SolVanderlyn
Thanos acquires the fully powered Infinity Gauntlet in The Avengers: Infinity War, but loses when all the superheroes team up together to stop him.
Big Mom has something... her saliva is corrosive.
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One Piece Manga |OT| ZEHAHAHAHA! The Name of this Age is Blackbeard!
- Thread starter TheGreatDirector
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Imperial Bishop
Banned
A witch devil fruit wouldn't make sense. There would be some limits to a power like that.
More Fun To Compute
Member
In this matrix the people who are generally good natured but only really care about protecting what is theirs are true neutral. Most characters are supposed to fall in this category. Arguably Whitebeard could be bumped up to neutral good because he seemed to protect so many people just by waving his hand and saying that their land was part of his territory.
As for the rest I think I said before that alignment was more about motivation than how they appear. Having someone just say things like "purple monkey trousers" and randomly cause chaos is generally seen as a very lazy sort of chaotic character. I think that all heroic sorts of characters can cause chaos when their goals conflict enough with the world even lawful good characters. But a chaotic character is driven more by things like a belief that nobody or thing has any authority over them to guide their action. (Big check for Doffy, mark against for Blackbeard who knuckled under as a crew member for Whitebeard for a long time out of respect for his power.) They also believe in taking big risks over taking actions that might seem safe but not as agreeable. (Big mark against for Blackbeard, he is called a coward who only moves when he has all pieces in place)
The limit to a DF's power is how creative the user is in using it. Just look at Kuma. His "Paw-Paw fruit" gives him the ability to push away everything he touches. Sounds pretty lame at first, right? Well he mastered it to a point where he can repel any kind of attack, repel the air in front of him to create shockwaves, repel anything he touches with such precision that it lands exactly when and where he wants it to, he can compact air by simultaneously repelling it with both paws, increasing the air pressure gradient to the point where the trapped air releases a GIANT shockwave once he stops controlling it and alst but not least he can repel even NON-PHYSICAL ENTITIES LIKE "PAIN", just because he thought of doing so.
Another, more recent example would be Sugar, who can turn you into a toy, which makes everyone forget you even in the first place. She'll then form a contract with you, making you unable to disobey her at all.
I don't think in the One Piece world a "Witch-Witch" DF would be extraordinary at all.
Cloud Strife
Member
Chaotic characters aren't literally characters that cause chaos, though. Chaotic characters are those that have no regard for a system of laws to fulfill their goals, thus they are the polar opposite of lawful characters.
The reason Akainu and Blackbeard are opposites is because Akainu, while evil, still justifies his actions through maintaining order with the Marines. Blackbeard doesn't give a shit about any of that.
This is partly true. Like I said, but the definition is based on what they do rather than what they believe. Sure Doffy believes no one is above him, and so does Blackbeard, but their actions are different in nature. Blackbeard only stayed in Whitebeard's crew to get the Yami Yami fruit, not because he respected his power. He used Whitebeard because it was the best option, and clearly he didn't give a shit when he murdered a crewmate and took off as soon as the fruit was his.
Blackbeard took a ridiculous amount of risks. He stayed in Whitebeard's crew with full intent to kill a crewmember. He actually did kill Thatch and fled. Then, he faked his way into the Warlords to get into Impel Down. Then he risked it all by arriving at Marineford and hoping the Marines wouldn't focus on him entirely (Akainu was too obsessed with killing Luffy).
Just because something is calculated, doesn't mean it has no risks. Either way, the point is that Blackbeard didn't give a shit about systems or laws, not when he was with Whitebeard or the Marines. He is Chaotic Evil because he:
1) Is evil.
2) Fulfills his intentions by lying and abusing systems of law to get what he wants with no regard for the repercussions (freeing Impel Down prisoners to the world, killing Thatch, causing the entire bloody war).
More Fun To Compute
Member
Pretty sure this is backwards. Lawful characters are ones that believe in the law while anyone can use the law if they think they can use it to fulfil their goals. A neutral/chaotic character is one who uses the law when it's in their own interests. A lawful character is one who is an agent of the law even if it is not in their interest and works against their goals. It's only really extremely lawful characters who have a really intense relationship with the law.
They are both act in evil ways that much is clear.
Blackbeard calculates the risks and doesn't take really big risks. His cockyness only lasts while he thinks that he has a large advantage in contrast to Doffy who was cocky to the end. He doesn't care about the system or any laws but only means that he isn't lawful.
Both Doffy and Blackbeard use the law and the warlord system for their advantage only but that's to be expected.
But here are two major character points that make the alignment make more sense to me.
Blackbeard was respectful to Whitebeard when he thought he was stronger but betrayed him when he thought he was weaker. Neutral Evil.
Doffy straight up killed his closest family members when they thought they threatened his status or freedom even though he gained nothing from it. Chaotic Evil.
Imperial Bishop
Banned
A sh*t ton of One Piece cosplayers at Anime Expo.
https://twitter.com/SteveYurko/status/617456015735304193
https://twitter.com/SteveYurko/status/617456015735304193
acid acid fruit, maybe?
Cloud Strife
Member
This is exactly what I'm saying...Akainu believes in the law AND uses it. Doflamingo and Blackbeard are not lawful because they don't give a shit about laws, Doflamingo to a lesser extent.
It's pretty simple, Chaos is an absence of order, and Lawful is a reliance on order. Neutral is someone who uses both without a particular reliance on either (Doflamingo).
What? Are you saying characters like Blackbeard and Doflamingo are lawful because they are/were "agents" of the law? Are the World Nobles Lawful too? Their actions would define their alignment.
I have no idea what you're trying to say here.
Blackbeard took risks. Just because something is calculated doesn't mean it isn't risky. His whole fucking plan was risky. What if he never found the fruit? What if Ace killed him? What if Whitebeard never let him escape? What if Magellan killed him? What if Sengoku killed him? What about Akainu? Regardless, how is this relevant to Blackbeard's alignment?
Blackbeard doesn't care about Whitebeard or his crew. Respectful? When? He used them, even at the very end when Whitebeard has his throat he says "Wait! Aren't I your son! Don't kill me!" like the lying scumbag he is. No regard for order=Chaotic.
Doflamingo is neutral. He is like Blackbeard in that he straight up destroys things, and basically says fuck it when things aren't going his way, but you can't deny that he ran a very tight ship. The entire damn arc is about exposing his very secretive society in Dressrossa and his black market. If Doflamingo was Chaotic, why rule a kingdom? Why maintain any order at all? Just because he can kill without benefit does not make him Chaotic, you can't ignore the very manipulative side of him too.
Remember, Chaos isn't just straight up murdering people and causing mayhem, Chaos is an absence of order. In regards to the definition of a Chaotic character, they don't follow orders or maintain any.
Anything beyond this is probably just our subjective opinions, so I guess we can just agree to disagree?
More Fun To Compute
Member
Both are obviously not lawful because their motivations are not to uphold the law. This is what I'm saying. Blackbeards motivations as seen so far are to gain power which a neutral sort of goal. Where as Doffy has motivations more in line with stopping people restricting his actions which is a more chaotic goal.
Chaos isn't an absence of order. Actually without any order a chaotic character would just be some sort of slapping purple nuns with wet fish look at me my ennui is on fire. Nobody wants that. What chaotic characters should be more about is a lack of restraint when it comes to respecting what other people represent. Blackbeard is not chaotic because he respects the players too much. He recruits people with big reputations. He works for Whitebeard and says the he respected him because he was strong. Where as Doffy recruits crazy kids who come to him strapped with explosives or anyone who reminds him of himself.
No I'm not saying this. They were agents of the law in the sense that the warlord system was aligned with the world government but they never identified themselves in terms of motivations as being people who felt deeply that they were responsible for the enforcement of the law. Actually I would say that not even all marines are shown as feeling this way although many do. Maybe when I was saying agent of the law I was using a sort of shorthand to say that they were people who felt that the their job as people who were supposed to uphold the law meant that felt a deep responsibility for upholding the laws. I'm sorry for that if I caused some sort of confusion by not explaining myself properly.
At this point I don't feel that we know enough about the characters of the world nobles or know enough about what they know to make a judgement. But since they are not presented as typical "hero" or "antagonist" characters I feel that it doesn't matter to much either way. This alignment system isn't really some in depth psychological system more a sort of rough shorthand that acts a guide of how to play a character. A guide that can often be ignored as well. I think that it is important to remember that and not make the mistake of taking things too seriously.
What is a risk or not in the One Piece world is open to interpretation as it follows dramatic rules rather than being underpinned by real world statistical data. The way it is presented dramatically is that Blackbeard does not really appear to be at risk when he acts.
Risk is relative. A 60/40 bet in your favour is way safer than a risk that you can't even guess the odds of. Playing the odds is much safer than taking on a completely unknown risk. I would say that it's quite neutral sort of behaviour to bet and take risks when the odds are in your favour.
He waited a long time for the fruit he wanted but what if he never found it? That's interesting what if. Maybe he could predict this fruit would end up in a certain place due to his knowledge. Maybe he would have moved after finding another fruit. It could even be that he would never do anything at all if that fruit never turned up. But we can't really say since the story and character was only written then one way. We can say that with that fruit he didn't really fear Ace or escaping from Whitebeard. Likewise with the crew he collected and the state of the battle at marineford he felt it was time to act although it was maybe still harder for him that he expected. What this tells us about his personality and how it's relevant is up for us to think about I guess.
Well lying itself is not chaotic. The reason why you lie tells you if you are chaotic. Whitebeard was lying to save his own skin or buy time which is totally not lawful or chaotic. Lying to antagonise someone for his own vanity would be chaotic for sure but he didn't do that. He also made clear that he used to respect Whitebeard because he was strong but now he was "past it" so didn't respect him. Totally not lawful or chaotic. If he said he never respected Whitebeard and only joined up with him because it was the only way to stay relatively free that would be chaotic.
Doflamingo is neutral. He is like Blackbeard in that he straight up destroys things, and basically says fuck it when things aren't going his way, but you can't deny that he ran a very tight ship. The entire damn arc is about exposing his very secretive society in Dressrossa and his black market. If Doflamingo was Chaotic, why rule a kingdom? Why maintain any order at all? Just because he can kill without benefit does not make him Chaotic, you can't ignore the very manipulative side of him too.
I said this as well yes. Evil is murdering people and creating mayhem in general we both seem to agree on this I think unless I am missing something. Maybe you would like to talk about this some more in much greater detail if I am mistaken on what you are thinking so I can correct you possibly
Not really but I comment on this else where.
A chaotic character would be a character who's character is disorganised maybe you mean something else I don't really get what you are saying here.
Why wouldn't chaotic characters maintain orders or follow them if it suited them? If you gave yourself an order that made sense for you why wouldn't you maintain it or follow it? I don't really understand this.
Anything beyond this is probably just our subjective opinions, so I guess we can just agree to disagree?
Sure, whatevs.
Rebel Leader
THE POWER OF BUTTERSCOTCH BOTTOMS
Cloud Strife
Member
Sorry, said I'd stop but...I think we can reach an understanding.
cha·os
ˈkāˌäs/
noun
noun: chaos; plural noun: chaoses
complete disorder and confusion.
"snow caused chaos in the region"
synonyms: disorder, disarray, disorganization, confusion, mayhem, bedlam, pandemonium, havoc, turmoil, tumult, commotion, disruption, upheaval, uproar, maelstrom
This is exactly what I'm trying to say. Chaos doesn't necessarily mean people running around slapping fish or whatever you said, and I mentioned this several times. Chaos is the absence of order, disorder.
Show me a panel where Blackbeard says "I respect Whitebeard" versus one that shows him betraying Whitebeard in some form. The latter is more central to his character and motivations.
Also, what do you mean about Doffy? We just established that Chaos doesn't mean crazy, so why are you saying it's so for Doflamingo? Remember he was conditioned by his own crew. I'd say he influences who he picked later on with his ideals, rather than them being "crazy kids" that remind him of himself. What?
I agree. If anything, I have issues with having Dragon up there because we know shit all about the revolutionaries and their true goal. Similarly, we don't know much about Blackbeard's past, but his actions thus far are pretty accurate according to the pic. To each his/her own.
I meant lying in context. What I mean by it is that he lied about giving a shit that he was in Whitebeard's crew. If Blackbeard was neutral, he'd be more systematic like Doflamingo, who weaves in and out.
Doflamingo knows that he can rely on laws to fulfill his goals, hence his whole system in Dressrossa.
Blackbeard does too, but will not look twice at discarding these laws and never respecting them in the first place. He prefers disorder to order whereas Doflamingo can use both to be evil if it suits him.
Blackbeard's entire character has been about amassing power and creating his own age, his own rules, not the rules of Whitebeard or the Marines or anyone else. And judging by his character, this won't be some complex form of underground society like Doflamingo and Dressrossa, but him just blowing the crap out of fools he doesn't like. "I'll swallow everything".
I think I addressed what I've been trying to say, I admit it's all really confusing and I'm not the best at being clear.
cha·os
ˈkāˌäs/
noun
noun: chaos; plural noun: chaoses
complete disorder and confusion.
"snow caused chaos in the region"
synonyms: disorder, disarray, disorganization, confusion, mayhem, bedlam, pandemonium, havoc, turmoil, tumult, commotion, disruption, upheaval, uproar, maelstrom
This is exactly what I'm trying to say. Chaos doesn't necessarily mean people running around slapping fish or whatever you said, and I mentioned this several times. Chaos is the absence of order, disorder.
Blackbeard is Chaotic because he doesn't respect what other people represent (your words). He doesn't respect Whitebeard, he uses him for his power, but that doesn't mean he respects him in the way I see it. And like I said, this doesn't matter, because his actions still constitute him betraying Whitebeard anyway. Coupled with him using the Marines, this makes him Chaotic.
Show me a panel where Blackbeard says "I respect Whitebeard" versus one that shows him betraying Whitebeard in some form. The latter is more central to his character and motivations.
Also, what do you mean about Doffy? We just established that Chaos doesn't mean crazy, so why are you saying it's so for Doflamingo? Remember he was conditioned by his own crew. I'd say he influences who he picked later on with his ideals, rather than them being "crazy kids" that remind him of himself. What?
I agree. If anything, I have issues with having Dragon up there because we know shit all about the revolutionaries and their true goal. Similarly, we don't know much about Blackbeard's past, but his actions thus far are pretty accurate according to the pic. To each his/her own.
But how does this risk argument factor into Blackbeard being Chaotic or Neutral? That was my main issue. Whether Blackbeard takes risks or not, he still did what he did. He still abused Whitebeard's crew and the Marines to get what he wanted.
Well we know from his actions what his personality is. What we don't know is how he got that personality in the first place.
I meant lying in context. What I mean by it is that he lied about giving a shit that he was in Whitebeard's crew. If Blackbeard was neutral, he'd be more systematic like Doflamingo, who weaves in and out.
Doflamingo knows that he can rely on laws to fulfill his goals, hence his whole system in Dressrossa.
Blackbeard does too, but will not look twice at discarding these laws and never respecting them in the first place. He prefers disorder to order whereas Doflamingo can use both to be evil if it suits him.
I don't mean literally following orders and maintaining them. I mean it systematically. Blackbeard obviously followed the rules in WB's crew and when he was with the Marines. But the difference is that he doesn't care about those rules nor does he use them preferably over disorderly conduct.
Blackbeard's entire character has been about amassing power and creating his own age, his own rules, not the rules of Whitebeard or the Marines or anyone else. And judging by his character, this won't be some complex form of underground society like Doflamingo and Dressrossa, but him just blowing the crap out of fools he doesn't like. "I'll swallow everything".
I think I addressed what I've been trying to say, I admit it's all really confusing and I'm not the best at being clear.
igordennis
Member
Cloud Strife
Member
Yeah, and I agree it will only work (debatable) once the series has ended.
But I agree with that pic, hence the discussion!
Imperial Bishop
Banned
D&D alignments don't work very well with most major One Piece characters. It's short-sighted to try and fit in someone like Luffy, Doffy or Blackbeard because they can tip-toe between neutral and chaotic depending on the situation.
Volume 78 came out in Japan. Here's some SBS info:
Buggy can pass through the Bird Cage (take that Doffy!)
It's confirmed that the kid Dorry in Law's flashback was in fact X Drake (told you so!)
Crocodile is seen on a newspaper Corazon is reading.
There's other bits, most of them jokes (which ArlongPark takes too seriously as "sexist garbage waaaah").
Buggy can pass through the Bird Cage (take that Doffy!)
It's confirmed that the kid Dorry in Law's flashback was in fact X Drake (told you so!)
Crocodile is seen on a newspaper Corazon is reading.
There's other bits, most of them jokes (which ArlongPark takes too seriously as "sexist garbage waaaah").
NHarmonic.
Member
Oda spills some shit sometimes. Not gonna lie.
Sometimes.
But the joke was someone asking "Why do the women have large breasts" and he replies "I draw the dreams of young boys"
That's obviously meant to be humorous.
igordennis
Member
I dont know. The jokes themselves arent really offensive or harmful but they clearly come from a sexist world of view when you look at the women representation of OP and comments like that SBS about a "Man's Romance" or whatever it was. But i agree generally, not my type of humour either.
Aaronrules380
Member
Luffy is definitely chaotic. You could argue about him being chaotic neutral or chaotic good, but by D&D definitions Luffy is very clearly a chaotic character who values freedom above pretty much all else
While we've had the sexism debate countless times, I think at this point it's more of an art question: Why do all of the women look the same? There's like, one body type and two faces. You can either be Nami or Robin, basically. You can draw "boy's dreams" and have all the women be incredibly sexy, but they should at least look kind of different.
LonelyGreyWolf
Banned
Oda said that drawing women was the hardest thing for him to draw (and the second most time-consuming, mostly because of their hair and the techniques used). Maybe he just find it hard to come up with female body types.
Bots are better than you
Banned
It appears that this only appears to "beautiful women" in OP ... it's either that type, or "unique" women (many times a little bit ugly, too)...
There are enough examples for that ... Ms. Merry Christmas, Miss Monday, Boa Marigold, Boa Sandersonia, the amazon Aphelandra (if you count her giant height), Alvida (pre-DF)
He can be creative, he just needs to adapt that creativity to the "beautiful" ones, too! ^^
Quoting what others have said earlier is also relevant, but also remember that Oda's art style is very heavily based off of western cartoon art, mostly that of Disney, Warner Brothers and other classic cartoons. The female design Ive always felt was really similar to those cartoons, when the female characters in cartoons were more hourglass shaped with big asses and big breassts.
I also think it can't be stated enough that Oda probably just like boobs a lot. Artists will generally draw what they want to draw, and hey, Oda might just like boobies.
Cloud Strife
Member
I think you have been perfectly clear and just want to say that i agree with you
Much appreciated!
gundamkyoukai
Member
Because it easier for him to draw .
Look at amazon lily oda did a lot of different type of females characters .
But when your looking to get out chapter every week every bit of saving time helps i guess.
Women representation in OP is find it's only because they are less of them that it stand out more compare to the male characters .
There are a lot of male characters that get treat the same way .
Imperial Bishop
Banned
It's not like most manga artists don't draw their characters based on a general deign template.
Most artists find it easier to fall back on a handful of body type designs for the majority of their characters. This is very common in comics and animation.
Most artists find it easier to fall back on a handful of body type designs for the majority of their characters. This is very common in comics and animation.
igordennis
Member
Yes, but what is annoying is that at the beggining the template was not bad and the women design were not ridiculous and the Nami face was not so widespread since there were fewer characters. Oda's art has improved tremendously in several ways since then but i wish he hadnt changed the way he designed women to the disappointing template he apparently uses now.
But this is really my biggest pet pieve with OP. And really just because it could be so much better and more varied. Oda has shown he can do it but he just doesnt want to?
Posts like this piss me off tbh - dude dedicates his whole life to the Manga sacrificing sleep, his wife and kids...if he feels more comfortable and satisfied using with the basic design he has, thats his right and recreation. No matter what he decides on or uses you cant satisfy everybody... the OP Lore and characters created are already nuts at this point and he has to keep the story going, i dont think he wants to use the 3-4 hours of sleep he gets on reinventing how he designs women.
The basic design and physical appearance strong normal sized dudes is the same as well - Ace, Sabo, Law, Luffy etc.
igordennis
Member
Yes, i agree with you, dont know why you are pissed off. He has the right to make the manga however he wants and i know exactly how much work he puts in it. But as much as i respect him and like OP, this doesnt prevent us from criticizing certain aspects of it. As long as the criticism is constructive, well argued and isnt made just to put down his work but actually make it even better, it gets an ok in my book. Apparently not on yours but i would suggest you to not let posts on the internet upset you, its all just opinions in the end
I don't have anything against constructive criticism, I just don't like people acting as if it's just a switch he has to turn on or off to design female characters that you would appreciate.
Of course you can improve everything overtime, but at the end of the day resources are limited and I don't think it is a easy as you say to implement an new design style or even create a bunch of new females in his current drawing pipeline.
Oda already came up with so many great looking characters and keeps introducing new ones in a ridiculous pace - alone in Dresserora we had a bunch of new detailed named characters, with all the breaks he already had to take to get shit done I feel it's unfair to downplay the effort for essential design changes.
So again.. I understand the critism to the design and why you would hope for an improvement or change in that department, but with regards to his workload and motivation its probably not something that can be easily fixed. No hard feelings.
Of course you can improve everything overtime, but at the end of the day resources are limited and I don't think it is a easy as you say to implement an new design style or even create a bunch of new females in his current drawing pipeline.
Oda already came up with so many great looking characters and keeps introducing new ones in a ridiculous pace - alone in Dresserora we had a bunch of new detailed named characters, with all the breaks he already had to take to get shit done I feel it's unfair to downplay the effort for essential design changes.
So again.. I understand the critism to the design and why you would hope for an improvement or change in that department, but with regards to his workload and motivation its probably not something that can be easily fixed. No hard feelings.
igordennis
Member
Oh okay its the difficulty of making such a change that you disagreed. I guess i made it seem easy but you are right its very hard at this point to change those things when hes probably already overwhelmed with other stuff. But not impossible, so who knows one day if he feels like it.
pelicansurf
Needs a Holiday on Gallifrey
"The better designed females aren't doing enough!"
Neoriceisgood
Member
Robin's role in OP in a nutshell.
Cloud Strife
Member
Hype for this week's chapter rising. Think we'll see Kaido?
I don't know, but I really don't know what exactly happens now.
Haha, it's true. I'm the guiltiest. But I think that's because this is a one piece community and a general love of the series is assumed. It's a place to air complaints without someone going "ha, I told you so, that series sucks!'
That said, I feel like my issues have become more noticable since the timeskip. Lots of things I've loved, but the troubling aspects have become more apparent.
Cloud Strife
Member
Definitely some world reactions.
When all is said and done I think Luffy and Law will head out with Sabo and the revolutionary ship. Doubt they will stick around long with the whole world now aware of what they have done.
Nah, I think Jinbei is going to show up and they'll go chasing after the Sunny. The timing of the ending of his cover story arc and the ending of the Dressrosa arc is just too perfect. It'd allow Oda to reunite the entire crew at once instead of having two reunions.
Cloud Strife
Member
I think it's still a little early for Jinbei to return but I'm happy to be wrong.
He said he had things to take care of that I don't think the cover story covered.
Still, maybe he has to take up things with Big Mom after what happened on Fishman Island? He worked under her so that could bring him back into the story sooner than later.
Frozenprince
Banned
We've had enough reaction shots, it's time to get the plot moving while mixing in some reactions along the way. Another chapter that's just jaws agape is stringing it on more (so I guess that's likely what's happening).
Pegosaurus
Banned
rereading the end of punk hazard up to the current chapter
in chapter 692, pg 11, is that possibly Rob Lucci in the bottom middle panel?
Looks like he might have joined a pirate crew
in chapter 692, pg 11, is that possibly Rob Lucci in the bottom middle panel?
Looks like he might have joined a pirate crew
MetroidPrimeRib
Banned
It certainly looks like him. When the silhouette is shown later he's also drinking alcohol out of a glass, something Lucci also did.
Well, that could be Toei fucking up, but it certainly does not look like LucciThe portrait is clearer in the anime, for what that's worth.
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