycle starts anew.

It seems like trying those other methods would end up being an exercise in futility, all the while giving the protesters (who I think were protesting illegally?) a level of consideration they wouldn't give to someone else committing a crime, misdemeanor or no.