Support NeoGAF

[Anton Sugar]

But with deliberately avoiding any real fatigue during a workout... I'm not sure how I'd go about it. How do you know how much to lift? When do you know to move the lbs up? What type of resistance do you work to? I could be interested in this as a switch up routine, but it would be a change of mindset for myself.

It's all based on calculation and periodization. A lot of these concepts were based in developing strength and strength alone, with little increase in size. Each workout's weight is known weeks in advance, starting low (probably 70-80% of a RM), training your body to adapt to heavy weight. It is highly neurological/nervous system based, which is why there is not much focus on hypertrophy. Put EXTREMELY simply, your body is not going to lift anything if your brain isn't going to allow it. This is why not having a strong grip will not allow you to lift a weight (ASIDE from the weight being too heavy to hold onto...most people underestimate their grip strength for one rep); your brain is given the signal "can't lift the weight" and it won't budge.

Your body WANTS to be sedentary and at rest. You have to TRAIN it to use heavy weight. While hypertrophy-based strength gains have been shown to last longer than CNS-based strength gains, they are still very useful. I'll try and find some of the classic articles--Pavel's book "Power to the People!" was where I had read about this, but he basically uncovered/publicized ideas that were only well known to the power/weightlifting communities (hey, what do you know? Kinda like Rippetoe...).

EDIT: Some articles.

3-5 Method for Strength Gains

That first exposure to Pavel was phenomenal. He outlined a very simple, straightforward plan to complete strength. He called it ‘the 3 to 5 Plan’. Three to five, or even two, exercises for the whole body. 3-5 days between workouts. 3-5 sets of 3-5 reps. 3-5 minutes rest between sets. That’s it. Very simple. Very effective. Very Pavel.

I took that knowledge home with me, and with a few borrowed concrete weights, managed to deadlift 245 for 5 reps in a relatively short period of time. I had never deadlifted before, and started with 85 pounds or so. Great gains I thought. My travels and lifestyle took me away from weight lifting again soon after this, and I only picked it up again last spring. Using the 3-5 method, I worked up to 5x5 with a 300 lb. deadlift (I ran out of weights) and soon after that to a 3x3 240 lb one legged deadlift, both legs. I used the Bent press as my other lift of choice and was soon hefting 75 lbs overhead rather easily for reps.

Simplied Approach to Powerlifting

I used to be enthralled at "The Barbarians" and Dorian Yates and their balls to the wall training style. Getting those hard fought last couple reps were the key to getting bigger and stronger I believed. WRONG! Intensity is not a grimace and a backwards baseball cap, it is a mathematical formula! That Mathematical formula is based on all the reps you do above about 40-50% of 1RM in a time period, say a month, and what the percent of your 1RM was your average rep.

There a many permutations and combinations of workout schemes you can try! -3x3, 5x5, 54321, 32123, 8x3,the list is endless, but your recovery ability is not! A key idea here is you do not have to work to failure. A great guideline is to do 5-6 reps with a weight you can do 10-12 reps with as your core sets. (Roman/Pavel)

Grease the Groove

Specificity + frequent practice = success. It is so obvious, most people don't get it. Once I came across a question posted on a popular powerlifting website by a young Marine: how should he train to be able to do more chin-ups? I was amused when I read the arcane and non-specific advice the trooper had received: straight-arm pull-downs, reverse curls, avoiding the negative part of the chin-up every third workout... I had a radical thought: if you want to get good at chin-ups, why not try to do... a lot of chin-ups? Just a couple of months earlier I had put my father-in-law Roger Antonson, incidentally an ex-Marine, on a program which required him to do an easy five chins every time he went down to his basement. Each day he would total between twenty-five and a hundred chin-ups hardly breaking a sweat. Every month or so Roger would take a few days off and then test himself. Before you knew it, the old leatherneck could knock off twenty consecutive chins, more than he could do forty years ago during his service with the few good men!

Both Roger and I got stronger through the process of synaptic facilitation. Neurogeeks never got around to telling iron heads that repetitive and reasonably intense stimulation of a motoneuron increases the strength of its synaptic connections and may even form new synapses. Translated in English it means that multiple repetitions of a bench press will 'grease up' this powerlift's groove. More 'juice' will reach the muscle when you are benching your max. The muscle will contract harder and you will have a new PR to brag about. Four times powerlifting world record holder Dr. Judd Biasiotto set up a bench in his kitchen, got in the habit of hitting it every time he was in the area and put up a 319BP @ 132!

 

[yacobod]

Of course.
Two things though –
1. Increasing reps is not the best way to increase weight.
2. It is likely that you’re going to feel sorer after day eight, since higher reps usually results in more soreness.

Pushing yourself is key, and learning to like the soreness is important mentally.
The only thing I’m saying is that soreness is not a reliable enough indicator for progress.
It may be good enough for a beginner, but I think that’s in the long run you need more accurate tools for measuring your advancement, like a pen and paper .

indeed

i just noted that because it's not possible to add weight to the bar everytime going to the gym, if it were we'd have everyone benching 600+ lbs, squatting 800+, and deadlifting 1k+ lbs

so you have to make other kinds of progress, doing more reps, cutting back on rest time, do an extra set, etc etc

 

[Anton Sugar]

indeed

i just noted that because it's not possible to add weight to the bar everytime going to the gym, if it were we'd have everyone benching 600+ lbs, squatting 800+, and deadlifting 1k+ lbs

so you have to make other kinds of progress, doing more reps, cutting back on rest time, do an extra set, etc etc

Yup. I think one of the biggest differences between a novice and an intermediate lifter is a sense of maturity and patience. Gains aren't ALWAYS going to come...you have to let your ego take a back seat, cycle the weight back down, and build back up. 2 steps forward, 1 back, repeat. If I could increase my bench 5 lbs every week, or even every 2 weeks...in five short years I'd have gained 500+ lbs on it. Not happening.

 

[lil smoke]

Godd stuff Snrub, I'm gonna read up on it.

And c'mon guys, you are taking what I'm saying to the extreme here (par for the course at GAF) I understand that you can't add weight to infinity for keep getting stronger and stronger.

 

[reilo]

Any real differences between chin-ups or pull-ups? Or should I not be too concerned about which grip I work with?

 

[Chichikov]

Any real differences between chin-ups or pull-ups? Or should I not be too concerned about which grip I work with?

Pulls ups are more effective as a lats exercise; chin ups work the biceps more.
So pull ups are a bit more functional (and harder) but if you’re going to work your biceps anyway, you might as well do chin ups every now and then, it’s a better use of your time than curls.

 

[reilo]

Pulls ups are more effective as a lats exercise; chin ups work the biceps more.
So pull ups are a bit more functional (and harder) but if you’re going to work your biceps anyway, you might as well do chin ups every now and then, it’s a better use of your time than curls.

Yeah I want to focus more on my biceps for now. I'll probably alternate between each set.

 

[Anton Sugar]

Godd stuff Snrub, I'm gonna read up on it.

And c'mon guys, you are taking what I'm saying to the extreme here (par for the course at GAF) I understand that you can't add weight to infinity for keep getting stronger and stronger.

:lol

Yeah, I totally get what you're saying. To be fair, all the information I linked is just another, almost completely different way of training, with different goals in mind. Right now, I'm trying to gain size AND strength, so yeah, at the end of Monday's workout, even though it's low reps, it's lots of sets of high weight, so I feel like shit at the end. Friday, I do higher reps with lower weight, and feel like shit in a completely different way. Wednesday is my maintenance day, the only day I feel good afterwards.

All depends on your goals. Once I reach the size I want, I'd probably switch to strength-specialized routines.

 

[ice cream]

Ok, GAF. I want to lose my fat... I'm not that fat or anything but my belly does stick out about 4-5 cm from where my penis is (if that makes sense)...
I want to lose, so should I just run everyday? And for how long?
Also what diet do you guys recommend?

My school finishes next week and I have a month pass at a gym so I'm wonderin if I should use it up since all I'm going to be doing is running, since i heard its not good to work on muscles while you're still a bit..

Hope you guys can answer, thanks.

EDIT: Ok, low-car diet it is!

 

[Ace 8095]

Ok, GAF. I want to lose my fat... I'm not that fat or anything but my belly does stick out about 4-5 cm from where my penis is (if that makes sense)...
I want to lose, so should I just run everyday? And for how long?
Also what diet do you guys recommend?

My school finishes next week and I have a month pass at a gym so I'm wonderin if I should use it up since all I'm going to be doing is running, since i heard its not good to work on muscles while you're still a bit..

Hope you guys can answer, thanks.

If all you want to do is lose a little fat the fastest way would be through HIIT and a strict diet, but there is no reason to wait till your thin to start lifting weights. Read the OP.

 

[Squall5042]

Hey all!
Just started at a real gym this week after doing the home workout-thing for a few months, and ugh it feels so much better.

What I hate is how huge everyone is compared to my stick arms :lol I feel like such an asshole lifting nothing compared to these ripped guys - so when you're at your gym and you see a skinny guy trying hard, be nice

 

[Chichikov]

Ok, GAF. I want to lose my fat... I'm not that fat or anything but my belly does stick out about 4-5 cm from where my penis is (if that makes sense)...
I want to lose, so should I just run everyday? And for how long?
Also what diet do you guys recommend?

Fastest way to lose weight healthily is through a combination of eating right and exercise.
The OP has a lot of good info.

My school finishes next week and I have a month pass at a gym so I'm wonderin if I should use it up since all I'm going to be doing is running, since i heard its not good to work on muscles while you're still a bit..

Still a bit what?
Anyway, there’s nothing wrong with incorporating strength training into you routine, I would personally recommend it.

EDIT: Ok, low-car diet it is!

I think it’s a good idea to limit your automobile intake regardless of your weight goals.

 

[Spiritreaver]

Hey all!
Just started at a real gym this week after doing the home workout-thing for a few months, and ugh it feels so much better.

What I hate is how huge everyone is compared to my stick arms :lol I feel like such an asshole lifting nothing compared to these ripped guys - so when you're at your gym and you see a skinny guy trying hard, be nice

:lol Hey at least you're skinny. I'm the guy who looks big but can't do shite for weights. You get used to it, everyone's there to better themselves.

Today is leg day for me, and I've been slacking on legs lately so I think I'm gonna go crazy today, get back into my routine.

 

[aznpxdd]

:lol Hey at least you're skinny. I'm the guy who looks big but can't do shite for weights. You get used to it, everyone's there to better themselves.

Today is leg day for me, and I've been slacking on legs lately so I think I'm gonna go crazy today, get back into my routine.

What routine are you doing of your legs? I'm thinking of one myself, but I'm not too familiar with leg exercises (other than the typical).

 

[Spiritreaver]

What routine are you doing of your legs? I'm thinking of one myself, but I'm not too familiar with leg exercises (other than the typical).

Ah, I'm really not the one you shuld ask. I'm still a beginner at this, this has only been my fourth month lifting in my life lol.

Here's what I do though, I'm going to get reamed though.

Squats 3x6
BB Lunges 2x12
Leg Extensions 3x8
Calf exercise 2x12

Sometimes I do curls too, but I really need to get away from the machines. I think I'm gonna try incorporating other versions of squats that I've been lazy about. Drop the extensions too and do other squats. Also, I up the weight on each set, so the last set is always hard for me, generally it's high enough that I can't finish the set out. Also I never touch the leg press machine anymore, I can keep my form down pat and it'll still bother my back. I have to keep the weight way too low to avoid that too.

Compared to what I read from everyone here, I think it's a pretty shitty routine and I need to take a different approach. I mean it's been working, but what isn't going to work for me at this point. What do I know though, I'm still learning.

EDIT: Actually glad I kinda posted this. I'm willing to try something new tonight.

 

[Captain Glanton]

I'm back!

 

[Mr.City]

I've never done a power clean before. I don't even know where to start.

 

[Ace 8095]

I've never done a power clean before. I don't even know where to start.

Start here http://startingstrength.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ#The_Powerclean

Also read the deadlift section as it is part of the powerclean.

 

[Straightballin]

I'm back!

Good. If you can look at my post on the previous page and other peoples respones. I could of sworn that someone said what I was trying to explain.

 

[aznpxdd]

*routine*

Compared to what I read from everyone here, I think it's a pretty shitty routine and I need to take a different approach. I mean it's been working, but what isn't going to work for me at this point. What do I know though, I'm still learning.

EDIT: Actually glad I kinda posted this. I'm willing to try something new tonight.

Heh yeah, I only started lifting a couple months ago, and I'm not exactly sure what I should do for my legs.

Anyways, this is what I'm doing on Mon/Wed for my arm and chest:

Bench Press
Incline Dumbbell Press
Barbell Curls
Dumbbell Rows
Dumbell Pullovers
Shoulder Press

I also do some machines when I feel like it, is it better to cut them out and do strictly free weights? Plus, what other exercises would you guys recommend I include?

 

[Captain Glanton]

So after reading this thread, Im under the impression you cannot lose fat and gain muscle at the same time. So how exactly do you lose the fat to get more "cut" up? Would it be taking off a month from weightlifiting and going purely on cardio and aerboic exercises and a diet? Then inevitably I guess you would lose muscle as well and strength and have to work you way back up.

It's very difficult, although the newer you are to exercise, the easier it would be to do both at the same time.

If you want to get 'cut up,' then you need to prioritize your fat loss over your strength gains. This will happen mostly in your diet--as you decrease your calories to drop fat, your body won't be able to maintain the demands made by your muscles for more fuel to repair themselves, i.e., grow. But this does NOT mean that you should back off on your lifting. You should try to lift as hard as you are now, but your results will drop as your calorie intake drops and your cardio work goes up. Basically, you will be hitting the weights as hard as ever, just to maintain the strength levels you have now.

Almost every bodybuilder getting ready for a show--the most extreme example of 'getting cut'--loses strength and muscle size as their bodyfat goes down. Their goal is minimize their strength and size loses as they diet down, even though they're still lifting as hard as they can.

Heh yeah, I only started lifting a couple months ago, and I'm not exactly sure what I should do for my legs.

Try this:
Two "Leg Days" a week.

Day 1: Squats, 5 sets X 5 reps; Jump Squats, 3 sets X 6 reps; Lunges, two laps across the gym holding dumbbells
Day 2: Front Squats, 5 X 5; Front Hacks, 3 X 8; Glute-Ham Raises, 3 sets to failure

You do that with intensity, and your legs will grow.

 

[mr stroke]

I've never done a power clean before. I don't even know where to start.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=6TlbDQUWs0s

 

[winston_pr]

Pec flies, pec flies and more pec flies. Preferably with dumbells on a bench (incline and flat). Oh and do some wide grip benching (both on flat and incline). Cable pullovers are also good. Just dedicate a session to doing chest stuff, its a large enough area.

I haven't done Pec flies, but focused on bench-pressing, will rework my routine and come back with impressions.

 

[aznpxdd]

Try this:
Two "Leg Days" a week.

Day 1: Squats, 5 sets X 5 reps; Jump Squats, 3 sets X 6 reps; Lunges, two laps across the gym holding dumbbells
Day 2: Front Squats, 5 X 5; Front Hacks, 3 X 8; Glute-Ham Raises, 3 sets to failure

You do that with intensity, and your legs will grow.

Thanks, do you recommend jump squats with dumbells or no?

 

[pollo]

Hey guys, so I've been reading a few articles on food in order to supplement my workout- and I found this book at Borders that I'd like to share with all of you:

I've been reading this during my lunch hours the past few days -- and yea, he presents a pretty good argument for why a western diet has led us to all these health related problems, type 2 diabetes, cardiovascular diseases, etc.

It also touches on a couple more things, like the industrialization of food, what a crock of shit "nutritionism" is, why societies like the inuits stay so healthy despite a diet of whale blubber, and how our basic consumption boils down to 4 foods - corn, rice, soy, wheat. He gives a combination of anecdotal evidence and some studies that were on the right path about food, but were looked over thanks to the Food Industry's pro-active mission to kill anything that spoke about the evils of homogenization.

He also argues why it's better to eat with people instead of by yourself, why mixing foods is important(apparently eating a cracker and peanut butter separately are not as healthy as eating them together), and shit like Go-Gurt, Yogurt or how those other high-fructose "snacks" are horrible for your body.

But given the pace at which society runs, Pollan ultimately recognizes that growing our own food, rotating our own crops is not practical, and so his basic advice is what's on the cover: "Eat food. Not too much. Mostly Plants." Sad, because this scares me into thinking twice about anything I put in my mouth, even vegetables.

Highly, highly, highly recommended reading that should probably be in the OP one day

Here's some reviews:

NPR: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=17725932

NYT: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/03/books/03masl.html

A more negative take, but this guy seems like he's pissed that he can't do anything about the food he eats:

Slate: http://www.slate.com/id/2180504/

 

[reilo]

Ugh, yeah, if I ever became a vegan I'd probably die of starvation or malnutrition because of my ridiculously fast metabolism.

 

[Chichikov]

Hey guys, so I've been reading a few articles on food in order to supplement my workout- and I found this book at Borders that I'd like to share with all of you:

http://www.michaelpollan.com/InDefenseFood_cover_med.jpg

I've been reading this during my lunch hours the past few days -- and yea, he presents a pretty good argument for why a western diet has led us to all these health related problems, type 2 diabetes, cardiovascular diseases, etc.

It also touches on a couple more things, like the industrialization of food, what a crock of shit "nutritionism" is, why societies like the inuits stay so healthy despite a diet of whale blubber, and how our basic consumption boils down to 4 foods - corn, rice, soy, wheat. He gives a combination of anecdotal evidence and some studies that were on the right path about food, but were looked over thanks to the Food Industry's pro-active mission to kill anything that spoke about the evils of homogenization.

He also argues why it's better to eat with people instead of by yourself, why mixing foods is important(apparently eating a cracker and peanut butter separately are not as healthy as eating them together), and shit like Go-Gurt, Yogurt or how those other high-fructose "snacks" are horrible for your body.

But given the pace at which society runs, Pollan ultimately recognizes that growing our own food, rotating our own crops is not practical, and so his basic advice is what's on the cover: "Eat food. Not too much. Mostly Plants." Sad, because this scares me into thinking twice about anything I put in my mouth, even vegetables.

Highly, highly, highly recommended reading that should probably be in the OP one day

Here's some reviews:

NPR: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=17725932

NYT: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/03/books/03masl.html

A more negative take, but this guy seems like he's pissed that he can't do anything about the food he eats:

Slate: http://www.slate.com/id/2180504/

Absolutely.
I pretty sure I already linked his great NY Times piece 'Unhappy Meals' in this thread.
But what the hell, one more time, with feeling.
His books are highly recommended, and he's also a great speaker (if he ever come to your town).

Ugh, yeah, if I ever became a vegan I'd probably die of starvation or malnutrition because of my ridiculously fast metabolism.

He's not advocating vegetarianism.

 

[reilo]

Absolutely.
I pretty sure I already linked his great NY Times piece 'Unhappy Meals' in this thread.
But what the hell, one more time, with feeling.
His books are highly recommended, and he's also a great speaker (if he ever come to your town).


He's not advocating vegetarianism.

Then what does the statement "eat mostly plants" mean?

 

[pollo]

i think at one part he says the healthiest societies are the ones that don't even consume plants: intuits, some Egyptian societies....

Then what does the statement "eat mostly plants" mean?

He's basically saying the rest of our food is so processed and homogenized that it's typically all the same shit. Plants on the other hand are harder to screw up, (ideally he wants you to grow your own shit, but it's kind of impractical), so vegetables should be what constitutes most of your diet.

 

[Chichikov]

Then what does the statement "eat mostly plants" mean?

what part of 'mostly' don't you understand?

Seriously though, read the article I linked.
And yeah, I do realize it does not quite apply to bodybuilders and advanced athletes.

 

[reilo]

what part of 'mostly' don't you understand?

Seriously though, read the article I linked.
And yeah, I do realize it does not quite apply to bodybuilders and advanced athletes.

Reading his article and not the reviews makes his stance more clearer and it's actually something I have no disagreements with. It's pretty straight-forward, but the more interesting points he makes [to me at least] is how much influence the food lobbies and how fucked up that system is.

 

[Captain Glanton]

Thanks, do you recommend jump squats with dumbells or no?

I use the barbell. Just be sure to clamp down on it as tight as you can, or you'll cut your neck up.

 

[Anton Sugar]

Heh yeah, I only started lifting a couple months ago, and I'm not exactly sure what I should do for my legs.

Anyways, this is what I'm doing on Mon/Wed for my arm and chest:

Bench Press
Incline Dumbbell Press
Barbell Curls
Dumbbell Rows
Dumbell Pullovers
Shoulder Press

I also do some machines when I feel like it, is it better to cut them out and do strictly free weights? Plus, what other exercises would you guys recommend I include?

That should be MORE than enough for what you're doing. What sort of set/rep scheme are you using?

A note on squats, as there seem to be a number of beginners interested in leg exercises: your goal is to have the joint of your hip hit parallel or lower than the joint of your knee. Like so (many different squats, all good depth):

Examples of BAD squats:

 

[MrToughPants]

]

Examples of BAD squats:

deserves a repost

[/IMG]

 

[Jirotrom]

and this is why I can't do them, My heels lift no matter what I do, been like this all my life:lol

 

[Mr.City]

deserves a repost

[/IMG]

Oh Jesus what the hell is this?

 

[lil smoke]

Yeah, you can count me in with the bad squat clique.

I just did a few air squats, and yes... with weights I just don't go that far down. I really need to get better at this.

 

[Anton Sugar]

deserves a repost

There are so many things wrong here, the least of which is his shitty depth.

 

[Anton Sugar]

and this is why I can't do them, My heels lift no matter what I do, been like this all my life:lol

There HAS to be a solution. Hamstrings/achilles too tight? Incorrect bar placement? Flexibility? Form?

 

[Anton Sugar]

Yeah, you can count me in with the bad squat clique.

I just did a few air squats, and yes... with weights I just don't go that far down. I really need to get better at this.

Practice! Stretch out! Lower the weight a good deal and start hitting the correct depth. It's worth it.

 

[Chichikov]

deserves a repost

ball_squat.jpg

LOL
Holy shit, and I thought I've seen every bad shit possible in a gym.
Tell me it's staged as an inside joke or something.

 

[Struct09]

deserves a repost

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v407/Xeno/ball.jpg[IMG][/QUOTE]

Damn, I would never attempt a squat like that, but you have to give the guy some credit. Even if you can't do a proper squat that way, that must take some crazy balance.

 

[Anton Sugar]

Damn, I would never attempt a squat like that, but you have to give the guy some credit. Even if you can't do a proper squat that way, that must take some crazy balance.

I bet you can find someone who can do a handstand and place a loaded barbell on their feet and do leg presses with it.

Doesn't mean it's going to do shit.

 

[GHG]

deserves a repost

[/IMG]

...

The fuck...

That could go so badly wrong.

 

[Struct09]

I bet you can find someone who can do a handstand and place a loaded barbell on their feet and do leg presses with it.

Doesn't mean it's going to do shit.

Doesn't have to do shit to be impressive

 

[MrToughPants]

Doesn't have to do shit to be impressive

The human flag pole presses now those are fucking insane... :lol

Strength Feat Compilation 2

Also has the Alexeev and Redding 500+lb clean & presses

 

[Jirotrom]

There HAS to be a solution. Hamstrings/achilles too tight? Incorrect bar placement? Flexibility? Form?

I dont think you understand, Im 24 and I have never ever been able to squat while keeping my heels locked to the ground... never, I don't mean with weights only, I mean straight weightless. Its all good, I pull tires and sleds and push my car through parking lots

 

[reilo]

Well I started doing squats recently, too. I think I am doing them right.

The one thing I make sure to do is to get low enough where my hip is parallel or lower than my knee.

If you guys are lifting your heels, and are not getting low enough, then it sounds like you are not placing your legs apart enough.

Do a test without any sort of weights or bar in front of a mirror:

Make sure your legs are correctly spaced from each other. If you are feeling a pinch or pressure right beneath where your torso and leg meets [meaning, upper joint of your leg], then your legs aren't spaced out far enough and your body won't let you get lower than that point because your placement is not correct.

Have your feet in a more diagonal position, where your toes point outwards:

\\ //

That should help you get low enough and give you proper support without your heel lifting.

At least, this is what I do and this is what I have observed from Rippetoe's videos and other videos on squatting.

 

[aznpxdd]

Yeah I did some squats today as well...but I just couldn't go all the way down where my hip and knee are parallel. I should lower the weights and get the form right.

I'll try some front squats on Thursday...if my legs aren't too sore from today.

 

[mr stroke]

[G]

Ok some of those I understand, but what is this guy doing wrong??(other than needing to go down a little bit lower)