OKCupid urges users to not use Firefox

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There is no "belief" here, there is the public support of a proposition that restricted the rights of gay people. This two sided bullshit has got to stop.
belief, opinion, whatever the fuck you want to call it.

There'd be no question that if he donated to a white supremacist group that called for an amendment that would have banned interracial marriage, his job would have been called for immediately after it came to light.
if you say so. But there is a big difference between being a racist and running a company as racist.

i'm gonna stop you right there

no

you've made a bad post and i'm not sure why you want to argue the point so much. being for gay rights and being against gay rights are not equivalent positions. period.
I'm arguing the point because I don't believe people have the right to ostracize this man or anyone else just because they disagree with him in his personal life. If he starts changing policy saying gays can't work at Firefox and other shit like that, absolutely roast him all you want. But to try and prevent him from being CEO because he disagrees in his personal life, is where I draw the line.

1. Being racist can lead to a person getting fired.

2. This argument has absolutely no logical merit. You are arguing that he is being fired for holding position X and that position X spans the entirety of possible opinions. However, in this case X is defined...being able to fire him for his position only leads to the ability of firing people for holding that exact same position.
Being racist in your personal life will not get you fired. Being racist at your job and being completely overtly racist will.

Yes it does have logical merit, its his personal life. He's not using Firefox money or pledging money in the name of Firefox towards his beliefs and until he does, I disagree with this movement to get him thrown out of his job.

I'm pro gay rights, I'm also pro the ability to do whatever the fuck you want in your personal life as long as its not illegal. Want to go to a Klan rally? Great, have fun, just don't burn any crosses or hang anyone, or do anything else illegal. You want to oppose gay rights? Great, your on a losing cause, but more power to you.
 
belief, opinion, whatever the fuck you want to call it.

if you say so. But there is a big difference between being a racist and running a company as racist.

I'm arguing the point because I don't believe people have the right to ostracize this man or anyone else just because they disagree with him in his personal life. If he starts changing policy saying gays can't work at Firefox and other shit like that, absolutely roast him all you want. But to try and prevent him from being CEO because he disagrees in his personal life, is where I draw the line.

Being racist in your personal life will not get you fired. Being racist at your job and being completely overtly racist will.

Yes it does have logical merit, its his personal life. He's not using Firefox money or pledging money in the name of Firefox towards his beliefs and until he does, I disagree with this movement to get him thrown out of his job.

I'm pro gay rights, I'm also pro the ability to do whatever the fuck you want in your personal life as long as its not illegal. Want to go to a Klan rally? Great, have fun, just don't burn any crosses or hang anyone, or do anything else illegal. You want to oppose gay rights? Great, your on a losing cause, but more power to you.

It's not just belief, it's not just opinion, it's complete and utter activism and assisting in the restriction of gay rights.
 
If your position is borne from religion, yes you can.

Same as you can consider 90% of the world as sinners that are going to hell but still treat them as normal people and not lepers.

Telling someone they can't get married and have legal rights is not treating somebody as a normal person. Maybe not a leper, but it's the same direction.

And sure, anybody can come up with some cockamamie "I read the bible and it said I can like gay people but I can't like them marrying" but that doesn't hold any logical water.
 
If your position is borne from religion, yes you can.

Same as you can consider 90% of the world as sinners that are going to hell but still treat them as normal people and not lepers.

Heh. Except that contributing financially to a cause which actively seeks to suppress the rights of other people isn't treating them as normal people.
 
If your position is borne from religion, yes you can.

Same as you can consider 90% of the world as sinners that are going to hell but still treat them as normal people and not lepers.

Complete nonsense. Your interpretation of of your religion has a problem with gay people in it's belief set. You align your beliefs to that interpretation. So your belief set is one that has a problem with gay people.

Where those beliefs came from is of no consequence, be it from friends, family, media, or text. The fact that the belief comes from a text instead of let's say, your dad, doesn't somehow change that fact that it's a belief, or that you hold it, or the ramifications of holding said belief, at least in the context of this discussion.
 
Ok, devolution. you Know damn well what I'm trying to say, but you are trying to bait another ban. Allow it.Stated my opinion, defended it and now im out. You are free to disagree if you wish.

There's other people in this thread.

I'm arguing the point because I don't believe people have the right to ostracize this man or anyone else just because they disagree with him in his personal life. If he starts changing policy saying gays can't work at Firefox and other shit like that, absolutely roast him all you want. But to try and prevent him from being CEO because he disagrees in his personal life, is where I draw the line.

Except that it's not just limited to his personal life, because he actually financially supported the cause.
 
Just so I'm clear, is the worry here that using Firefox = supporting Firefox = putting money in Eich's pockets = potentially funding the next Prop 8? Because I can't think of anything anti-gay that Firefox could do in and of itself.
 
if you choose to keep a homophobe in charge of your company rather than forcing him to step down it sort of does

If we started judging CEOs on their morals there would be a lot less good CEOs.


I'll maintain my stance that this boycott is silly since it was before he had any affiliation with Mozilla. If he was still making donations now, I would see the reason for the boycott.
 
Ok, devolution. you Know damn well what I'm trying to say, but you are trying to bait another ban. Allow it.Stated my opinion, defended it and now im out. You are free to disagree if you wish.

Restricting the rights of others implicitly or explicitly is hardly treating them as normal. Using a book or cherry picking a verse to discriminate on the basis of gender, race or sexual orientation is the very definition of bigotry. In this case, quite the epitome of homophobic ideas and typical justifications.
 
Sorry, my bad. I missread your post. I thought you were being your normal scumbag self. You are known as being a crazy republican on this board.

Are you sure you know who I am? Stop with these baseless personal attacks, they make you look like the lesser person.
 
I feel this is not the way to win people over.

Guys, the country is moving towards gay marriage being legal. It is going to happen, it is only a matter of time. Don't poison the well by starting witch hunts. This just bolsters and hardens their resolve.

Is this is just vengeance?
 
Being racist in your personal life will not get you fired. Being racist at your job and being completely overtly racist will.

Yes it does have logical merit, its his personal life. He's not using Firefox money or pledging money in the name of Firefox towards his beliefs and until he does, I disagree with this movement to get him thrown out of his job.

I'm pro gay rights, I'm also pro the ability to do whatever the fuck you want in your personal life as long as its not illegal. Want to go to a Klan rally? Great, have fun, just don't burn any crosses or hang anyone, or do anything else illegal. You want to oppose gay rights? Great, your on a losing cause, but more power to you.

Silly differentiation. If we didn't know he was overtly anti-gay marriage, this would not be an argument. However we know.

Also, no, your argument literally has no logical merit. This is not an opinion - you are using logical fallacies to defend your stance. The argument that I laid out in my previous post does not rely on money coming from firefox for him to be fired, and for that not to be extrapolated to the ability to fire anyone for any position they hold. You can disagree all you want, but that disagreement only stems from your own personal beliefs and has no logical support.
 
I feel this is not the way to win people over.

Guys, the country is moving towards gay marriage being legal. It is going to happen, it is only a matter of time. Don't poison the well by starting witch hunts. This just bolsters and hardens their resolve.

CEOs like this can bolster and harden their resolve all they want, it doesn't make these positions any more likely to be held by their successors

I'm not interested in arguing with any of you

which is why you've now posted argumentative content several times in a thread you profess to not want to post in
 
and Im saying to them and you. Ok. Ive stated my opinion, you don't agree. Leave it as that. I'm not interested in arguing with any of you. Peace.

Give up if you want, but you can piss off if you think you're getting any "peace" after basically trolling the thread without any intention of debating.

If we started judging CEOs on their morals there would be a lot less good CEOs.

Good CEO's are not a zero-sum game. If this guy leaves, there's likely at least dozens of other qualified candidates (keeping in mind that it's hard to quantify "qualified").
 
I feel this is not the way to win people over.

Guys, the country is moving towards gay marriage being legal. It is going to happen, it is only a matter of time. Don't poison the well by starting witch hunts. This just bolsters and hardens their resolve.

Is this is just vengeance?

lol whatever. if someone's gonna stop supporting gay rights because people boycotted Firefox, they weren't very good allies to begin with. I don't want allies that would flip sides so willy-nilly.
 
Being racist in your personal life will not get you fired. Being racist at your job and being completely overtly racist will.

If you are a public figure it can and often will get you fired. It would likely be in your employment contract that the company can fire you if they feel your personal life is giving the company bad publicity.

I'm pro gay rights, I'm also pro the ability to do whatever the fuck you want in your personal life as long as its not illegal. Want to go to a Klan rally? Great, have fun, just don't burn any crosses or hang anyone, or do anything else illegal. You want to oppose gay rights? Great, your on a losing cause, but more power to you.

I think there is merit to your view, but the problem is that people most certainly have the right to boycott a product for one of it's employees actions, opinions, or anything really. Your view creates a problem for the business when something controversial happens.

Theoretically the inability to respond to controversy could put entire companies at risk, and at minimum could cost jobs. I really don't think it's unreasonable as long as a company clearly states upon hiring if your position in particular can be eliminated due to controversy.
 
I genuinely hope this guy is fired because I like using Firefox and he is a bad image for them. I always viewed Firefox as a liberal browser.
 
Is this is just vengeance?

That's subjective.

If I were to boycott Firefox it would be to try to change something "bigger picture" wise, not for "vengeance" against the CEO.

I'd call it intimidation if anything. I'd rather just call it letting companies known there are consumers who will refuse to do business with companies whose executives spend their money fighting against gay marriage. That's the simplest way I can put it.
 
If anything, this thread got me to abandon Firefox and start using Chrome. Putting bigots in publicly facing positions is bad business. Sure, he has freedom of speech, but I have the freedom to tell their company and their products where to shove it.

I'm not saying they should fire the guy, but I won't use Firefox again until he's out. If that makes me some kind of bleeding heart, then so be it.
 
I was part of the chrome master race until it started sucking, then I went to FF. Now there's only internet exploder left for us.

This is the sort of day that I wish Debian made Iceweasel packages for other operating systems.

I genuinely hope this guy is fired because I like using Firefox and he is a bad image for them. I always viewed Firefox as a liberal browser.

I've always happily associated open-source projects as anti-politics, too decentralized to be overcome by any particular direction. I've always liked it that way. But Firefox is a big'un.
 
If he steps down, this campaign will serve as yet another example of how it's becoming less culturally-acceptable to be homophobic with each passing year. It will set an example for acceptable public behavior.

That's not a small thing.
 
I don't. I know a lot of old school (non-Millennial) engineers, and they're disproportionately conservative. My company has a lot of them, and some of them are shockingly, loudly conservative, to the point where you'd think you walked into a tea party rally. You wonder how so many people who rely on science to get their job done can be so anti-science at times...

I know there's a lot of left leaning people in the tech industry, but you usually find them in start-ups. The old, conservative curmudgeons just migrate to older, established companies.

Hm, interesting. I've noticed this effect to an extent with older programmers etc. I guess what I meant was it takes a special level of intelligence to write a programming language from scratch in 10 days. But yeah, I know what you mean, still. I've known several intelligent people in my life who, seemingly out of nowhere, espouse absolute garbage views.

I turned off JavaScript in my browser since this happened. Try it. It's liberating.

lol
 
Then you shouldn't see a problem with firing someone over the latter. As much as I agree with having gay rights, I don't see how you can not see firing someone for their position on either side of the issue as equivalent.

While I accept the argument that people shouldn't be fired only for their opinions on this matter, a CEO is more than a mere employee. To represent the company is certainly one of the considerations being made when a CEO is chosen; how he/she behaves publicly matters.

At this point, Brendan Eich should step down, recognizing his continuing as CEO is damaging the company, which means he's not doing his job right. That simple.
 
Even though I think Brendan Eich's stance on marriage equality is just stupid, I think what Ok Cupid is doing is just as stupid.

Boycotting Mozilla is just going to hurt the regular employees.

It's not as if using Firefox will make you homophobic.
 
If we started judging CEOs on their morals there would be a lot less good CEOs.


I'll maintain my stance that this boycott is silly since it was before he had any affiliation with Mozilla. If he was still making donations now, I would see the reason for the boycott.

they were listed as his employer when he made the donation.
 
Not sure how Eich stepping down helps Mozilla at this point. The damage (such as it is) is already being done. Really, their mistake was picking an engineer who had heavily republican leanings. Incidentally, being an engineer and working with engineers... not remotely shocking.

Wonder how many google and apple employees made similar donations.
 
I figure I might as well repost what I had to say in the similar thread we had about personal use of Firefox after this came out:
I'm pretty uncomfortable with the idea of a boycott for this, provided I understand everything correctly and the problem here is just that Mozilla promoted a guy who has hateful views and makes political donations but does not leverage his position with Mozilla to influence politics in any interesting way (he might still use his salary, but I think that's rather different).

A commitment to substantive free speech requires that we not go after people for political disagreement and that we treat political engagement the same regardless of the views of the people doing the engaging. That is, it's fine to want to go after the Koch brothers because they're trying to control the entire political system and nobody regardless of their political views should be doing that, but even though this guy is going to have had a bigger impact on politics than the average person just because of how much money he can bring to bear, the kind of thing he's done isn't (procedurally) irregular and isn't the sort of thing most people usually get upset about. This is clearly about his political views rather than his method of advocacy.

And maybe there are exceptions around the edges. Maybe the right response to neo-Nazis is to shun them out of society. But let's have some perspective here - there's a pretty big evil-ness gap between opposing gay marriage and wanting to commit genocide. The odiousness of the view needs to overcome the general importance of not punishing people for their political views and activity. But what distinguishes gay marriage as an issue is not so much that it is vitally important to the welfare of gay people but rather that it is absurdly easy to land on the right side of - there's just nothing resembling a reasonable argument against it, such that it's very easy to label opponents bigots. It's a highly salient issue because the answer seems so obvious (to be fair, it seems obvious to people on both sides) rather than because getting it right in the short-term is very important. If you just wanted to punish people who support policy that makes innocent people worse off, because it does that, you should probably start with supporters of the Republicans' economic agenda rather than their social one.

To be clear, I'm not making a "you have to care about these eight other things which are more important than this in order to be allowed to care about this" argument. I'm pointing out that the sorts of principles being applied to justify a Mozilla boycott here (or similar) are completely opposed to existing norms of not punishing people for political disagreement. The arguments would justify boycotts for just about any significant political disagreement, if someone were motivated to do that. And that's a problem because we like these norms and it's very important that we not have boycotts for just about every significant political disagreement. It's a categorical imperative thing. We do need to tolerate a certain amount of intolerance, if it's expressed in a procedurally acceptable way.
 
I don't agree with the CEOs opinion, but I'm also not going to switch browsers when there's plenty of people at Mozilla who more than likely have absolutely no problem with gays. I'm also not going to switch browsers because I feel like everyone is entitled to their own opinion, even if I don't personally agree with it, and at the end of the day Firefox is still the superior browser experience. Chrome doesn't feel like it has as big of a selection of addons, and I don't like the look of internet explorer. Safari and Opera are completely irrelevant to me.
 
Boycotting Mozilla is just going to hurt the regular employees.

But

Mozilla's Employees want him to step down as CEO too

Mozilla employees tell Brendan Eich he needs to “step down”


This morning, a number of Mozilla employees took to Twitter with a united, nearly simultaneous message to new Mozilla Foundation CEO Brendan Eich: "Step down."

The internal response began this morning with two tweets from Mozilla Open Badges project lead Chris McAvoy. "I love @mozilla but I'm disappointed this week," McAvoy said, referring to the controversial decision to appoint Eich as CEO after he had donated thousands to both California's Proposition 8 and political candidates who supported it. "@mozilla stands for openness and empowerment, but is acting in the opposite way." He then made a more pronounced declaration: "I'm an employee of @mozilla and I'm asking @brendaneich to step down as CEO."

Within minutes, many other Mozilla employees followed suit, using similar language or copying each other's statements outright. Those included Mozilla Festival curator Chloe Vareldi, partnerships lead John Bevan, designer Jessica Klein, and engagement team member Sydney Moyer.

McAvoy added that he feels fortunate to work at a company like Mozilla, "where I can say that without fear of retribution."

We have reached out to McAvoy for comment.
 
Since we're in an era where freedom of speech and opinion is outrageously conflated with the freedom to express an opinion without consequences enacted by equally free individuals and organisations, I feel compelled to point out that freedom of speech does not grant immunity from criticism. If OkCupid's management disagree with the new CEO of Mozilla, they are quite free to express that disagreement in any way they see fit.

This is 100% true, but I'm pretty sure you can't fire someone for donating money to a political campaign. Even if the campaign supports the removal of rights of other citizens.

Mozilla's CEO is completely wrong in making his donations, but I wouldn't want someone being fired over someone's interpretation of political action vote/donation.

To us, this is an issue that is black and white, or at least to most of the people on these boards, to others, it involves an evolution or process of tolerance for people to overcome tradition and indoctrination.

OkCupid is completely in the right to do what they are doing, but I also feel Mozilla will have a difficult time coming up with a justification for firing an employee over political/religious beliefs. I'm still kind of iffy on doing that kind of thing, because of the ramifications this would have. It may be legal, but it's continued legality is something that I question.

Edit: Also, you are right, that this hiding of bigotry within religion messes things up, but really, anyone can interpret what they want out of religious texts. Religion is protected in this country due to the fact that it has been used as a reason to discriminate against and persecute others.
 
Also. something that would justify firing him is the fact that it leaked out that the CEO of Mozilla made these contributions. The only problem I may have with it is that the CEO of the company is damaging the brand by having this out in the open and causing a firestorm. Any other employee, and this wouldn't be an issue that could get someone fired.
 
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"Internet Exploder," sounds dangerous.

OK I love this and approve wholeheartedly.
 
While I can appreciate where this boycott is coming from, I'm a little uncomfortable pressuring businesses to further investigate the personal lives of their employees. There should be a clear separation between personal and work life, IMO.

Disagree. I wouldn't want to work with racist employees, or misogynistic employees. Why the hell would I want to work with homophobic ones?
 
Straw everywhere.

Its true though. Go back a few years in the 90s 80s or all the way to the founding fathers of US. There would be many who were for all kinds of civil rights but would Always say marriage is between a man and a woman. There are people who clearly believe have sex with whoever its your private business and yet marriage through what is defined in the last millinia or more is man and a woman, its an opinion which is held by many, good people too and bad
 
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