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[MetroidPrimeRib]

Oda is pretty good at planning things out but no one is good enough to plan out something in it's entirety that will run for 20+ years from the beginning. For example I am sure Oda didn't plan on Haki being such a big thing from the beginning, as the first real signs we see are Skypeia (outside of the retooling of the first chapter Shanks Conqueror's Haki scene) and it doesn't make much sense why CP9 was not trained in Haki if they are supposed to be assassins.

 

[Kornflayx]

If that Sakazuki = sake cup bit was planned beforehand, that's kinda insane. He had to give an Admiral that specific name (and have that Admiral kill Ace) so that Sabo could get his memories back by reading his name.

I don't want to even think about the thought process that went into that, IF this was planned.

 

[LonelyGreyWolf]

Apparently, not just Ace, but the name "Sakazuki" is what also contributed to Sabo remembering everything.

https://www.reddit.com/r/OnePiece/comments/3dogo4/something_i_think_people_are_missing_from_the/

I need to learn Japanese.

That's really cool, but unlike the people in that comment section, I really doubt that was planned long ahead, as in: Oda named him Sakazuki purely for the reason that he would one day kill Ace and that would one day be read by Sabo and give him his memories back.

 

[Cloud Strife]

Apparently, not just Ace, but the name "Sakazuki" is what also contributed to Sabo remembering everything.

https://www.reddit.com/r/OnePiece/comments/3dogo4/something_i_think_people_are_missing_from_the/

I need to learn Japanese.

Daaaaaaaaamn.

 

[Squishy3]

One Piece Party is a dumb guilty pleasure.

 

[Dugna]

yeah CP9 not having Haki is the one thing I don't like about it's introduction, I mean even some of the normal pirates in sabaody have it i think. So CP9 being undefeated for so long just seems weird.

 

[BatDan]

I don't know, I could see Lucci's Rokuogan as a form of Haki.

 

[Dugna]

I don't know, I could see Lucci's Rokuogan as a form of Haki.

so you think his physical training actually manifested in something like Haki? Still it doesn't make sense the other members didn't know any haki, I mean they were a branch of govt basically with Enies Lobby.

 

[Imperial Bishop]

Oda is pretty good at planning things out but no one is good enough to plan out something in it's entirety that will run for 20+ years from the beginning. For example I am sure Oda didn't plan on Haki being such a big thing from the beginning, as the first real signs we see are Skypeia (outside of the retooling of the first chapter Shanks Conqueror's Haki scene) and it doesn't make much sense why CP9 was not trained in Haki if they are supposed to be assassins.

yeah CP9 not having Haki is the one thing I don't like about it's introduction, I mean even some of the normal pirates in sabaody have it i think. So CP9 being undefeated for so long just seems weird.

The concept of a supernatural ability that would become 'haki' was always going to be a thing that Oda had an idea for.
Whether it would have become a big deal as it is now is up in the air, but I believe the blueprint was always there

As for CP9, I think their organization only adhered to a different style of martial arts training or they weren't at a status in the WG where they could be allowed to train in controlling Haki.
At least that's my theory.

 

[B-Dubs]

The concept of a supernatural ability that would become 'haki' was always going to be a thing that Oda had an idea for.
Whether it would have become a big deal as it is now is up in the air, but I believe the blueprint was always there

As for CP9, I think their organization only adhered to a different style of martial arts training or they weren't at a status in the WG where they could be allowed to train in controlling Haki.
At least that's my theory.

It could also be that they didn't really need Haki to do their jobs so no one bothered to train them in it. They're spies and assassins, neither one you really need haki for. Besides, Luffy had to get insanely strong before he was able to start using it, Lucci and the others weren't exactly at that level when we last saw them.

 

[MetroidPrimeRib]

I can't think of any situation for a Spy/Assassin where Haki would not have made them more efficient, unless the WG always suspected they would turn heel, but then why bother training them anyway?

Remember that being able to use Haki is a requirement to become a Vice Admiral, so why not Cipher Pol?

 

[B-Dubs]

I can't think of any situation for a Spy/Assassin where Haki would not have made them more efficient, unless the WG always suspected they would turn heel, but then why bother training them anyway?

Remember that being able to use Haki is a requirement to become a Vice Admiral, so why not Cipher Pol?

How would it really help them though? Outside of straight up fighting, which they shouldn't be doing much of in the first place, it's not really something that would be too useful for them. Besides, they don't really come off as Vice Admiral tier.

They needed to be strong enough to do their jobs, but not strong enough to do any damage to the guys that gave them the jobs. There's no reason to give them more power than they need, these guys aren't going after Warlords--they're spies.

 

[MetroidPrimeRib]

How would it really help them though? Outside of straight up fighting, which they shouldn't be doing much of in the first place, it's not really something that would be too useful for them. Besides, they don't really come off as Vice Admiral tier.

They needed to be strong enough to do their jobs, but not strong enough to do any damage to the guys that gave them the jobs. There's no reason to give them more power than they need, these guys aren't going after Warlords--they're spies.

I imagine Observation Haki would be extremely useful.

 

[B-Dubs]

I imagine Observation Haki would be extremely useful.

That's about all I could think of too, but it also seems far from essential. Like, it's be nice to have in some situations but they don't really need it to do their job.

 

[More Fun To Compute]

I don't know, I could see Lucci's Rokuogan as a form of Haki.

It's just an extreme form of the air manipulation martial arts techniques they use. Jinbe does the equivalent with Fishman Karate creating a spear of water although Jinbe is on another level to Lucci.

 

[Cloud Strife]

Yeah, it's definitely a tick against Oda imho that logical characters like CP9 would have Haki. You can spin it however you want, like they never needed it or their abilities were enough, but someone like Lucci or Corocodile PTS should have known or used Haki in some form.

No excuse for them not having it.

 

[More Fun To Compute]

Haki training is still supposed to very rare but in terms of who should of known about it existing early then Buggy and Arlong should both have known about it. But there are quirks like the women of Amazon Lilly take to learning very well but there are no Fishmen or Giants who are confirmed as using it. Even Jinbe or Fisher Tiger. I think that people dismiss a character like Rebecca too easily but she is probably the youngest character in the manga to have mastered using Haki in fighting. CP9 were younger than most of the characters who were experienced enough to use it I think.

 

[Squishy3]

to be fair armament haki wasn't introduced until garp showed up after enies lobby and we learned nami has been a proficient armament haki user ever since she met luffy

 

[Rebel Leader]

I not having haki is ok, Rayleigh has said that most people do not notice it or fail to awaken it.
Iirc

 

[360pages]

He could always Retcon CP9 skills into a different type of Haki, but honestly it was probably not something he really thought about at the start.

Haki in a lot of ways is better than having a devil fruit ability, so people like the CP9 not knowing at least the basic forms of it seem silly.

 

[Rebel Leader]

to be fair armament haki wasn't introduced until garp showed up after enies lobby and we learned nami has been a proficient armament haki user ever since she met luffy

Didn't oda say that nami hitting luffy was just a gag?

He could always Retcon CP9 skills into a different type of Haki, but honestly it was probably not something he really thought about at the start.

Haki in a lot of ways is better than having a devil fruit ability, so people like the CP9 not knowing at least the basic forms of it seem silly.

There is no need to retcon CP 9 when thye could just have failed at awakening it.

They would have no reason to say that they know about haki to an opponent who doesn't use it.

 

[B-Dubs]

Didn't oda say that nami hitting luffy was just a gag?

Yes. It's always been a comedy thing.

He could always Retcon CP9 skills into a different type of Haki, but honestly it was probably not something he really thought about at the start.

Haki in a lot of ways is better than having a devil fruit ability, so people like the CP9 not knowing at least the basic forms of it seem silly.

Considering how rare Haki is, and how strong you have to be to unlock it, I'm not too bothered by them not having it.

 

[Grexeno]

I'm sorry, but there is simply no answer as to why CP9 does not have Haki other than simply Oda not having thought of it yet. In a world with Haki and Logias, the government's top assassin squad, so powerful physically and politically that their existence must be hidden, there is no way they wouldn't have Haki.

 

[whatsinaname]

to be fair armament haki wasn't introduced until garp showed up after enies lobby and we learned nami has been a proficient armament haki user ever since she met luffy

Eh? Where is this from?

 

[NHarmonic.]

I'm sorry, but there is simply no answer as to why CP9 does not have Haki other than simply Oda not having thought of it yet. In a world with Haki and Logias, the government's top assassin squad, so powerful physically and politically that their existence must be hidden, there is no way they wouldn't have Haki.

Anyone can "have" or "train" in haki? Isn't it kinda special and only some are able to awaken it?

 

[B-Dubs]

Anyone can "have" or "train" in haki? Isn't it kinda special and only some are able to awaken it?

Think so, I seem to remember someone saying that not everyone can learn to use it.

 

[Grexeno]

Anyone can "have" or "train" in haki? Isn't it kinda special and only some are able to awaken it?

That's only Conqueror's haki.

 

[RomanceDawn]

Eh? Where is this from?

I think he's only joking but at some point Oda is going to come 100% clean with why Nami hurts Luffy. It's been Sanji before as well, Chopper too and maybe Usopp.

It's not just gags either. Garp gave us the slightest hint at what it was. Oda confirmed it wasn't Haki. An entire chapter was partially named after it.

Love.

Post Enies Lobby, Garp made at visit to the crew. He struck Luffy and everyone questioned what happened. Garp explained "There's no defense against a fist of love." The chapter was titled Fist Of Love. Years later post time skip I think, someone asked in the SBS what did Garp strike Luffy with, Haki or Love? Oda simply said Love.

Even the characters in the story seem to look at Luffy getting bruised up by Nami as a gag, they don't question it so neither should we. I'm certain it will be explained sometime way down the line with Vegapunk(most likely) that for what ever reason, a fruit users natural defenses are useless against someone who truly loves them. I can't even fathom the explanation beyond something weird like the Devil Spirit inside is no match for Love, hahaha.

It's one of those things that such an obvious gag but will ultimately manifest it's self into a real plot point.

 

[Imperial Bishop]

Yeah, it's definitely a tick against Oda imho that logical characters like CP9 would have Haki. You can spin it however you want, like they never needed it or their abilities were enough, but someone like Lucci or Corocodile PTS should have known or used Haki in some form.

No excuse for them not having it.

Crocodile had his pride broken by Whitebeard and went back to settle down in paradise to lick his wounds. His ambition was broken, so he didn't have a drive to learn haki and reach for that hurdle again.

He probably decided to focus on honing his devil fruit ability and control a militarized country in the tamest part of the Grand Line far from the Emperors.

 

[Grexeno]

Crocodile had his pride broken by Whitebeard and went back to settle down in paradise to lick his wounds. His ambition was broken, so he didn't have a drive to learn haki and reach for that hurdle again.

He probably decided to focus on honing his devil fruit ability and control a militarized country in the tamest part of the Grand Line far from the Emperors.

There is no way Crocodile gets to Whitebeard without Haki in the first place.

 

[Imperial Bishop]

I think he's only joking but at some point Oda is going to come 100% clean with why Nami hurts Luffy. It's been Sanji before as well, Chopper too and maybe Usopp.

It's not just gags either. Garp gave us the slightest hint at what it was. Oda confirmed it wasn't Haki. An entire chapter was partially named after it.

Love.

Post Enies Lobby, Garp made at visit to the crew. He struck Luffy and everyone questioned what happened. Garp explained "There's no defense against a fist of love." The chapter was titled Fist Of Love. Years later post time skip I think, someone asked in the SBS what did Garp strike Luffy with, Haki or Love? Oda simply said Love.

Even the characters in the story seem to look at Luffy getting bruised up by Nami as a gag, they don't question it so neither should we. I'm certain it will be explained sometime way down the line with Vegapunk(most likely) that for what ever reason, a fruit users natural defenses are useless against someone who truly loves them. I can't even fathom the explanation beyond something weird like the Devil Spirit inside is no match for Love, hahaha.

It's one of those things that such an obvious gag but will ultimately manifest it's self into a real plot point.

I think this was brought up in that Haki 2 Ki thread I linked a while ago. Probably somehow related to "emotion" and "ki".
I don't think it will addressed as anything more than a gag.

There is no way Crocodile gets to Whitebeard without Haki in the first place.

He did, and Whitebeard slaughtered him.
Just like Ace, he got too cocky and tried to bite more than he could chew.

 

[RomanceDawn]

I think this was brought up in that Haki 2 Ki thread I linked a while ago. Probably somehow related to "emotion" and "ki".
I don't think it will addressed as anything more than a gag.

I think what you just said there immediately takes it out of gag territory. It will always continue to be used for gags sure but it's already been addressed as something more and knowing Oda, he'll expand on it in a meaningful way, be it a big deal or not.

Like infamous nose bleeds.

 

[Cloud Strife]

Crocodile had his pride broken by Whitebeard and went back to settle down in paradise to lick his wounds. His ambition was broken, so he didn't have a drive to learn haki and reach for that hurdle again.

He probably decided to focus on honing his devil fruit ability and control a militarized country in the tamest part of the Grand Line far from the Emperors.

You can rationalize it however you want, and your post does make sense given what Pekoms said:

Whitebeard obviously spared the guy, because he wasn't going anywhere without Haki in the New World. If the whole Awakening Devil Fruit thing can be some sort of Haki-counter remains to be seen, but if it turns out that's the case then it would be easier to swallow. Crocodile was turning buildings to sand and shit just like Doffy was turning things to String.

As it stands though, given the power levels and expectations of every single other warlord we have seen, Crocodile should have had a knowledge of Haki and its usage seeing as how even its basic forms (Armament and Observation) are being used left right and center by people below Crocodile's former title.

 

[Cloud Strife]

Think so, I seem to remember someone saying that not everyone can learn to use it.

In regards to the marines, everyone who is Vice-Admiral or higher can use Haki.

CP9 and Croc-boy were definitely Vice-Admiral level or higher (Garp is technically Vice-Admiral, just like Bastille >.>) in their respective arcs.

 

[RomanceDawn]

I hope it turns out Croc is one of those people who could just not draw out his own Haki. I want to see a high profile character who has struggled with that aspect in their life.

 

[B-Dubs]

In regards to the marines, everyone who is Vice-Admiral or higher can use Haki.

CP9 and Croc-boy were definitely Vice-Admiral level or higher (Garp is technically Vice-Admiral, just like Bastille >.>) in their respective arcs.

I don't think we could say Croc and CP9 were that level, we haven't seen the vice admirals do much. Also keep in mind certain powers, like logia fruit, can mess with match ups. A logia power can turn a scrub into a mid-tier or upper-mid-tier fighter in an instant, for example Enel wouldn't have been nearly as strong without his fruit. Also Ace burned his way through the first half of the grand line with just his fruit power until he met real haki users. Abilities mess with our perceptions of strength too much in this series to have definitive power levels.

 

[Cloud Strife]

I hope it turns out Croc is one of those people who could just not draw out his own Haki. I want to see a high profile character who has struggled with that aspect in their life.

I would love for it to be this, but Oda has gone too overboard with the amount of Haki users so it would be pretty silly (and convenient since Crocodile was an early villain) to be this.

 

[B-Dubs]

I would love for it to be this, but Oda has gone too overboard with the amount of Haki users so it would be pretty silly (and convenient since Crocodile was an early villain) to be this.

Well keep in mind that this is the new world, anyone without haki is going to get wrecked so anyone half-decent we meet is going to have it.

 

[Cloud Strife]

Well keep in mind that this is the new world, anyone without haki is going to get wrecked so anyone half-decent we meet is going to have it.

Meaning Crocodile now magically has it since he's currently in the New World? (Same with CP9 if the silhouettes turn out to be true).

 

[B-Dubs]

Meaning Crocodile now magically has it since he's currently in the New World? (Same with CP9 if the silhouettes turn out to be true).

Dude could have learned it, he has had two years. I don't know. Remember that he was in the New World before and got his ass kicked out of it, so he'd know what he needs. For him, even a little haki would be enough to wreck low- and mid-tier scrubs. Keep in mind Luffy and the crew aren't the only ones who got a timeskip, everyone else had a chance to level up as well.

 

[Cloud Strife]

Dude could have learned it, he has had two years. I don't know. Remember that he was in the New World before and got his ass kicked out of it, so he'd know what he needs. For him, even a little haki would be enough to wreck low- and mid-tier scrubs. Keep in mind Luffy and the crew aren't the only ones who got a timeskip, everyone else had a chance to level up as well.

That was my point. He was in the New World before. He didn't apply anything he learned to defeat Luffy in Alabasta? Was he not fighting at his full power?

What about Moria? He made it pretty far into the New World to face off against Kaido. Why didn't he use Haki?

My emphasis isn't really on Crocodile here, and how strong he's gotten in the last two years. The whole point is that some characters should have had, at the very least, a basic level of Haki given their current/former positions and what we know about them.

 

[Frozenprince]

I mean Oda has explained all the Croc stuff already as "I didn't think I'd bring him back or make him as important and I should have given him a higher bounty and x things to make that make more sense" more or less.

Oda didn't come up with Haki until a few years ago. Anybody who thinks he planned it out earlier than the War of the Best arc is fooling themselves.

 

[Chariot]

Crocodile was held back because he was busy in the earlier parts of thd Grandline building an organisation and fooling Alabasta. He maybe overestimated his powers too until Ruffy came along. My guess is that he never thought that he need it and got a Rocky montage in Impel Down.

 

[Man God]

Another possible way to look at it; Oda only started drawing Haki after it became a thing in the series and that it was always there, just no one we saw through the eyes of could see it manifest.

 

[More Fun To Compute]

Crocodile just isn't that strong of a character. A few years ago people talking about One Piece character power were all logia this logia that why doesn't x have logia how could y lose with logia. Haki at the time was great because it ended this sort of logia supremacy discussion and explained why a character like Crocodile wasn't already king of the world despite being not that big of player.

I think that a lot of the warlords are just pirates who have a grudge against the yonko and are willing to fight with the marines. It's not an exact power level thing they just have to seem useful.

Haki is obviously a very strong fighting style if only for plot reasons since Luffy is the master of it but not everyone in the manga is trained personally by Garp and Rayleigh. In the future Oda should go into more detail on other abilities and have some strong armament Haki user lose to someone with some other type of ability. One problem with that currently is that people always assume that the winner is secretly using Haki.

Oda didn't come up with Haki until a few years ago. Anybody who thinks he planned it out earlier than the War of the Best arc is fooling themselves.

When he combined the powers together and and called them Haki was pretty late. But Conqueror aura was in the manga fairly early. And mantra was obviously in with skypia. Armament is probably the latest and most poorly thought out one and was added for Sabaody to counter logia. Personally I think that armament was a mistake. It's nothing but trash.

 

[Rebel Leader]

Rayleigh on haki:

---
I do hope we find someone who made it big without haki

 

[Chariot]

Luffy not caring at all what is explained to him cracks me up everytime.

 

[LonelyGreyWolf]

I do hope we find someone who made it big without haki

Whitebeard? The worlds most powerful man didn't use haki iirc.

 

[Rebel Leader]

Crocodile made it tony be new world...

But so did buggy

 

[Rebel Leader]

Whitebeard? The worlds most powerful man didn't use haki iirc.

He had haki

When he stabbed akoji one of his man thought he used haki

He also has conquer haki this was attempted when he tried to prevent ace from being killed on the scaffold and noted after luffy used his