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One Piece Manga |OT| ZEHAHAHAHA! The Name of this Age is Blackbeard!

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Veelk

Banned
I really like your analysis. Mihawk said in the beginning of One Piece that a sword is simply an iron bar without the user's own skill. It's possible that someone could theoretically make a sword out of Haki and use it. However as Haki is something that can be drained and need recharge as shown with Luffy after using Gear 4, it makes sense for people to use actual swords to conserve energy.

Hm...This is a good point, actually.

I guess I'm just somewhat baffled by why in a world where buildings can be destroyed with ease, a sword, however well made, wouldn't be as well, but I guess that's where the ranked swords come in that are special and unbreakable by normal means. And if a sword is just an iron bar that depends on the users skill/will/spirit/whatever, then once that is depleted, the sword itself would be useless in any case.

I can admit that in that sense a sword would be a 'better safe than sorry' measure, but my argument person could still fight with the same function and efficacy without a sword still stands. Maybe just not the same durability, so it can be a practical measure, but not a necessary one. Guys like Releigh wouldn't need swords, since they're no longer looking for fights or anything and they'd be skilled enough to put down anyone who goes after them with ease.
 

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
I really like your analysis. Mihawk said in the beginning of One Piece that a sword is simply an iron bar without the user's own skill. It's possible that someone could theoretically make a sword out of Haki and use it. However as Haki is something that can be drained and need recharge as shown with Luffy after using Gear 4, it makes sense for people to use actual swords to conserve energy.

We've never even seen someone use anything close to something like that though. The point your talking about was Hawkeye saying Zorro having an amazing sword is pointless if he doesn't have the skill to back it up. We've never seen any sort of foreshadowing to anything like Veelk is even talking about. Haki for example is a concept that, while it wasn't solidified until a few years ago, can be traced back to the first chapter. Nothing we've ever seen in relation to anything says a haki sword could even be a thing, I feel like we'd have seen some kind of foreshadowing at some point--like during the war of the best, if anyone would have been able to do it they'd have likely been at the fight. All we've ever seen from haki is that it's a way to bypass defenses and increase attack and defense. It seems like more of a straight buff than a nen-type ability.
 

Veelk

Banned
We've never even seen someone use anything close to something like that though. The point your talking about was Hawkeye saying Zorro having an amazing sword is pointless if he doesn't have the skill to back it up. We've never seen any sort of foreshadowing to anything like Veelk is even talking about. Haki for example is a concept that, while it wasn't solidified until a few years ago, can be traced back to the first chapter. Nothing we've ever seen in relation to anything says a haki sword could even be a thing, I feel like we'd have seen some kind of foreshadowing at some point--like during the war of the best, if anyone would have been able to do it they'd have likely been at the fight.

This argument is akin to saying "We may have lemons and sugar, but no one has ever made or even mentioned lemonade before, therefore there's no reason to believe lemonade is possible!" I've gone over multiple times how a Haki sword can be made with the base information we have available. That no one has put two and two together isn't really important to whether it can be done.
 

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
This argument is akin to saying "We may have lemons, but no one has ever made or even mentioned lemonade before, therefore there's no reason to believe lemonade is possible!" I've gone over multiple times how a Haki sword can be made with the base information we have available. That no one has put two and two together isn't really important to whether it can be done.

No, no it is not. Haki swords comes from what can only be described as a fundamental misunderstand as to what haki is and what it's purpose is. Unless the plan is to write devil fruits out of the story completely there's no point in giving such an ability to haki and not just making it a devil fruit power. So far haki is as such: armament haki lets you boost attack and defense, observation haki lets you read your opponents moves and sense nearby danger, conqueror's haki has the most room for growth but right now there's no sense it could lead to anything like weapon materialization.
 

Veelk

Banned
No, no it is not. Haki swords comes from what can only be described as a fundamental misunderstand as to what haki is and what it's purpose is. Unless the plan is to write devil fruits out of the story completely there's no point in giving such an ability to haki and not just making it a devil fruit power. So far haki is as such: armament haki lets you boost attack and defense, observation haki lets you read your opponents moves and sense nearby danger, conqueror's haki has the most room for growth but right now there's no sense it could lead to anything like weapon materialization.

http://onepiece.wikia.com/wiki/Haki/Busoshoku_Haki

Naturally this "invisible armor" can be used as a weapon to strike others with. It can be used to augment the user's own attacks, projected ahead of the user as pure brute force, or imbued in weapons to increase their effectiveness. Any attack enhanced by Busoshoku Haki hits immensely harder than it would normally be without it. The Kuja's Haki-imbued arrows, for example, are capable of penetrating solid stone.

Naturally this "invisible armor" can be used as a weapon to strike others with. It can be used to augment the user's own attacks, projected ahead of the user as pure brute force, or imbued in weapons to increase their effectiveness.

projected ahead of the user as pure brute force

I have literally said this like 50 times. If it can be projected ahead of the users, it already can function as an "arrow". Haki exists outside the users body. It is not merely a buff, it's a manifestation of force. If a user could somehow make that manifestation a constant, rather than a burst and if he could shape it, he could make weapons out of it.

So we know Haki can be projected outwards. We know it can be made into a constant manifestation. We know users can manipulate where and how it manifests.

Literally the only thing that is missing is that someone decides to shape it into a sword, rather than just a general 'projectile'.

Lemons. Sugar. Now someone just needs to make lemonade out of them.
 

smurfx

get some go again
who here thinks luffy is the one that will end up being the eye patch pirate? i think it's definitely going to be him. the only real question is who is the one that will take his eye. i'm guessing it's blackbeard.
 

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
who here thinks luffy is the one that will end up being the eye patch pirate? i think it's definitely going to be him. the only real question is who is the one that will take his eye. i'm guessing it's blackbeard.

I actually think it'll be Blackbeard. His design feels like it could use an eyepatch and he did scratch Shanks' eye so if the two fight it could be a case of what goes around comes around.
 
The sword technique in OP is never really explained although Oda drops little clues here and there.

People who know a little Japanese and predicted "haki" also predicted "sakki." Sakki is like the dark side powers to the Haki light side. It's the will to kill or draw blood. Hints of links between the dark side or underwold and sword skills have been dropped plenty of times. "Dracule" Mihawk, Zoro's demonic attacks and terrifying aura, "Dark King" Silvers Rayleigh, Brook gaining swordsman powers when he was recognised as a devil and connected with the underworld. But it's possible that using armour haki to cut is not useful without a sharp sword and "Sakki."
 
Yes it is. That is the literal definition of blocking. The cancellation of force by another force.

Block (as a verb):

: to be placed in front of (something, such as a road or path) so that people or things cannot pass through

: to place something in front of (something, such as a road) so that people or things cannot go into the area

: to stop (someone or something) from moving through or going by

Cancel (as a verb):

: to stop doing or planning to do (something) : to decide that something (such as a game, performance, etc.) will not happen

: to cause (something) to end or no longer produce a certain effect : to stop (something) from being effective or valid

: to put a mark with a set of ink lines on something (such as a stamp) so that it cannot be used again

Similar but not the same.


Parrying is just warding off your opponents attack. It has nothing to do with control.

Again, in CQC, why would they need to rely on an air slash when using their weapon is more practical when the opponent is literally within reach?


Are you making up your own definitions for things? Because that's the only way this applies. It's an aspect of air slash that, having seperated from the user, is a consequence that it's no longer directly under the users control, but it's by no means a definitive aspect of it. By that same logic, you would have to argue that digestion is part of the definition of eating, just because it's a consequence of it, and if you do not digest food, that means it's impossible to eat it.

So you're trying to tell me that non-devil fruit swordsman would be able to control every minute movement of an air slash once it's left the blade? Because that's exactly what feinting with an air slash would require.
That's what I'm talking about. I have no idea how that tangent is relevant.



You want me to bring out Meriam Webster here? Those definitions aren't liberal, they're highly conservative if anything. This is, in the most literal sense, how basic physics work. Forces moving against other forces. You cancel out a force, you've blocked it.

See my response to your first quote.

Now, you might disagree with how practical it is to do these things relating to finesse and control, but it's pretty definitive that this is what these actions are and do and Air slashes do accomplish them.

I'm still waiting to see someone feint and parry and disarm with only an air slash.

As such: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tVk4dzbT1s

And trying to argue in terms of finesse and control in OP is a fools errand. One piece has never been about those things.

S7CEb9E.gif


Yes, because Zoro and Mihawk just swing their swords around like madmen. How else would they have been so skilled in swordplay?


There are literally hundreds of techniques that, by all reason, should be significantly ineffective or lacking in control in actual fights for those exact reasons.

Oh, boy. I know where this is going.

The way Arlong try to bite people mid combat is a suicidally dangerous move because they are exposing their head (a very vulnerable area) to attack for the chance of a very easy to dodge attack.

Yep.
It's not like Fishmen have abnormal strength.

It's not like Arlong has other forms of fighting besides biting.

It's not like Arlong can use his own ripped-out teeth to attack without leaning in to bite someone's head off.

Mihawk's giant sword and its oversized guard is straight up idiotic. It'd throw off the balance and get in the way of a lot of basic manuevers. Law's nodachi is, in real life, meant for taking down horses, but the way he uses it would be highly impractical. The guy wouldn't be able to unsheathe the stupid thing because is clearly longer than his arm span.

Yep. It's not like Mihawk and Law have superhuman strength and superhuman endurance or anything like that.

But in the world of OP, Arlong's bite is a tactically sound technique. In OP, Mihawk's sword is perfectly balanced within his hand and never interferes with his techniques. In OP, Law can easily unsheathe and resheathe his sword without trouble. And you're going to argue that a 0 sword style would somehow be impractical because of finesse and control?

Yes, because there is a CLEAR similarity between hand-held weapons and physical attributes that can be easily maneuvered and detached air cut that can only do one action.

In case you haven't caught on, this is sarcasm. For further online convenience, I'll use italics to represent when sarcasm is being used.

I repeat my earlier assertion: It's one piece. it does the fuck it wants.

Only when that train of though is convenient to your assumptions.

Bad analogy. Using a rocket launcher would give explosive splashback of force to the user. Air slashes wouldn't.

At such close range, the other guy would see the air slash coming as soon as they began. That's why they're used in mid-to-long range.


Assuming you don't care about that, grenades are fantastic close range weapons, which is why they are used in suicide tactical combat.

Lovely idea. Why don't more military combatants use these suicidal grenade tactics all the time? I'm pretty sure they can win any battle by blowing themselves up. I doubt it would have an affect on the size of their army in any future potential conflicts.


A sword cut is just a certain amount of force applied to a very small area. The only difference between a sword and a club is that the area that the sword strikes at is much smaller. Following me so far? Now, it's established by Kaku that he can use air strikes that are of equivelent sharpness to a sword, even though his feat obviously don't have the small area of the edge of a sword. As such, the purpose of the sword (which is to apply a very small area to put pressure on) is rendered null and void. People can just use their limbs to function as swords, which is the whole argument I am making.

I agree. Albeit, it has to be people with the amount of physical training that requires them to create air slashes with their limbs like CP9 could arguably do a Rankyaku-like attack.

The limits to this, as you implied in the first quote I mention here, is that a swing has to be completed for the air slash to leave the blade or in this case limb (apparently). I have my doubts about this, but even if that is a factor, Haki can be used as a substitute weapon for using hard weapons for close range combat. As such, swords are, at best, an aesthetic choice people choose to employ.

Are you referring to haki users coating their limbs in Armament or are you referring to them creating tangible weapons out of haki?



No, the world of OP, as what has been written thus far, does function independently. It's future is dependent on Oda, but not it's function in the past and present. If Oda died right now, the world of OP would not disappear.

That's a debatable topic, but what is canon to One Piece only comes from Oda, as of now.
If Oda died before concluding the story, a new author would simply use the notes he had available for the rest of the manga. And before you think otherwise, Oda does in fact have notebooks upon notebooks for future events and concepts in One Piece.

attachment.php

And Oda's authorial power may have influence over the events of the future, that has nothing to do with the internal logic of the story. Lets examine this hypothetical: Say there is a boy that needs to light a campfire. He has fire wood and lighting and a lighter. However, the writer is the kind of writer that does not want to use obvious methods, so he has the boy ignore those things and try to find an already lit fire to steal. Now, if you know this writer as a particular one that refuses to use obvious and practical methods, then you would be forced to argue that the boy has no plausible way of lighting a fire. However, the world he has set up, lighting a fire IS very plausible, even if the writer won't allow it to happen that way.

You're using pre-existing real life things like fire, lightning, wood, etc. in a comparison to a fictional exaggerated concept like Haki. The possibility of what it can do can't be used in a real-life comparison because there is nothing like Haki in our world to make such a ludicrous claim.
 

Veelk

Banned
Similar but not the same.

Considering that both definitions apply to what Zoro pulled off in that video, they are in fact not merely similar, but the same to the context we are discussing. Context is important here. You can change it where they mean distinctly different things, but both definitions apply to the context of the video I linked. To block a sword strike you place an X in front of it's path to stop it from going forward (definition 2 and 3, and 1 if you are seeing it from the strike's perspective). To cancel a sword strike is to prevent it from continuing to go forward (Definition 1 and 2) . Zoro did both.

Again, in CQC, why would they need to rely on an air slash when using their weapon is more practical when the opponent is literally within reach?

Again, in OP, the question isn't why, it's why not.

So you're trying to tell me that non-devil fruit swordsman would be able to control every minute movement of an air slash once it's left the blade? Because that's exactly what feinting with an air slash would require.
That's what I'm talking about. I have no idea how that tangent is relevant.

A feint doesn't require a strike. It's a move meant to deceive or mislead. A feint could be a swordsman placing his left foot forward, and then switching to move to the side and attack from there. Controlling a blow in every aspect is not part any definition of swordplay. They're bodily movements, and while movements are typically controlled, it's not a necessity. Feints CAN be accomplished with blades, but it's not necessary. All a feinting user of Haki sword would have to do is move his body one way to seem to attack with an airstrike, but not do it and instead move it another way for a different attack, sending an air slash like that.

See my response to your first quote.

See mine. The definitions you gave of block and canceling both apply to the sword play we are discussing in the same way.

I'm still waiting to see someone feint and parry and disarm with only an air slash.

As such: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tVk4dzbT1s

I'd wait for someone to do that with actual swords in OP first. That's not how people fight in OP

Yes, because Zoro and Mihawk just swing their swords around like madmen. How else would they have been so skilled in swordplay?

Oh, boy. I know where this is going.

Yep.
It's not like Fishmen have abnormal strength.

It's not like Arlong has other forms of fighting besides biting.

It's not like Arlong can use his own ripped-out teeth to attack without leaning in to bite someone's head off.

Yep. It's not like Mihawk and Law have superhuman strength and superhuman endurance or anything like that.

Yes, because there is a CLEAR similarity between hand-held weapons and physical attributes that can be easily maneuvered and detached air cut that can only do one action.

Okay, look if you're actually going to argue practice and skill with those things discredits the argument of the practicality of the weapons themselves, then you've essentially defeated your own argument regarding the invisible weapons. Even if I concede (and I don't, but hypothetically) that it would be more convienent to use physical swords vs air/haki ones, OP is set up so that people easily compensate for such things. Just have a person who is extra fast or has good observation Haki or whatevver so his no sword, sword techniques is more effective than him having a real sword would be. The impracticality is still there, but they compensate for it, as you suggest the attributes of those characters do.

I mean, you can't be seriously arguing that those justifications are actual justifications that realistically nullify the impracticality of the weapons.

Arlong has super strength? So, that doesn't change the fact that he is literally extending one of the most vulnerable parts of his body for an attack that has small chance of hitting. He has other attacks? Which make that one more practical, how? He can use his teeth in his hands? You do realize that is just as impractical, surely. Trying to grab an opponent with a snappers isn't a easy thing, especially when they're not springloaded or anything. Mihawk has super strength? And how does that mean that the handle won't get in the way if he wanted to perform a basic manuver (Such as switching the side in which he holds his blade while keeping it close to his body) that literally everyone who doesn't have that stupid handle would do.

It's like trying to say Shanks wouldn't be stronger with both arms just because he learned how to get by on one arm enough to become emperor. Yeah, he's still strong and not letting his armlessness stop him, but to argue that it's actually more convienent for him to have one arm than it would be to have both is pretty laughable. Or, if you want to go that route and argue this, then you have no basis to which you place your practicality argument for.

Either practicality exists in OP and tons of characters ignore and compensate for it, or it doesn't and anything goes. Either way, a swordless style is equally effective as a style with a sword.

In case you haven't caught on, this is sarcasm. For further online convenience, I'll use italics to represent when sarcasm is being used.

I sincerely hope all that was, because I'm sure your more intelligent than to think the flimsy justifications you gave negate the practical issues of those fighting techniques and weapons. You have to know the super strength and such merely compensate for the inherent weaknesses and issues they bring. I'm sure you are fully aware of those things and were just humoring me. Otherwise, I should have saved myself the time typing out the responses of why those aren't reasons that the techniques aren't impractical and just flung this back at you

S7CEb9E.gif


Look, let me be clear: If you like the way OP's characters fights, that's fine, no problem. But, by and large, there is no arguing that fighting that way, even if they have super strength, is practical. It's done for aesthetics. If you like those aesthetics, fine, but don't try to tell me practicality enters into it.

At such close range, the other guy would see the air slash coming as soon as they began. That's why they're used in mid-to-long range.

Uh...long distance makes things easier to see coming, not harder. All other things being equal, the closer you are, the less likely you'll see it coming because there is less time to react because there's less space for the attack to travel.

Lovely idea. Why don't more military combatants use these suicidal grenade tactics all the time? I'm pretty sure they can win any battle by blowing themselves up. I doubt it would have an affect on the size of their army in any future potential conflicts.

Are you really that unfamiliar with tactics? Suicide bombers is a very common tactic. Even in non suicide combatants, when defeated but not dead, pulling a grenade as the enemy approaches to finish you off is a pretty common "fuck you" to the enemy victor. And it's basically impossible to block, so as a CQC tactic, it's extremely effective. It's just costly, but assuming you're willing to accept that cost, it's great.

Put it like this. An enemy has you close. They've pulled the pin and you have, lets say 1 seconds to counter. What in the fuck are you going to do prevent the explosion from harming you? Nothing. That makes it highly effective and efficient in terms of killing potential. It's costly, so using it as a last resort is ideal, but it's a highly practical way to kill people otherwise.

I agree. Albeit, it has to be people with the amount of physical training that requires them to create air slashes with their limbs like CP9 could arguably do a Rankyaku-like attack.
Again, Sanji learned one of their techniques because he wanted to outrun a bunch of transvestites. It can't be that difficult.

Are you referring to haki users coating their limbs in Armament or are you referring to them creating tangible weapons out of haki?

See my last post.

You're using pre-existing real life things like fire, lightning, wood, etc. in a comparison to a fictional exaggerated concept like Haki. The possibility of what it can do can't be used in a real-life comparison because there is nothing like Haki in our world to make such a ludicrous claim.

The interesting thing is that the fire and lighting fluid and wood in my example are equally fictional to Haki. That's the strange thing about fiction, that which doesn't exist in real life and that which does is equally unreal. And it's also the reason what your insinuating is complete nonsense. Logic doesn't worry about whether things are real or not, it's just concerned about whether something follows or not. If you have firewood and a lighter, then it follows you can combine them to light a camp fire. Whether those things exist or not is irrelevant to the logic of the situation. Haki doesn't need to exist in real life, just in the theoretical mindspace where OP's world is. We've been given it's functions, so now it's just a matter of theorizing how those functions can be manipulated. So we are back to the problem at hand: Is there a given reason within the structure of the world of OP that what I describe cannot logically happen? In over a page of debate, I'm not seeing anything.

Edit: actually, fine, let's play your game. Let's say, instead of a lighter, the boy has fire powers. He can shoot fire out of his hands. So he has fire wood, lighter fluid, and fire powers, written by a writer who you know will not combine those things to make a campfire. Is it plausible for the boy to make a campfire? By the internal logic, yes. By external logic, no.
 
I've only watched the Beat Takeshi version of Zatoichi and I enjoyed it but apparently the original series of movies was insanely popular and long running in Japan. You could say that it was a monster of Japanse cinema although Kurosawa films are better known in the west. Clint Eastwood was inspired my the actor Mifune who you could also say was another monster of Japanese cinema.
 
Again, in OP, the question isn't why, it's why not.

We seem to be going around in circles with this.

A feint doesn't require a strike. It's a move meant to deceive or mislead. A feint could be a swordsman placing his left foot forward, and then switching to move to the side and attack from there. Controlling a blow in every aspect is not part any definition of swordplay. They're bodily movements, and while movements are typically controlled, it's not a necessity. Feints CAN be accomplished with blades, but it's not necessary. All a feinting user of Haki sword would have to do is move his body one way to seem to attack with an airstrike, but not do it and instead move it another way for a different attack, sending an air slash like that.
You're reaching a tad bit right there.
How would he seem to attack with an "airstrike"? That's not feinting with an air slash. That's feinting an attack then following it up with an air slash.


I'd wait for someone to do that with actual swords in OP first. That's not how people fight in OP

It's been done, but it's not like many of the characters need to.


Okay, look if you're actually going to argue practice and skill with those things discredits the argument of the practicality of the weapons themselves, then you've essentially defeated your own argument regarding the invisible weapons. Even if I concede (and I don't, but hypothetically) that it would be more convienent to use physical swords vs air/haki ones, OP is set up so that people easily compensate for such things. Just have a person who is extra fast or has good observation Haki or whatevver so his no sword, sword techniques is more effective than him having a real sword would be. The impracticality is still there, but they compensate for it, as you suggest the attributes of those characters do.

1) There's no need for those characters to compensate because they've trained mostly in those skill sets to gain that level of strength and skill or were genetically born to have those traits.

2) You're mixing up the arguments. I never said haki-made swords were impractical, just that they're implausible. Not impossible. IMPLAUSIBLE.

I mean, you can't be seriously arguing that those justifications are actual justifications that realistically nullify the impracticality of the weapons.

1) Yes

2) Realistically, those weapons are impractical. In fiction, however....

Arlong has super strength? So, that doesn't change the fact that he is literally extending one of the most vulnerable parts of his body for an attack that has small chance of hitting.
- He's only done that move only a few times.
- He only does it on a caught enemy that is fighting solo (i.e. Luffy).

He has other attacks? Which make that one more practical, how? He can use his teeth in his hands? You do realize that is just as impractical, surely. Trying to grab an opponent with a snappers isn't a easy thing, especially when they're not springloaded or anything.

Yet he got Luffy with it.
And don't use the "B-but Luffy's an idiot. He's not a clever combatant." routine because it won't work.

Mihawk has super strength? And how does that mean that the handle won't get in the way if he wanted to perform a basic manuver (Such as switching the side in which he holds his blade while keeping it close to his body) that literally everyone who doesn't have that stupid handle would do.

Skill.

Also he has this if he doesn't want to dull his blade.

It's like trying to say Shanks wouldn't be stronger with both arms just because he learned how to get by on one arm enough to become emperor. Yeah, he's still strong and not letting his armlessness stop him, but to argue that it's actually more convienent for him to have one arm than it would be to have both is pretty laughable. Or, if you want to go that route and argue this, then you have no basis to which you place your practicality argument for.
And who exactly was making that argument?

Either practicality exists in OP and tons of characters ignore and compensate for it, or it doesn't and anything goes. Either way, a swordless style is equally effective as a style with a sword.

1) Practicality in fiction has its own rules. These rules vary from author to author.

2) Swordless style, like brawlers and martial artists? I thought we were talking about the mighty "air slash". :>

I sincerely hope all that was, because I'm sure your more intelligent than to think the flimsy justifications you gave negate the practical issues of those fighting techniques and weapons. You have to know the super strength and such merely compensate for the inherent weaknesses and issues they bring.
But, by and large, there is no arguing that fighting that way, even if they have super strength, is practical. It's done for aesthetics. If you like those aesthetics, fine, but don't try to tell me practicality enters into it.
*copy* *paste*

1) Practicality in fiction has its own rules. These rules vary from author to author.

Uh...long distance makes things easier to see coming, not harder.
That depends on the speed and the size of the incoming attack.

All other things being equal, the closer you are, the less likely you'll see it coming because there is less time to react because there's less space for the attack to travel.

It's can also make the "air slash" easier to dodge. If the opposing fighter can react and dodge the swing of blade in close combat, he's surely not getting hit by the air slash.

Are you really that unfamiliar with tactics? Suicide bombers is a very common tactic. Even in non suicide combatants, when defeated but not dead, pulling a grenade as the enemy approaches to finish you off is a pretty common "fuck you" to the enemy victor. And it's basically impossible to block, so as a CQC tactic, it's extremely effective. It's just costly, but assuming you're willing to accept that cost, it's great.

But it's not a tactic that is utilized almost all the time in any battle, am I right?

Again, Sanji learned one of their techniques because he wanted to outrun a bunch of transvestites. It can't be that difficult.
Less common usage of Rankakyu outside of CP9 has no way in part to do with difficulty of learning.


See my last post.

Haki can be imbued in projectile weapons like arrows or bullets. It can't just be imbued onto nothing, based on what we know.


The interesting thing is that the fire and lighting fluid and wood in my example are equally fictional to Haki. That's the strange thing about fiction, that which doesn't exist in real life and that which does is equally unreal. And it's also the reason what your insinuating is complete nonsense. Logic doesn't worry about whether things are real or not, it's just concerned about whether something follows or not. If you have firewood and a lighter, then it follows you can combine them to light a camp fire. Whether those things exist or not is irrelevant to the logic of the situation. Haki doesn't need to exist in real life, just in the theoretical mindspace where OP's world is. We've been given it's functions, so now it's just a matter of theorizing how those functions can be manipulated. So we are back to the problem at hand: Is there a given reason within the structure of the world of OP that what I describe cannot logically happen? In over a page of debate, I'm not seeing anything.

The logic of the real world and the logic of a comic DON'T. ALWAYS. MATCH. UP.
One Piece is amalgam of real logical facts and fantasy logic. When I say something is implausible given the logic of the OP realm, it's because I'm making an observation on how the characters react and respond from past experiences in the story.

Is it impossible for air slashes to work as effective as swords in a combat setting in OP?
No.

Is it implausible given the amalgamic logic of OP?
Yes.

Is it impossible to create weapons made out of haki in OP?
We don't know.

Is it implausible based on the current info we have on haki at the moment?
Most likely.

And that's all she wrote.
 

BatDan

Bane? Get them on board, I'll call it in.
I really hope the next six days isn't just endless arguing...

This is the downside of Oda's breaks, it leads to people going crazy.
 

Veelk

Banned
This whole thing is getting way too seperated, so I'll group the similar arguments.
You're reaching a tad bit right there.
How would he seem to attack with an "airstrike"? That's not feinting with an air slash. That's feinting an attack then following it up with an air slash.

When the attack you are feinting with is meant to be an airslash, then you are feinting with an airslash attack, regardless if it turns out to be that. Honestly, you're making this more complicated than it actually is. A feint is just making your opponent think that your going to do A, when you're actually going to do B. If you look like your going to do an airslash, it's an airslash feint.

*numerous Incorrect statements on logic and practicality and skills*

I'm just grouping this together because it's the source of our disagreement and we're just generally talking about the same thing with like 10 different examples, so I want to condense it into one thing with several points.

The TLDR version is that you seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of what logic and practicality are.

First, lets discuss logic. You claim that fiction has it's own rules of logic. No it doesn't. Logic is universal. Logic is how you determine what is practical, not a set of rules in and of itself. The universal format of it is "Determine goal -> the most efficient way of achieving that goal -> Application of method" This does not waver. The variables of this is the goal and the method, but the process of logic is constant. You do the thing that gets you what you want the best way possible.

Now, fighting: Logically speaking, Arlong's fighting style is highly impractical. It doesn't matter if he has super strength or 'skills'. Because you know what else he has? A humanoid body.

GADd7un.jpg


This? This is simply not how the human body moves. For this to hit anyone, not only would Arlong's jaw have to open more than it does in the picture (like, it'd have to be a straight 180 degrees at minimum), but the spinning move does not add more force that simply biting down would. Furthermore, assuming his spinning is pin point accurate and doesn't impede his sense of balance, it'd still be spending more energy than a simple lunge would do for identical results. (I can't believe I actually have to literally explain this...) This move, by our real world rules, would be impractical. By One Pieces rules, given all we know about how fishman are stronger and have sharper teeth and etc....it's still should be impractical. Because Arlong has a humanoid body, there is no reason this should be anything but a less effective way of trying to hit someone with his teeth. No amount of super strength can explain this away, this is just not how the human body moves.

Well, can it be logically practical? Yes, or atleast more practical than it currently is, but you'd have to alter things. This is what you think you were referring to when you said fiction 'has it's own rules of logic'. No, it doesn't, but the method to which you get a desired result can be different depending if the rules of the world are changed. For example, lets say that Arlong CAN widen his jaw to convex angular proportions. And lets suppose that there is some magic force that makes his teeth sharper when spinning and longer, and more painful, and hits for less damage. Then, and only then, it would be practical, because now we have a definitive functional basis in which we can legitimately argue that this attack is better than another. Another example is his basic bite attack, like these, is impractical for a humanoid body. he's throwing his entire body foreward (the slowest way of attacking), head first (a very vulnerable point) when the neck is simply not made to be a combat tool. To make that attack practical, Arlong would have to have a much longer and more fluid neck, maybe like a snakes so he doesn't have to move his whole body, along with an unhinged jaw. Then maybe it'd be practical, since then his body is more designed toward that, but not so as it is.

Same with Mihawk's sword. The fact is that it's unbalanced and it's obstructive hilt would get in the way of basic maneuvers. "But training! And skill!" Well, no. See, the fact is that no matter how much training Mihawk has, he's going to have to watch out for that hilt. He might get used to it and learn to work with it, but the thing is ALWAYS going to be in the way. And for what purpose? None that we can tell. In comparison, using his same sword, but with an ordinary hilt, he'd basically be able to do everything he's able to do now, AND also all the manuevers that he wasn't able to do because it was in the way. No matter how you slice it, that hilt is impractical, because logically speaking, from everything we've seen from sword fights, he would gain a lot more ditching it and giving himself a shorter hilt than he would keeping it. The fact that he can supposedly compensate his skills for the impracticality doesn't change the fact that it's impractical because it's an inconvenience he has to work around.

Now, like Arlong, if we were given some kind of reason for the hilt. Lets say it has magical powers that empower the sword further. Okay, well that changes things. Now, the hilt provides greater gains than an ordinary hilt that allowed manueverability does. Now, it's practical to use the hilt over a sensibly short one. But One Piece doesn't have that, so it's impracticality remains. That, Imperial Bishop, is how logic works. It doesn't change from situation to sitaution, from real life to fantasy. The rules of the world do, which means it applies different rules when it is more efficient to do so, but that is not logic itself changing, just the material it is working with.

"But those techniques in OP ARE technically sound! Within the world of One Piece, they DO do damage and are effective in fights! " Well, yes, actually, and that's what I think is tripping you up. Yes, it might be that Arlong's teeth techniques do hit harder and Mihawks stupid hilt legitimately doesn't hinder him. Okay, assuming that's true, then yes, that makes them practical. Because practicality is about whether something works, not how it works. How it works, that's logic's territory, and if these techniques are practical, then that still means they are illogical, because that's simply now how they are supposed to work given the rules of the world we were informed of. If things are still tangible, then it doesn't matter how skilled Mihawk gets at his style, that hilt ought to be a nuisance vs the same sword with a smaller hilt. If it isn't, then that's not OP 'operating by it's own logic', it's simply ignoring logic, deliberately breaking away from it, with no replacement component of what makes that obstructive hilt somehow unobstructive. Same with Arlong's techniques. If they are somehow tactically sound techniques, there is still a significant contradiction of how the human body is supposed to work and how it's depicted as working

So, as I said before, in OP, fighting works in one of two ways: Either we acknowledge that much of OP is impractical and characters simply choose to do them because Oda decided it's more aesthetically pleasing that what practical fight choreography would be... or the rules of the OP world dictate that the techniques they use are practical, and we are left with a lot of missing gaps of logic explaining how it is so (this I feel is the more reasonable option). Either way, means that the argument that this sprung from....

*arguments about air slashes*

is asinine. For the record, I'm condensing my argument of Haki sword, air slashes, and the stuff CP9 uses into one thing because they amount to the same thing to me: Basically using sword techniques without actual swords. The source of the power, be it CP9's shtick, Haki, or just the 'normal' air slashes that Zoro used before the time skip, is seem all like the same thing: The force of a blade strike without the sword to carry it.

Now, there has been a lot of back and forth of why you believe this fighting style would be impractical. I disagree with this in so far that we have already been shown dozens of impractical fighting styles that still some how are effective. I've tried to justify why it would logically work and we can continue to bicker back and forth on minutae details of how close distance might or might not work with a pure air slash fighting style...but honestly? Lets say your completely right about those impracticalities. Even if I were to concede that point...so what? Again, OP does the fuck it wants. Writing out that logic and practicality don't really meet in OP made me realize that there are PLENTY of fighting styles that had no logical practicality have lived and thrived. It makes no sense to be against this one. Even Luffy's fighting style makes no sense when you think about it. I don't think it makes anywhere close as little sense as you make it out to be, but if you're right and it's illogical for it to be practical....that doesn't mean it can't be practical. It just means there is no reason it should work, but it still can, which would make it basically like any other fighting style in OP.

So, this is a fundamentally pointless debate, because you could be completely logically correct for why it shouldn't be practical in OP.....it still would be practical in OP. Just cuz. Like almost every single other fighting style. Because OP does the fuck it wants.

Now, as far as the plausibility of Haki weapons go...

Haki can be imbued in projectile weapons like arrows or bullets. It can't just be imbued onto nothing, based on what we know.

Oh you mother...you know what, I give up. I'm not wrong here, but I'm giving up. I've given a link to the wiki that LITERALLY SAYS that that simply isn't true, that you CAN project Haki outside your body, with the link above. If you think the Wiki is wrong, then say that, but I'm fairly sure I remember an example of a brute force projected Haki attack somewhere. But at this point, I could probably find that exact page, and you wouldn't take it as evidence.

So I'm done with this part of the conversation. Haki weapons CAN be a thing based on the evidence we have, which might be refuted if you were to get off your ass to do it. However, there is no convincing you if you literally won't even acknowledge the fact that I am providing some measure of proof for my assertions and simply dismissing them off hand without explaining why the proof doesn't apply.

And who exactly was making that argument?

No one. Hence the "It's like saying" beginning part of it. It was making an analogous argument to demonstrate the absurdity of the claim you were making on practicality. No one was making it, but you were making an argument like it.

2) Swordless style, like brawlers and martial artists? I thought we were talking about the mighty "air slash". :>

No, it's just what I named what the theoretical fighting style would be called. We have Santoryu to designate 3 sword fighting style, and we also have the japanese names for 1 sword fighting style, 2 sword, 4 sword, 6 sword and 8 sword. This would be a 0 sword fighting style, using all sword techniques, but without actual blades, making air slashes. Because you don't need swords to do sword play in OP.

But it's not a tactic that is utilized almost all the time in any battle, am I right?

Better question is why that question has relevance. It's pretty clear how grenades ARE effective at killing, and it's pretty clear that air slashes do not have the same consequence as grenades do. You're losing the forest through the trees here.

Less common usage of Rankakyu outside of CP9 has no way in part to do with difficulty of learning.

That's because it doesn't seem to lack common usage period. From what the wiki says, all it is is swinging something fast enough to fire a shot of compressed air. Zoro and countless swordsmen already do that. The only distinction seems to be that Kaku used his limbs to do it rather than a blade, but, functionally speaking, it seems everyone and their grandma is already doing it, just with swords. All anyone has to do is use limbs instead, and he can throw his swords away, not needing them anymore.
 

RomanceDawn

Member
Never ever site the One Piece Wiki as a source of information beyond anything but dates. The only time CoA has been projected forward is with physical projectiles like arrows. That dumb definition of Haki from the wiki assumes too much. What it describes are energy balls launching from the user and we have in no way been given the impression that this is possible. It almost sounds like it functions in part like Fish Man Karate. Actually I take part of that back because a flying slash can probably be imbued with Haki. But that is the slicing air itself that is imbued rather than just nothing at all.

Color of Arms leaves and detaches from the user when the Color of Arms is attached to physical projectiles like bullets, arrows or devil fruit powers(light, electricity, etc). The idea of some invisible Haki sword is never happening in the story.
 
Holy shit...

I'm not going to say it's impossible, but given the high level users we've seen with Haki already, I don't think there's much of a chance for Haki weapons.
 
The primary training of Zoro was for him to learn the breath of all things. If armament haki was the most important skill for a swordsman then that is what he would have been trained in from a young age. It's possible that Zoro's cutting training is just superior to armament haki as we saw from the fight vs Pica. But my suspicion is that armament haki was a late hack to the universe of one piece put in to try to simplify fights so Oda could just say that the one with the superior "will" won.
 

RomanceDawn

Member
The primary training of Zoro was for him to learn the breath of all things. If armament haki was the most important skill for a swordsman then that is what he would have been trained in from a young age. It's possible that Zoro's cutting training is just superior to armament haki as we saw from the fight vs Pica. But my suspicion is that armament haki was a late hack to the universe of one piece put in to try to simplify fights so Oda could just say that the one with the superior "will" won.

The breath of all things was in all likelihood our first taste of Color of Arms Haki. I'm sure Oda has had a rough idea of why Logia don't just rule the world for a very long time now. I do stand by the opinion that all the crazy specifics we have now didn't come until much later in the story.

And no, we've seen on several occasions how a user who is more proficient in Haki loses to someone who has less skill in it or doesn't know how to use it period. Mariegold and Sandersonia are the first to come to mind. Sure Oda had Zoro give that BS line with Pica saying "Only if my. Haki is greater than yours!" Or some such but we already know that better Haki doesn't equate into a win.

Enough brute strength and speed can out do the benefits of Arms and Observation.
 

IHaveIce

Banned
The sword technique in OP is never really explained although Oda drops little clues here and there.

People who know a little Japanese and predicted "haki" also predicted "sakki." Sakki is like the dark side powers to the Haki light side. It's the will to kill or draw blood. Hints of links between the dark side or underwold and sword skills have been dropped plenty of times. "Dracule" Mihawk, Zoro's demonic attacks and terrifying aura, "Dark King" Silvers Rayleigh, Brook gaining swordsman powers when he was recognised as a devil and connected with the underworld. But it's possible that using armour haki to cut is not useful without a sharp sword and "Sakki."
That would be cool, spunds interesting.

I also wonder why Rayleigh has that nickname...
 
In the "rest of the world" chapter a little while ago Oda followed through with Sengoku, Kaidou, Kid, Capone, Uroge and everyone but not Bonney. Definite odd one out unless you also count Smoker.

So if narration jumps somewhere else it might be Bonney who I guess is at Wano but could be somewhere else like Whole Cake tying her to the tea party story.

I think that Jinbe is currently hauling a poneglyph on his back as a present for Robin or something so that could happen. Probably it's the Poneglyph that explains the will of D and how to make the best cotton candy.
 

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
In the "rest of the world" chapter a little while ago Oda followed through with Sengoku, Kaidou, Kid, Capone, Uroge and everyone but not Bonney. Definite odd one out unless you also count Smoker.

So if narration jumps somewhere else it might be Bonney who I guess is at Wano but could be somewhere else like Whole Cake tying her to the tea party story.

I think that Jinbe is currently hauling a poneglyph on his back as a present for Robin or something so that could happen. Probably it's the Poneglyph that explains the will of D and how to make the best cotton candy.

THE MOST IMPORTANT INFORMATION
 
Dragon is gonna fall from the sky and explain D and Rayleigh will arrive and explain the Void Century against Luffy's will they hold him down ALL IN ONE CHAPTER
 

SolVanderlyn

Thanos acquires the fully powered Infinity Gauntlet in The Avengers: Infinity War, but loses when all the superheroes team up together to stop him.
I just want confirmation that Kaido is the reason Moria's chin got all messed up. Flashback showing us what happened to his crew.

Edit: Not in 800 but eventually.

For 800 I want Jinbei to show up again.
 

SolVanderlyn

Thanos acquires the fully powered Infinity Gauntlet in The Avengers: Infinity War, but loses when all the superheroes team up together to stop him.
Take your pick.

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Tag quote

This is amazing.

Enel is a great villain and needs to return with his space mole army. Recall that Oda said his bounty would be 500,000,000 if he were on the blue seas. The man is a monster and only lost because Luffy had a lucky chance affinity over him. Lightning is such a cool ability, too.
 
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