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OFFICIAL ELECTION THREAD MEANS ALL ELECTION-RELATED STUFF GOES IN HERE, DUR
- Thread starter Mandark
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Do The Mario
Unconfirmed Member
Wow fresh prince its good debating things with someone who isnt so narrow minded.
Anyway the FTA is not a bad thing for the economy but its probably a slight benefit but the government did make the FTA sound more beneficial then it is, (personally I cant blame them.)
Casual Employment growth is good but there was also significant growth in the full time employment. If I dont get a job out of University I will get a scholarship to do my diploma of education or I will go back and do honors. I also want to get involved in politics when I am older.
I will agree to disagree but those ads on television done by the teachers union were very misleading.
Anyway what state do you live in? Myself Western Australia
Anyway the FTA is not a bad thing for the economy but its probably a slight benefit but the government did make the FTA sound more beneficial then it is, (personally I cant blame them.)
Casual Employment growth is good but there was also significant growth in the full time employment. If I dont get a job out of University I will get a scholarship to do my diploma of education or I will go back and do honors. I also want to get involved in politics when I am older.
I will agree to disagree but those ads on television done by the teachers union were very misleading.
Anyway what state do you live in? Myself Western Australia
MightyHedgehog
Member
efralope said:
It certainly is untrue, for me. We didn't need to do what we did. Why go into Iraq in the manner that we did when, really, the necessity of doing so wasn't there? WMDs? Tenous Al Qaeda ties? I just don't see it. We have the single-greatest, most-capable organization of world-intelligence gathering and expertise in the world.
With the way things went before and after the invasion and subsequent occupation of Iraq, it was clear that there simply was not enough information to justify the military action we persued. Intentionally or not, the American people were mislead and made to believe that what we did was absolutely necessary at the time...when, clearly, it was not. Anyway, that's my assessment and I've yet to see a reason to see it any other way. It was far too politically-motivated, IMO, to be considered anything but a way to blow our load on an 'easy target.'
Alcibiades
Member
interesting:SFA_AOK said:
-Bush won the Catholic vote overall, and won devout Catholics but lost slighly more loose Catholics...
-he improved among Black and Hispanic vote...
-He got 40% of the Hispanic vote
-He got 23% of the GLBT vote
-39% of responded had pro-life stance
-Bush won the pro-civil union vote (51-48%) and got 22% of pro-same sex marriage vote
-Bush lost the Jewish vote, but improved by 5 points to 24% this year...
soundwave05
Member
The non-whites hate Bush, lol. I think Bush made some inroads with the Cuban community though to be able to win like that in Florida especailly.
Do The Mario
Unconfirmed Member
Ill Saint said:
Please you dont know what youre talking about; Australia has a PBS and public healthcare system that is one of the finest in the world.
The only problem is bulk billing rates have dropped but Medicare + and the Private health rebate make up for this.
Fresh Prince
Banned
After this I'm going to sleep 
I live in Victoria, anyway I wouldn't mind joining the Labour Party but I don't want to get my alligiences in too early. On that political compass that floats around on the internet I was exactly in the middle (dead centre)- I don't want to ruin it with my new found liberalism
I live in Victoria, anyway I wouldn't mind joining the Labour Party but I don't want to get my alligiences in too early. On that political compass that floats around on the internet I was exactly in the middle (dead centre)- I don't want to ruin it with my new found liberalism
fse
Member
...on several swing states, and EVERY STATE that has EVoting but no paper trails has an unexplained advantage for Bush of around +5% when comparing exit polls to actual results.
In EVERY STATE that has paper audit trails on their EVoting, the exit poll results match the actual results reported within the margin of error.
So we have MATCHING RESULTS for exit polls vs. voting with audits
vs.
A 5% unexplained advantage for Bush without audits.
Maybe Dubayah believes God will see him through this, but it's going to take more than blind faith to pull the wool over the data and the facts.
In EVERY STATE that has paper audit trails on their EVoting, the exit poll results match the actual results reported within the margin of error.
So we have MATCHING RESULTS for exit polls vs. voting with audits
vs.
A 5% unexplained advantage for Bush without audits.
Maybe Dubayah believes God will see him through this, but it's going to take more than blind faith to pull the wool over the data and the facts.
Alcibiades
Member
I didn't mention the tenous Al Qaeda ties...MightyHedgehog said:
I don't see how it can be "untrue" that Saddam defied the council, didn't provide evidence or wherabouts of weapons, finanically supported suicide bombings in Israel, and committed human rights atrocities...
Whether or not something is "enough information to justify military action" (which we can agree wasn't there), the issues I laid out existed as justification (though WMD was the big one)...
you can't combine "misguided" and "highly-suspect"... they are very different terms...
Something can be absolutely true (and no supsect) and used as justification, and misguided at the same time...
Alcibiades
Member
actually, I think he got less of the Cuban vote this time around, it was the non-Cuban Hispanics I think he did better with this time than last year...soundwave05 said:
obviously 40% of Latinos (me included) don't hate him...
soundwave05
Member
Well regardless the majority of Latinos still are democratic, by a fair margin at that.
Time to close those borders if you're a Republican, lol.
Time to close those borders if you're a Republican, lol.
Do The Mario
Unconfirmed Member
Seth C said:Haha...at what point did I earn my new tag?
At least you have a tag
Sniff sniff
There is still a slim chance for Kerry if he wins Ohio.
Assume Bush gets Iowa and New Mexico; that's 7 votes added to 254, making it 261 as his final electoral vote count. Kerry takes Ohio, and 252 goes to 272. Kerry wins. I just don't know how he is going to, though... republicans will ultimately be making decisions, even if democratic voter turnout ends up being higher in Ohio. They did the same thing to Gore in 2000, who's to say they won't cheat (that's right, I said cheat) themselves into a republican win again?
Assume Bush gets Iowa and New Mexico; that's 7 votes added to 254, making it 261 as his final electoral vote count. Kerry takes Ohio, and 252 goes to 272. Kerry wins. I just don't know how he is going to, though... republicans will ultimately be making decisions, even if democratic voter turnout ends up being higher in Ohio. They did the same thing to Gore in 2000, who's to say they won't cheat (that's right, I said cheat) themselves into a republican win again?
efralope said:
The problem with these other potentially true reasons now being used to justify the war... is that the President didn't mention them in his speech that he gave just before we went in. I just took a quick glance at it to refresh my memory, and the only thing in there that is close to the above is the defying the council part basically. Sorry IMO that's not enough anymore. The speech claims they confirmed that he still had WMD's, and that is the overriding reason why we went in, to prevent their use against us and others. Except when we got there.... no WMD's.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/03/20030317-7.html
What are the most recent poll stats on Ohio?
Alcibiades
Member
-Ed Kochiapetus said:
-Ron Silver
-Zell Miller
-St. Paul mayor
-Youngstown mayor...
Ron Silver terms himself a "9/12 Republican"...
sometimes, security > social issues...
soundwave05
Member
Obviously if Kerry by some miracle wins Ohio, he wins the presidency.
New Mexico and Iowa are 5 and 7 electoral votes, respectively. So 12 more would be added to Bush's total making 266. If he wins Ohio, that makes it 286-252 which is nowhere near as close as 2000's outcome. If Kerry gets Ohio and Bush gets both Iowa and NM, it's 272-266. Which is much closer to the 2000 election (where it was 271-267).
edit - Exit polls proved wrong in several states again this year. I hope news companies stop relying on them so much in future elections...
edit - Exit polls proved wrong in several states again this year. I hope news companies stop relying on them so much in future elections...
Alcibiades
Member
Actually, true, but Democrat != Kerry voter...soundwave05 said:
I'm a Democrat too, but nationally I voted for Bush...
supposedly, Bush did well in New Mexico in some poor, Mexican Catholic communities because of religion...
little by little, the Republicans are peeling away the Hispanic (especially Mexican I think) vote...
soundwave05
Member
The Catholic Church and Pope denounced the war in Iraq though.
But no one listens to them anymore anyway, so I guess that's moot, lol.
I think it presents an interesting dillemma for the Republicans in the future though, if they support lax immigration and border laws, that might upset their core caucasian/southern base.
A lot of conservatives (and some liberals too) really have a problem with the amount of immigrants coming up from Mexico, but this election for them was all about the terror issue primarily.
But no one listens to them anymore anyway, so I guess that's moot, lol.
I think it presents an interesting dillemma for the Republicans in the future though, if they support lax immigration and border laws, that might upset their core caucasian/southern base.
A lot of conservatives (and some liberals too) really have a problem with the amount of immigrants coming up from Mexico, but this election for them was all about the terror issue primarily.
Optimistic
Member
f_elz said:
Let's see, Crazy conspiracy theory vs the theory that like in any other country, the majority of voters are stupid fucking sheep who can't think for themselves. Sorry man, but the latter is much more plausible.
Alcibiades
Member
their caucasion vote needs cheap labor, not a big deal...
Pennsylvania is tighter than Ohio and that got called early last night for Kerry. It seems absurd that Ohio hasn't been given to Bush in comparison. Fair to assume this is a mix of absentee and provisional votes favouring Kerry, the overwhelmingly liberal news outlets not wanting to admit defeat until Kerry does and just fear of a 2000 repeat?
and as efralope hints, checking out fahrenhype 9/11 will help you understand the Democrats for Bush psyche.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2092-1312869_1,00.htmliapetus said:
and as efralope hints, checking out fahrenhype 9/11 will help you understand the Democrats for Bush psyche.
soundwave05
Member
Big business yeah, but the general Caucasian electorate I believe views the immigration from Mexico very unfavorably.
MightyHedgehog
Member
efralope said:
Sorry, but the Al Queda reference was being bandied about by the Bush administration after the military action took place...IIRC...but you did not mention this...true. Even with the other known criminal actions of the Iraqi regime, they were not something that we needed to act on as we did. Potential WMDs in Iraq's possesion were the primary reason for invading, but, as it is known, there was very little (if any) evidence to support such ideas.
The timing of our invasion was political. The spin and sales-pitch used on the American people was political. This was clearly a politcal action, IMO.
misguided: poorly conceived or thought out
suspect (usage: highly-suspect): regarded as untrustworthy, fishy; have no faith or confidence in
"...but I don't care for the misguided, highly-suspect reasoning..."
Makes sense to me.
Anyway, this is pointless...and I'm too tired to care about this for the moment and I'm starting to feel my brain leak out of my ears...reliable logic is not sustainable right now for me....need sleep.
Alcibiades
Member
I didn't mention Al-Qaida ties cause I know they weren't strongly collaborative and so harder to prove...
I know they mentioned Al-Qaida and made WMD their main issue, but if you saw the extended dialogue taking place on CPSAN and PBS, and the House of Commons in Britain, you'd see a wider debate and range of issues and reasoning than what was presented on
I know they mentioned Al-Qaida and made WMD their main issue, but if you saw the extended dialogue taking place on CPSAN and PBS, and the House of Commons in Britain, you'd see a wider debate and range of issues and reasoning than what was presented on
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