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[water_wendi]

Yes it does... we vote with our money everyday...

Whats being boycotted here? Whats being shut down by this? How is this hurting the pocketbooks of those that are behind the nations problems?

 

[Angry Fork]

This may be the dumbest list of demands I've ever read. Number 3 and 7 and 11 are especially hilarious. 11 might have made me dumber by reading it.

It's like hippie college students and economic illiterates combined to form some uber nerd list of demands.

This movement needs a person to actually articulate its points or people like this will take over and make it worthless.

Most of those demands are enacted in places like Norway, Finland etc. People acting like that shit is impossible because they're so accustomed to shitty treatment.

 

[Gallbaro]

Will the occupy wall street movement also pay to help clean up and restore that park after they thrashed it? Just curious.

That's the irony, its a corporately owned park!

 

[bryehn]

This may be the dumbest list of demands I've ever read. Number 3 and 7 and 11 are especially hilarious. 11 might have made me dumber by reading it.

It's like hippie college students and economic illiterates combined to form some uber nerd list of demands.

This movement needs a person to actually articulate its points or people like this will take over and make it worthless.

Holy fucking shit that list is ridiculous, every single point.

 

[Something Wicked]

It is interesting that the UK is divorcing investment banks from regular banks, but in a process that will take until 2017.

And so much for London to ever overtake or even remotely challenge New York as the financial capital of the world- being that capital or close to one provides quite a few jobs I must say.

As It should. Nothing, not the tea party or occupy wall st's demands should be implemented overnight.

The commercial banking sector and the financial industry are even more intertwined in the US economy than in the UK. It would take much longer to implement the measures that the UK are attempting to follow here in the US without catastrophic repercussions occurring. Also, while measures do limit the chances of systematic failures when banks en masse invest in shit (sub-prime mortgages), the significantly reduced levels of capital in the markets will limit the rate of potential national economic growth as well. We need close to 4% GDP growth to have a dying shot at limiting our future deficits and perhaps even lowering the total debt. If we don't get to that growth target by 2020, then we're really fucked.

 

[lo escondido]

Most of those demands are enacted in places like Norway, Finland etc. People acting like that shit is impossible because they're so accustomed to shitty treatment.

Not everyone wants America to be like Norway and Finland.

 

[Karma Kramer]

Whats being boycotted here? Whats being shut down by this? How is this hurting the pocketbooks of those that are behind the nations problems?

Nothing yet, but you said they have no leverage. That isn't true.

 

[Sirpopopop]

Most of what you said re: conspiracies was bullshit taken to its extreme. And the pony bashing comment was me going 'LOL u' for the fact that you even thought it was relevant enough to mention. Hahah ponies are part of the vast right wing conspiracy. I can't wait to show this to the guys.

So I'm the guy who is a proponent of a right-wing conspiracy here?

If anything my pony example is meant to show the ridiculousness of that belief.

I'm a NMH fan. And without your 'as a rule' modifier, not only do you sound crazy, you sound like youre in denial. Also do your conspiracies only come in small, large, and grand? Would a modest and thrifty conspiracy be more believable?

Don't worry about it though, everything's fine.

Denial of what? This giant media political complex theory?

Yeah, I'm in denial of that.

Yes, politicians and media members do have some correspondence. However, this is not some grand conspiracy to keep "the people" down. It's more about the advancement of their beliefs. It doesn't preclude you from spreading your own beliefs.

 

[water_wendi]

Nothing yet, but you said they have no leverage. That isn't true.

If thats what you believe, thats what you believe. i disagree. We are worse off than the Third Estate because the power that citizens of the US have is nothing more than an illusion.

 

[Something Wicked]

Most of those demands are enacted in places like Norway, Finland etc. People acting like that shit is impossible because they're so accustomed to shitty treatment.

A) Scandinavians don't have any kind of debt? You're delusional and completely making shit up.

B) The average Fin (and average Swede) are noticeably poorer than the average American. Norway only comes close to the average American disposable income due to its oil industry.

 

[akira28]

There was definitely the fear of violence back then. That's why there are so many dead Black Panthers today.

MLK had a country afraid of backlash from racism. They were afraid that if they didn't answer the Civil Rights question that it could erupt into actual hostile combat between the left and the right, not just black and white. There was a lot of mainstream support for handling the issue, while politically everyone in office wanted to avoid it. Strangely enough, today, no one would publicly say that it was a bad decision, but back then our government couldn't decide which was the right side of history.

There's the threat of violence this time. I hear people all the time saying it. Talking about the pitchfork.com reading masses ripping the rich from their homes. I've seen that scenario play out in my reoccurring dreams, it ends in martial law, 80% gov't shutdown and gets progressively worse.(I take up jogging. Bike riding becomes a lot more popular. So does dieting....) The problem with angry mobs is they can't angry plan. We need a powerful political hammer to beat the shit out of our government, not give the Military Industrial Complex an excuse to mobilize their Citizen surrveillance scanning system and InfraGard private industry observation networks against "sedition".

SirPup
What am I in denial of? This massively massive complex conspiracy that I need to keep mentioning in order to make the ideas of politicians and billionaires working together seem unreasonable instead of factual? Then yes..I denies.

 

[Karma Kramer]

If thats what you believe, thats what you believe. i disagree. We are worse off than the Third Estate because the power that citizens of the US have is nothing more than an illusion.

Thats quite pessimistic... I tend to think if we can get to this point, we can get out of it. If this continues to grow and people get organized with using their money so it benefits people locally than I definitely don't think the power of US citizens is an illusion. It is all about the numbers is all.

 

[remnant]

There was definitely the fear of violence back then. That's why there are so many dead Black Panthers today.

MLK had a country afraid of backlash from racism. They were afraid that if they didn't answer the Civil Rights question that it could erupt into actual hostile combat between the left and the right, not just black and white. There was a lot of mainstream support for handling the issue, while politically everyone in office wanted to avoid it. Strangely enough, today, no one would publicly say that it was a bad decision, but back then our government couldn't decide which was the right side of history.

There's the threat of violence this time. I hear people all the time saying it. Talking about the pitchfork.com reading masses ripping the rich from their homes. I've seen that scenario play out in my reoccurring dreams, it ends in martial law, 80% gov't shutdown and gets progressively worse. The problem with angry mobs is they can't angry plan. We need a powerful political hammer to beat the shit out of our government, not give the Military Industrial Complex an excuse to mobilize their Citizen surrveillance scanning system and InfraGard private industry observation networks against "sedition".

SirPup
What am I in denial of? This massively massive complex conspiracy that I need to keep mentioning in order to make the ideas of politicians and billionaires working together seem unreasonable instead of factual? Then yes..I denies.

You dream about angry mobs invading people's homes and killing them?

 

[Sirpopopop]

SirPup
What am I in denial of? This massively massive complex conspiracy that I need to keep mentioning in order to make the ideas of politicians and billionaires working together seem unreasonable instead of factual? Then yes..I denies.

So we agree that this massive conspiracy does not actually exist, and that your original hysteria regarding such a convergence was in fact just hyperbole.

 

[Enron]

Talking about the pitchfork.com reading masses ripping the rich from their homes. I've seen that scenario play out in my reoccurring dreams

 

[Karma Kramer]

.

 

[water_wendi]

Thats quite pessimistic... I tend to think if we can get to this point, we can get out of it. If this continues to grow and people get organized with using their money so it benefits people locally than I definitely don't think the power of US citizens is an illusion. It is all about the numbers is all.

Who is this "we?" The people that number in the 1-2% brought the nation to this point, not the everyday American.

 

[mckmas8808]

You need leverage to force someone to change. The civil rights movement had leverage. This movement has nothing of the sort.

I'd say the best leverage that this can have is Bringing more awareness to the everyday american citizen. Most people I know where they were being g raped aleady by the banks.

 

[Karma Kramer]

Who is this "we?" The people that number in the 1-2% brought the nation to this point, not the everyday American.

Everday Americans did bring us to this point by deciding they would rather save 40 cents for a broomstick at WalMart than continue to support local mom and pop shops.

 

[akira28]

You dream about angry mobs invading people's homes and killing them?

Actually I did dream that once, I'm in my parents' home and the angry mob is after them...all the land around us just set ablaze... but no, I have reoccurring dreams of a world gone to hell. Or what could happen if we make all the wrong choices and everything stops working.

What I'm saying is other people are dreaming that. During the day. While sitting at work. At their desks.

(i also notice you people don't recognize jokes.)

 

[lastendconductor]

Will the occupy wall street movement also pay to help clean up and restore that park after they thrashed it? Just curious.

Of course, they are taxpayers.

 

[empty vessel]

A) Scandinavians don't have any kind of debt? You're delusional and completely making shit up.

B) The average Fin (and average Swede) are noticeably poorer than the average American. Norway only comes close to the average American disposable income due to its oil industry.

Norway, Finland, and Sweden all have lower government debt as percent of GDP than the US. The typical Fin, Swede and Norwegian are not "noticeably poorer" than the typical American. Or, put differently, you could in theory say that about, e.g., the UK. You could also say that the bottom decile within Norway, Finland, and Sweden is "noticeably richer" than the bottom decile in the US:

http://lysander.sourceoecd.org/vl=78158817/cl=14/nw=1/rpsv/factbook2009/12/01/02/12-01-02-g1.htm

 

[akira28]

So we agree that this massive conspiracy does not actually exist, and that your original hysteria regarding such a convergence was in fact just hyperbole.

No. We agree that you're talkin bullshit.

Everday Americans did bring us to this point by deciding they would rather save 40 cents for a broomstick at WalMart than continue to support local mom and pop shops.

Those Americans don't see the large picture or the consequences of their actions. They just heard the television tell them where they could go to save some money. Their paychecks cover a lot less, no raises in years, and they get blamed for living outside of their means. Their government has helped make their cost of living outpace their rate of income, while allowing their employers to send their jobs away. They did contribute, but they're the least to blame. OF course those with the most control are first to lay the blame anywhere but at their feet. Not surprising. Just annoying when you run into someone who swallowed the line.

 

[mckmas8808]

If thats what you believe, thats what you believe. i disagree. We are worse off than the Third Estate because the power that citizens of the US have is nothing more than an illusion.

Again the civil rights act shows you are wrong here.

 

[Angry Fork]

A) Scandinavians don't have any kind of debt? You're delusional and completely making shit up.

B) The average Fin (and average Swede) are noticeably poorer than the average American. Norway only comes close to the average American disposable income due to its oil industry.

Even if this was true (which it isn't), I'm already poor with no benefits. If people in Finland are poor at least they get free education + healthcare so it evens out. People are disillusioned if they think the average American has it better than people in Finland.

Off hand I can't think of anything America does better than other '1st world' kind of countries besides TV/movies and the military.

 

[water_wendi]

Everday Americans did bring us to this point by deciding they would rather save 40 cents for a broomstick at WalMart than continue to support local mom and pop shops.

Its a bit more complex than that. First off, the root cause are the corporations. They are the ones that decided to muscle out citizen business owners. They undercut everyone until the competition could not compete and went out of business. Second, everyday people are essentially forced to use what the large corporations offer. Cost of living goes up, gas prices go up, food goes up, rent goes up, pay goes down, hours go down.. all of these things, most of them caused by these mega corporations, leave little option for the person trying to survive. Third, corporations spend billions to control peoples minds. This is better than having vassals because the corporations get their money without needing to offer protection.

Again the civil rights act shows you are wrong here.

That was then. This is now.

 

[Sirpopopop]

No. We agree that you're talkin bullshit.

So what am I talking about exactly.

Let's get this clear from your perspective.

 

[akira28]

So what am I talking about exactly.

Let's get this clear from your perspective.

We were done a few posts ago. You can continue to draw this out, I'm gonna go grab a brew. You can let me know how it turns out, I might bother to look.

 

[remnant]

Actually I did dream that once, I'm in my parents' home and the angry mob is after them...all the land around us just set ablaze... but no, I have reoccurring dreams of a world gone to hell. Or what could happen if we make all the wrong choices and everything stops working.

What I'm saying is other people are dreaming that. During the day. While sitting at work. At their desks.

(i also notice you people don't recognize jokes.)

I...uh...well.. I'm not a psychologist so i won't touch this.

Everday Americans did bring us to this point by deciding they would rather save 40 cents for a broomstick at WalMart than continue to support local mom and pop shops.

Damn you Amazon.com "shakes fist"

 

[KingK]

A) Scandinavians don't have any kind of debt? You're delusional and completely making shit up.

B) The average Fin (and average Swede) are noticeably poorer than the average American. Norway only comes close to the average American disposable income due to its oil industry.

I don't think you thought this through all the way.

Maybe the average US citizen has more "disposable" income, but how much of that is truly disposable? How much of that has to pay for health care, education, etc.? Meanwhile, the average Fin or Swede already has those obligations paid for through taxes, and their disposable income really is able to be spent on what they want. I would be surprised if, after subtracting necessary costs like health care, the average US disposable income was noticeably higher than the average Scandinavian.

 

[akira28]

I...uh...well.. I'm not a psychologist so i won't touch this.

*eyebrow raised, slightly bemused*

 

[Cat Party]

The point that you don't like being inconvenienced? A profound point indeed!

True. I will call it a "demand" instead.

Demand 1: I do not want to be inconvenienced by the protest.

Demand 2: forgiveness of all my debt

and so on...

 

[magicstop]

Wow, go to an afternoon meeting and BAM . . . thread gets derailed by trolls critiquing a random list of demands by a random individual on a forum. Awesome.

I know the OP got a little behind today, folks, but after the podcast tonight, or tomorrow morning, I'm going to work on updating it with news from the march, etc. Looks like a big day, and I intend to get abreast of things.

Currently munching on some dinner and cleaning up a bit before the podcast. Then you can all hear my sexy man voice on your digital listening boxes.

Fucking trolls be gorging, man.

 

[chaostrophy]

B) The average Fin (and average Swede) are noticeably poorer than the average American. Norway only comes close to the average American disposable income due to its oil industry.

I'd be fine with having less money to spend on luxury items in exchange for having a social safety net in place if I get laid off, get a serious illness that insurance won't cover, etc. Who wouldn't?

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

I'd be fine with having less money to spend on luxury items in exchange for having a social safety net in place if I get laid off, get a serious illness that insurance won't cover, etc. Who wouldn't?

Me, and who says its luxury items, maybe it's clothes for my kid.

 

[ezrarh]

I'd be fine with having less money to spend on luxury items in exchange for having a social safety net in place if I get laid off, get a serious illness that insurance won't cover, etc. Who wouldn't?

Americans who don't think catastrophic things can happen to them. Then they lose their jobs/can't work anymore and have to turn to medicare/medicaid.

 

[FlyinJ]

I'd be fine with having less money to spend on luxury items in exchange for having a social safety net in place if I get laid off, get a serious illness that insurance won't cover, etc. Who wouldn't?

Americans.

 

[chaostrophy]

Me, and who says its luxury items, maybe it's clothes for my kid.

Clothing is a necessity, I wouldn't think of money spent on kids clothes as disposable income, unless Louis Vuitton makes kids clothes now or something. Do Scandinavian countries have poor children running around naked because of their high tax rates? Not that I know of.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Clothing is a necessity, I wouldn't think of money spent on kids clothes as disposable income, unless Louis Vuitton makes kids clothes now or something. Do Scandinavian countries have poor children running around naked because of their high tax rates? Not that I know of.

Doesn't matter, I'd rather have the ability to buy things for my family. Besides the ability for people to buy luxury items tends to help the economy.

 

[Something Wicked]

Norway, Finland, and Sweden all have lower government debt as percent of GDP than the US. The typical Fin, Swede and Norwegian are not "noticeably poorer" than the typical American. Or, put differently, you could in theory say that about, e.g., the UK. You could also say that the bottom decile within Norway, Finland, and Sweden is "noticeably richer" than the bottom decile in the US:

The bottom 10% of the US is brought down by the constant influx of poor immigrants, which has been occurring in Scandinavia (more so in Sweden than Norway & Finland), yet not for as long as in the US and in much lower total numbers.

Comparing the bottom 10% and top 10% isn't telling the whole story either- there is the other 80%, which can be broken into smaller segments for comparison as well. Also, I stated average disposable income- not average pre-tax income. Not sure if those such statistics are provided on the OECD site, but my inkling is that not only is the US upper class wealthier than most of the world, but so is it's upper middle and middle-middle income classes as well. I love how you always focus on the income inequalities between the very top and very bottom of the US, yet never look at the middle classes relative to other countries, which those are the classes that matter politically.

I know the US's lower classes are poorer than the lower classes of the richest European countries (though the gap between disposable income is much smaller than your graph indicated), yet the reason is due to the immigration issues listed above and the greater influence of the drug trade in the US than other OECD countries.

Lastly, accurately comparing the economies of nations with populations of 9, 5, and 4 million versus one with well over 310 million can be quite difficult. You're better off comparing such countries to states with similar populations, like New Jersey, Massachusetts, and Connecticut.

 

[VALIS]

Here come the arrests and pepper spray.

http://twitter.com/#!/anjalimullany/status/121734509854072833

If they're being arrested for peacefully demonstrating, I hope they push back.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Here come the arrests and pepper spray.

http://twitter.com/#!/anjalimullany/status/121734509854072833

If they're being arrested for peacefully demonstrating, I hope they push back.

Whose to say they didn't do something to cause this response themselves.

 

[remnant]

Clothing is a necessity, I wouldn't think of money spent on kids clothes as disposable income, unless Louis Vuitton makes kids clothes now or something. Do Scandinavian countries have poor children running around naked because of their high tax rates? Not that I know of.

Should clothing be free like other necessities?

 

[Door2Dawn]

The death of Steve Jobs will probably screw up the press coverage of the protests. Ugh.

 

[Karma Kramer]

Whose to say they didn't do something to cause this response themselves.

lol, manos you are becoming too predictable

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

The death of Steve Jobs will probably screw up the press coverage of the protests. Ugh.

Yeah, I was thinking it's going to pull any traction they got today both domestic and international.

 

[magicstop]

Here come the arrests and pepper spray.

http://twitter.com/#!/anjalimullany/status/121734509854072833

If they're being arrested for peacefully demonstrating, I hope they push back.

Ah, I was hoping this wouldn't happen. We will, of course, have to wait for the story to unfold, but too often in history these things have been unwarranted. I certainly hope that is the case this go around. Unless an officer were being attacked and was actually threatened and concerned for their safety, I just can't see using pepper spray. It's not fucking crowd control. It's defense. We'll see.

 

[Something Wicked]

I don't think you thought this through all the way.

Maybe the average US citizen has more "disposable" income, but how much of that is truly disposable? How much of that has to pay for health care, education, etc.? Meanwhile, the average Fin or Swede already has those obligations paid for through taxes, and their disposable income really is able to be spent on what they want. I would be surprised if, after subtracting necessary costs like health care, the average US disposable income was noticeably higher than the average Scandinavian.

The difference is more than enough to pay for a family of 4's healthcare insurance costs. Now, college tuition?... Yeah, that's where Americans really get screwed. However, you can tax the top 1% by a whopping 20% increase and the US government still would not nearly have enough to fund the average college student's tuition.

 

[FlyinJ]

The death of Steve Jobs will probably screw up the press coverage of the protests. Ugh.

That's what probably gave them the incentive to start pepper spraying again.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

That's what probably gave them the incentive to start pepper spraying again.

I doubt they actually coordinated between the two events.