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[Armitage]

Okay now this is just getting sad.



sigh

You just said that you knew something would happen before it did! YOU SAID IT! It's right there! I don't care if the prophet or big bird tells you.

 

[Atrus]

Okay now this is just getting sad.
sigh

He's asking of future foretold events that haven't been revealed yet. You know, sort of how Muslims in 1000AD apparently had a prophecy about skyscrapers and didn't know it.

 

[Quixzlizx]

There's more proof that there's a God than proof there isn't.

We know famous buildings like the Statue of Liberty were crafted by people.

Now, animals and living beings, or anything else crafted on this planet are far more complex than anything a human could come up with. A fly is made up many delicate structures to the point where every single thing works. A fly has its own place in the world, and its just a fly. No human could make a fly. There has to be a creator for this thing. I refuse to believe it just happened because it happened.

So you're telling me that the first fly that appeared in this world, just appeared upon chance? Or grass and trees? And water? And everything that works in this world happened upon chance? Everything in this world and in this galaxy is in perfect synchronization. Plants survive on water and sun, rain comes to replenish the plants with nutrients, food, and energy so they can grow. Herbivore animals eat the plants, carnivore and omnivore animals eat the herbivores. Seriously, every single cycle in life is so perfect that something or someone had to had to craft it far beyond human knowledge, and it was created so perfectly, so delicately, that it couldn't have happened upon chance.

People swing wildly, asking for the proof of existence of a God or gods, but the answer is right in front of their face.

So basically, your argument is "it can't be like that because I refuse to believe it." I was making a logical statement, not not appealing to your sense of propriety. Your arguments will always be completely incomprehensible to people like me, because there is no methodology or rationality behind the statement "because I said so."

 

[TheHeretic]

I thought this thread was about Islam, not whether or not God exists.

Online Atheist "badasses" are so fucking annoying.

You went on a rant about how you thought you had discovered the majestic proof that God exists, and now you are bitter because people pointed out how ridiculously awful your argument was? Online Atheists may be annoying, but hypocritical bubble heads are even worse.

 

[castle007]

I thought this thread was about Islam, not whether or not God exists.

Online Atheist "badasses" are so fucking annoying.

tell me about it :lol :lol

 

[EviLore]

Himu: you're presenting "proof." It's one thing to accept your faith as a personal decision, but you don't have a free pass to exempt yourself from examination and rebuttal when you take the route you did with your argument.

Cool off, and let's keep the thread civil.

 

[castle007]

banned, really??

he does have a point though.

It happens in almost every thread. It is like they have an agenda :lol

you don't see us doing that

 

[AmMortal]

You just said that you knew something would happen before it did! YOU SAID IT! It's right there! I don't care if the prophet or big bird tells you.

Ah crap, I'm so sorry man. It's late here, and I can't think properly due to lack of sleep

You should note these are somewhat complicated, interpretation depends on careful analysis, all of these things, are phenomena that aren't beyond the realm of possibility, so we should be careful not to confuse or attribute a certain occurance, with what it actually means. Most scholars agree that most of the minor sign of Judgment day have already occured. In fact, it's hard to find one that didn't occur yet off the top of my head.


For instance, when the Byzantinian empire was fighting the Persians. The Romans suffered a defeat that was thought to be irreversible, no one on earth thought that they would survive.

Then this happened:

Qur'an:
030.002 The Roman Empire has been defeated-

003.In a land close by; but they, (even) after (this) defeat of theirs, will soon be victorious-

004.Within a few ( the arabic word is 3-9) years. With Allah is the Decision, in the past and in the Future...

7 years time The Byzantinian Empire, struck back and won a a winning that was the envy of their enemies.

You can see what I mean, the calculation is 3-9 years, you're not given the exact number of 7, because this would encourage some to try and claim knowledge of the unseen. And Only God knows how and when everything will happen.

 

[Quixzlizx]

banned, really??

he does have a point though.

It happens in almost every thread. It is like they have an agenda :lol

you don't see us doing that

I was responding to someone who had claimed that nobody has ever proved that God doesn't exist by stating that it is impossible to prove a negative, logically speaking. It wasn't an anti-God statement, it was an anti-poor logic statement. I wasn't expecting a meltdown.

 

[Ydahs]

Wow, Himuro banned?

Let's set some guidelines here. This thread wasn't created to discuss the existence of God. It was created to educate people on Islam and hopefully break the misconceptions. Enough of this "God doesn't exist" discussion, becuase the atheists aren't going to convince us otherwise and we're not going to change their minds.

 

[Ela Hadrun]

It's like in the movie Pi, you know. It's not the numbers it's what's in between them. It's how they relate to each other.

I could pour one out for Himu but I heard through the grapevine it's only one week. Also probably shouldn't be talking about beer in the Islam thread. Ramadan even. Bad Ela.

 

[ice cream]

Wow shit I'm really scared now. All these signs of judgement day are now?! Fuck that means we're really close, doesn't it also say that only the worst people will be left on the world at judgement day? And also a war with muslims vs the world?
Man I am actually freaking out, but why is going clubbing bad? And why is music and instruments bad? I know theres a lot of debate over this music shizzle but I don't exactley see what so bad about it...

 

[castle007]

doesn't it also say that only the worst people will be left on the world at judgement day?

yeah, all the believers will die when a cool breeze comes and takes their souls, leaving all the bad people. These people will kill, rape, steal, fornicate in the streets.

And also a war with muslims vs the world?

Nations will try to destroy the Islamic community. Then the Mahdi (the Guided one) will come and lead the Islamic armies and later on Jesus will come and show people the way. Many christians and Jews will convert to Islam. Jesus then will kill the Antichrist. He then will rule for 40 years, get married, and finally will die.

but why is going clubbing bad? And why is music and instruments bad? I know theres a lot of debate over this music shizzle but I don't exactley see what so bad about it...

Clubbing and listening to music are both not encouraged because of the dangers surrounding them (getting drunk, drifting away from praying and God, one night stands and its consequences, etc)

 

[Ela Hadrun]

Jesus will come and show people the way. Many christians and Jews will convert to Islam. Jesus then will kill the Antichrist. He then will rule for 40 years, get married, and finally will die.

Aww, Jesus *finally* gets to settle down and have a nice family life.

 

[Instigator]

I didn't know Muhammad's very existence was in doubt.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,579052,00.html

Did Muhammad Ever Really Live?

A number of Islamic associations have put a quick end to their collaboration with a professor -- and trainer of people who are supposed to teach Islam in German high schools -- who has expressed his doubt that Muhammad ever lived. Islam scholar Michael Marx spoke with SPIEGEL ONLINE about what lies behind the debate and the historical person of the Prophet.

 

[AmMortal]

I didn't know Muhammad's very existence was in doubt.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,579052,00.html

Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) is the only religious figure that has been taken as a historical fact, many of the great historians commented and emphasized on his sincerity.

Letter written from Prophet Muhammad to Abyssinian King Negus.

to Khushroo, the King of Persia

to Emperor Heraclius Caesar of Rome

And finally his tomb

All are valid historical evidence of his existence.

Instigator, next time check your sources.

 

[Instigator]

Instigator, next time check your sources.

Did you even read the interview? Probably not because it was with a scholar who actually refuted the claims the prophet never existed. But I was genuinely surprised it was even an issue.

 

[Azih]

Did you even read the interview? Probably not because it was with a scholar who actually refuted the claims the prophet never existed. But I was genuinely surprised it was even an issue.

Everything is up for debate and so is a issue.

I'm a bit confused though AmMortal I thought the Prophet was illiterate, how was he writing letters?

Also you're really doing what these guys are doing:
http://www.nostradamus101.com/
You can interpret vague signs any way you want to fit events.

 

[slider]

I'm a bit confused though AmMortal I thought the Prophet was illiterate, how was he writing letters?

Elementary my dear Watson. Looking at those two letters the script is different so I'd imagine he dictated. That's what makes the most sense to me. I don't know much Arabic and I can barely read the script - perhaps someone more learned could take a stab at the letters?

But, yeah, people need to be precise. Otherwise confusion reigns.

 

[AmMortal]

Everything is up for debate and so is a issue.

I'm a bit confused though AmMortal I thought the Prophet was illiterate, how was he writing letters?

Also you're really doing what these guys are doing:
http://www.nostradamus101.com/
You can interpret vague signs any way you want to fit events.

Our prophet told his companions to write them, so essentially his words.


Belief in the signs of the day of judgement is fundamental, these things are subject to research. Many scholars agree that most, if not all, of the minor signs have already come to pass. Don't get me wrong, were not crazy people that that think that the world is gonna end tommorow, but we follow a certain "criteria", as you would have it. We do not know when the hour will be established, but we try our best to understand the prophecies that manifest themselves prior to it, and take them as warnings of the approach of the hour.

 

[AmMortal]

Also you're really doing what these guys are doing:
http://www.nostradamus101.com/
You can interpret vague signs any way you want to fit events.

Belief in the signs of the day of judgement is fundamental, these things are subject to research. Many scholars agree that most, if not all, of the minor signs have already come to pass. Don't get me wrong, were not crazy people that that think that the world is gonna end tommorow, but we follow a certain "criteria", as you would have it. We do not know when the hour will be established, but we try our best to understand the prophecies that manifest themselves prior to it, and take them as warnings of the approach of the hour.


For instance, " The Hour will not be established, until the sun rises from the west".

He said " Two nights will succeed each other, and the people will wake up to see that the night is not over yet, they will be terrified, they will scared."

Science suggest a hypothesis, that the earth was once rotating of a speed much faster then it is today ( 4 hours to rotate around it's own axis), and that by time, the earth continues to rotate slower and slower( today that's about 23.56.4 hours ) . Until one day, where it will stand still,( two nights and two days will succeed eachother) because of its mass. Just before it starts rotate the opposite way. The earth will act like a spring, when you can't wind it in a certain direction anymore, so it will rotate the other way.

The Prophet said " Two nights will succeed each other, and the people will wake up to see that the night is not over yet, they will be terrified, they will scared."

Leading to mankind, witnessing the sun rise from the west instead of the east.


However, this does not mean that we hold a hypothesis, as the ultimate truth. Their might be another way. Which is why I said these things are very open to debate and need extensive research.

I highly recommend watching this video ( for anyone interested in faith, whether muslim or atheist etc.

Elementary my dear Watson. Looking at those two letters the script is different so I'd imagine he dictated. That's what makes the most sense to me. I don't know much Arabic and I can barely read the script - perhaps someone more learned could take a stab at the letters?

But, yeah, people need to be precise. Otherwise confusion reigns.

I'm sorry guys, I really am, if replies seem out of place, it's because I'm tired

 

[castle007]

He didn't write those letters. But he stamped them with his seal

 

[AmMortal]

Oh, by the way,Muslims invented the guitar!
Which is why it's so prevalent in spanish culture.
/OT

 

[castle007]

Oh, by the way,Muslims invented the guitar!
Which is why it's so prevalent in spanish culture.
/OT

that was random :lol

 

[AmMortal]

that was random :lol

Thanks :lol

 

[Ydahs]

Oh, by the way,Muslims invented the guitar!
Which is why it's so prevalent in spanish culture.
/OT

This reminds me of something. Are musical instruments really forbidden in Islam? I've always wanted a guitar but I've been told they're not allowed... Same thing with music.

Also, my brother told me that if one doesn't go to Friday prayers three weeks in a row, they are considered a Kuffar. The hell? That doesn't sound right. Never heard that one before and frankly I find it hard to believe...

 

[castle007]

This reminds me of something. Are musical instruments really forbidden in Islam? I've always wanted a guitar but I've been told they're not allowed... Same thing with music.

Also, my brother told me that if one doesn't go to Friday prayers three weeks in a row, they are considered a Kuffar. The hell? That doesn't sound right. Never heard that one before and frankly I find it hard to believe...

I have never heard about that
and about the musical instruments, I think that as long as they don't get you to forget your prayers, etc.. then you should be fine. But they are still prohibited (with the exception of daff)

 

[AmMortal]

This reminds me of something. Are musical instruments really forbidden in Islam? I've always wanted a guitar but I've been told they're not allowed... Same thing with music.

Also, my brother told me that if one doesn't go to Friday prayers three weeks in a row, they are considered a Kuffar. The hell? That doesn't sound right. Never heard that one before and frankly I find it hard to believe...

Wait...

yeah, got it

Not in the context of you being non-muslim and doomed to damnation . But in the way that I too would be "kuffar", if I neglected my prayers. A mild " reform yourself" way.

About the instruments part. When the Islamic Empire was under attack from outsiders, people felt the need to enclose themselves. ( And this is when everything started to go wrong IMO).They banned anything and everything, that may have related to the cultures of the outside. Science,art, everything. A sort of Al-qaeda took over.

Some scholars suggest that. Hadiths relating to musical instruments not being allowed, are all of weak narration.Neither is there a single verse in the Qur'an about it being haram.

Now, Music can definitely be prohibited, when the context of the song in question is about things unIslamic, fornicating, drinking, violence etc.


There are more then enough scholars that disagree on the matter. So this is a very complex subject. Unless we look into what happened those years, in a factual historical context, we will never know the truth.

 

[Ydahs]

Wait...

yeah, got it

Not in the context of you being non-muslim and doomed to damnation . But in the way that I too would be "kuffar", if I neglected my prayers. A mild " reform yourself" way.

About the instruments part. When the Islamic Empire was under attack from outsiders, people felt the need to enclose themselves. ( And this is when everything started to go wrong IMO).They banned anything and everything, that may have related to the cultures of the outside. Science,art, everything. A sort of Al-qaeda took over.

Some scholars suggest that. Hadiths relating to musical instruments not being allowed, are all of weak narration.Neither is there a single verse in the Qur'an about it being haram.

Now, Music can definitely be prohibited, when the context of the song in question is about things unIslamic, fornicating, drinking, violence etc.


There are more then enough scholars that disagree on the matter. So this is a very complex subject. Unless we look into what happened those years, in a factual historical context, we will never know the truth.

Thanks for clearing the issue of musical instruments. It's been on my mind for a couple of years now, and I just didn't know what to make of it and didn't try to seek an answer. I'll do a little research of my own later on.

Guess this thread is good for educating both non-Muslims and Muslims

 

[Vito]

Oh, by the way,Muslims invented the guitar!
Which is why it's so prevalent in spanish culture.
/OT

Care to elaborate on that or are you just speaking out of your ass as always?

 

[N-Bomb]

Care to elaborate on that or are you just speaking out of your ass as always?

From wikipedia:

"The oldest known iconographic representation of an instrument displaying all the essential features of a guitar being played is a 3,300 year old stone carving of a Hittite bard."

and

"The modern guitar is descended from the Roman cithara brought by the Romans to Hispania around 40 AD, and further adapted and developed with the arrival of the four-string oud, brought by the Moors after their conquest of the Iberian peninsula in the 8th century."

 

[AmMortal]

From wikipedia:

"The oldest known iconographic representation of an instrument displaying all the essential features of a guitar being played is a 3,300 year old stone carving of a Hittite bard."

and

"The modern guitar is descended from the Roman cithara brought by the Romans to Hispania around 40 AD, and further adapted and developed with the arrival of the four-string oud, brought by the Moors after their conquest of the Iberian peninsula in the 8th century."

Compared to what the moors( Muslims) designed, the previous works were less compatible. You can take my post as Muslims invented " The Modern Guitar".

But yeah, essentially that's what it means.

 

[FightyF]

I've read books on the topic of music by different scholars, to say "we'll never know the truth" is an odd way to put it. It isn't very explicit what is exactly haram and what isn't, but from what I've gathered is that all scholars agree that it can serve as a distraction from the remembrance of God.

And that's exactly what makes a good song, the fact that it can change your mood, take over your emotions, make you forget about what you were previously thinking about.

Oh and as pointed out Muslims didn't invent the guitar...don't know where you got that from.

From what I know if you do miss 3 Jumaa prayers you should say the Kalima to re-declare your faith.

There's a difference between educated, stimulated debate, and the crappy thread shitting agnostics and atheists do in every single thread, on every single message board ever; even when the discussion is not even related to pondering the existence of God.

Before GAF I actually had a lot of respect for Athiests. Growing up in small towns in Western Alberta, being an atheist is not a popular thing, but it demonstrated some sort of intellectual independence.

But on GAF that whole idea of "rational and logical Atheist" went down the shitter :lol

It seems that a lot of them are willfully ignorant.

 

[N-Bomb]

Compared to what the moors( Muslims) designed, the previous works were less compatible. You can take my post as Muslims invented " The Modern Guitar".

But yeah, essentially that's what it means.

At best, they modified. They didn't invent the guitar any more than the Japanese invented the automobile. And if you want to take the route I think you're going to take, more modifications occurred even after moors or whoever got their hands on it.

 

[CHYME]

I've read books on the topic of music by different scholars, to say "we'll never know the truth" is an odd way to put it. It isn't very explicit what is exactly haram and what isn't, but from what I've gathered is that all scholars agree that it can serve as a distraction from the remembrance of God.

You realize that just about every little thing in this world can serve as a distraction from God? The key is moderation.

 

[AmMortal]

I've read books on the topic of music by different scholars, to say "we'll never know the truth" is an odd way to put it. It isn't very explicit what is exactly haram and what isn't, but from what I've gathered is that all scholars agree that it can serve as a distraction from the remembrance of God.

And that's exactly what makes a good song, the fact that it can change your mood, take over your emotions, make you forget about what you were previously thinking about.

Oh and as pointed out Muslims didn't invent the guitar...don't know where you got that from.

From what I know if you do miss 3 Jumaa prayers you should say the Kalima to re-declare your faith.




Before GAF I actually had a lot of respect for Athiests. Growing up in small towns in Western Alberta, being an atheist is not a popular thing, but it demonstrated some sort of intellectual independence.

But on GAF that whole idea of "rational and logical Atheist" went down the shitter :lol

It seems that a lot of them are willfully ignorant.

Changing your mood, doesn't mean it distracts you from God. The prophet himself, said that there is a time for a man to relax and a time to work or do dikr ( i.e Moderation). But yeay, looking at what happened from a historical context, we might never learn where and why and how this came about. Bid'a has always been our enemy.

Oh and for the guitar part, check post above

 

[Vito]

Compared to what the moors( Muslims) designed, the previous works were less compatible. You can take my post as Muslims invented " The Modern Guitar".

But yeah, essentially that's what it means.

No, what it means that you like to twist facts to suit your agenda. The Moors were a part of the process that in the end got us the modern classical guitar.

 

[AmMortal]

No, what it means that you like to twist facts to suit your agenda. The Moors were a part of the process that in the end got us the modern classical guitar.

'har har, sir. Fact is that Modern Guitar is the way it is because of the moors. I'm not the only one. There was a channel 4 documentary "When Moors Ruled in Europe", with insights from non-muslims. On what happened in Andalusia.

The School of athens painting( by Raphael Sanzio) , shows how much influence the Islamic faith had on europe

 

[Instigator]

Does AmMortal work for the McCain campaign?

 

[AmMortal]

Does AmMortal work for the McCain campaign?

:lol
Yeah, haven't you read the small print in the OP?

[ This thread was brought to you by John McCain.. Change we can believe in...]

 

[Azih]

Belief in the signs of the day of judgement is fundamental,

Sure, Everything in the Quran is the word of god

these things are subject to research.

I just don't see how any of this research is in any way different from what the Nostradamus guys carry out

Many scholars agree that most, if not all, of the minor signs have already come to pass.

I'm not exactly impressed by these 'scholars' in any way

Don't get me wrong, were not crazy people that that think that the world is gonna end tommorow,

Neither are most of the Nostradamus people

Which is why I said these things are very open to debate and need extensive research.

You keep on talking about research but I just don't see any rigour at all in this.

 

[Vito]

'har har, sir. Fact is that Modern Guitar is the way it is because of the moors. I'm not the only one. There was a channel 4 documentary "When Moors Ruled in Europe", with insights from non-muslims. On what happened in Andalusia.

The School of athens painting( by Raphael Sanzio) , shows how much influence the Islamic faith had on europe

"I saw it on TV, it must be true!" Half the time you sound like a dumb football fan rooting for his own team.

 

[AmMortal]

"I saw it on TV, it must be true!"

The school of Athens is fake too huh >_>


Thank you for your participation in this thread. Goodbye.

Sure, Everything in the Quran is the word of god

I just don't see how any of this research is in any way different from what the Nostradamus guys carry out

I'm not exactly impressed by these 'scholars' in any way

Neither are most of the Nostradamus people

You keep on talking about research but I just don't see any rigour at all in this.

The keeping the Alamaat of yaw-ul-Qiyama in mind, is vital. Whether or not you choose to do this, is up to you, the fact remains that RasulAllah(saw), talked heavily and extensively about that Day, what will happen before it, and how it will happen. The research I was pointing to was, that due to our circumstances around the world, we need more work done into this category, by scholars. Remember hadith methodology is complex ( do you believe in ahadith btw?).

 

[Vito]

The school of Athens is fake too huh >_>


Thank you for your participation in this thread. Goodbye.

You were the one that failed to provide a good argument. And throwing in a random picture in your post made no sense at all.

 

[castle007]

The school of Athens is fake too huh >_>


Thank you for your participation in this thread. Goodbye.

Of course it is fake!! The whole documentary was just made to show that muslims invented things. God forbid that they invented/improved anything!!

 

[AmMortal]

Of course it is fake!! The whole documentary was just made to show that muslims invented things. God forbid that they invented/improved anything!!

:lol

 

[Azih]

The research I was pointing to was, that due to our circumstances around the world, we need more work done into this category, by scholars.

And it was exactly this work and these scholars that I am callling into question and you are not defending them at all especially when I compare them to the Nostradamus guys.

Remember hadith methodology is complex ( do you believe in ahadith btw?).

No, and mostly because the work and scholarship that goes into interpreting and using the Hadith is extremely unimpressive.

 

[Azih]

The school of Athens is fake too huh >_>

I'm going to have to go with Vito on this one, what you're saying now is *significantly* different from your initial claim of Muslims inventing the guitar.

 

[AmMortal]

And it was exactly this work and these scholars that I am callling into question and you are not defending them at all especially when I compare them to the Nostradamus guys. No, and mostly because the work and scholarship that goes into interpreting and using the Hadith is extremely unimpressive.

Ah, so that explains it.

Well, can I ask you how you pray salah?

or when you pray salah?

 

[N-Bomb]

No, what it means that you like to twist facts to suit your agenda. The Moors were a part of the process that in the end got us the modern classical guitar.

I like how he put this. 'part of the process' not the initiator.