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Oculus Rift Kickstarter [Ended, $2.4 million funded]

Zaptruder

Banned
Thought it'd be worthwhile updating the thread with some impressions on the Occulus Rift demo from Quake Con.

This is from Brantlew over at Meant to be Seen forums.

Brantlew said:
A few minutes with an Oculus Rift

Well I finally got to try the Rift. I was at QuakeCon Thursday and half of Friday. Since Oculus was such a recent addition to the show, there were a few technical and bureaucratic issues that prevented Palmer and crew from demoing the Rift on Thursday. However, Palmer graciously granted me and another MTBS3D member a private demonstration on Thursday night. Now I didn't get to actually see the Doom 3 demo, but I did see an earlier Carmack test within a small Rage environment. On Friday, the Doom 3 demo was still unavailable so they were still showing the same Rage demo to the public. So I got to see it twice, but in total only for about 5 minutes. Not near enough for a proper and valid review - but I gotta talk about it anyway.

It's hard to be very objective. The first few minutes is really all about just wanting to look around. It's hard to really concentrate on the details: are the edges visible, can I see the pixel structure, what is the resolution like - all the stuff that I wanted to look at closely just got shelved as soon as I stuck my face in the Rift, because the coolness of the whole thing is just so overwhelming. You just can't stop looking around and admiring just how "real" it all feels. At one point I found myself just grasping my hand in midair because it looked so much like there was a cartoon pipe right in front of me. The sense of depth is just amazing - so far beyond 3D (but not in a silly pop-out way). Everything just somehow has a tangible "weight" and depth to it. When you move to the edge of a ledge and look down - you feel the vertigo in your gut. I experienced simulator sickness for the first time - not just some general discomfort. But a strong and instant gutteral feeling as I was looking down a hole and swaying back and forth. Oh, and for you guys that are concerned about the resolution... With the strong antialiasing, it didn't bother me at all. Now I can certainly imagine for reading text and HUDs it would be noticeable, but with pure scenery watching - it is not a big deal. I forgot to even try to find the pixels because I was so enthralled with the experience.

If I have to nitpick, I would say my main issue was a small tracking latency that I observed. One of the major points that came across to me at QuakeCon was the important of low latency. I've heard Carmack talk about it endlessly and I sort of discounted what he was saying a bit - assuming he was just obsessing over the last 2%. But when it comes to this level of immersion I completely understand his point now. You can get away with all kinds of delays and inaccuracies with non-immersive displays. But the moment you start to feel like you are "in there", you can't ignore those things anymore. I believe Carmack in the keynote claimed the Doom 3 Rift latency was around 40 or 50 milliseconds. Now I saw an older version of that code base, so it may have been even a bit more on this demo. But it was definitely noticeable to me. I wouldn't call it a "stutter" necessarily - that's overstating it. More like a "vibration" as I panned my head. You wouldn't think about it twice if it was your frame rate on a normal screen. But on the Rift, the effect is amplified.

And that's one potential pitfall I see with the Rift. The device is so good, that it amplifies any other problems with latency and inaccuracy. It forces perfection in every other aspect of the simulation. Forget trying to play games with all the effects turned up and running at low frame rates. You'll need all the frame rate you can muster. And it forces me to seriously reconsider inaccuracies in my own projects. Currently I can tolerate all types of motion inaccuracies, stuttering, and latency problems. With the best consumer HMDs those problems just sort of look crummy, but I can deal with it. But I suspect the Rift is not so forgiving - and instead of just looking crappy it might actually make me throw up! Another subtle detail - the way that Carmack modeled the head translation as you rolled your head was sort of funny. The first time I tilted my head sideways the wall in front of me sort of stretched and sheared. The reason is because I was rotating my head around my chin (sort of lopping it to the side onto my shoulder). Well the Carmack interpretation was more like rotating around my nose. Once I consciously rotated around my nose, everything looked correct. That's the sort of thing that you would never-ever notice on a desktop screen, but is so obvious on the Rift.

Ok, well I've gone on long enough - much longer than I actually even used the device. To sum it up, I think it's just fantastic. I would be completely satisfied even if this was the consumer version. Well done Palmer. I can't wait to get one at home to start tinkering with it.

Can't wait to get my hands on this... I'll just have to get myself some contact lenses before then! :p
 

Shawsie64

Banned
Thought it'd be worthwhile updating the thread with some impressions on the Occulus Rift demo from Quake Con.

This is from Brantlew over at Meant to be Seen forums.



Can't wait to get my hands on this... I'll just have to get myself some contact lenses before then! :p

THanks for the impressions, I don't have time to visit MTBS forums lately.. Sounds great though, I cant wait either!
 

TTP

Have a fun! Enjoy!
Thought it'd be worthwhile updating the thread with some impressions on the Occulus Rift demo from Quake Con.

This is from Brantlew over at Meant to be Seen forums.



Can't wait to get my hands on this... I'll just have to get myself some contact lenses before then! :p

The head tracking problems do not bother me at all. Those can be fixed relatively easily without the need to "cheat" via software.

What kinda of scares me is the low latency / high frame rate requirements, especially in the console space.
 
The head tracking problems do not bother me at all. Those can be fixed relatively easily without the need to "cheat" via software.

What kinda of scares me is the low latency / high frame rate requirements, especially in the console space.

lol vr for console. This is still a hacker device at most. Which has awesome possibilities.
 

Zaptruder

Banned
The head tracking problems do not bother me at all. Those can be fixed relatively easily without the need to "cheat" via software.

What kinda of scares me is the low latency / high frame rate requirements, especially in the console space.

I'm pretty interested to see how the tech industry responds to this resurgence of VR.

They've been trying to push 3D pretty hard for the last couple years to little avail - but VR 3D is really the ultimate expression of 3D - the difference between just stereoscopic and VR3D is so night and day.

But OTOH, if this takes off, becomes a good display system capable of superseding traditional flat displays in functionality, they'd also be cannabalizing their 2D market to a degree.

Personally I think they'll probably be a place for both for at least the next 15-20 years - but for an industry drying up on new shit to sell consumers, this will really be the next big thing IMO.
 

scitek

Member
I'm sure some developers will play around with it, but it's not really meant to be an HMD. If that's what you're looking for, the HMZ is probably your best bet for the foreseeable future. 110 degree FOV really doesn't work for movies. And things like the subpar resolution are overlooked because of how it's the best implementation of VR ever done (and brings hope to things getting much better, quickly). That's why all those people involved are excited. It's the VR aspect.

Well, I don't mean this particular model, I mean when a consumer-friendly model is finally released, do you think it'll be able to be used for movies and such? Honestly, the only way I'd ever bother with 3D movies at home would be through an HMD, but there's absolutely no way I'd buy one for gaming and one just for movies. That'd be silly.
 

yogloo

Member
Well, I don't mean this particular model, I mean when a consumer-friendly model is finally released, do you think it'll be able to be used for movies and such? Honestly, the only way I'd ever bother with 3D movies at home would be through an HMD, but there's absolutely no way I'd buy one for gaming and one just for movies. That'd be silly.

I really don't think this is suited for movies. I'm sure you can use it though or maybe someone will come up with a hack to decrease the fov, but that will probably sacrifice resolution.
 

Zaptruder

Banned
I really don't think this is suited for movies. I'm sure you can use it though or maybe someone will come up with a hack to decrease the fov, but that will probably sacrifice resolution.

Movie wise - the only way that would work well is by creating a 3D VR environment and projecting a floating movie window in it - so it'd be like looking at an in-game screen, except because it occupies your entire field of view and is head track, it ends up looking like a floating window, or even maybe just a movie theatre screen, where everything else is blacked out, except for this large screen off in the distance.

But the point is, you'd want to set it up, so that the screen doesn't follow movement of your heads like it does on the Sony HMZ-T1; because if you've used one of those, you'll understand pretty quickly the discomfort created by not been able to shift your head away from the view naturally.
 

scitek

Member
I really don't think this is suited for movies. I'm sure you can use it though or maybe someone will come up with a hack to decrease the fov, but that will probably sacrifice resolution.


No, I get that the FOV's all screwed up, and the picture would be distorted, etc., but I don't think I'd buy one of these at $500+ or whatever if ALL it did was allow me to play a few supported PC games. There'd have to be a way to navigate the desktop and stuff with it on, too, because realistically, having to start a game on a monitor, then put on the Rift once you've loaded the game, then take it off again once you exit to the desktop is too much work for the average consumer to bother with. The initial goal should be just to get this working, but if it gets picked up by a company, work will need to be done on making it perform more than one task or I don't think it'll sell very well.
 

Durante

Member
If VR really takes off it might even make non-VR gaming better, by reversing the increasing latency trend over the past few generations.
(There are current-gen console games which have almost 100ms latency just in the engine - that's more than 3 times the entire feedback loop of the Rift with Doom 3 BFG)
 

mrklaw

MrArseFace
This is interesting.

One of the ideas brought up during the Rift panel was to have cameras pointing outwards in order to allow AR applications. Basically you would see the real world around you through the Rift, with superimposed computer graphics.

Now, since you have cameras looking around already for the purpose of AR, one could easily use something like the markerless Sony Smart AR tech to track a few reference points in the environment to be used as an anti-drift measure and to provide positional data.

Of course the camera would need to be able to cope with dark environments (night vision mode or something).

Even better would be something like Kinect attached to the HMD, scanning the environment around you in hi-def and at 120fps. If you can make it work fast and precisely enough, you wouldn't need inertial sensors at all.

this is basically what I was suggesting. You don't need such detail as markerless AR just to track basic motion.
 

mrklaw

MrArseFace
Movie wise - the only way that would work well is by creating a 3D VR environment and projecting a floating movie window in it - so it'd be like looking at an in-game screen, except because it occupies your entire field of view and is head track, it ends up looking like a floating window, or even maybe just a movie theatre screen, where everything else is blacked out, except for this large screen off in the distance.

But the point is, you'd want to set it up, so that the screen doesn't follow movement of your heads like it does on the Sony HMZ-T1; because if you've used one of those, you'll understand pretty quickly the discomfort created by not been able to shift your head away from the view naturally.

I wonder if it would be possible to have switchable lenses, so you could slot in low fov lenses for movies
 

1-D_FTW

Member
Dude. That thing looks like shit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDBQI12n4Zo

one of these with a proper VR headset = holy shitballs batman.

I've seen videos of that before. There are some hilarious videos where the thing is absolutely going insane and it's guaranteed to have you rolling on the floor from laughter.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AZDM-Vs7lM

The D-Box accomplished the same thing, but doesn't act like a mechanical bull in the process.

Not that I'd refuse the Blue Tiger if somebody wanted to gift it to me.
 

Zaptruder

Banned
I've seen videos of that before. There are some hilarious videos where the thing is absolutely going insane and it's guaranteed to have you rolling on the floor from laughter.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AZDM-Vs7lM

The D-Box accomplished the same thing, but doesn't act like a mechanical bull in the process.

Not that I'd refuse the Blue Tiger if somebody wanted to gift it to me.

I don't know man. I'm fairly unconvinced - sure they do the same thing in so far as they're both motion simulators.

But the blue tiger simulator appears like a more traditional high end motion simulator, providing a far larger range of dynamic motion/dynamic force perception. Been able to incline at steeper angles would allow for gravity to exert at larger force, meaning that you'll be able to replicate a larger range of forces while driving a vehicle than with the D-Box... which has such small angles that it appears to be more of a force indicator system rather than force simulator.

That said, it does seem to be better suited to small quick motions like running over rumble strips than the bluetiger - although you can augment the bluetiger to an extent with additional seat rumble devices.

Of course I'm saying all this without direct experience of other product - just going off my intuition and some intelligent guessing. Have you had much experience with a range of motion simulators yourself?
 

Durante

Member
Actually moving people is so 90s. With galvanic vestibular stimulation you can skip all the fancy, expensive mechanical parts. And maybe fry some nerves!
 

Serra

Member
I just saw the quakecon panel about this and that Valve guy looks so fucking smug. I was really expecting him to just drop a bombshell at any time.
 

1-D_FTW

Member
Of course I'm saying all this without direct experience of other product - just going off my intuition and some intelligent guessing. Have you had much experience with a range of motion simulators yourself?

No. Closest I've ever come was wishing one of those crazy Sega arcade machines would come to a place near me :lol.

You may be right about it better conveying the force of Gs, but I still without hands on experience, it's impossible for me to know.

P.S. I challenge anyone to turn up the volume and watch this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZL74ygiVoo

If you're not dying of laughter, you're a better person than me.
 

Gilgamesh

Member
Not gonna back this, but if they actually succeed in getting this to market and many games are developed/patched/modded to support it, it's definitely something I'd be interested in buying.

Plus it looks cyberpunk as fuck.
 
can I buy this and play games on when its released indecember if I pay $300, even if Im just a gamer and not a programmer or developer? is it worth it just for that?
 

TTP

Have a fun! Enjoy!
can I buy this and play games on when its released indecember if I pay $300, even if Im just a gamer and not a programmer or developer? is it worth it just for that?

No. Games have to support the device specifically and the only one that does is Doom III BFG Edition.

The Oculus Rift they are selling for $300 is basically an SDK for developers.
 

TheExodu5

Banned
It's funny...in the QuakeCon Panel, they basically say I shouldn't buy it. But hell, I'm buying it anyways. I know exactly what I'm getting into. I'm not a developer, but I am too excited about the experience and I'd love to be a part of it. Furthermore, as a graphics enthusiast, I think I can at least bring some valuable criticisms or feedback to the table.
 

Durante

Member
I think as long as you know exactly what you're getting and still want it you absolutely should back it.

The panel was meant to discourage ordinary consumers from buying it, and expecting to easily play their existing games or watch 3D movies on it. (Though if they read the kickstarter page at all they sould already be aware of that not being possible)
 

Haint

Member
It's funny...in the QuakeCon Panel, they basically say I shouldn't buy it. But hell, I'm buying it anyways. I know exactly what I'm getting into. I'm not a developer, but I am too excited about the experience and I'd love to be a part of it. Furthermore, as a graphics enthusiast, I think I can at least bring some valuable criticisms or feedback to the table.

This is very true. I think feedback on fit, comfort, image quality, and overall design and is every bit as important (if not more important) than developer support at stage. The almost universal hatred of the T1's abysmal comfort, finicky optics, awkward built-in garbage headphones, and subsequent user mods aimed at bettering it are a clear testament to this. All the content in the world doesn't mean jack shit if the design happened to be (purely hypothetical) inherently flawed for certain facial structures, pupilary distances, bridge shapes, ect... I'm not really sure how they're going to get that kind of feed back without letting a large and varied group of people try it over extended periods. Certainly a 5 or 10 minute demo at trade shows isn't going to provide much worthwhile detail.
 

Mindlog

Member
Hardware makers should be more invested. This technology presents a possible massive counterpoint to an inevitable stream-based future.
 

Shawsie64

Banned
It's funny...in the QuakeCon Panel, they basically say I shouldn't buy it. But hell, I'm buying it anyways. I know exactly what I'm getting into. I'm not a developer, but I am too excited about the experience and I'd love to be a part of it. Furthermore, as a graphics enthusiast, I think I can at least bring some valuable criticisms or feedback to the table.

Yeah I feel the same way.. I know exactly what im getting into. If I can spend $150 on trackir, $600 on a racing wheel and $200 on a flight stick I'm sure I can spend $300 for an early version of this thing. Cant wait to tinker with it and see what the community comes up with. They're probably trying to lower expectations that most people will have of the device.
 

Zaptruder

Banned
No. Closest I've ever come was wishing one of those crazy Sega arcade machines would come to a place near me :lol.

You may be right about it better conveying the force of Gs, but I still without hands on experience, it's impossible for me to know.

P.S. I challenge anyone to turn up the volume and watch this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZL74ygiVoo

If you're not dying of laughter, you're a better person than me.

I can see where you're coming from, but I still don't find that funny. Just fuggin awesome!
 
No. Games have to support the device specifically and the only one that does is Doom III BFG Edition.

The Oculus Rift they are selling for $300 is basically an SDK for developers.


yeah this. Expect software to be limited in the first few initial months, I would imagine. Though you could always test your luck and try to get your name in as a beta tester for some of these projects. You never know. Even if you aren't a developer you could be useful for testing other peoples software.


If not, I think it's best to just wait for the retail version.

Dude. That thing looks like shit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDBQI12n4Zo

one of these with a proper VR headset = holy shitballs batman.


That's awesome! But at the same time, such a device could never be sold at retail. Imagine the potential lawsuits just waiting to happen. :O
 

1-D_FTW

Member
And it should be noted, even Doom 3 isn't totally optimized. Carmack said during the keynote that you can play through it and it's really cool, but things like cut scenes (and a couple things I forget) have issues with it.

I'm kinda torn though. Because if I knew a game like rfactor 2 would support it (and I don't think a racing sim would be that difficult compared to other genres), I'd still do it. I just question what we'll be seeing before the consumer version is released.

That's awesome! But at the same time, such a device could never be sold at retail. Imagine the potential lawsuits just waiting to happen. :O

They don't sell them at retail (despite being sold), because they sell for the price of an expensive car. An even bigger issue than potential lawsuits. :O
 
And it should be noted, even Doom 3 isn't totally optimized. Carmack said during the keynote that you can play through it and it's really cool, but things like cut scenes (and a couple things I forget) have issues with it.

I'm kinda torn though. Because if I knew a game like rfactor 2 would support it (and I don't think a racing sim would be that difficult compared to other genres), I'd still do it. I just question what we'll be seeing before the consumer version is released.



They don't sell them at retail (despite being sold), because they sell for the price of an expensive car. An even bigger issue than potential lawsuits. :O

Well, yeas that too. But I was just pointing out that such a device could never be sold publicly without taking on a million warnings and including additional safety precautions. The thing looks like it could be dangerous if used carelessly.
 

mrklaw

MrArseFace
Those motion platforms tilt to simulate g-forces right? Shouldnt you really have a dark room so you can only see the screen, otherwise your peripheral vision will see the surrounding room and mess with the effect
 

pmj

Member
I'm kinda torn though. Because if I knew a game like rfactor 2 would support it (and I don't think a racing sim would be that difficult compared to other genres), I'd still do it. I just question what we'll be seeing before the consumer version is released.

In some ways HMDs seem like a perfect fit for racing games, as you sit down and usually don't move your head all that much, but you wouldn't be able to see your wheel, shifter, and your hands that you constantly move around as you drive. I'm not sure I could deal with that.
 

Shawsie64

Banned
And it should be noted, even Doom 3 isn't totally optimized. Carmack said during the keynote that you can play through it and it's really cool, but things like cut scenes (and a couple things I forget) have issues with it.

I'm kinda torn though. Because if I knew a game like rfactor 2 would support it (and I don't think a racing sim would be that difficult compared to other genres), I'd still do it. I just question what we'll be seeing before the consumer version is released.



They don't sell them at retail (despite being sold), because they sell for the price of an expensive car. An even bigger issue than potential lawsuits. :O

It certainly is a gamble being an early adopter, I have low expectations but if someone was to mod in support for rfactor 2 i'd be blown away.
 

TTP

Have a fun! Enjoy!
In some ways HMDs seem like a perfect fit for racing games, as you sit down and usually don't move your head all that much, but you wouldn't be able to see your wheel, shifter, and your hands that you constantly move around as you drive. I'm not sure I could deal with that.

Well, if you use paddle shifters, you could drive "blindly".
 

1-D_FTW

Member
I know some of you have mentioned Leap in this thread, but I had no idea it was such a promising piece of technology. And for only 69.99. They claim the latency is a lot lower than Kinect, but I wonder how low they can truly get.

In some ways HMDs seem like a perfect fit for racing games, as you sit down and usually don't move your head all that much, but you wouldn't be able to see your wheel, shifter, and your hands that you constantly move around as you drive. I'm not sure I could deal with that.

I didn't have those issues with the HMZ. That said, if the FOV is only 45 degrees, I get the same thing on my monitor. So it did nothing for me. It didn't feel any more immersive to me with those specs.
 

Persona86

Banned
I'm curious, when you look forward the Oculus is meant to cover your whole view to make you feel like your there, but what happens when you move your eyes to the right or left? Does the immersion stay the same?
 

Zaptruder

Banned
Well, yeas that too. But I was just pointing out that such a device could never be sold publicly without taking on a million warnings and including additional safety precautions. The thing looks like it could be dangerous if used carelessly.

By this reasoning, they couldn't sell knives, power tools and guns. But as a specialized device, no you're not going to find it in the corner of Best Buy if that's what you meant.

Those motion platforms tilt to simulate g-forces right? Shouldnt you really have a dark room so you can only see the screen, otherwise your peripheral vision will see the surrounding room and mess with the effect

Yes. Which is why VR + this would be perfect, and provide an experience closer to and in some ways better than the multi tens of millions simulation testing centres that big car companies use for driver safety development and all that.

I'm curious, when you look forward the Oculus is meant to cover your whole view to make you feel like your there, but what happens when you move your eyes to the right or left? Does the immersion stay the same?

The head tracking is supposed to simulate the movement of viewpoint, so if you look left, you'll see what you should see if you were to look left... and similarly if you look right.

But just the eyes - you'll see blurrier corners of the screen because of the way the distortion correction works in this setup; you'll probably also see the edges of the HMD... but in my personal experience, this isn't a big issue. Much bigger issue is latency and or lack of tracking.
 

mrklaw

MrArseFace
vr+ a motion platform would introduce its own problems though. It could be tilting left to simulate lateral G, but in the game world you're still level. How would the helmet know? I guess you'd need to get the angles from the motion platform and adjust the inputs from the head tracking to compensate.
 

Zaptruder

Banned
vr+ a motion platform would introduce its own problems though. It could be tilting left to simulate lateral G, but in the game world you're still level. How would the helmet know? I guess you'd need to get the angles from the motion platform and adjust the inputs from the head tracking to compensate.

Yeah, it's not an easy problem to solve. I did think about the same issue, but not in relation to a motion platform.
 

Persona86

Banned
The head tracking is supposed to simulate the movement of viewpoint, so if you look left, you'll see what you should see if you were to look left... and similarly if you look right.

But just the eyes - you'll see blurrier corners of the screen because of the way the distortion correction works in this setup; you'll probably also see the edges of the HMD... but in my personal experience, this isn't a big issue. Much bigger issue is latency and or lack of tracking.

Ah yes I had a feeling it was like this, no big deal. Maybe in the future the FOV will be improved even more so that it will look clear even when moving the eyes to look at corners etc
 

HoosTrax

Member
The sense of depth is just amazing - so far beyond 3D (but not in a silly pop-out way). Everything just somehow has a tangible "weight" and depth to it. When you move to the edge of a ledge and look down - you feel the vertigo in your gut. I experienced simulator sickness for the first time - not just some general discomfort. But a strong and instant gutteral feeling as I was looking down a hole and swaying back and forth.
This sounds terrible. (In a good way)

What I mean by that is that I have a severe fear of heights (enough that I won't walk anywhere near the glass railings on the top floor of a shopping mall for example). Severe enough that I even get vertigo and a feeling in the pit of my stomach playing FPSs on a normal screen when there's a drop. Jumping off of the top of the CTF-Face tower in UT is a kind of terrifying thrill.
 
This sounds terrible. (In a good way)

What I mean by that is that I have a severe fear of heights (enough that I won't walk anywhere near the glass railings on the top floor of a shopping mall for example). Severe enough that I even get vertigo and a feeling in the pit of my stomach playing FPSs on a normal screen when there's a drop. Jumping off of the top of the CTF-Face tower in UT is a kind of terrifying thrill.

Maybe you could cure that by playing some Mirrors Edge VR edition? I believe one attendant at the Quakecon panel even asked a question about using VR to treat people with post-traumatic stress disorder.
 

Persona86

Banned
Maybe you could cure that by playing some Mirrors Edge VR edition? I believe one attendant at the Quakecon panel even asked a question about using VR to treat people with post-traumatic stress disorder.

You just made me realise that Mirror's Edge 2 with this Rift VR setup would be amazing.
 
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