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One Piece Manga |OT| ZEHAHAHAHA! The Name of this Age is Blackbeard!
- Thread starter TheGreatDirector
- Start date
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LonelyGreyWolf
Banned
Holy shit Kave_Man, stop acting like such a douche to this guy. Chill the hell out.
Kreed; I definitely see your angle. It's impossible to prove your point right or wrong. Personally I'm a little bit torn, but I believe in your hypothesis more and deem it very likely. Not that it's a big issue worth debating over anyway.
Kreed; I definitely see your angle. It's impossible to prove your point right or wrong. Personally I'm a little bit torn, but I believe in your hypothesis more and deem it very likely. Not that it's a big issue worth debating over anyway.
It is not impossible. Someone could ask Oda about it.
I think it isn't too much of a stretch to believe a 3rd "brother" was planned at the time when Ace was designed. But even if a third brother was planned from that time we can't say the tattoo was initially designed to refer to his name though instead of just being a silly joke.
I feel like the tattoo is enough to prove that but this seems like the only One Piece community I've been to that believes the S on his tattoo could stand for anything.
I'll ask what would it take to convince you it's not a retcon as you believe?
I'll stop here since it seems someone thinks I'm close to blows with you. If you don't feel like responding that's fine, I won't bring it up again after this message.
whatsinaname
Member
Just caught up on everything. That was a great arc and reads very well all collected together. (Like most of One Piece). Some great new characters. Jinbe's journey was hilarious too.
And I hope we get to find out what happened to the other four idiots soon.
And I hope we get to find out what happened to the other four idiots soon.
As others have chimed in on, there really isn't a way to prove that the connection between Sabo and Ace's tattoo isn't a retcon outside of a quote from Oda himself. The whole basis for my feelings of Sabo being a retcon is the fact that there are no story details or foreshadowing about his existence prior to the three sake cups which was well into Ace's death story line except for the connection made with Ace's tattoo. Considering Oda is someone who loves foreshadowing (from Garp, to Brooke and Laboon, to even the Elbaf Giants) and the fact that One Piece has been running for years, it makes Sabo really stand out. Especially when we think back to Garp's reveal as Luffy's grandfather. This would have been a perfect time for Oda to subtly mention a dead brother considering he even tossed out Dragon being Luffy's father during this part of the story. Of course Oda has written a story reason after the fact as to why Garp didn't mention Sabo but all this does is further support the idea of Sabo being an after thought. From the Amnesia story line to Sabo's backstory, these are all story details meant to explain Sabo's absence from the story for years until after Ace's death.
As for the tattoo, my feelings are from the tattoo's introduction. Up until the Sabo story line, there was never a "explanation" for the tattoo misspelling. And that's because there wasn't a need for it. When the average reader saw the tattoo, the typical reaction was along the lines of "Haha, the tattoo artist must have messed up Ace's name while making his tattoo/the tattoo artist thought Ace's name was spelled Asce". It was a visual gag, and there was nothing more needed to be explained to the audience for years, which leads me to believe that was Oda's original intent. Had this tattoo had any sort of significance years before Oda introduced Sabo, then there are absolutely no story reasons why he couldn't have hinted at the tattoo having more meaning. Even something as simple as...
"Hey Ace, why is that S crossed out on your tattoo? Did you forget how to spell your own name?"
"The S is to remember someone I lost a long time ago"
...would have gone a LONG way story wise.
Regardless, as others have also said, retcon or not, it doesn't really affect the story outside of my feelings that Ace's death wasn't originally planned and that Oda created Sabo because he still needed a big brother character to complete Luffy's story.
There really is no good way to tell if Sabo is retcon but I'd have to side on it not being retcon.
Oda is known to think these things through. We had no clue that Luffy had a brother at all until Ace was introduced.
The tattoo also seems to indicate that Oda had it planned but by no means completely convincing. I just think that knowing Oda's style and thinking ahead, combined with how central Sabo seems to be to the upcoming story, I think he was planned (even if not completely thought out).
Oda is known to think these things through. We had no clue that Luffy had a brother at all until Ace was introduced.
The tattoo also seems to indicate that Oda had it planned but by no means completely convincing. I just think that knowing Oda's style and thinking ahead, combined with how central Sabo seems to be to the upcoming story, I think he was planned (even if not completely thought out).
I mean, here's the thing. If we can't exactly tell if it's a retcon or not, then there's either one of two things going on here:
1. He's really good at planning things out in advance
OR
2. He's really good at adding in new elements and making it look like it was part of the plan all along.
Both of which are good storytelling. I think what's actually going on is that he has a plan in mind, but he's leaving it loose. He has a ton of concepts floating around all the time, and whenever he has one but he's not sure how to implement it, he leaves the story open enough that he could add it in later. The S in Ace's tattoo could have been simply cosmetic or he thought it'd be cool if there was a backstory there. Once he had other elements in place, he saw a spot where he could flesh out that backstory a bit and add a new character.
For example, I'm almost positive I saw an SBS or interview where Oda said he came up with the Supernovas on a whim. With that in mind, all of them have been really well integrated to the plot and haven't served to detract from the ending he clearly has in mind. With Oda, I've always viewed it as him having his destination in mind, but not necessarily his journey. He knows he has subjects and characters he wants to touch upon and never leaves the door closed to any one idea. He's really good at balancing a dedication to vision while also indulging his creative side.
1. He's really good at planning things out in advance
OR
2. He's really good at adding in new elements and making it look like it was part of the plan all along.
Both of which are good storytelling. I think what's actually going on is that he has a plan in mind, but he's leaving it loose. He has a ton of concepts floating around all the time, and whenever he has one but he's not sure how to implement it, he leaves the story open enough that he could add it in later. The S in Ace's tattoo could have been simply cosmetic or he thought it'd be cool if there was a backstory there. Once he had other elements in place, he saw a spot where he could flesh out that backstory a bit and add a new character.
For example, I'm almost positive I saw an SBS or interview where Oda said he came up with the Supernovas on a whim. With that in mind, all of them have been really well integrated to the plot and haven't served to detract from the ending he clearly has in mind. With Oda, I've always viewed it as him having his destination in mind, but not necessarily his journey. He knows he has subjects and characters he wants to touch upon and never leaves the door closed to any one idea. He's really good at balancing a dedication to vision while also indulging his creative side.
Imperial Bishop
Banned
It's convenient that Luffy is the kind of guy that doesn't like to talk about his past a lot unless you ask him.
I love the chapter where he tells that Dragon is his father and Garp his grandfather
Cloud Strife
Member
Lmaooo the second panel kills me. What a fanboy.
lol i love bart
I get what your saying, but I think the answer is halfway between both sides of the argument. I highly doubt Oda has been winging plot points as they come along, but at the same time it's also hard to imagine that every singe plot element has been particularly crafted from the beginning (it is possible, but like you say, there are a lot of arguments against it).
Why not both?
Even if Oda did or did not mention another "brother" at some point in the story, it's still possible he had an idea of what Sabo was going to end up becoming, hence things like the tattoo being foreshadowed. This is just my opinion, mind you, as someone who is into writing. I always have a vague idea about what I want done with certain plot elements, but the specifics aren't clear until I get closer. Foreshadowing is still possible with this mindset, but again, it makes it seem like Oda had everything planned from the beginning.
EDIT: Lunar nailed what I was trying to say
Or Robin, I guess? Kind of wish they had touched on that. At least like a "hey, thanks for not bringing it up to Luffy until I was ready".
Whole thing's not a retcon, though: I'm confident that by the time Robin went to join the Revolutionaries, he had already had Sabo's return in mind.
Thought the same. Sets up Dragon's intense glare really well, though.
More Fun To Compute
Member
And Nico Robin is a super intelligent researcher who doesn't share research with anyone and flatly refuses people who freely offer to give her the information she is looking for.
Cloud Strife
Member
Can't wait for the Dragon backstory.
Always wondered about this. I'm curious if it shows Garp and Dragon's relationship given that one is the hero of the marines and the other is its #1 enemy.
Imperial Bishop
Banned
It seems not talking about your relatives to allies runs in the family. And when it's revealed, you just brush it off like it's not a big deal.
That secretive personality has always been a key trait of her character. It comes in handy when we need some exposition on some new situations. Even after Enies Lobby, she just keeps some info to herself because it's not relevant at the moment or she probably doesn't want to ruin the sense of adventure for her crew.
Sabo most likely told her to keep his existence a secret from Luffy. Or maybe she didn't know Sabo was Luffy's older brother.
TheGreatDirector
Banned
I consider Dragon as the World Government's greatest enemy, not necessarily the Marines.
The breakdown would have occurred when Robin was traveling to the current Revolutionary HQ anyway so it's still entirely probable nobody told her Sabo had a connection to Luffy.
LonelyGreyWolf
Banned
Yeah, I most definitely think he'll cover that. One day.
Yeah definitely.
RomanceDawn
Member
Gyababababa! Jump is the World Government and while I can't read the Poneglyphs myself, "Robin" has filled me in.
OK I've got to jump in on this. I'm going to say a lot without giving sources but just bare with me for a bit before I look things up.
I do understand your feelings about Sabo just seemingly appearing out of no where and at the last second along with the tattoo not having any significant meaning. A lot of that is debatable. But Oda has gone on record saying that Ace's role in the story and his death were planned right from the start. He is a big brother-role model trope for the main protagonist and his name is Ace for crying out loud, the Ace of Spades is the card of death. As far back as Enies Lobby I remember people telling me Ace would die and that was long into the general consensus that people in One Piece do not die outside of flashbacks. I certainly didn't believe it even when the above was explained but hindsight is 20/20 I suppose.
So with that being said if Ace's role was planned right from the beginning I would not be surprised at all if the concept of Sabo was intended from the start as well. The whole tattoo misspelling fan theory was so commonly accepted that for years people just took it as fact. Kind of like when people say Oda said he doesn't kill characters when in fact he said he doesn't like to kill characters.
Luffy has been extremely consistent for 17 or so years when it comes to his past or anyone else's in the crew. He almost never brought up anything about himself and barely knows anything about his own crew mates beyond who they are today. Think how surprised the crew was to learn about Ace and then think how surprised they were to learn about Garp. I know you(Kreed) weren't really arguing this particular portion of the topic, just adding it in.
Learning about Sabo was no more surprising or retconning than say the Wind Mill Village that Luffy grew up in was only a tiny piece of this huge Kingdom that even Celestial Dragon's would visit.
I certainly would have loved a character to question the tattoo, but I could say that about a lot of things, Zoro's eye always comes to mind but we'll undoubtedly get that reason in due time. Oda may have wanted to name drop or hint at Sabo a little sooner and maybe like his intent to name drop Shiki the Golden Lion during the meeting between Shanks and White Beard, maybe he felt like it just wasn't necessary even during rare meetings between parties who would know who Sabo is.
Now I know I come off as apologetic for Oda and while everything has not been planned down to the T(he has said as much several times and boy I got some inside stuff that almost blew my mind) he does try to do his best to make things unfold very naturally and gradually.
Haki was very much intended from the start. Or even if Oda used Shank's defining moment and created something out of it he still dropped hints early on for years and years before he came out of the closet with it. But I dare anyone to say that Haki as we know it now is exactly what was intended. The first chapter was our first hint at Color of the King. A little while ago we found out that aside from a lost Usopp scene in Logue Town, Luffy was supposed to visit a fortune teller where he would be told he is marked with the color of a king. That would have also gone a long way in setting us up. Then you have Zoro fighting Daz Dones and the breath of all things. Right after we get Skypiea and mantra. Then of course by Shaboady and Amazon Lily things were started to get a lot clearer.
While Black Beard's Darkness Fruit has a leg up over Haki, the way Oda had Teach describe it makes it seem like Color of Arms wasn't a fully thought out concept. None of Teach's words during that fight contradict anything in the story, it just makes his boasting seem a lot less valid in hind sight. Then of course you have the blackening aspect that only appeared after the time skip. Even that we don't have a good explanation for yet, like what's the difference between the invisible armor and the black stuff? Hardness? Density? Oh and lets not forget Iron Body, the technique made famous by CP9. It seems like such a poor mans Armament in comparison. To be fair though Iron body probably still has it's value because it makes the entire body harden like steel while Haki seems to be just an out side(but way more versatile) coating.
Before Ace died I had already hypothesized that once a fruit user dies the fruit regrows somehow and someone else can obtain the power. It was the only logical explanation. The chapter Ace died I wondered where that flame power was going to go. The chapter White Beard died I wondered where the quake power was going to go. Oda has a way of making promises and living up to them even without directly saying anything of the sort. Luffy always said he could never beat Ace in a fight, not even once, and then White Beard being depicted as some sort of end goal character, it's only logical fans would assume that one way or another Luffy would surpass these people. Before Sabo was introduced I figured the Flame Fruit would be inherited by some sort of friend rival and that would be our flame flame VS gum gum. The chapter the 3 kids drank the sake I just knew Sabo would "die" then return and inherit Ace's fruit. In my head it was something Oda has wanted all along.
Cloud Strife
Member
Knowing Garp, he probably tried to make Dragon a marine. Maybe he actually was for a time, but clearly he saw something or experienced some personal trauma regarding the WG.
I think it would be really interesting to see their relationship since Garp casually mentions how he spoke with Dragon to Luffy.
Imperial Bishop
Banned
No one else is worried that Sanji and the rest have been left to fend for themselves for over a day now?
Beside Sabaody, This is the first time half of the crew has been split for more than a day.
Beside Sabaody, This is the first time half of the crew has been split for more than a day.
BobTheFork
Member
I'm most interested in why Dragon isn't a 'pirate' It seems he could have easily called himself a pirate, built a fleet and do what he is doing now but they have made the distinction.
I'm going to guess Dragon was a marine, fell in love with a pirate and the fallout made him hate both sides
LonelyGreyWolf
Banned
The work that they do differ completely from that of pirates. Most of his men most probably wouldn't even want to be pirates. They're revolutionists; trying to fight corruption and regimes by creating war. They're completely different from pirates.
They're both kind of one in the same, as the Gorosei pointed out last chapter. The marines are merely their arm of execution. He's listed as "The Most Wanted Man in the World", and I'm sure the Marines fight revolutionaries all around the world.
In my opinion, there's only two outcomes:
1. They're captured and will be used as bait for Luffy
2. For some wacky reason everyone got chummy and they're having a cookout.
With Oda, it could honestly go either way. I doubt they escaped. The big question mark is what Capone is gonna do, who he's working for, and what the context of him taking Ceasar is.
Has a day really passed on OP? I thought all that Doflamingo stuff happened in the daytime and now it's nighttime from the same day.
Imperial Bishop
Banned
Luffy and Law are both asleep and probably won't wake up until the next morning, so it would be one day since the Swirlybrow crew went off to Zou.
BobTheFork
Member
I've never seen much different in what they do, just what they WANT to do. Luffy isn't fighting for a cause, just his self and his crew and the right to do whatever they want. Personal Freedom; Dragon is fighting for global freedom.
Tathanen
Get Inside Her!
Well, the revolutionary army infiltrated and liberated the workers at Tequila Wolf, that's not a particularly piratey thing to do. The revolutionary army has plans, goals, and explicit targets they're working towards, vs Luffy's more carefree "let's get dat freedom!"
LonelyGreyWolf
Banned
I have to disagree completely.
Alright, let's use your own example of "personal freedom" and "global freedom". Fair enough, while I would have used different words I agree with that statement. In the world of One Piece the pirates are people with the most freedom. But you cannot possibly view these two kinds of freedoms on the same level. Fighting for yourself and your close friends; sailing the seas in hope to explore the world, find treasures, make yourself famous or another piratelike intention, is completely -- completely -- different from the ideas and goals of the revolutionists. It's not even on the same level fundamentally. They're two complete different things.
I wonder if Dragon sees him as a chess piece or genuinly just has immense trust in him and what Garp did to raise him. I mean, Luffy is clearly lacking knowledge and understanding of the bigger things that Dragon is probably watching. Not that he even desire it atm.
LonelyGreyWolf
Banned
That's like saying a government doesn't differentiate thieves and murders, bank robbers or terrorists. They're all criminals, sure, but they're on different levels and need different amounts of attention, resources and punishments, and different methods for solving them too.
More Fun To Compute
Member
He does seem to have a personal relationship with the ruling classes of the world with how he seems to feel personally betrayed by how they behave. I think it's said that Garp never rose above vice admiral so he could stay clean and not have to deal with politics at that level. It would seem strange that he would make his son deal with that. Personally I think it would tie things together if Dragon was pulled from marine training and Garp's influence due to showing talent and was assigned to Cipher Pol.
Cloud Strife
Member
That would be really cool. Could be a tie-in to CP0 because there's no way Dragon wasn't talented or powerful.
Sibersk Esto
Banned
The world government would be fools to not place revolutionaries on a higher tier than pirates. Most pirates want nothing to do with the government if they can help it.
Yeah, this is possible. I saw theories that Dragon was a former Admiral or something like that, but I feel that would be odd given the secrecy surrounding the character. Admirals are publicly very well known and it would then never be a surprise to people he is Garp's son, for example. Him being a top tier ex-CP would make sense, I think.
Still wondering if there will be some info on Luffy's mom too, maybe when Luffy finally meets Dragon. Still betting on a Gold. D. Roger tie on that front. But I do think she is dead.
Yeah, heh. But I do think Dragon is more serious, not as insane as Luffy. With Garp being the midpoint in terms of character. But then again, Luffy is also getting more serious overall (when needed).
NHarmonic.
Member
Loved it too, and the fact that he answered off-panel was even more funny.
TheGreatDirector
Banned
What if Dragon was chosen to be a Fleet Admiral, but declined for some reason and became the leader of the revolutionaries?
Cloud Strife
Member
The more I think about it, the more him being CP makes sense. CP has direct ties to the WG and basically do their bidding without the facade of "justice" and "peace", aka the dirtywork.
Dragon definitely saw some fucked up shit, or maybe was forced to make an impossible choice.
I'm also sure that Luffy's mom will factor into it somehow, maybe she was a noble?
Oh damn, a history where Dragon and a noble girl hook up, Dragon was just a marine or a CP or maybe just following Garp around and he was tasked (or Garp) with protecting this girl because she was going to marry someone extremely important, but they fall in love and escape together and give birth to Luffy, and live a few years of happiness. Dragon is now an enemy to the world because he "kidnapped" the girl (a lie) by the WG.
At some point they are about to be captured, and its all very sad and tragic, maybe she sacrifices herself to let Luffy and Dragon escape, or maybe Dragon is leaved alone with Luffy and has bowed to take revenge on the WG, so he leaves Luffy with Garp.
Imperial Bishop
Banned
Apparently, not just Ace, but the name "Sakazuki" is what also contributed to Sabo remembering everything.
https://www.reddit.com/r/OnePiece/comments/3dogo4/something_i_think_people_are_missing_from_the/
I need to learn Japanese.
https://www.reddit.com/r/OnePiece/comments/3dogo4/something_i_think_people_are_missing_from_the/
I need to learn Japanese.
This is kinda of huge, wow. Can't wait for Sakaguchi flashback.
Imperial Bishop
Banned
It makes too much sense to be a stretch.
Tathanen
Get Inside Her!
Does it even say sakazuki? MS wrote Akainu. Are people reading it on the newspaper or something?
Raonak
Banned
sakazuki thing is awesome
I take it that before sabo died he would've formed the ASL pirates (and thus presumably get ASL tatooed), but those plans died along with sabo. Instead he started his own pirate crew.
I take it that before sabo died he would've formed the ASL pirates (and thus presumably get ASL tatooed), but those plans died along with sabo. Instead he started his own pirate crew.
Lets be honest, Oda is a great writer that probably plans a lot more out than other writers in the same category, but it would be silly to think he plans everything out in a weekly series with deadlines. Hell, even mos writers that have no schedule usual only have a skeleton of events that happen with a large part of events and details filled in as they write.
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