gundamkyoukai
Member
I understand just find and i also understand that jokes \gag are done at the expensive of the universe logic or what ever else you want to call it .
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One Piece Manga |OT| ZEHAHAHAHA! The Name of this Age is Blackbeard!
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I understand just find and i also understand that jokes \gag are done at the expensive of the universe logic or what ever else you want to call it .
igordennis
Member
Yes i agree. This really shouldnt be such a big debate.
If you understand it, then you can easily tell if the universe is coherent through a joke, which it evidently isn't.
gundamkyoukai
Member
Well i guess by that definition tons of anime\manga etc etc not coherent .
Probably, I guess. I wouldn't know, I don't read half as much manga as I used to. I. Do know one piece goes especially far with it though, and its a very glaring flaw in otherwise fairly good worldbuilding (which might make it stand out more, but then again the inconsistencies also go beyond gags, so...)
Tathanen
Get Inside Her!
I think ya'll are overusing the word "coherent" here. The jokes in one piece are absolutely consistent, which I think is the more important distinction. The "why" behind women being disinterested in stereotypically masculine pasttimes isn't a particularly interesting discussion, it's pretty cut and dry, and feeds handily into the general "man's dream" thread that carries throughout One Piece as a whole.
The first Docking joke was used based on Robin´s personality, sure. We can all agree on that. The following robot jokes was just a deviation of this first joke, it works more like a callback and also as a joke on its own, because whenever a robot is showed men get EXTREMELY excited, meanwhile girls are showed not excited at all.
So here is another reason why: Its called a comedy duo, that is a staple in Japanese comedy, you have the funny man and the straight man. The funny man is the one doing wacky stuff and the straight man is the one calling out him on them, acting outraged. This is fairly common in other cultures too, but in Japan its used a lot more. The reaction of the straight man makes the actions of the funny man, well, more funny, because now you can laugh both at the joke AND at the reaction of the joke.
In One Piece, this role was given originally to Nami and sometimes to Usopp, whenever another strawhat did something funny they would be there to provide a snap remark about how wrong is for them to be so wacky. Later on we got introduced to Robin, who is usually not a straight man, but given that she is the most serious of all the characters her reactions are also funny when she does show them, precisely because is so unusual of her.
Now, back to the robot joke, the reaction of the boys for robots is made more funny because of the lack of reactions by the girls. because of simple contrast rules. As a reader we will think the following:
1)Why do men find robots so awesome? Robots are cool but their reactions is too much, that is a funny face they are making.
2)Oh wow, why are the girls finding robots NOT awesome at all? That makes no sense, robots are cool, but their indifferent faces are funny too.
Both are exaggerated reactions, it is of note that Luffy, Chopper and Usopp are usually the ones that lose their shit when they see robots, while the other males are shown happy or slightly excited about it.
And as Worldbuilding it makes sense too: Nami went from calling out everything, to acting all frustrated because she can´t keep the boys for acting like idiots, and, finally, to just put a face of total indifference. Robin has mostly always been indiferent that way, with some complacent laughs in between.
Nah, coherent is definitely the word. If one of Luffys gags was that he was a nuclear physics hobbiest, and Oda played that up a number of times throughout the series, it would be consistent, but still incoherent with his background and personality if it was never explained. Consistent is whether it repeats itself, coherent is whether it makes sense.
Again, not to be dismissive, but the humor of the joke was never lost on me. I understand what's suppose to be funny about it just fine. What I'm missing is the root cause of the reactions that lead to the humor. You can't really argue this is character centric anymore between the sbs and how it has women regardless of personality being indifferent and men regardless of personality being excited over a subject that isn't inherently wacky. It's no longer about explaining why Nami or Robin don't find robots awesome, but why women as a whole don't.
Tathanen
Get Inside Her!
Sure, but coherence in this instance is kind of a moot point. It's not that these are "wacky" topics, it's that they're masculine topics. Robots, ninjas, stereotypical adolescent boy interests. Excited-like-kids male reaction and indifferent female reaction is perfectly coherent, and again, in keeping with One Piece's overall masculine slant. I don't know where the confusion is here.
Because we're talking about internal worldbuilding, not our real life stereotypes. Which are also wrong, btw. They're societal constructs, not biological rules. There are people who still insist that girls aren't interested in superheroes or video games that have hard data proving them wrong. Even if the stereotype exists in OP world, it shouldn't actually be true. But ignoring that, my question is why would this world and especially these female characters, who follow man's dreams anyway and are therefore Masculine from the series frame of logic, be unanimunanimously disinterested in something as relevant to what they do as robots and ninjas. They aren't flights of fiction to them, they're real life roles. Robin in particular had a more similar role to a ninja than any of the rest of the crew. That's the incoherence. In the world of OP. If anything, that makes even less sense than them being uninterested in general wackiness
LonelyGreyWolf
Banned
I think I should just stop responding to Veelk's posts forever. That's probably for the best for all parties involved.
Tathanen
Get Inside Her!
Well now we're entering an absurd place where you're suggesting a fictional work suffers if every single iota of the motivations of its cultures are not explained. No fiction does this. Where there are gaps, we, the readers, are left to fill those holes with our own cultural assumptions. Otherwise you end up with ridiculous questions like "why do they all speak Japanese" and "why is Sanji a French Chef in a world with no France." You love to try and critique One Piece in utter isolation, as if it's not written by an author, as if it's a literal real place with no connection to reality, but this line of criticism leaves only vapid questions with obvious answers that you just can't accept.
I wouldn't say those are ridiculous questions at all. Many authors base their world's on real life cultures, but still internally justify those practices. Oda does good with his worldbuilding, but there are authors that go to the depths of detail I am describing.
But more to the point, look at my edit. Going beyond the fact that these are stereotypes, beyond the fact that stereotypes are more inaccurate than not, it wouldn't make much sense for these women in particular, who follow masculine dreams anyway, to have zero interest in the subjects so relevant to what they actually do. It would be like aa physicist showing no interest in the LHC.
For the record, it would be impossible to explain everything explicitly and maintain an actual story. However, an explanation should always exist, somewhere. If it is utterly devoid of explanation, then yeah, I say the work suffers.
I wouldn't say either one has a 'masculine' dream for a start.
Basically, Robin and Nami don't like robots. There. That's all the explanation that's needed on that topic.
Sbs explicitly says otherwise, unfortunately. I know some will say it doesn't count because since Oda sometimes jokes there that apparently means none of his answers can be taken straight forward, but I'm of the opinion it's generally obvious when he's joking vs seriously responding, especially when views and terminology is reflected within the series itself.
Tathanen
Get Inside Her!
And in some cases, less is more. I'd argue that worldbuilding "goodness" isn't defined by volume of exposition. Sometimes actions are left open to interpretation, and it's up to the reader to connect the dots. In a half-comedy manga, this seems pretty reasonable. Maybe if Oda were writing Nausicaa or Akira I'd be looking for some more exposition.
Well that's the gag, isn't it? That's why it's a joke. Despite who these women are, they are united with all of womenkind in their total disinterest. And despite who the no-time-for-jokes Trafalgar Law is, he is united with all of mankind in their starry-eyed child-like interest.
gundamkyoukai
Member
Seeing Law slowly getting corrupt by the SH is awesome .
It always funny when the straight man or the disinterest join the party
Cloud Strife
Member
This again?
Guys, Nami is clearly the strongest character in the series. She beat up Luffy with her refined Haki from Day fucking one and can solo Zoro, Sanji, and Luffy all at once with her scolding fist.
After all, the joke has to make sense according to the universe its set in.
Guys, Nami is clearly the strongest character in the series. She beat up Luffy with her refined Haki from Day fucking one and can solo Zoro, Sanji, and Luffy all at once with her scolding fist.
After all, the joke has to make sense according to the universe its set in.
AHHHHHHHHHHHH
Sibersk Esto
Banned
Brook
gundamkyoukai
Member
BB for certain .
Sibersk Esto
Banned
We did kind of name the thread after Blackbeard's
LonelyGreyWolf
Banned
All laughs are great. Except for Perona's.
Wapol has a kick-ass laugh.
Wapol has a kick-ass laugh.
Neoriceisgood
Member
That poster needs more Enel.
For some reason I've always been partial to Moria and Perona's laughs... and I don't even care much for Moria.
I'm also reminded (as I've been rewatching the anime) that during the Arlong arc, Luffy essentially makes fun of Arlong and then does Arlong's laugh.
Why is there just one female character on the image
Because Miss Valentine is cool but oh dear that laugh.
Crocodile.
LonelyGreyWolf
Banned
What if one had sex with Ivankov, and then right in the middle of it, he/she changed gender? That would be weird.
MrSaturn99
Member
The best gags are always the ones that set a hilarious contrast, where an amazing character trait is immediately squashed by a ridiculous quirk.
Pica and Kanjuro are the best recent examples of this.
Fuck, now I'm going to be thinking of the implications of this all day.
Neoriceisgood
Member
That's a fetish.
LonelyGreyWolf
Banned
What if one had sex with Bonney, and then right in the middle of it, she changes her age? That could turn something beautiful into something horribly wrong and illegal in the blink of an eye.
Again, that is a fetish.
Duuuuuuuuude.
I undestand your confusion, and to be honest I can see how you can make this argument, but its based on the notion that the SBS are all serious answers, where we know they are not always serious. That SBS mentioned is also played for laughs. The whole concept is played for laughs because of the simplicity of it. Boys find it awesome, girls not, its simple., that in itself is its justification. Its dumb, and that is why it works.
gundamkyoukai
Member
Well her turning into a 85 year old grandma also horribly wrong lol
Why. Are old people not allowed to love? Nothing illegal about that.
gundamkyoukai
Member
I know ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Your mistaking exposition for worldbuilding. Not the same thing by any margin. No author I read has ever literally just info dumped all his worldbuilding every time he got to a new town, encountered a new culture, etc. They have, however, worldbuilt ahead of time, so you can see these norms in practice, with inferential clues as to how it makes sense within the context of the world. That's why I even bring this up as a discussion point. Everyone here seems to think I'm out to kick One Piece in the balls, and sometimes I am, but I'm fucking delighted when someone actually manages to explain something I had initially mistaken. For example, that fly explanation you gave. With the much better translation, the joke made far more sense than what I read. So I'm looking for in universe explanations of why gender roles would develop this way.
As for it being a comedy manga excusing it, Terry Pratchett would tell anyone to fuck off with that reasoning, and when Sir Pratchett says something, you take it as wisdom from god. Even he tried to tie his continuity errors under a cohesive rationale for why things that make no sense otherwise are the way they are. Thief of time wasn't a particularly elegant solution, but it was there. I see no reason why comedy should deserve special treatment that other forms of writing abide under.
*sigh*
I can't help but feel that, for we've written thus far, I can't seem to get the point across here.
I think we know SBS answers are not always facetious either. If the ones that cite this are indeed facetious, then why do they accurately reflect the things depicted in the manga? I don't feel it's a massive jump to conclude the gender views Oda espouses are accurate when the manga themes and events match them. And I don't say that as a criticism, just an observation. As you all probably know by now, I am fully pro death of the author, but it doesn't make anything Oda says meaningless.
But I feel we're going in circles at this point, so I'll stop responding on this topic from here on out. I don't think I can make my point any clearer except to say that humor that functions within the integrity of the world has always been in my experience the better form of humor, because it doesn't just make you laugh, but helps inform the reader on how things work in that world. It requires more cleverness on the author's part, a stronger imagination, and a more rigorous story. A joke is a joke. It can be funny, sure, but you should always want the most you can get out of it. A joke can be informative of a character or plot. A joke can be a story unto itself. That One Piece has no concerns about this and forgoes it, not just in it's humor but whenever it wants to break into rule of cool or whatever, that's lessens it for what is ultimately a cheap thrill. It would be a stronger narrative if Oda worked to maintain integrity of the world more than he does.
Is anyone getting the feeling that Zou might be nearly as long as Fishman Island? I don't really think it's going to be as short as people are saying, especially with those books on Oda's table suggest that there's a lot of stuff on Zou whether it's short or not.
I think Zou will lead into Wano in many ways with Kaidou's henchmen being on the island, but it won't necessarily be a short arc by any means.
Especially with the potential of reveals about the Void Century, and then there's the possibility that Luffy is going to be so enamored by the ninja he'll get the ninja to join his crew (remember he wanted Brook to join cause he was a talking skeleton and he thought that was cool, lol). There's a lot of likelihood that we might be stepping into a long arc, and if Jack is the antagonist he probably isn't a slouch like Caesar Clown or Hody was.
I think Zou will lead into Wano in many ways with Kaidou's henchmen being on the island, but it won't necessarily be a short arc by any means.
Especially with the potential of reveals about the Void Century, and then there's the possibility that Luffy is going to be so enamored by the ninja he'll get the ninja to join his crew (remember he wanted Brook to join cause he was a talking skeleton and he thought that was cool, lol). There's a lot of likelihood that we might be stepping into a long arc, and if Jack is the antagonist he probably isn't a slouch like Caesar Clown or Hody was.
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