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On the Idea of Idris Elba being James Bond

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megamerican

Member
Why not a spin off idris 006? If we for age next bond should be dan stevens

Look at how well that worked out for Renner's Bourne film, and he wasn't even competing against the "real" franchise as Elba would be.

I agree with Stevens though. The Guest showed that he has the perfect blend of charm and edge to pull off the character. Fassbender and Cavill don't need Bond at this point, and each is likely to be involved in multiple tentpole franchises for the foreseeable future.
 
Unfortunately, the same people decrying it have their valid position undermined by hypocritically supporting 'colour-blind' casting for traditionally white roles in the same breath.

I think what they're getting at more than anything is examining and judging the weight of those traditions, and whether or not those traditions are even altogether valid, or worth continuing beyond the sake of simply continuing them as a mindless practice.

Some characters obviously maintain their traditional skin color because that aspect of their character is a fairly key one. Some maintain that tradition for no other reason than it's tradition, and there's no examination of that tradition or where it fits in the larger storytelling possibilities.

As you brought up earlier in the thread: Bond is pretty far removed from Fleming's vision of him, even after the mostly-accurate adaptation of Casino Royale (comparatively speaking, of course), and the name James Bond doesn't really stand for anything beyond "Guy in cool suit with awesome car shoots bad guys and has sex with hot women," and hasn't stood for much more than that for decades now.

So the question is, does Bond's skin color really have anything to do with that conception of the character?
 

Rich!

Member
What, Craig is gay (or bi, since he's married to a woman)?

yeah, I don't get that post either. craig is straight, his Bond is straight. And Moore wouldn't care either way.

And in terms of what he thinks of Craig as Bond, Moore thinks Daniel Craig is the best James Bond there has ever been:

After your good self, is Sean Connery still your favorite Bond?

I think that he [Daniel Craig] is the Bond. He’s quite brilliant. I wrote to Barbara [Broccoli] and Michael [Wilson] and said…they’ve guaranteed Bond another 50 years of life.

Presumably you’d seen the other two Daniel Craig Bond movies?

Yes, I thought Casino Royale was tremendous. I thought his action was quite extraordinary—he did more action in the first 30 seconds of the film than I did in 14 years of playing Bond. To me, he looks like a killer. He looks as though he knows what he’s doing. I look as though I might cheat at backgammon.
 

wenis

Registered for GAF on September 11, 2001.
Idris would certainly get me to watch another Bond film. They've all been rubbish since Goldeneye.
 

xandaca

Member
I think what they're getting at more than anything is examining and judging the weight of those traditions, and whether or not those traditions are even altogether valid, or worth continuing beyond the sake of simply continuing them as a mindless practice.

Some characters obviously maintain their traditional skin color because that aspect of their character is a fairly key one. Some maintain that tradition for no other reason than it's tradition, and there's no examination of that tradition or where it fits in the larger storytelling possibilities.

As you brought up earlier in the thread: Bond is pretty far removed from Fleming's vision of him, even after the mostly-accurate adaptation of Casino Royale (comparatively speaking, of course), and the name James Bond doesn't really stand for anything beyond "Guy in cool suit with awesome car shoots bad guys and has sex with hot women," and hasn't stood for much more than that for decades now.

So the question is, does Bond's skin color really have anything to do with that conception of the character?

IMO the source material should only be changed if there's a reason for it to be changed - and sometimes, as mentioned, a different ethnic background can evoke different things for a character. Fans are perfectly entitled to demand (within reason - I sympathise with those who didn't want Craig, but the campaign went way over the top) that tradition be respected, because it's that tradition they have emotionally invested in and the creator envisaged for their character. If anyone can tell me a reason why such a conspicuous change as altering James Bond's race NEEDS to happen, why there's anything internally wrong (aka regardless of politics existing outside the fictional world) with keeping him white as he is now, I'd be happy to hear it. As I've said all along, were Idris Elba five years younger, he's got the right gruff charisma, manly looks and acting ability to be great in the role. However, so do Fassbender, Hardy, Stevens, Madden, maybe Sturgess, etc. In the situation where there's no creative need to change the source material, I don't believe in doing so. If people have engaged with a character, keeping that character consistent is not mindless at all. The question is not 'why should we not change this character?', or else you might as well abandon any idea of creative continuity altogether. The question is 'is there any need to change this character?' If the answer is 'yes', do so. If 'no', then don't.

You are right that the modern Bond bares little in common with either the early films or the character Fleming laid out - making him significantly less interesting IMO, but that's totally subjective - but while that means bringing in a black actor certainly wouldn't be as impactful, for lack of a better term, on the role as it would've been back in 't day, it's still a needless change that I think undermines the character as a credible fictional entity. It's as much about the fact Bond has been portrayed as white on-screen already. I have less of a problem if a character's race is changed from the very start, as that's the beginning of a character's screen continuity. It can work with reboots too, though as mentioned before, I generally find rebooting to be an awful practice (again, subjective) and will never advocate for it.

Re: colour-blind casting, the obvious difficulty is that the bulk of popular Western entertainment is based around white straight male characters, meaning that by keeping a lock on those physical attributes, there is a very real and valid concern that, since Hollywood is producing next to no original movies these days, minority actors will have no way of being fairly represented on-screen, a self-perpetuating cycle. I think there are solutions to this, first among them being to give more minority actors the lead roles in blockbuster parts where the protagonists do not have a clearly defined identity, e.g. your Transformers movies, Pirates Of The Caribbean, Fast & Furious (Paul Walker replacement?) Star Wars (fantastic they're doing exactly this), Star Trek (if they ever do a movie/series with a new crew), as well as the few original movies like Interstellar, and indies, which are no less overwhelmingly white. That's not to mention the importance of getting more non-white directors, writers, etc.

Just as whitewashing is rightly loathed and criticised, changing any character's race creates needless antagonism with fans (well, certain fans - there are plenty who don't particularly care or share my views, which is of course perfectly fair) and consequently makes race a conspicuous part of the casting, intentionally or not forcing external politics onto the creative work. There will always be racists out there who just don't want to see minority faces in anything, but casting consistently gives easy arguments to expose those people's prejudices, whereas advocating blind casting for white roles allows them to cloak their hatred in a semi-legitimate point. For me, progress will be being made when minority actors are being fairly represented by enough original lead roles, even (or especially) in existing properties, to be cast 'invisibly'. Colourblind casting does make race an issue and I for one don't see that as being particularly helpful in the bigger picture. (Rant over)
 

Dabanton

Member
What, Craig is gay (or bi, since he's married to a woman)?

Allegedly his bi, but has lately swung more to male.

I got told by someone 'in the know' that there was a bit of a panic during the production of Skyfall as Craig went 'off message' and was spotted being very amorous with another gentleman.
 

JimiNutz

Banned
Idris as Bond is one of the best casting suggestions I've ever heard - And that's coming from a white Englishman named James.
 

xandaca

Member
So you see Bond as a "white role" and you're worried about negative reactions being a problem if they go another way?

This is why things are the way they are. Moderate types that want the status quo, if only to avoid controversy.

Honestly, a race switch would barely be a blip given how much Bond has evolved and how many different people have played him. Except for the opinions of racists. That's honestly the only relevant negative factor.

Great. Let's turn every single character in fiction to being portrayed by fish, or spanners, or cirrocumuli. Why? Because pointless change is always good and everyone who disagrees is a racist. Nailed it!
 
Great. Let's turn every single character in fiction to being portrayed by fish, or spanners, or cirrocumuli. Why? Because pointless change is always good and everyone who disagrees is a racist. Nailed it!

How is it pointless change? Idris is one of the best actors in the country and happens to really fucking fit the role.

Please explain.
 

Blader

Member
Great. Let's turn every single character in fiction to being portrayed by fish, or spanners, or cirrocumuli. Why? Because pointless change is always good and everyone who disagrees is a racist. Nailed it!

Not necessarily, but you're not doing yourself any favors with those comparisons either.
 
How is it pointless change? Idris is one of the best actors in the country and happens to really fucking fit the role.

Please explain.

he explained pretty thoroughly up above. I don't necessarily agree with most of it (the argument tends to place a high level of value on fan appeasement and adherence to "creative continuity," and places a pretty low bar on where "pointlessness" comes into play) but the argument is spelled out in detail a few posts back.

My take is almost always that when people advocate for sentiments that sound great on the face of them, like "why don't they make something new for these minorities instead of putting them in white roles" what they're usually saying is "why don't they make a separate thing that allows me to easily ignore them over there somewhere instead of forcing me to reappraise the characters/fiction I'm consuming?"

Like I said earlier - there's a TON of cool spy stuff that's been coming out for awhile now. If you don't like the idea that Bond could be a black guy (or even worse, a black guy that implements codename theory finally) why not move over to that new stuff you claim to want so badly instead of worrying over what Bond's become?
 

Apath

Member
I am on board the Idris-for-Bond bandwagon. Daniel Craig is good and I hope he isn't gone any time soon, but Idris Elba should absolutely be the next James Bond.
 

Tugatrix

Member
Look at how well that worked out for Renner's Bourne film, and he wasn't even competing against the "real" franchise as Elba would be.

I agree with Stevens though. The Guest showed that he has the perfect blend of charm and edge to pull off the character. Fassbender and Cavill don't need Bond at this point, and each is likely to be involved in multiple tentpole franchises for the foreseeable future.

it's always a risk but I was thinking in setting 006 as a future Anti-Bond agent, they could go with naming him Alec Trevalian
 

Abounder

Banned
I would love to see a billion dollar global brand hand the leading role to a non-white person, but talk is cheap. I look at other billion dollar franchises like MCU/Transformers/Avatar/etc and it seems like out of 15+ movies the only top billing black person is a green or blue Zoe Saldana.

When it comes to fans rejecting the idea of a black Bond I am not surprised considering fans didn't embrace the lighter-haired Daniel Craig either. This is a franchise where Bond driving a BMW or any non-Aston Martin creates "controversy".

I am on board the Idris-for-Bond bandwagon. Daniel Craig is good and I hope he isn't gone any time soon, but Idris Elba should absolutely be the next James Bond.

Elba only works as Bond if Craig retires sooner than later. It doesn't make creative or business sense to hire someone in their late 40's/early 50's for a film franchise.
 

enigmatic_alex44

Whenever a game uses "middleware," I expect mediocrity. Just see how poor TLOU looks.
Idris would be fine, he has that cool, confident thing down pat that Bond needs and the movie going public loves him as an actor.

I mean, Pierce Brosnan managed to be Bond for several films and he was beyond terrible. So if Bronsan got several chances, give Elba at least one.
 
Moore's quote has probably been commented to death, but the lack of a full transcript may have made it weird.

"C'est néanmoins une idée intéressante, mais irréaliste" may refer to:
The question "Idris Elba, le prochain Bond?.
The idea "Il doit être anglais-anglais".
The remark "Cuba Gooding Jr. ferait un excellent Bond".

By the excerpt's context, only one answers the question directly but another chains all the sentences properly.

Really unfortunate situation.
 

Sheroking

Member
I still think he's a little old. He'd be 44 by the time his first movie came out, at best, and he looks his age. After Roger Moore, I don't want any 50+ Bonds.

I would have loved a 35 year old Idris Elba as Bond, though.
 

Matt_C

Member
If not Idris Elba, Sasha Baron Cohen would be my pick. I know he is a comedy actor but the dude is talented and has a large screen presence. Also, the Bond character is an orphan and raised to be a spy.
 

123rl

Member
The rumours have really pissed off some Daily Mail readers so I'm in support of it purely for that reason. Fuck those racist pricks who hate the idea of a black man being Bond. I don't care what colour he is and I don't think it's change just for the sake of change. Elba is a great actor and he'd kill it in that role.
 

norinrad

Member
The only thing that ever pissed me off was Ice Cube replacing Van Diesel in xXx, God that pissed me off.

Anyway am rooting for Idris. He's awesome.
 

Helmholtz

Member
I'd rather have someone like Fassbender.
If they could get Idris started as soon as the next film, it could work. But any longer of a wait and he'll be too old for the roll. There's only a 5 year age gap between him and Craig.
 

xandaca

Member
But you're simply stating that even thinking of casting him is a "pointless change". Even though Bond has been portrayed by many different actors anyway. If we were talking about Chris Tucker taking on Bond I'd be against it. Elba, though? Fuck no. He'd be great. But sure. Paint me with the librul SJW brush. I'm only in this for Affirmative Action, yeah?

As someone else pointed out, if chumps like Pierce Brosnan can get the role for years at a time, why should an actual great actor like Idris Elba be out of the running? It's not like Daniel Craig was born of a Sean Connery cloning initiative, and he's apparently fine. You're saying Bond, with his obscure background, played by many different actors, can be played by any actor who fits the type... Unless he's black. Hell yes, that's racist.

I suggest you actually read what I posted before making these blanket claims. I previously made the exact argument you stated about Fassbender and other actors being at least equally suitable for taking the role, not to mention having covered just about every other point you tried to raise. I also asked for someone, particularly those like you who think anyone who would prefer to stick with white actors is immediately a complete and unmitigated racist, to come up with a reason why Bond apparently NEEDS to be non-white, justifying a conspicuous change which would only antagonises fans, makes race a very prominent point of the casting, and risks damaging the integrity of the fictional world.

BobbyRoberts said:
My take is almost always that when people advocate for sentiments that sound great on the face of them, like "why don't they make something new for these minorities instead of putting them in white roles" what they're usually saying is "why don't they make a separate thing that allows me to easily ignore them over there somewhere instead of forcing me to reappraise the characters/fiction I'm consuming?"

Like I said earlier - there's a TON of cool spy stuff that's been coming out for awhile now. If you don't like the idea that Bond could be a black guy (or even worse, a black guy that implements codename theory finally) why not move over to that new stuff you claim to want so badly instead of worrying over what Bond's become?

Actually, I advocated for minority actors to be in contention for lead roles in many series I enjoy (Star Wars, Star Trek, Fast & Furious, etc), so not exactly trying to 'easily ignore them over there'. As for your second point, I'm not sure where you got the idea that I refuse to watch anything spy-related other than Bond, other than it being awfully convenient to tar anyone who asks you to justify your stated beliefs as a bigot who just wants to keep minority actors out of sight. Or indeed why someone with a lifelong emotional investment in a character should be told that investment is entirely invalid and should get lost for suggesting in the most moderate terms possible that they'd prefer maintaining an entirely satisfying and functional status quo above a very conspicuous change to the character as long as no-one can come up with any creative/artistic reasons for doing so.

Blader said:
Not necessarily, but you're not doing yourself any favors with those comparisons either.

What's wrong with fish, spanners or cirrocumuli? YOU RAGING CIRROCUMULIST.
 

xandaca

Member
Of course Fassbender is a good candidate. Great, intense actor to watch. He has shown range; watch a film like Frank to see him playing a vulnerable, gregarious yet closed off, mentally ill character who is nothing like his usual typecast intense dangerous man roles. I'd love him as Bond.

But you aren't handwringing over him. You're getting all worked up over Elba for a reason. Bond doesn't "NEED to be non-white" as you claim I am saying. If you want to peel apart what each of us has actually said, I have said nothing of the sort; I even pointed out a popular, entertaining, talented black actor that I think wouldn't be a good Bond candidate.

I'm not pushing for a black Bond; I'm wondering why an immensely talented, entertaining actor like Idris Elba, who has every bit of what makes a great Bond in terms of screen presence, shouldn't be listed alongside other actors like Micheal Fassbender for a role that has seen massive changes in interpretations over many decades of films.

Except I already covered that in my before-before-last post (whichever the long one was). You may disagree and I've no absolutely problem with that - as this thread proves, plenty of people do, as do many fans just as dedicated to the character as I am. Part of being a mature human being is accepting that others can hold different, often equally valid opinions to your own and not be Evil Incarnate. You might also note that the thread is called 'Idris Elba as James Bond', not 'Michael Fassbender as James Bond', if you're wondering why he happens to be the main topic of discussion. Thread titles are always handy indicators for the direction of the posts within them.

As I've said time and time and time and time again, conveniently ignored by everyone who wants to paint everyone who disagrees with them as racists, aside from age, Elba has many of the qualities to make a great Bond or Bond-like character, at least to use the shallow modern (post-Dalton) interpretation: a generic English action hero who shoots people in a suit and has off-screen sex sometimes. To my mind, changing the character's race is a radical and conspicuous alteration to the character's traditional appearance which doesn't have a creative justification to make it worth the potential cost of upsetting a sizeable number of fans and likely compromising the integrity of the fiction.

If Elba does get in, so be it, I'll go and see the movies because I enjoy them and Elba's always a good watch. I won't pretend that his race won't distract me for at least a while, as does Lazenby's accent or Craig's thuggish appearance. For that reason, I'd prefer a white actor, especially while there are people with all Elba's qualities (Fassbender and maybe Hardy IMO stronger across the board) in addition to being closer aesthetic matches to the character as he exists to me and his general representation over the preceding 62 years. If it's to be Elba or another non-white actor, though, I'll give them the same shot I would anyone else, even if the conspicuous difference of their ethnicity will make it more difficult for them to be 100% Bond to me, just as Craig isn't even though I broadly like his work.

If you think that's anything different from what I've been saying in any of my previous posts in this thread, check my post history and you'll find yourself mistaken.
 

Blader

Member
Daniel Craig is too thuggish as Bond but Tom Hardy should be next? lol, ok.

What's wrong with fish, spanners or cirrocumuli? YOU RAGING CIRROCUMULIST.

See, I don't think you're actually racist, but the "black Bond? What's next, fish Bond?" whinging is the same gross bullshit as "two men getting married? what's next, a man can marry his dog?"
 

Screaming Meat

Unconfirmed Member
Do you really think EON is giving Idris Elba all this love as a means to cynically, calculatedly pander to liberal white people who feel good about themselves for being seen to advocate for easy progressivism in modern media?

Whether they do or don't believe what they're saying is moot. Isn't the fact they're showing love at all a good thing in itself?

or do you think they just like the guy's style?

Both. He's operating in that mildly famous but potentially bankable area too.
 

Falcs

Banned
Man I would love to see a black James Bond. It's be so different.
And all the racists would lose their shit. :)
 

Toxi

Banned
Surprised at people mentioning Henry Cavill. He didn't have much room to work with in Man of Steel. Was he good in another movie?
 

xandaca

Member
Daniel Craig is too thuggish as Bond but Tom Hardy should be next? lol, ok.



See, I don't think you're actually racist, but the "black Bond? What's next, fish Bond?" whinging is the same gross bullshit as "two men getting married? what's next, a man can marry his dog?"

Um, I'm not even close to understanding how you make that leap. Those favouring or neutral towards a black Bond have been arguing, in between the usual assault of personal insults and accusations, that all change is good and a character's appearance doesn't matter at all. I exaggerated that suggestion to comic effect as to point out the fallacy of being able to change absolutely everything about a character's aesthetics without it making any difference. That's not anything like comparing a consensual relationship between two adults to a human forcing themselves on another species, but there you go. More 'with us or against us' misrepresentation.

Fact is, the way a character looks has value. Why do most studios try and stick with the same actor across multiple movies? Because people notice the change and some may not accept the newcomer, even if they are extremely close in appearance to the first actor. When not rebooting or adapting an untouched work, they will generally aim for as close as possible to the original material for that same reason, though any logical person accepts that since human beings are not uniform in appearance, there will be some minor differences. For me personally, changing the colour of a character's skin, especially after being represented one way for fifty years, is a change too big and conspicuous to be easily hand-waved away or ignored in continuity, not least as IRL many people's looks change over time, but their skin colour generally doesn't all that much. Some people see it differently, that's fine. I don't pretend to speak for anything other than my own position, but am as entitled as anyone else to question the logic of others when it doesn't make sense to me or when they start slandering everyone who challenges their beliefs.

(As for Hardy, I don't see him as thuggish/brutish as Craig in appearance, though most of his roles have leant that way)
 
Actually, I advocated for minority actors to be in contention for lead roles in many series I enjoy (Star Wars, Star Trek, Fast & Furious, etc), so not exactly trying to 'easily ignore them over there'.

I know, I was using the royal "you" and "we" there, not addressing you specifically.
 

Vilam

Maxis Redwood
Pretty sure there has been more than one James Bond.

Nope.


Are you addressing EON here? This isn't a grassroots fan campaign. Barbara Broccoli's talked about it multiple times now.

Addressing anyone that continues to speak about it, to the press that continues to ask about it. It's silly and would ruin what makes the franchise work. Not going to lay out the same arguments from the last thread about this a week or two ago yet again though.
 
Addressing anyone that continues to speak about it, to the press that continues to ask about it. It's silly and would ruin what makes the franchise work. Not going to lay out the same arguments from the last thread about this a week or two ago yet again though.

The press asks questions about it because the producers have previously mentioned it and discussed their meetings with him.

Again, this isn't some sort of grassroots campaign run by Bond interlopers looking to hijack the series for their own gains, whatever they may be. EON themselves thinks Idris Elba is an actor worth considering.
 
There's lots of new spies out there for you to jump on if you don't like how Bond is going! You got that Kingsman thing going on, Man from UNCLE is coming out later, there's that whole Bourne series, Mission Impossible's comin out soon too! That's not even getting into stuff like The Americans, or Homeland, etc. etc.

If you like spies, theres there's a ton of shit out there to check.

Do you really think EON is giving Idris Elba all this love as a means to cynically, calculatedly pander to liberal white people who feel good about themselves for being seen to advocate for easy progressivism in modern media?

or do you think they just like the guy's style?

Personally it's your batman line that got me.
Nothing to do with Idris elba or Bond. He's cool with me.

Miles Morales, Female thor? I don't think that these creative moves make the franchises more relevant.
 

Tagyhag

Member
It's now or never, dude is 43. He may think he's too old but Daniel Craig is 48. They can at least get 2-3 Bonds out of him.

Hopefully Eon comes to their senses.
 
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