Support NeoGAF

[Veelk]

So I was reading up on momosuke and something occurred to me. The whole thing with Momosuke's underhanded sexual molestation of Nami and Robin via the childhood innocence facade. Are they aware?

Like, he's pretty blatant about it. Are they just made into idiots by maternal instinct, or are they playing along and just into the whole Shota con thing. Cuz I honestly don't know which interpretation is worse.

 

[Magwik]

So I was reading up on momosuke and something occurred to me. The whole thing with Momosuke's underhanded sexual molestation of Nami and Robin via the childhood innocence facade. Are they aware?

Like, he's pretty blatant about it. Are they just made into idiots by maternal instinct, or are they playing along and just into the whole Shota con thing. Cuz I honestly don't know which interpretation is worse.

I think they're just completely ignorant about it as in a "how could a kid this young ever have these sort of intentions"

 

[Veelk]

I think they're just completely ignorant about it as in a "how could a kid this young ever have these sort of intentions"

Possibly by considering the frequency and enthusiasm of how he keeps specifically digging his face into their tits.

 

[Cloud Strife]

Because you might think he doesn't deserve it, or any justification for him getting it would be weak and not good enough, given his character thus far? Dunno man.

So...a joke character?

I'm repeating myself, but that's what I mean. I don't understand how you can look at Usopp, a character who's entire purpose is "turning lies into reality" and becoming a great warrior of the sea and think he isn't good enough for CH.

I mean, I understand that you might think he's a joke character and doesn't deserve it, but he isn't entirely.

 

[Veelk]

I believe Usopp us supposed to be a lethal joke character that is meant to suck, but doesn't, and that's the joke.

Personally, I like it better when he's just an out and out character.

 

[Cloud Strife]

So I was reading up on momosuke and something occurred to me. The whole thing with Momosuke's underhanded sexual molestation of Nami and Robin via the childhood innocence facade. Are they aware?

Like, he's pretty blatant about it. Are they just made into idiots by maternal instinct, or are they playing along and just into the whole Shota con thing. Cuz I honestly don't know which interpretation is worse.

It's just a gag.

Sanji, Brook, and Kinemon are lustful characters and so the gag is that a little kid can be very forward physically while they can't.

It's like Nami hitting people like Luffy (rubber) and hurting them as a gag, it's just a gag and there's no real reason for it besides humor.

 

[Veelk]

It's just a gag.

Sanji, Brook, and Kinemon are lustful characters and so the gag is that a little kid can be very forward physically while they can't.

It's like Nami hitting people like Luffy (rubber) and hurting them as a gag, it's just a gag and there's no real reason for it besides humor.

It's amazing to me how people think that something being a joke divorces it from any sort of meaning. That it is a gag is not lost on me. It still informs us that Nami and Robin either become oblivious morons if their maternal instinct is triggered or they actively consent to being fondled by a child. Either way, the gag doesn't reflect well on them.

Edit: and for the record, it has nothing to do with finding the joke funny or not. A lot of people also assume that if you take something seriously, you must not be able to laugh at it. If you thought it was funny, that's great, but that doesn't divorce it from meaning either.

 

[Man God]

Don't forget that the joke also extends to Chopper.

 

[Veelk]

Faulty comparison again. Chopper is legitimately innocence (which he shouldn't be, since isn't he like 15? Puberty should be well underway. Maybe it's because he's a reindeer and is all about dem does) and uninterested in Nami and Robin as sexual beings. This kid is and he's pretty blatant about it.

Oh, and not to mention how it reflects on Sanji and Usopp for allowing their friends to continue getting molested in ignorance.

 

[Russ T]

So...a joke character?

No. Like a character who, givenw hat he's done, it wouldn't make sense for a thing to happen.

Like, how do you define "joke"? Is it "wouldn't make sense for a thing to happen"? because if so I guess I can see why you keep insisting whatever it is you're insisting.

 

[Cloud Strife]

It's amazing to me how people think that something being a joke divorces it from any sort of meaning. That it is a gag is not lost on me. It still informs us that Nami and Robin either become oblivious morons if their maternal instinct is triggered or they actively consent to being fondled by a child. Either way, the gag doesn't reflect well on them.

Edit: and for the record, it has nothing to do with finding the joke funny or not. A lot of people also assume that if you take something seriously, you must not be able to laugh at it. If you thought it was funny, that's great, but that doesn't divorce it from meaning either.

"Some people"? C'mon, dude.

Sometimes gags don't have real logical reasons for happening, which is why I compared it to Nami harming Luffy as a joke when by the series own standards it would be impossible. In this way you can see how women as intelligent as Nami or Robin can suddenly become oblivious for the sake of humor.

Whether you or I find it funny or not is irrelevent (I don't for the record). It's there because it's meant to be a nonsensical joke, not an actual thing that's meant to be taken seriously (maternal instinct?).

What I think you want to talk about it why it needs to be there in the first place which is different than why it's actually there.

 

[Cloud Strife]

No. Like a character who, givenw hat he's done, it wouldn't make sense for a thing to happen.

Like, how do you define "joke"? Is it "wouldn't make sense for a thing to happen"? because if so I guess I can see why you keep insisting whatever it is you're insisting.

All I'm saying is that Usopp isn't entirely a joke character like Buggy. His entire character development is turning him from a joke character to a strong warrior. Therefore, Usopp getting something like CH would make sense later on, and disagreeing that it isn't possible I can only imagine is because people think he isn't mean to be taken seriously.

 

[Russ T]

All I'm saying is that Usopp isn't entirely a joke character like Buggy.

Good! Neither am I and neither was the guy you took issue with! Seems like we're in agreement, then!

 

[Veelk]

"Some people"? C'mon, dude.

Sometimes gags don't have real logical reasons for happening, which is why I compared it to Nami harming Luffy as a joke when by the series own standards it would be impossible. In this way you can see how women as intelligent as Nami or Robin can suddenly become oblivious for the sake of humor.

Whether you or I find it funny or not is irrelevent (I don't for the record). It's there because it's meant to be a nonsensical joke, not an actual thing that's meant to be taken seriously (maternal instinct?).

What I think you want to talk about it why it needs to be there in the first place which is different than why it's actually there.

Your kind of falling prey to exactly what I'm talking about. Whether it needs to be there is a discussion on the jokes necessity might be good to have, but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the meaning the gag itself carries.

Yes, I know Oda probably meant to be "just a joke" and carry no further implications than that, but that's an age old excuse that has never flown. Authorial intentions only go so far. That's why aces tattoo had to be changed. Oda meant it to mean one thing, but it means another. That's why everyone cringes at Usopp's afro comment in Davy Beck. That's why you can no longer casually use 'gay' on gaf to negatively describe a thing, even if you do not have an intentionally homophobic bone in your body. There are plenty of jokes that don't fly in public, even when they are legitimately meant as just jokes, because they contain unpalatable meaning.

So I say again: being a joke (or otherwise merely intended as "just a joke" ) does not deprive it of meaning. The meaning of the momonosuke gag has some bad implications for pretty much everyone involved. As of now, I have issued no objections to it being included, I'm just calling for a discussion of its meaning.

 

[Cloud Strife]

Good! Neither am I and neither was the guy you took issue with! Seems like we're in agreement, then!

Yeah, I probably misunderstood (usually happens).

<3

 

[Cloud Strife]

Your kind of falling prey to exactly what I'm talking about. Whether it needs to be there is a discussion on the jokes necessity might be good to have, but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the meaning the gag itself carries.

Yes, I know Oda probably meant to be "just a joke" and carry no further implications than that, but that's an age old excuse that has never flown. Authorial intentions only go so far. That's why aces tattoo had to be changed. Oda meant it to mean one thing, but it means another. That's why everyone cringes at Usopp's afro comment in Davy Beck. That's why you can no longer casually use 'gay' on gaf to negatively describe a thing, even if you do not have an intentionally homophobic bone in your body. There are plenty of jokes that don't fly in public, even when they are legitimately meant as just jokes, because they contain unpalatable meaning.

So I say again: being a joke (or otherwise merely intended as "just a joke" ) does not deprive it of meaning. The meaning of the momonosuke gag has some bad implications for pretty much everyone involved. As of now, I have issued no objections to it being included, I'm just calling for a discussion of its meaning.

Alright.

 

[Russ T]

Yeah, I probably misunderstood (usually happens).

<3

Is cool.

I feel bad for Buggy, though, and kind of wish he'd evolve past being a joke. D:

 

[Man God]

Is cool.

I feel bad for Buggy, though, and kind of wish he'd evolve past being a joke. D:

!

He's the most powerful and feared Warlord of the Sea!

He's close, personal friends with Emperor Shanks!

He broke out of the most secure facility on the planet and into the second most secure facility in the same day!

He sailed under the most famous pirate of his era, Gol D. Roger!

 

[Cloud Strife]

Still waiting on the emotionally scarring flashback where Buggy and Shanks are real brothers and Buggy will awaken his DF when Shanks dies and become a Yonkou for real.

Believe.

 

[Russ T]

!

He's the most powerful and feared Warlord of the Sea!

He's close, personal friends with Emperor Shanks!

He broke out of the most secure facility on the planet and into the second most secure facility in the same day!

He sailed under the most famous pirate of his era, Gol D. Roger!

D:!

 

[pelicansurf]

Your kind of falling prey to exactly what I'm talking about. Whether it needs to be there is a discussion on the jokes necessity might be good to have, but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the meaning the gag itself carries.

Yes, I know Oda probably meant to be "just a joke" and carry no further implications than that, but that's an age old excuse that has never flown. Authorial intentions only go so far. That's why aces tattoo had to be changed. Oda meant it to mean one thing, but it means another. That's why everyone cringes at Usopp's afro comment in Davy Beck. That's why you can no longer casually use 'gay' on gaf to negatively describe a thing, even if you do not have an intentionally homophobic bone in your body. There are plenty of jokes that don't fly in public, even when they are legitimately meant as just jokes, because they contain unpalatable meaning.

So I say again: being a joke (or otherwise merely intended as "just a joke" ) does not deprive it of meaning. The meaning of the momonosuke gag has some bad implications for pretty much everyone involved. As of now, I have issued no objections to it being included, I'm just calling for a discussion of its meaning.

I have no comment on this topic. I just want to say that you are a very interesting person.

 

[Veelk]

I have no comment on this topic. I just want to say that you are a very interesting person.

Thanks.... I think

 

[Imperial Bishop]

Random thought after reading some old volumes. Regarding how armament haki started being drawn black after the timeskip. Common interpretation is just that before the timeskip it was mysterious and secret kinda, but after it became a more normal thing, so Oda started drawing it so we'd know it was being used. But it's kinda inconsistent when you consider people like Vergo with his all-black mode being pretty distinctive. This visual isn't just for the reader.

What if the actual reason is that black armament haki is just unrefined. A sloppy technique of sorts, a representation of raw power and nothing more. But when you're a true master of it, it no longer shows? Who used it early on in non-black form? Reileigh for one, obviously a true master. Sentoumaru, the "most defensive man in the world." Surely Mihawk has used it. Garp, always hurting Luffy through his rubber. Men with this caliber of martial ability, I could believe they've "transcended" the black sheen.

This falls apart if there are some clear examples of characters that used non-black armament haki in the past who were decidedly scrubby, but I can't really think of any off the top of my head.

Not necessarily. Boo used the invisible type of armament haki on Bobby Funk.

I still believe Hardening is an advanced form of armament haki that only those who can use haki can perceive.
It could be why you never see non-haki users commenting on the black metallic appearance of certain haki users.

 

[Man God]

I sincerely believe that armament Haki is in fact, invisible like the other forms. Only people trained in haki can see it. Oda just gave us the sight beyond sight with the timeskip.

 

[MetroidPrimeRib]

I sincerely believe that armament Haki is in fact, invisible like the other forms. Only people trained in haki can see it. Oda just gave us the sight beyond sight with the timeskip.

That used to be true when Rayleigh first used it, the blackening was added later, probably as a visual thing. There's no reason what you say can't be true though, dunno if anyone has ever given a recount of how it looks in the series. For Luffy at least it makes sense, it's like vulcanized rubber. For others not so much, it doesn't bother me a whole lot though.

 

[Veelk]

It being visible only to haki users is probably the most plausible theory I heard on the change, but it doesn't make gel with the manga's third person omniscient narration.

 

[Imperial Bishop]

The manga narrator seems to appear erratically, usually when big events happen in the world.

 

[Veelk]

The manga narrator seems to appear erratically, usually when big events happen in the world.

How do you figure?

 

[Imperial Bishop]

Just something I've noticed. He appeared after Ace and Blackbeard's fight, after the Straw Hats were separated, after Marineford.
I think there was some narration at the end of Skypiea and Thriller Bark. I'm not too sure.

 

[jbug617]

I still hope to see more reactions from around the world (Strawhats hometown, Alabasta, Dragon etc) to the news of what happened at Dressrosa.

 

[Veelk]

Just something I've noticed. He appeared after Ace and Blackbeard's fight, after the Straw Hats were separated, after Marineford.
I think there was some narration at the end of Skypiea and Thriller Bark. I'm not too sure.

Oh, I see, you meant the narration boxes. That wasn't what I was talking about, or rather that's only a small piece of it.

I mean the narration, how the story is told. From what I can tell, when characters have flashbacks, we're seeing what literally happens, not a characters memories that would naturally be colored and morphed by time and experienced, or even their present, which would have the perspective skewed according to a character's bias'. We see perspectives of past characters of the flashbacks that the character that is supposedly remembering them couldn't possibly be aware of. And when the narration boxes come up, they usually are just reporting facts with neutrality. "This is character X, bounty Y, on Z island" or "Whitebeard took 64 stab wounds, 134 gunshots..." and so on. Chopper's entire flashback takes place in the split second of Luffy punching out a guy, literally faster than thought of that detail can be recollected, implying time is literally put on pause, rather than the character recollecting the event as a natural part of the story.

So what I'm saying is that the narration of OP isn't taking place behind any particular character and seems to be giving us the literal truth of what happens. The "Haki can only be seen by those who know Haki" theory would only make perfect sense if we were seeing the story of OP from Luffy's perspective, or even a limited third person perspective. Something that is meant to influence the truth of what we are seeing. But if it's a omniscient third person narration, which, as the name suggest, then the narration would be fully aware of Haki from chapter 1 and have no real mechanism to hide it, since as the name implies, it's already aware of it, even if none of the characters are.

 

[Man God]

You can still have an omniscient point of view into the world yet choose to disguise something until it becomes plot relevant.

If I'm honest with myself I'd actually prefer if Haki was still invisible, I don't really like how it looks most of the time.

 

[Veelk]

You can still have an omniscient point of view into the world yet choose to disguise something until it becomes plot relevant.

If I'm honest with myself I'd actually prefer if Haki was still invisible, I don't really like how it looks most of the time.

An omniscient narration doesn't disguise things. At best, it rearranges them for the highest possible drama, which this one occasionally does (for example, it concealed the goal the Luffy-Law alliance made by deciding to go after Kaido until after the arc and is in general particular about where it reveals the flashbacks) but it doesn't just outright lie to you, which this would be. That would make it an unreliable narrator, and unreliable narrators by nature have an agenda. That's just not how OP's narrator seems to work by and large, or else this would be the sole, and somewhat jarring instance of it. If it's objective were to build highest mystery, it'd be much more in it's style to have the black haki appear, with none of the characters commenting on it, making the reader the only one who notices it, until it's explained.

Edit: reviewing the definitions, I miswrote. I meant objective narrator, not omniscient. Though the objective narrator is usually omniscient (and I think OP's is), an omniscient narrator can be a little subjective (in terms of offering judgement and such on characters, and though they pretty by and large don't decieve the reader, they're atleast capable of being unreliable). But what I meant is that OP's narrator is an objective third person, so same difference, I just said omniscient where I really meant objective. .

 

[Neoriceisgood]

For what it's worth Veelk, I get your points on this last page.

 

[cw_sasuke]

!

He's the most powerful and feared Warlord of the Sea!

He's close, personal friends with Emperor Shanks!

He broke out of the most secure facility on the planet and into the second most secure facility in the same day!

He sailed under the most famous pirate of his era, Gol D. Roger!

Facts only - gotta love Buggy.

Cant wait to see him post time skip...i love this dude. During the War when he tought for a couple moments that he could take on WB...man i lost my shit and had to laugh out loud. Oda managed his arc perfect so far.

Hail Buggy-Sama !!

 

[Foolworm]

He does not have conqueror's haki.

Simple as that.

Zoro has a different but somewhat similar ability in his killing intent, something he shares with Mihawk. You don't have to read any subtext regarding conqueror's haki into it - it's an ability that nobody seems to have given any attention to, so I thought I'd point it out.

 

[Raonak]

I do think there's a possibility that another strawhat will get conquers haki, if only for the fact that luffy already perfected for the start of the new world, when it seems like such a late-game powerup. I can definitely see another strawhat unlocking it near the end of the series.

Zoro would be a shoe-in, based on the fact that rayleigh has it, but he honestly doesn't need it, it wouldn't feel like that much of an acomplishment.

But ussop. I can definitely see ussop getting it. He would benefit greatly from it, he has trouble with close quaters combat, being a sniper and all, so conquers would fit him perfectly.
Plus even though he's a coward, he's got a lot of willpower.

So I was reading up on momosuke and something occurred to me. The whole thing with Momosuke's underhanded sexual molestation of Nami and Robin via the childhood innocence facade. Are they aware?

Like, he's pretty blatant about it. Are they just made into idiots by maternal instinct, or are they playing along and just into the whole Shota con thing. Cuz I honestly don't know which interpretation is worse.

I think you're seriously overthinking it.
These are fictional anime characters drawn at the author's whim. he wants to show comedic effect by getting sanji and brook jealous. They are simply being blinded by the presumed innocence. It's greatly exaggerated as everything in manga. It doesn't really have anything to do with maternal instincts or anything.

Comedic effect and fanservice tend to explain a lot.
Why is it that majority of important female characters are slender and have gigantic tits? Is it some meta narrative that only beautiful women are successful? No. It's just fanservice.

 

[LonelyGreyWolf]

Zoro has a different but somewhat similar ability in his killing intent, something he shares with Mihawk. You don't have to read any subtext regarding conqueror's haki into it - it's an ability that nobody seems to have given any attention to, so I thought I'd point it out.

That's because it has nothing to do with this. It's not haki, it's overwhelming power and use of fear and superiority. Monet did not get defeated like a person effected by conqueror's haki would be.

 

[Majukun]

Not necessarily. Boo used the invisible type of armament haki on Bobby Funk.



I still believe Hardening is an advanced form of armament haki that only those who can use haki can perceive.
It could be why you never see non-haki users commenting on the black metallic appearance of certain haki users.

nope..Zephir was called "black arm zephir" for obvious reasons..so everyone was able to see his hardening

 

[Foolworm]

That's because it has nothing to do with this. It's not haki, it's overwhelming power and use of fear and superiority. Monet did not get defeated like a person effected by conqueror's haki would be.

I'm more interested if Jinbei has it. Does Zoro have observation haki?

 

[LonelyGreyWolf]

I'm more interested if Jinbei has it. Does Zoro have observation haki?

Yeah, Luffy, Zoro and Sanji have observation haki. They all used it on Fishman Island

 

[Foolworm]

Yeah, Luffy, Zoro and Sanji have observation haki. They all used it on Fishman Island

I can't tell Mihawk's innate abilities from haki. His intimidate ability seems to stand in for conquerer, his hawkseye ability for observation and his feats of swordsmanship for armament. It makes him unique and a better character for it.

Since haki was explained, people have been explaining away all sorts of abilities as haki based, which is a bit sad. I'd like to see a bit more of Rokushiki or Okama Kenpo.

 

[RomanceDawn]

That's because it has nothing to do with this. It's not haki, it's overwhelming power and use of fear and superiority. Monet did not get defeated like a person effected by conqueror's haki would be.

See I'm not entirely sure. Zoro's comment on Fishman Island about needing a new captain if Luffy couldn't pull of CoC the way he did make me think twice. With Monet, she was intimidated into oblivion, I think that was an application of CoC within an actual fight. We won't know for sure for a while yet but with the way Oda likes to drop hints and such I feel like this is the case.

I argued Sanji and Zoro had Haki during Fishman island. Oda had given us plenty of hints but some people wouldn't have it until Luffy outright said it on Punk Hazard.

Sanji is the parallel to Zoro and always will be. Luffy's right hand and his left hand. Even their designs compliment each other, you've got a right eye'd demon and a left eye'd devil. Both will have CoC by the series end I am absolutely certain. Them and Usopp.

 

[Squishy3]

Zoro's comment is more like "if he couldn't do at least that after two years spent training, he doesn't deserve to be captain."

I don't think it's an admittance that Zoro has conqueror's haki, he was there when Luffy used it to knock out Duval's bull and probably later learned that it was conqueror's haki sometime in the 2 years after.

 

[LonelyGreyWolf]

See I'm not entirely sure. Zoro's comment on Fishman Island about needing a new captain if Luffy couldn't pull of CoC the way he did make me think twice. With Monet, she was intimidated into oblivion, I think that was an application of CoC within an actual fight. We won't know for sure for a while yet but with the way Oda likes to drop hints and such I feel like this is the case.

I argued Sanji and Zoro had Haki during Fishman island. Oda had given us plenty of hints but some people wouldn't have it until Luffy outright said it on Punk Hazard.

Sanji is the parallel to Zoro and always will be. Luffy's right hand and his left hand. Even their designs compliment each other, you've got a right eye'd demon and a left eye'd devil. Both will have CoC by the series end I am absolutely certain. Them and Usopp.

I disagree entirely.

And regarding your second paragraph, like I mentioned above, Zoro and Sanji used haki on Fishman Island so there's nothing to argue about there, really.

 

[cw_sasuke]

Guys...whats with Conqueror's Haki obsession the last pages ? The other Strawhats wont get it and Oda didnt drop any kind of hints why we should expect this. Talk about diminishing returns...this Haki is supposed the special and very rare and some of you act as if the others getting it was a given. Its not like the other Strawhats need it ot have issues taking out Fodder.

We know a handful of people who have...this isnt your standard powerup.

 

[RomanceDawn]

I'm just saying Oda had given us clear hints about Zoro and Sanji's haki without actually saying it until Punk Hazard. I was pointing out those hints long before it was confirmed and I think Zoro's CoC hints were the examples I gave above. We'll just have to wait and see.

At CW, we already know through Chinjao that there are plenty of people in the One Piece world with CoC. I don't really care either way who does or does not get it, I just feel like Oda has been setting it up for other Straw Hats for years now.

 

[Tathanen]

The ONLY other strawhat I feel has a chance to get conqueror's haki is Zoro, and only because of the Rayleigh parallel.

 

[LonelyGreyWolf]

I'm just saying Oda had given us clear hints about Zoro and Sanji's haki without actually saying it until Punk Hazard. I was pointing out those hints long before it was confirmed and I think Zoro's CoC hints were the examples I gave above. We'll just have to wait and see.

Well, I also pointed out those "hints" long before it was "confirmed" (although it clearly was), and I say Zoro didn't use conqueror's haki, so that gives me as much credibility as anyone. Like you said though, we'll just have to wait and see, but I'm 100% confident that Zoro didn't use conqueror's haki during Punk Hazard, and up until this point I'm 100% confident he has never used it.

While I don't think he'll ever get it, this is where we enter areas of speculation. I can totally see why people think Zoro will get it one day and it's impossible to say at this point, whether he'll get it, but I personally don't think so. Wouldn't make sense. We'll see though.

 

[More Fun To Compute]

Some youtuber made a couple of highly speculative theory videos about haki or something.

Anyway here's something else if we are bored of who gets what haki.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dumtwo0Xrw

Do you think that Gol D Roger himself is going to have a conversation with Luffy in some way at Raftel? Like some Obi Wan more powerful than you can imagine stuff?