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[[Nintex]]

Thankfully the meetup page for N.O. lists a measly three people. I figure that'll get up to ten by Saturday, so I should be okay.

Thanks for the list.

I think you should move to Syria, they know how to handle 'the crazies' there.

 

[Karma Kramer]

Most Unions have local and state branches. Its rebranding time on a large scale. Truthfully it increases the chance of something actually coming out of this affair, but the authorship is going to be quite different than originally intended.

Care to be specific since you seem to know the intention of these unions.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

What happened to the Philly thing? The City Hall plaza was empty when I walked through after work.

Phillies game is tonight.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Care to be specific since you seem to know the intention of these unions.

Whatever they want it to be. Its more pointing out they will be in the drivers seat, not the original organizers.

 

[empty vessel]

Yep. This has basically become a union-deal now - if they are bringing the oomph they are going to want the majority of the stage. Movement = co-opted

This fear-mongering only works if one already opposes unions, which means one already opposes the movement anyway. I think people who oppose unions and who don't own businesses are crazy people.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

This fear-mongering only works if one already opposes unions, which means one already opposes the movement anyway. I think people who oppose unions and who don't own businesses are crazy people.

You don't have to dislike the message (or parts of it) to dislike one time messengers now being replaced by someone else.

 

[SolKane]

Whatever they want it to be. Its more pointing out they will be in the drivers seat, not the original organizers.

How do the unions' interests differ from those of the other protesters?

 

[AbsoluteZero]

I think you should move to Syria, they know how to handle 'the crazies' there.

I have no problem with people protesting, they have that right as american citizens.

But I know how large groups of unruly people can get...we have Mardi Gras down here after all.

I'd just like to avoid it if at all possible.

 

[Dude Abides]

Whatever they want it to be. Its more pointing out they will be in the drivers seat, not the original organizers.

I doubt John Samuelsen (it's mostly Local 100) is interested in taking the lead in steering whatever this turns into. They're out of contract at the end of this year, the MTA is driving hard on its 3 zeros initiative, so they've got a huge fight coming up that they'll have to focus on.

 

[Karma Kramer]

Whatever they want it to be. Its more pointing out they will be in the drivers seat, not the original organizers.

My point is what would be the difference in perspectives? Yeah so the movement is growing and more leadership is coming forward but that doesn't mean the original organizers aren't 100% in favor of the new leadership.

Unlike the tea party which is anything but libertarian now (war on drugs, military spending, patriot act, abortion)

 

[empty vessel]

You don't have to dislike the message (or parts of it) to dislike one time messengers now being replaced by someone else.

This is just FUD. Nobody is being replaced because there was never anybody to replace. This is what solidarity looks like.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

How do the unions' interests differ from those of the other protesters?

It will filter out the extreme, unrealistic, and tangential issues out of the protests. It will also introduce real organization and cohesiveness too.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

I doubt John Samuelsen (it's mostly Local 100) is interested in taking the lead in steering whatever this turns into. They're out of contract at the end of this year, the MTA is driving hard on its 3 zeros initiative, so they've got a huge fight coming up that they'll have to focus on.

What better time than now to make a pitch about local workers of NYC about to be squeezed with more coverage and volume than you would have otherwise.

This is just FUD. Nobody is being replaced because there was never anybody to replace. This is what solidarity looks like.

It replacing unorganized rabble with one of the better political tools of the 20th century for mobilizing and organizing people: the labor union.

 

[Dude Abides]

What better time than now to make a pitch about local workers of NYC about to be squeezed with more coverage and volume than you would have otherwise.

They've already been doing that in the way they always do. They're not going to try to co-opt this into being all about their specific contract issues. First, because they'll lose the interest of everyone else if they make it about a 1.5% health care contribution in their contract or other mundane issues. Second, because they have to focus on their negotiations and impasse arbitration if it comes to it. Of course they'll use this to some extent but I very much doubt they're interested in taking it over.

 

[Clevinger]

Its replace unorganized rabble with one of the better political tools of the 20th century for mobilizing and organizing people: the labor union.

I see no evidence of this. It started out unorganized and has slowly become more organized as they've built a website and coordinated more. It still looks pretty unorganized, though, as they don't even have an official list of demands yet.

 

[SolKane]

I have no problem with people protesting, they have that right as american citizens.

But I know how large groups of unruly people can get...we have Mardi Gras down here after all.

I'd just like to avoid it if at all possible.

Well unless those protesters have been drinking for 5 days straight, I doubt you have anything to worry about.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

They've already been doing that in the way they always do. They're not going to try to co-opt this into being all about their specific contract issues. First, because they'll lose the interest of everyone else if they make it about a 1.5% health care contribution in their contract or other mundane issues. Second, because they have to focus on their negotiations and impasse arbitration if it comes to it. Of course they'll use this to some extent but I very much doubt they're interested in taking it over.

They're not going to only make it about them, but they know they are the reason people are coming out and taking a larger interest and they'd be foolish not to take advantage of it. At the same time they know not to be overt about this. Successful cooption is when someone doesn't even realize till lated that they have been coopted. Other unions will also follow in doing this along with such groups that have national reach.

 

[AbsoluteZero]

Well unless those protesters have been drinking for 5 days straight, I doubt you have anything to worry about.

Hey man, you never know around these parts.

 

[Sirpopopop]

Impossible, they're pretty much all corrupt.

Not that I disagree with what should be done, just that I don't agree that it's possible at this point with the kind of established politicians we have in America right now.

Sanders isn't establishment at all.

He's a socialist independent.

 

[ToxicAdam]

I keep seeing people bring up "reinstate Glass-Steagall" as a serious solution to regulating the banking industry. In reality, reinstating it is a complete non-starter. It would a trigger a massive recession- far worse than when Lehman Brothers liquidated in '08. The Dow would easily lose at least 5,000 and unemployment would double within a month or so. You can't just rip these banks apart at this point, the cat is already out of bag and we must use other measures to mitigate risky investing behaviors.

I think we will be okay.

 

[sp3000]

Demand one: Restoration of the living wage. This demand can only be met by ending "Freetrade" by re-imposing trade tariffs on all imported goods entering the American market to level the playing field for domestic family farming and domestic manufacturing as most nations that are dumping cheap products onto the American market have radical wage and environmental regulation advantages. Another policy that must be instituted is raise the minimum wage to twenty dollars an hr.

Demand two: Institute a universal single payer healthcare system. To do this all private insurers must be banned from the healthcare market as their only effect on the health of patients is to take money away from doctors, nurses and hospitals preventing them from doing their jobs and hand that money to wall st. investors.

Demand three: Guaranteed living wage income regardless of employment.

Demand four: Free college education.

Demand five: Begin a fast track process to bring the fossil fuel economy to an end while at the same bringing the alternative energy economy up to energy demand.

Demand six: One trillion dollars in infrastructure (Water, Sewer, Rail, Roads and Bridges and Electrical Grid) spending now.

Demand seven: One trillion dollars in ecological restoration planting forests, reestablishing wetlands and the natural flow of river systems and decommissioning of all of America's nuclear power plants.

Demand eight: Racial and gender equal rights amendment.

Demand nine: Open borders migration. anyone can travel anywhere to work and live.

Demand ten: Bring American elections up to international standards of a paper ballot precinct counted and recounted in front of an independent and party observers system.

Demand eleven: Immediate across the board debt forgiveness for all. Debt forgiveness of sovereign debt, commercial loans, home mortgages, home equity loans, credit card debt, student loans and personal loans now! All debt must be stricken from the "Books." World Bank Loans to all Nations, Bank to Bank Debt and all Bonds and Margin Call Debt in the stock market including all Derivatives or Credit Default Swaps, all 65 trillion dollars of them must also be stricken from the "Books." And I don't mean debt that is in default, I mean all debt on the entire planet period.

Demand twelve: Outlaw all credit reporting agencies.

Demand thirteen: Allow all workers to sign a ballot at any time during a union organizing campaign or at any time that represents their yeah or nay to having a union represent them in collective bargaining or to form a union.

These demands will create so many jobs it will be completely impossible to fill them without an open borders policy.

This may be the dumbest list of demands I've ever read. Number 3 and 7 and 11 are especially hilarious. 11 might have made me dumber by reading it.

It's like hippie college students and economic illiterates combined to form some uber nerd list of demands.

This movement needs a person to actually articulate its points or people like this will take over and make it worthless.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

I think we will be okay.

It is interesting that the UK is divorcing investment banks from regular banks, but in a process that will take until 2017.

 

[sphagnum]

Footage on MSNBC reminds me of Tahrir Square. Hope it can last. I'll be down at Zucotti Park on Saturday.

 

[SolKane]

This may be the dumbest list of demands I've ever read. Number 3 and 7 and 11 are especially hilarious. 11 might have made me dumber by reading it.

It's like hippie college students and economic illiterates combined to form some uber nerd list of demands.

This movement needs a person to actually articulate its points or people like this will take over and make it worthless.

It's amazing people keep citing this as if it's relevant.

 

[ColonelColon]

Do the unions support the demand to separate money from politics/government?

 

[el retorno]

It is interesting that the UK is divorcing investment banks from regular banks, but in a process that will take until 2017.

As It should. Nothing, not the tea party or occupy wall st's demands should be implemented overnight.

Footage on MSNBC reminds me of Tahrir Square. Hope it can last. I'll be down at Zucotti Park on Saturday.

Everytime someone cities Tahrir I want to hate this movement. IT IS NOTHING LIKE THAT. One is a free country which has universal sufferage, free speech, a first amendment that protects protesting. The other people were protesting a dictator who opressed his people, risked their lives. Not the same thing not even close.

 

[Wazzim]

I love how the banks still go on with their bonus culture, still go on adding extra fees to even have and/or use your OWN money while they profit from it. They don't cut the salaries of the big guys but add fees instead, screw the customer up more instead. The arrogant nature of these banks all has to do with little regulation because of the government that isn't scared of the people but only about their income.
REGULATION=STABILISATION
And NO we don't need to care about the 'free market' because it just isn't there anyways, it's a hoax. All we need to do is to FORCE those guys to NOT do what went wrong in 1929 and 2008. Giving them the freedom to make those mistakes again can't possibly be good for the long term stability.

The day the major countries start with strong regulation like the one stated above is the day we finally move to a better stabilised global economy.

 

[el retorno]

I love how the banks still go on with their bonus culture, still go on adding extra fees to even have and/or use your OWN money while they profit from it.

I understand in the anger in fees and share in them but this argument is so silly. You are aware that they provided you a service as well? They provide a safe place to put your money, enable you to access from all over the world and pay you interest plus many other benifits you can always keep cash in your house.

I'm no saying the fees aren't stupid but to say they are charging you to "use your own money" is stupid. They are charging you to for the service they provide.

 

[sphagnum]

Everytime someone cities Tahrir I want to hate this movement. IT IS NOTHING LIKE THAT. One is a free country which has universal sufferage, free speech, a first amendment that protects protesting. The other people were protesting a dictator who opressed his people, risked their lives. Not the same thing not even close.

I meant in terms of visuals.

 

[Slavik81]

GMO opposition is about the genetic land grab it entials. Monsanto have a very long and very well documented history of taking farmers from across the world to court after their gmos cross pollinate native varieties and demanding royalties on the hybrids holding patented genes.

Then lobby for patent reform. Biotech isnott the only industry in need of serious changes.

 

[gkryhewy]

Phillies game is tonight.

No crap, I'm watching it now! But I was still surprised after the photos of that church last night. I didn't see a single person who looked to be occupying anything.

EDIT: Oh! The thing starts tomorrow AM.

 

[Sirpopopop]

Thanks for invalidating any argument you'll ever try to have ever.


I never said they were a threat to Dems, etc etc, I'm not sure what all you took from my statement and frankly I don't care.

How did what I write was ponybashing? I merely pointed out that you support a tv show that's part of this system in general.

If what I wrote was ponybashing then your comment about Neutral Milk Hotel vis a vis me, was bashing. How can you make a comment about my avatar, and then I cannot?

Heck, on top of that there was your "corporate billionaire" jab. As if the only people who could be opposed to your movement must be billionaires.

If that's the case, then it's ok for you to bash me, but not for me to bash you?

Yep, good going there.

Also it's not a conspiracy, it's called politics. People with power want to hold on to it, and will do crazy things to do so. So out of your lane that you think it's a crazy conspiracy? Oh well.

Yes, it's crazy to think that people in power in the United States as a rule will do crazy things to keep power. It's crazy to think they are involved in some grand conspiracy involving billions of dollars to keep the population under their control for their own interests.

If they were interested in such a option, every state would have a public educational system even more closeminded than Texas', there would be no such thing as private education, you wouldn't have freedom of access on the internet, and NY Times vs. Sullivan would have been overturned by now in the Supreme Court.

 

[Wazzim]

I understand in the anger in fees and share in them but this argument is so silly. You are aware that they provided you a service as well? They provide a safe place to put your money, enable you to access from all over the world and pay you interest plus many other benifits you can always keep cash in your house.

I'm no saying the fees aren't stupid but to say they are charging you to "use your own money" is stupid. They are charging you to for the service they provide.

I know that of course but can you work and say 'hey, just give my salary in cash please.'? We are pretty much forced to use the service in these days, banks obviously profit from it so why the fees? I'd gladly pay fees if that means they'll stop risking my money on unstable systems for short term profit and only store it. I wouldn't even care if it's in physical money or 'digital' money (don't know the English word for that kind of money).

 

[Cat Party]

Do the unions support the demand to separate money from politics/government?

I'm sure they do, just not their money of course.

 

[kame-sennin]

The protest is the lead story on NBC's nightly news right now.

 

[lo escondido]

I know that of course but can you work and say 'hey, just give my salary in cash please.'? We are pretty much forced to use the service in these days, banks obviously profit from it so why the fees? I'd gladly pay fees if that means they'll stop risking my money on unstable systems for short term profit and only store it. I wouldn't even care if it's in physical money or 'digital' money (don't know the English word for that kind of money).

Most of the fees are for extra services (Debit cards, online banking). There are free checking acounts and credit unions. And unless you have more than 200,000 in one account your money is never "risked."

 

[Enron]

Will the occupy wall street movement also pay to help clean up and restore that park after they thrashed it? Just curious.

 

[Enron]

I know that of course but can you work and say 'hey, just give my salary in cash please.'? We are pretty much forced to use the service in these days, banks obviously profit from it so why the fees? I'd gladly pay fees if that means they'll stop risking my money on unstable systems for short term profit and only store it. I wouldn't even care if it's in physical money or 'digital' money (don't know the English word for that kind of money).

You do know how your checking and savings accounts actually work, right?

hint: it's not like that

 

[empty vessel]

Everytime someone cities Tahrir I want to hate this movement. IT IS NOTHING LIKE THAT. One is a free country which has universal sufferage, free speech, a first amendment that protects protesting. The other people were protesting a dictator who opressed his people, risked their lives. Not the same thing not even close.

People in Tahrir Square disagree with you. To be sure, the situations aren't identical, but they seem to see the dire nature of the economic problems we face more clearly than you do. Economic conditions in Egypt, after all, drove the revolution there.

Nobody is pretending as if people protesting in New York are risking their lives. It doesn't make what they are doing, however, different on some fundamental level from what Egyptians did. Both are trying to change a powerful, entrenched order that they believe is unacceptable.

 

[Cat Party]

There's an Occupy Portland dealy happening downtown tomorrow afternoon. If they screw up my commute and I miss the NHL's opening night, I will vote Republican in 2012. Okay, no I won't. But the point remains.

 

[water_wendi]

Movements like this will accomplish little because the people that its aimed at do not fear the repercussions that will come out of this. Things are so far gone that the only way any change will happen is through violence. When the wealthy baby boomers who snatched the keys and crashed what their parents had built are in fear of being murdered then things might be able to get back on track.

 

[mckmas8808]

It is interesting that the UK is divorcing investment banks from regular banks, but in a process that will take until 2017.

Sounds good to me.

 

[Dude Abides]

There's an Occupy Portland dealy happening downtown tomorrow afternoon. If they screw up my commute and I miss the NHL's opening night, I will vote Republican in 2012. Okay, no I won't. But the point remains.

The point that you don't like being inconvenienced? A profound point indeed!

 

[akira28]

mostly bullshit

Yes, it's crazy to think that people in power in the United States as a rule will do crazy things to keep power. It's crazy to think they are involved in some grand conspiracy involving billions of dollars to keep the population under their control for their own interests.

Most of what you said re: conspiracies was bullshit taken to its extreme. And the pony bashing comment was me going 'LOL u' for the fact that you even thought it was relevant enough to mention. Hahah ponies are part of the vast right wing conspiracy. I can't wait to show this to the guys.

I'm a NMH fan. And without your 'as a rule' modifier, not only do you sound crazy, you sound like youre in denial. Also do your conspiracies only come in small, large, and grand? Would a modest and thrifty conspiracy be more believable?

Don't worry about it though, everything's fine.

 

[Karma Kramer]

I swear a few members here sole purpose is to spread FUD about this. Sometimes I wonder if corporations look at message forums as a way to spread nonsense.

/tinfoilhat

 

[mckmas8808]

Movements like this will accomplish little because the people that its aimed at do not fear the repercussions that will come out of this. Things are so far gone that the only way any change will happen is through violence. When the wealthy baby boomers who snatched the keys and crashed what their parents had built are in fear of being murdered then things might be able to get back on track.

This is crazy talk. MLK Jr. didn't have to resort to this non-sense. And he was fighting something bigger than this.

 

[el retorno]

Nobody is pretending as if people protesting in New York are risking their lives. It doesn't make what they are doing, however, different on some fundamental level from what Egyptians did. Both are trying to change a powerful, entrenched order that they believe is unacceptable.

They are different on a fundamental level. One is protesting for what the other already has. The fact that both are protesting for economic change does not tie them together.

 

[water_wendi]

This is crazy talk. MLK Jr. didn't have to resort to this non-sense. And he was fighting something bigger than this.

You need leverage to force someone to change. The civil rights movement had leverage. This movement has nothing of the sort.

 

[Karma Kramer]

This is crazy talk. MLK Jr. didn't have to resort to this non-sense. And he was fighting something bigger than this.

Amen, only way is non-violence. Power in numbers.

 

[Karma Kramer]

You need leverage to force someone to change. The civil rights movement had leverage. This movement has nothing of the sort.

Yes it does... we vote with our money everyday...