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Official Islamic Thread

AmMortal

Banned
MeowMeow said:
This also doesnt explain HERMAPHRODITES.

Warrior you do know what they are right?

That is the key to understanding homosexuality, and gender blur (considering that hermaphrodites have a 70% chance of being homosexual from the gender they were raised as)

Im quoting Sheikh Jadul-Haq `Ali Jadul-Haq


Therefore, it is clear juristically that, given his/her yet undetermined gender, hermaphrodites cannot mix with either men or women until after medication, carried out by a Muslim and competent doctor, which will determine his/her sex. The prohibition of mixing with males or females aims at evading any corruption that may occur in that case."



I agree with him.
 

MeowMeow

Banned
Homosexuality is a subject that has been avoided by christians/jews/muslims...

I think i have a pretty good perspective on it from a religious perspective., so unless you can offer some solutions on how to solve this,....then i think its pretty much inherited.

The solutions like:
-Your not praying enough
-Your not reading the Quran
-Need to watch straight porn more often
-Stare at a playboy model for 3 hours

Are not valid solutions.

Therefore, it is clear juristically that, given his/her yet undetermined gender, hermaphrodites cannot mix with either men or women until after medication, carried out by a Muslim and competent doctor, which will determine his/her sex. The prohibition of mixing with males or females aims at evading any corruption that may occur in that case."



I agree with him.

This requires MEDICAL intervention, and a correction of a DEFECT. The reason why i am pointing this out is why is it that God creates DEFECTS in the first place? This is not exclusive to hermaphrodites, but people who are blind, deaf, mute, or any other physical and mental abnormalities. These events obviously occured in the past, so how did they deal with it then? Probably very brutally and harshly and in a inhumane way. Again if it displeases God, he would NOT allow it to exist, yet he does. Why would he create a child with defect just to damn it and condemn it?

I dont want to degrade this thread by continuing to talk about homosexuality (we can create another thread for that) but i did want to bring it up and put it in some context since the question was asked.
 

Stridone

Banned
Warrior300 said:
Dude im not judging them, im just saying that if they are proper muslims then they wouldn't do what G-d prohibited them.

i have nothing against gay people but saying active homosexuals are muslims is laughable, unless they change their ways.

Well, isn't it God's fault that they're homosexual, since he's omnipotent?
 

pewye

Banned
Linkhero1 said:
Pretty much what you said. I'm not going to judge anyone.

Back onto the topic of Other Planets, I read that there are creatures living on these planets, but I'm not sure if this is true or not, it also says that these creatures will come to the earth one day. I found that in a google search.

don't listen to that website.

I know what website you are talking about. http://www.speed-light.info/islam_life_other_planets.htm

and some their conclusions are sketchy
 

CHYME

Banned
MeowMeow said:
Homosexuality is a subject that has been avoided by christians/jews/muslims...

I think i have a pretty good perspective on it from a religious perspective., so unless you can offer some solutions on how to solve this,....then i think its pretty much inherited.

The solutions like:
-Your not praying enough
-Your not reading the Quran
-Need to watch straight porn more often
-Stare at a playboy model for 3 hours

Are not valid solutions.



This requires MEDICAL intervention, and a correction of a DEFECT. The reason why i am pointing this out is why is it that God creates DEFECTS in the first place? This is not exclusive to hermaphrodites, but people who are blind, deaf, mute, or any other physical and mental abnormalities. These events obviously occured in the past, so how did they deal with it then? Probably very brutally and harshly and in a inhumane way. Again if it displeases God, he would NOT allow it to exist, yet he does. Why would he create a child with defect just to damn it and condemn it?

I dont want to degrade this thread by continuing to talk about homosexuality (we can create another thread for that) but i did want to bring it up and put it in some context since the question was asked.


Homosexuality is indeed a very touchy subject. Since evidence thus far seems to suggest that homosexuality isn't due to genetics, but rather to the exposure of the fetus to certain hormones, as well as to environmental effects, how can one be doomed to hellfire for something beyond one's control? I don't know the answer, and I certainly don't advocate prejudice against any group, nor do I believe that it is the role of a Muslim (anyone, for that matter) to do so.
 
pewye said:
Actually the Quran says that some of those extraterrestrial creatures will invade Earth one day: There is a wormhole right here on Earth that connects Earth with another planet. One day the creatures on that planet will use this wormhole to invade Earth.
I hope that isn't true but that makes sense. Why fly for billions of miles when you can cross dimensions and just enter that way? If aliens have been here, I think they are from different dimensions, and they're not extraterrestrials, they're still aliens but extra dimensional creatures. But there's no evidence for any kind of aliens, even though they still scare me. :lol Post more aliens verses from the Quran please. :D
 

MeowMeow

Banned
I can further extrapolate on the nature and existence of evil...

Again, if evil is so displeasing to God, why would he allow satan respite time until the day of judgement? Why make a deal with satan? Also how is it possible for satan to tempt 6 billion people at the same time?

Remember, that God is allowing evil to exist for some purpose, that is still yet unkown, but my interpertation is kind of like the ying-yang thing. You cannot have the light without the darkness. its only in heaven where there is no evil, absolute peace and love and pleasure and bliss. Hellfire is NOT owned by satan, but it is Gods creation, and satan will suffer in it, the same way other humans with bad deads will suffer in it.

The purpose of hell and heaven exists because of accountibility of our actions, and this where beleivers in God need to get their shit together on whats important and non important instead of automatically condeming someone to go to hell.
Adolf Hitler vs some homo, who is going to hell?
A psycho dictator killing millions of people, or a homo who believes in god and tries doing good things.
This is one of the arguments i had with atrus in humiros thread, thats one of the reasons why i stated that God exists and that is because of our accountibility (indirect proof)
If you truly beleive that there is no God, that means adolf died getting away with killing 6 (im not sure of the exact number) million people, our puny and shitty justice system does nothing to account for the innocent killings of people.
 

lopaz

Banned
MeowMeow said:
I can further extrapolate on the nature and existence of evil...

Again, if evil is so displeasing to God, why would he allow satan respite time until the day of judgement? Why make a deal with satan? Also how is it possible for satan to tempt 6 billion people at the same time?

Remember, that God is allowing evil to exist for some purpose, that is still yet unkown, but my interpertation is kind of like the ying-yang thing. You cannot have the light without the darkness. its only in heaven where there is no evil, absolute peace and love and pleasure and bliss. Hellfire is NOT owned by satan, but it is Gods creation, and satan will suffer in it, the same way other humans with bad deads will suffer in it.

The purpose of hell and heaven exists because of accountibility of our actions, and this where beleivers in God need to get their shit together on whats important and non important instead of automatically condeming someone to go to hell.
Adolf Hitler vs some homo, who is going to hell?
A psycho dictator killing millions of people, or a homo who believes in god and tries doing good things.
This is one of the arguments i had with atrus in humiros thread, thats one of the reasons why i stated that God exists and that is because of our accountibility (indirect proof)
If you truly beleive that there is no God, that means adolf died getting away with killing 6 million people, our puny and shitty justice system does nothing to account for the innocent killings of people.

should =/= is
 

Masenkame

Member
Bit late for a response, but here you go.
Zapages said:
We need commentary now, because during the time of the revelation of the Holy Quran. It made perfect for the people of the time. So it was understood then.

As for arguments against Islam. None of the arguments work. I've known people were Muslims who became atheists and then became Muslims again. In the end everything can not be random as some atheists tend to believe. It doesn't make any logical sense at all. All things have a creator instead of just spontaneously occurring. Basically what I am coming at God/Allah or what other name that you can come up to describe that being has to cause that spontaneous event to occur. Therefore God exists.

The Holy Quran makes very much logical sense if you try to understand the essence of it.


*Sorry if this post offends anyone here*.
The book was made perfect for the people at the time huh? What about people of today? it doesn't apply to them? Since it does apply, why wasn't the book written more clearly by this magnificent creator? This super-intelligent being would surely have known that people in the future would have a problem understanding its words, so the creator would have to make it quite clear. This is not true, nor is it true of any book. All books have been written by men, not gods.

The arguments don't work against Islam? What are these arguments you so casually dismiss? I didn't even mention any specifics. How about the fact that Judaism, Christianity, and Islam borrow much of their beliefs from earlier religions and myths? Egyptian, Pagan, and ancient Semitic beliefs are all over the place. Islam comes at the end, taking most of Judaism and Christianity, and adding some new ideas while slightly changing older ideas. There are many arguments that apply to all three Abrahmaic faiths

People that you've known convert back to Islam after not having a religion didn't think their position very clearly. Perhaps they were lazy in their faith or didn't care, reverted back when they felt they had to. Maybe they needed emotional support and reverted back to Islam. An atheist who has carefully pondered his position and all the many other positions would rarely convert, if at all. Who goes from the beauty and wonder of this universe to wondering about Moses and a burning bush?(thanks Christopher Hitchens!)

An atheist or any other person who has studied the sciences will not that everything is random. It's not. Evolution by natural selection is not random, it's quite the opposite. The ways in which stars and galaxies form is not random. The laws of the universe are not random.

Your argument for the existence of a god is quite weak. It's futile anyways, as you cannot prove or disprove any type of a God.

The Holy Qur'an does make sense. It's a book written by seventh century men looking to control people. Why do you think there's political law and moral law in there? Why do you think that there's so much subjugation of women in the book? Why do you think it allows for violence and wars(and/or taxation), if another population is unwilling to convert?

It makes "sense", but not logical sense. I have to understand the essence of it? What is the essence of the Qur'an? The essence of Islam is total submission to the will of Allah. Islam does not mean peace. Whenever someone tells me that, I just realize they are brainwashed.
 

MeowMeow

Banned
The book was made perfect for the people at the time huh? What about people of today? it doesn't apply to them? Since it does apply, why wasn't the book written more clearly by this magnificent creator? This super-intelligent being would surely have known that people in the future would have a problem understanding its words, so the creator would have to make it quite clear. This is not true, nor is it true of any book. All books have been written by men, not gods.

Wrong. All the previous revelations BEFORE the Quran were written by God as well, except it was not really meant to be preserved and were delivered to a particular nation/tribe and group of people to suit their needs and want. Every revelation BEFORE the Quran verified the previous revelation and prophecised of a messanger after.
The discrepencies that exist between Judaism, Christianity and Islam is NOT because of God, it is because of Us and its tamperings, as well as giving authority to priests, rabbis, popes, monks who had no such authority. The translation of the events after jesus's and moses's departure also watered down and distorted the original message, that is why there are so many divisions among christianity and judaism.

Muslims refer to the quran as the only existinding miracle buecase it is written in a way that no human can duplicate, and that does indeed require reading and undestanding arabic.

.cda.......oh crap my lunesta is kicig in,.. i will reply more to ur post later on...

good nite.
 

Masenkame

Member
MeowMeow said:
Wrong. All the previous revelations BEFORE the Quran were written by God as well, except it was not really meant to be preserved and were delivered to a particular nation/tribe and group of people to suit their needs and want. Every revelation BEFORE the Quran verified the previous revelation and prophecised of a messanger after.
The discrepencies that exist between Judaism, Christianity and Islam is NOT because of God, it is because of Us and its tamperings, as well as giving authority to priests, rabbis, popes, monks who had no such authority. The translation of the events after jesus's and moses's departure also watered down and distorted the original message, that is why there are so many divisions among christianity and judaism.

Muslims refer to the quran as the only existinding miracle buecase it is written in a way that no human can duplicate, and that does indeed require reading and undestanding arabic.

.cda.......oh crap my lunesta is kicig in,.. i will reply more to ur post later on...

good nite.
Don't all these contradictions and changes imply that these books were written by men? How come God didn't get the book right the first time? You're telling me the creator of this vast universe decided to write a book specifically for people and tribes who inhabited a small patch of land in bronze-age Palestine, on a small planet circling a medium-sized star, in close approximation to the center of a galaxy which contains billions upon billions of stars, in a universe with billions of galaxies?

These previous revelations which were were written by God were not meant to preserved? If you got a revelation from the almighty creator, I'd think it would be quite important to retain the knowledge. Right?

The Qur'an is not that special. All these other holy books are not too special. Much of modern literature trumps these books, if not all. Well, there are some crappy books out there, but they don't claim intimate knowledge of the universe and demand you follow them or risk eternal punishment. Quite amazing that all these books were written at a time when humans had no knowledge of the sciences. The people in those times believed in anything that they could come up with. Magic, jinns(or djinns if you prefer), and other supernatural oddities were quite commonly believed by most of the people. Disease was thought of as punishment for sin for a long time. If you lived in those times, when someone told you this amazing book was written by the creator itself, you could quite easily believe them.

So I need to know Arabic to understand the Qur'an? Most Arabic people I know don't understand it all. They need tafsir just as much as a Pakistani dude like me. This whole idea proves that the book was written by Arabians who were quite proud of their language and customs. It would be highly illogical for a creator to write a book which only some of the people it was trying to save(from itself!) could even attempt to understand.

Have fun with the lunesta. I need some medicine like that too. Been an insomniac for way too long.
 

AmMortal

Banned
Masenkame said:
Don't all these contradictions and changes imply that these books were written by men? How come God didn't get the book right the first time? You're telling me the creator of this vast universe decided to write a book specifically for people and tribes who inhabited a small patch of land in bronze-age Palestine, on a small planet circling a medium-sized star, in close approximation to the center of a galaxy which contains billions upon billions of stars, in a universe with billions of galaxies?

These previous revelations which were were written by God were not meant to preserved? If you got a revelation from the almighty creator, I'd think it would be quite important to retain the knowledge. Right?

The Qur'an is not that special. All these other holy books are not too special. Much of modern literature trumps these books, if not all. Well, there are some crappy books out there, but they don't claim intimate knowledge of the universe and demand you follow them or risk eternal punishment. Quite amazing that all these books were written at a time when humans had no knowledge of the sciences. The people in those times believed in anything that they could come up with. Magic, jinns(or djinns if you prefer), and other supernatural oddities were quite commonly believed by most of the people. Disease was thought of as punishment for sin for a long time. If you lived in those times, when someone told you this amazing book was written by the creator itself, you could quite easily believe them.

So I need to know Arabic to understand the Qur'an? Most Arabic people I know don't understand it all. They need tafsir just as much as a Pakistani dude like me. This whole idea proves that the book was written by Arabians who were quite proud of their language and customs. It would be highly illogical for a creator to write a book which only some of the people it was trying to save(from itself!) could even attempt to understand.

Have fun with the lunesta. I need some medicine like that too. Been an insomniac for way too long.

Understand this, it was never a "book" neither Jesus nor Moses or Muhammad ever wrote books.

What has been the inspiration and motivation for what they did and how they did it was recorded on paper for us to use.The revelation was written down in front of Muhammad( saw), on anything his companions could find, be it bones ,skin, stones etc.

You are saying that the people back then were just gullible and believed in creatures not being human, but yet till this day some of us believe in aliens being on earth others don't, what if these are one and the same?

I don't think that either arabs or anyone else is above the rest, Islam shows us how the arabs( of mecca) were the worst of that time, but with the light of Allah a civilazation was built with honour with and by people from ALL backgrounds.

I do agree though that arabic people usually are some of, if not one of the worst racist people. But so are Pakistani's Honor killings are a tradition in Pakistan. And sometimes only because the girl marries a black man although he is muslim.

However, here you go again confusing Ignorant Arabs with Islam. The companions of the Prophet (saw) consisted of people of different backgrounds from african to european.

Need I tell you how islam freed slaves and saves the week and neglected. Now you are making the simple mistake again of blaming islam for what it was actually fighting.

The Qur'an's arabic consists of such old and unused Words, that could hardly be considered arabic. Did you know that a Jewish rabbi HAS to be able to read the arabic of the Qur'an before he can become a Scholar?!

That is because the language used is the same as the words G-d used with Moses. The Qur'an helped the Jews understand their scripture better.


G-d gave the people before us the responsibility to guard and preserve His Word. They failed because men are forgetful and some of them mischievious. The Qur'an is different in this regard, numerous times Allah has promised to to preserve it Himself. This is known throughout the world as being true and fact, because the oldest pieces found and the earliest oral both coincide with each other and are exactly the same word by word.

This is an actual fact. If I go to the highest jewish scholar and the highest christians, they will both say that it stayed the same and was the exact words Muhammad(saw) preached and practiced.

Only Islam is special in that regard, it amazes me that you didn't know that.

pewye said:
ummm, Warrior300. "Yawm" means "day" in arabic.

Also, the theory of evolution contradicts the belief that humans were created as they are right now.

So, muslims don't believe in it because:

1)humans are not animals
2)The story of Adam and Eve.

The theory of evolution applies to animals but not to humans.

Yeah, it means both days ( my language uses the same words) and periods.

Evolution does exist, but not to the extremes of atheists. You see, we all have different stages of forms in our lives. Sperm cell,feotus,embreyo etc.

Futureman said:
You are trying to fit a square peg (Islam) into a round hole (science). You contradicted yourself above. You say that the world was created in 6 yawm, which means "huge eras of time." And then you say that this correlates with the 6 epochs of the big bang. Guess what, those epochs were fractions of fractions of fractions of a second.

Everytime a new scientific discovery is made, people with religious convictions scurry to try and find some way that it fits in with their theology.

Also, how is that (51:47) quote confirmation of the Koran recognizing the expansion of the universe? That's so silly.

I translated it wrongly, its should that say yawm is a period. Just goes to show you I don't copy everything directly from the internet though. I believe brother pewye had tackled the expansion part.

BTW

Some of you might have noticed my different character changes from certian periods of time, rest assured that its not me.

I have a certain family member who keeps posting on my account (always manages to find out my pass).

So if I sound not so understanding or prejudice, please consider this fact.

P.S


Guled said:
FYI I'm also a muslim. Islam dose hate women. Directly or Indirectly Islam gives all the power to men and gives women the middle finger.


This guy is a joke.
 
I love how some people in this thread continue to use aggressive words and insults against each other over something that is supposed to be a discussion. Is that how you would normally talk in real life? Don't know what to say so you attack the person?

Seriously. This is why I laugh every time someone pulls out the "ignorance" card. Why do you people continuously try to separate Religion and Science? If any of you even bothered to read religious texts seriously you would come to realize that education and knowledge are highly respected traits in all of those texts. There are countless examples that show the use of logic and reason to diffuse situations and solve arguments without violence.It's so sad that people always try to separate the two exactly how are you using logic properly again? Are you guys really smarter than the people and events in those tects from long ago, if in this day and age you still act in such a manner?
Albert Einstein said:
Now, even though the realms of religion and science in themselves are clearly marked off from each other, nevertheless there exist between the two strong reciprocal relationships and dependencies. Though religion may be that which determines the goal, it has, nevertheless, learned from science, in the broadest sense, what means will contribute to the attainment of the goals it has set up. But science can only be created by those who are thoroughly imbued with the aspiration toward truth and understanding. This source of feeling, however, springs from the sphere of religion. To this there also belongs the faith in the possibility that the regulations valid for the world of existence are rational, that is, comprehensible to reason. I cannot conceive of a genuine scientist without that profound faith. The situation may be expressed by an image: science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.
It would not be difficult to come to an agreement as to what we understand by science. Science is the century-old endeavor to bring together by means of systematic thought the perceptible phenomena of this world into as thoroughgoing an association as possible. To put it boldly, it is the attempt at the posterior reconstruction of existence by the process of conceptualization. But when asking myself what religion is I cannot think of the answer so easily. And even after finding an answer which may satisfy me at this particular moment, I still remain convinced that I can never under any circumstances bring together, even to a slight extent, the thoughts of all those who have given this question serious consideration.

For example, a conflict arises when a religious community insists on the absolute truthfulness of all statements recorded in the Bible. This means an intervention on the part of religion into the sphere of science; this is where the struggle of the Church against the doctrines of Galileo and Darwin belongs. On the other hand, representatives of science have often made an attempt to arrive at fundamental judgments with respect to values and ends on the basis of scientific method, and in this way have set themselves in opposition to religion. These conflicts have all sprung from fatal errors.
Is the whole point of science not to understand that which we do not know of? Is the whole point of religion to bring those questions to mind? Look at this very thread, look at all the threads here on gaf about religion and science. Try as you might the two will always be linked together.
klausbert said:
:lol :lol :lol
Why don't you come to the atheist side? We haev caek and wimmin. Oh and saiyence

It is a very foolish thing to say that religion and science cannot go hand in hand. There are doctors, surgeons, engineers, teachers etc who believe in a sort of religion and there are those who do not. Would those who believe be foolish or worthy of being looked down upon or condemned? Would they suddenly become inferior to the others or their years of practice and knowledge a wash?

It sickens and saddens me when it reaches the point where people utter such comments about one another. What knowledge do you really have to call someone else a fool or idiot, whether they believe in a God or not? Neither of you can say for sure can you?

How different are they really that it has to come to the point where a Gaffer who I won't mention by name, stated in another thread that
"Religious people disgust me."
and that he'd never even accept a freaking blow job from a religious girl!? What is wrong with you people!?
AL
Main Entry:
ig·no·rance Listen to the pronunciation of ignorance
Pronunciation:
\ˈig-n(ə-)rən(t)s\
Function:
noun
Date:
13th century

: the state or fact of being ignorant : lack of knowledge, education, or awareness

Seriously. Grow up.
lopaz said:
You argue that God made people gay so it's not a sin, but isn't that true of all sins?
Hence why people can be forgiven?
lopaz said:
Well if they did use logic, they'd find that God doesn't exist ;)
Funny, since some of the most well educated people in our history have not been so quick to dismiss the possibility of something far greater. Wonder what qualifies what you think to be right as fact.

You're playing the same game. Using what little knowledge you know about the universe as fact.
Guled said:
Why does woman rights pale in comparison to mens?
Islam hates women

Why do people use Sharia law? and how can a law system as bad as this be called "Based on the Qur'an & hadith", for me this just paints a bad picture for the "western" world.
Any law system that is directly based on religion failes since you can't really change the laws, and as I learned in law class if a law system can't change is laws, it fails

Why cant woman marry more then one man like men?, as men can marry more then one woman, What happened to all the treating woman equally!

Again, Islam hates women

Muslims allways say the "western" world is sex crazed because their woman flaunt men with their sexiness, but if you think about it, whos the person shagging 4 home wives (sex objects)
Again, Islam hates women

You say "western" woman are whores/slutty, well I must say which you must agree with as with using your logic, muslim men with more then one wife are sex crazed manwhores who cant keep it in one woman.
Yes they are

Is it true that a Muslim woman can only marry a Muslim man, if so why?
Its true, Islam hates women.

Can woman have Goverment jobs, if not why?
There is nothing about the Quran about government jobs lol

Can non-Muslims have Goverment jobs, if not why?
Can't see why not

Can you publically demonstrate non-Muslim religious practices, if not why?

No idea, but I would guess you can

Which countries use Sharia Law?
All the bad ones lol
:lol go look up some history. Muslim women had more rights before European/Christian women did. Your post is nothing but inflammatory remarks, "Islam hates women"??? What kind of ludicrous statement is that?

At the end of the day. Whether a God exists or not, we are the only ones who can directly comfort and help each other, if after all these centuries we are still at the point where one cannot show love for their neighbor be it because of race, political views, religion or whatnot. Then we have already failed and will continue to do so.

Don't do good for God, do good because it's the right thing to do for your fellow man. Whether a God exists or not you will be doing what's right in the eyes of your fellow man and whatever God may be.
 
Masenkame said:
The book was made perfect for the people at the time huh? What about people of today?

What, you mean update it like Bible XP or Bible Vista?

But Vista fills my PC up with crap I don't need and makes it temperamental (and sometimes judgemental when I'm watching porn - stupid BSOD).
 
PhlegmMaster said:
I have to say that Hadji is my favorite Muslim on this forum. He seems to be the only one who refrains from using Al-taqiyya (lying to non-Muslims) to protect Islam's oh so precious reputation.

Which posters are you accusing of lying?
 

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
PhlegmMaster said:
I have to say that Hadji is my favorite Muslim on this forum. He seems to be the only one who refrains from using Al-taqiyya (lying to non-Muslims) to protect Islam's oh so precious reputation.
Okay, I've GOT to know about this. Sounds very NOT religious if theres a grain of truth to it. Sounds like the PR of a tobacco company, actually. What's the history behind this concept?
 

AmMortal

Banned
BocoDragon said:
Okay, I've GOT to know about this. Sounds very NOT religious if theres a grain of truth to it. Sounds like the PR of a tobacco company, actually. What's the history behind this concept?


It is something Shia's use, which is one of the reasons some Muslim ahluhl bayt Sunni consider them non-muslims
 
BocoDragon said:
Okay, I've GOT to know about this. Sounds very NOT religious if theres a grain of truth to it. Sounds like the PR of a tobacco company, actually. What's the history behind this concept?

Sound more like Fair Play policy of Scientology.
 
BocoDragon said:
Okay, I've GOT to know about this. Sounds very NOT religious if theres a grain of truth to it. Sounds like the PR of a tobacco company, actually. What's the history behind this concept?

I think it comes from Muslims living in dangerous times, with the ok to lie to save one's skin, as opposed to dumb Christian martyrs slaughtered in the Roman colliseum because they didn't know when to shut up.

I think it also emphasizes that one's deeds are more important than one's words. So if one's lies, for example, deceives Israel but makes Palestinians' lives easier than the lie was definitely worth it.
 

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Warrior300 said:
It is something Shia's use, which is one of the reasons some Muslim ahluhl bayt Sunni consider them non-muslims
Interesting. ll have to educate myself more on that aspect. I personally can't see how it would come into play very often... Even if someone did accept that doctrine, it seems unlikely that a true believer, eager to share his faith, would find much to censor.
 

Hadji

Banned
PhlegmMaster said:
I have to say that Hadji is my favorite Muslim on this forum. He seems to be the only one who refrains from using Al-taqiyya (lying to non-Muslims) to protect Islam's oh so precious reputation.

Taqiyya is forbidden, except in instances where your life is in danger. I don't believe that the other Muslims here are resorting to Taqiyyah in order to hide away their "evil" beliefs.

There isn't much to hide anyways since hadeeth books can be found everywhere and the Qur'an can even be ordered online for free.

Oh, and any problems with Muslim Gaffers and their factual errors about Islam is probably because they learned Islam from the internet. Sorry Muslim Gaffers. =p
 

AmMortal

Banned
BocoDragon said:
Interesting. ll have to educate myself more on that aspect. I personally can't see how it would come into play very often... Even if someone did accept that doctrine, it seems unlikely that a true believer, eager to share his faith, would find much to censor.


Well, I can give you examples, many iranians for instance, become "Christians" when they are refugees to make the citizenship process faster. but when they are at home, they are shia.

Off course there are many who are actually christians, and this doesn't negate that fact. It would be foolish to asume other wise.
 

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Instigator said:
I think it comes from Muslims living in dangerous times, with the ok to lie to save one's skin, as opposed to dumb Christian martyrs slaughtered in the Roman colliseum because they didn't know when to shut up.

I think it also emphasizes that one's deeds are more important than one's words. So if one's lies, for example, deceives Israel but makes Palestinians' lives easier than the lie was definitely worth it.
This religion is just chock full of things that would have been so practical in the time of the prophet, but cause all sorts of strange side-effects today (if misused?)

protection for those who follow religions of the book = permission to persecute non-abrahamic or atheists?

male guardianship of females (to lift their status) = male domination of females (to lower their status)?

non-idolatry of the central religious figure = death to those who depict him?

the origin of Islam being under persecution and necessitating self-defense = the willingness to put your foot down or go to war for anything related to Islam?

edit: Also, keeping one version of the Quran in one standard language to reduce translation errors (as in "the corruption of Abraham's religion over time") = worship of one language and the denial of the true Quran to non-Arabic speakers?


Warrior300 said:
Well, I can give you examples, many iranians for instance, become "Christians" when they are refugees to make the citizenship process faster. but when they are at home, they are shia.

Off course there are many who are actually christians, and this doesn't negate that fact. It would be foolish to asume other wise.
I have an iranian friend here in Canada. I should ask him what he declared:lol
 
BocoDragon said:
Interesting. ll have to educate myself more on that aspect. I personally can't see how it would come into play very often... Even if someone did accept that doctrine, it seems unlikely that a true believer, eager to share his faith, would find much to censor.

In the modern world, it is not so much censorship, but the 'famed' double speak many right-wingers in the West accuse Muslims of. You know, saying/supporting/denouncing something in public, but doing the opposite behind close doors.
 

AmMortal

Banned
BocoDragon said:
This religion is just chock full of things that would have been so practical in the time of the prophet, but cause all sorts of strange side-effects today (if misused?)

protection for those who follow religions of the book = permission to persecute non-abrahamic or atheists?

male guardianship of females to lift their status = male domination of females to lowertheir status?

non-idolatry of the central religious figure = death to those who depict him?

the origin of Islam being under persecution and necessitating self-defense = the willingness to put your foot down or go to war for anything related to Islam?



I have an iranian friend here in Canada. I should ask him what he declared:lol

lol

You do know I meant that there are actaul christian people.
 

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Warrior300 said:
lol

You do know I meant that there are actaul christian people.
Yeah well naturally Iran protects them as people of the book, which is a good thing. (As an atheist I wouldn't be granted citizen's rights though, or the "right to life" :lol I would just pretend to be Muslim like anyone else.)
 

AmMortal

Banned
BocoDragon said:
Yeah well naturally Iran protects them as people of the book, which is a good thing. (As an atheist I wouldn't be granted citizen's rights though, or the "right to life" :lol I would just pretend to be Muslim like anyone else.)
:lol
LOLZ
 

pewye

Banned
HotByCold said:
I'm sorry but I can't keep it up anymore.
Pewye: You're a fucking lunatic. Find some help, seriously.

what did I do?? o_O

I haven't said anything that would label me as a lunatic.
 

CHYME

Banned
Hadji said:
Taqiyya is forbidden, except in instances where your life is in danger.

So Shia and Sunni agree on this issue.


Warrior300 said:
It is something Shia's use, which is one of the reasons some Muslim ahluhl bayt Sunni consider them non-muslims

wat
 

DSWii60

Member
Warrior300 said:
It is something Shia's use, which is one of the reasons some Muslim ahluhl bayt Sunni consider them non-muslims

How about you actually find out why Shias used to practice Taqiyya.


Taqiyya was practiced by Shias in certain times in history when people used to kill Shias just because they were Shias and had different beliefs. Shia scholars allowed taqiyya only when your life was under threat. Its similar to how if you were a Jew in 1939 Germany, you would pretend not be a Jew to save your life.
 

CHYME

Banned
DSWii60 said:
How about you actually find out why Shias used to practice Taqiyya.


Taqiyya was practiced by Shias in certain times in history when people used to kill Shias just because they were Shias and had different beliefs. Shia scholars allowed taqiyya only when your life was under threat. Its similar to how if you were a Jew in 1939 Germany, you would pretend not be a Jew to save your life.

On point.

I'm still trying to figure out what this sunni ahlul bayt stuff is all about.
 

Hadji

Banned
DSWii60 said:
How about you actually find out why Shias used to practice Taqiyya.


Taqiyya was practiced by Shias in certain times in history when people used to kill Shias just because they were Shias and had different beliefs. Shia scholars allowed taqiyya only when your life was under threat. Its similar to how if you were a Jew in 1939 Germany, you would pretend not be a Jew to save your life.

Yes, this is not a problem, for in these instances, they were only doing it in self defense.

However:

Zararah narrates that I asked a certain question to Imam Baqar (R). He gave me its answer. Another person then asked the same question and the Imam gave him a different answer. Later a third person asked the same question, but the Imam's answer this time was different from the previous two answers. I then asked him: "O, the son of the Messenger (S)! The two persons who just came here to ask you questions were from Iraq and were Shias, yet you gave them contradictory answers". The Imam then answered: "O Zararah! This is good for me as well as for you and this will help us survive and prosper". (Usool Al Kafi, p.37)

This is the type of taqiyyah that Sunnis disapprove of.
 

Linkhero1

Member
I'd like to learn more about Judgement day. I've been searching but most of the sites I go to don't really talk that much about it. What are the major signs? The minor signs? You could add anything else you think is good to know.
 

CHYME

Banned
Hadji said:
Yes, this is not a problem, for in these instances, they were only doing it in self defense.

However:

Zararah narrates that I asked a certain question to Imam Baqar (R). He gave me its answer. Another person then asked the same question and the Imam gave him a different answer. Later a third person asked the same question, but the Imam's answer this time was different from the previous two answers. I then asked him: "O, the son of the Messenger (S)! The two persons who just came here to ask you questions were from Iraq and were Shias, yet you gave them contradictory answers". The Imam then answered: "O Zararah! This is good for me as well as for you and this will help us survive and prosper". (Usool Al Kafi, p.37)

This is the type of taqiyyah that Sunnis disapprove of.

.
 

AmMortal

Banned
Linkhero1 said:
I'd like to learn more about Judgement day. I've been searching but most of the sites I go to don't really talk that much about it. What are the major signs? The minor signs? You could add anything else you think is good to know.


A few minor signs:

The Minor Signs:
# The disappearance of knowledge (of Islam) and the appearance of ignorance (Bukhari, Muslim, Ibn Majah, & Ahmad)
# Books/writing will be widespread and (religious) knowledge will be low (Ahmad)
# Adultery and fornication will be prevalent (The Prophet, peace be upon him, said that this has never happened without new diseases befalling the people, which their ancestors had not known.) (Bukhari, Muslim, Ibn Majah, & Al-Haythami)
# When fornication becomes widespread among your leaders (The Prophet, peace be upon him, said that this will happen when the people stop forbidding evil) (Ibn Majah)
# Adultery and fornication will be performed in the open
# The consumption of intoxicants will be widespread (Bukhari & Muslim)
# Killing, killing, killing ( genocide) (Bukhari, Muslim, Ibn Majah, & Ahmad)
# The nations of the earth will gather against the Muslims like hungry people going to sit down to a table full of food. This will occur when the Muslims are large in number, but "like the foam of the sea".
# People will beat others with whips like the tails of oxen (Muslim) ?The Slave Trade
# The children will be filled with rage (at-Tabarani, al-Hakim)
# Children will be foul (at-Tabarani, al-Hakim)
# Rain will be acidic or burning (at-Tabarani, al-Hakim)
# Children of fornication will become widespread or prevalent (at-Tabarani, al-Hakim)
# Gains will be shared out only among the rich, with no benefit to the poor (at-Tirmidhi)
# Miserliness will be thrown into the hearts of people (Bukhari)
# Episodes of sudden death will become widespread (Ahmad)
# There will be people who will be brethren in public but enemies in secret (He was asked how that would come about and replied, "Because they will have ulterior motives in their mutual dealings and at the same time will fear one another.") (at-Tirmidhi)
# When voices are raised in the mosques (at-Tirmidhi)
# People will walk in the marketplace with their thighs exposed
# Great distances will be traversed in short spans of time
# The people of Iraq will recieve no food and no money due to oppression by the Romans (Europeans) (Muslim)
# The leader of a people will be the worst of them (at-Tirmidhi)
# Leaders of people will be oppressors (Al-Haythami)
# People will treat a man with respect out of fear for some evil he might do (at-Tirmidhi)
# Men will begin to wear silk (at-Tirmidhi)
# Female singers and musical instruments will become popular (at-Tirmidhi)
# When singers become common (Al-Haythami) (american Idol ? lol)
# People will dance late into the night
# When the last ones of the Ummah begin to curse the first ones (at-Tirmidhi)
# People will claim to follow the Qur'an but will reject hadith & sunnah (Abu Dawood)
# People will believe in the stars (Al-Haythami) ( horoscopes)
# People will reject al-Qadr (the Divine Decree of Destiny) (Al-Haythami)
# Time will pass rapidly (Bukhari, Muslim, & Ahmad)
# Good deeds will decrease (Bukhari)
# People will be carrying on with their trade, but their will only be a few trustworthy persons
# A man will pass by a grave and wish that he was in their place (Bukhari)
# Earthquakes will increase (Bukhari & Muslim)
# There will be attempts to make the deserts green
# The appearance of false messengers (30 dajjals) (Bukhari)
# Women will be naked in spite of being dressed, these women will be led astray & will lead others astray (Muslim)
# The conquest of Constantinople by the Muslims (Ahmad)
# When people begin to compete with others in the construction of taller buildings (Bukhari)
# There will be a special greeting for the people of distinction (Ahmad)
# The Euphrates will disclose a treasure (The Prophet, peace be upon him, said that whoever is present should not take anything from it) (Bukhari & Muslim)
# Two large groups, adhering to the same religious teaching will fight each other with large numbers of casualties (Bukhari & Muslim)
# Wild animals will be able to talk to humans (Ahmad)
# A man will leave his home and his thigh or hip will tell him what is happening back at his home (Ahmad) ( phones ?/PDA's?)
# Years of deceit in which the truthful person will not be believed and the liar will be believed (Ahmad)
# Bearing false witness will become widespread (Al-Haythami & Ahmad)
# When men lie with men and women lie with women (Al-Haythami)
# Trade will become so widespread that a woman will be forced to help her husband in business (Ahmad)
# Arrogance will increase in the earth (at-Tabarani, al-Hakim)
# Family ties will be cut (Ahmad)
# There will be many women of child-bearing age who will no longer give birth. ( abortion? "pill"?
# There will be an abundance of food, much of which has no blessing in it.
 

AmMortal

Banned
Hadji said:
There is an Arabic saying that goes like "Al Sukoot Alamat Al Ridha."

Translation:

Silence is a sign of your satisfaction/agreement.

I like how ridha comes from pleased and satistfied. Very poetic.
 

Linkhero1

Member
I think that these are the major signs, some of which you already posted Warrior

Past

1. Splitting of the Moon.

2. Death of the Prophet Muhammad, may Allah bless him and grant him peace.

3. A form of death which will kill thousands of Muslims. (Understood to refer to the plague of Amwas during the
caliphate of ‘Umar ibn al-Khattab.)

4. A major fighting in Madinah (understood to refer to the battle of al-Harrah during the caliphate of Yazid, 63 AH).

5. The Muslim conquest of Jerusalem.

6. The Muslim conquest of Constantinople.

7. Two large groups of Muslims will fight in war.

8. A war between the Muslims and a reddish people with small eyes, wearing sandals made of hair (understood to refer to
the Mongol Tatar invasion of the Islamic lands.)

9. A peace agreement between the Muslims and non-Muslims from the yellow race (Chinese, Mongols, etc.)

10. Thirty impostors (dajjal) will appear, each thinking he is a prophet.

Present?

11. Naked, destitute, barefoot shepherds will compete in building tall buildings.

12. The slave-woman will give birth to her master or mistress.

13. A trial (fitnah) which will enter every Arab household.

14. Knowledge will be taken away (by the death of people of knowledge), and ignorance will prevail.

15. Wine (intoxicants, alcohol) will be drunk in great quantities.

16. Illegal sexual intercourse will become widespread.

17. Earthquakes will increase.

18. Time will pass more quickly.

19. Tribulations (fitan) will prevail.

20. Bloodshed will increase.

21. A man will pass by the grave of another and wish he was in the latter’s place.

22. Trustworthiness will be lost, i.e. when authority is given to those who do not deserve it.

23. People will gather for prayer, but will be unable to find an imam to lead them.

Future

24. The number of men will decrease, whilst the number of women will increase, until for every man there are 50 women.

25. The Euphrates will reveal a treasure of gold, and many will die fighting over it, each one hoping to be the one who gains
the treasure.

26. The Romans (Europeans) will come to a place called A’maq or Wabiq, and an army of the best people will go forth from Madinah to face them.

27. The Muslim conquest of Rome.

28. The Mahdi (guided one) will appear, and be the Imam of the Muslims.

29. Jesus Christ will descend in Damascus, and pray behind the Mahdi.

30. Jesus will break the cross and kill the swine, i.e. destroy the false christianity.

31. The Antichrist (al-masih al-dajjal, the false christ) will appear, with all his tools of deception, and be an immense trial. He will be followed by 70,000 Jews from Isfahan (present-day Iran).

32. The appearance of Ya’juj and Ma’juj (Gog and Magog), and the associated tribulations.

33. The emergence of the Beast from the Earth, carrying the Staff of Moses and the Seal of Solomon, who will speak to the people, telling them they did not believe with certainty in the Divine Signs.

34. A major war between the Muslims (including Jews and Christians who truly believe in Jesus after his return) led by the Imam Mahdi, and the Jews plus other non-Muslims led by the Antichrist.

35. Jesus will kill the Antichrist at the gate of Ludd (Lod in present-day Israel, site of an airport and a major Israeli military base).

36. A time of great peace and serenity during and after the remaining lifetime of Jesus.

37. Wealth will come so abundant that it will become difficult to find someone to accept charity.

38. Arabia will become a land of gardens and rivers.

39. Society will then decay.

40. The buttocks of the women of the tribe of Daws will again sway in circumambulation (tawaf) around the idol Dhul-Khulsah.

41. A great fire in the Hijaz, seen by the inhabitants of Busra.

42. Three major armies will sink into the earth: one in the east, one in the west, one in Arabia.

43. An Abyssinian leader with thin shins will destroy the Ka’bah.

44. The huge cloud of smoke.

45. The sun will rise from the west (its place of setting).

46. A gentle wind which will take the souls of the believers.

47. There is no-one left on the earth saying, "Allah, Allah" or "There is no god except Allah."

48. Eventually the Day of Judgment is established upon the worst of the people, who copulate like donkeys in public.

49. The blowing in the Trumpet by the Angel Israfil, upon which everyone will faint except as Allah wills.

50. The second blowing in the Trumpet, upon which everyone will be resurrected.
 

CHYME

Banned
Hadji said:
There is an Arabic saying that goes like "Al Sukoot Alamat Al Ridha."

Translation:

Silence is a sign of your satisfaction/agreement.

Can you refer me to the book and chapter? Thx.
 
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