Just because he appreciates and glorifies the honor behind the duel that doesn't mean he should then appreciate the convictions of every other character, also it takes time for Usopp to fully accept the fight because he even questions why when they start fighting. Then as he learns why he accepts the honor and conviction but still doesn't like violence overall.
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One Piece Manga |OT| ZEHAHAHAHA! The Name of this Age is Blackbeard!
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Just because he appreciates and glorifies the honor behind the duel that doesn't mean he should then appreciate the convictions of every other character, also it takes time for Usopp to fully accept the fight because he even questions why when they start fighting. Then as he learns why he accepts the honor and conviction but still doesn't like violence overall.
And again, if you make that separation, then it is the logical conclusion that Usopp must also respect the convictions by all these vile people. All conviction is is standing by your opinion whatever the opposition, and that applies to the vast majority of characters in OP. Otherwise, he's just being a hypocrite by not showering Arlong with praise when he heard how he fucked over Nami's village because of his convictions that humans were worthless.
The reason people don't do that is because separating the conviction to do a thing from the thing itself is not a reasonable position. If it were, we'd have to glorify all sorts of terrible stuff, from various forms of harassment to full out genocide, because all those things were done with very, very strong conviction.
While the dynamics of the grand line are constantly silly and I largely agree with you, I've always assumed that getting to Raftel isn't really a "oh you followed your log pose and now you got there" type deal. It's most likely hidden, since the Emperors and countless other pirates have been in the New World for some time now.
I'd just assume that, while we've seen plenty of weak-ass normal people in the Grand Line, becoming a pirate right out of the gate there is probably much tougher because of all the competition, so only the really strong ones get going... but that may or may not make them more likely to "find" raftel. People coming from the other seas have almost an incubation period before they enter.
But yeah, it's basically really dumb. Even dumber when you think about the Poneglyphs. Since there's multiple routes and you're pretty much stuck to one of them once you start, what if the Straw Hats just happened to take a route that didn't contain any poneglyphs?
More Fun To Compute
Member
What is admirable about Dorry and Brogy is their character. In a way their example to Usopp is that if you struggle without evil in your mind or heart you can become the sort of brave warrior that he dreams of. It's not enough to just have a goal and conviction. If inside you have decided that you are willing to do anything and compromise on any virtue to achieve your goal then it makes you fundamentally different to Usopp's ideal of a brave warrior of the sea.
Alabaster actually might not have been on their route since they used an eternal pose. Their log pose actually messed them up badly since little garden was supposed to take a year to fix. And technically skypiea isn't on any route while fishman is on every route.
Alabaster actually might not have been on their route since they used an eternal pose. Their log pose actually messed them up badly since little garden was supposed to take a year to fix. And technically skypiea isn't on any route while fishman is on every route.
With evil in your mind and heart? What evil? Who defines what it is? Simple malice? I mean, Arlong has a very strict ethos: Fishman - worthy of respect and decency. Humans - worthless. He never compromised on that belief. Same with Doflamingo: he is deserving of privilege because of his bloodline. Both of these characters would probably say the other one is evil for defying the natural order of things. Doffy would say a fishman should bow before a world noble. Arlong would say a human should bow before a Fishman. To catergorize anything as good or evil, you need to already pick a ethos to stick by.
It's very easy to just say "Be a good guy!" and act like that alone is enough to guide your actions, but when it's never explored what that actually means, then it's pretty one dimensional as a belief.
More Fun To Compute
Member
What counts as a virtue or not is an in depth discussion. Maybe we could try to work out what the virtues according to One Piece are but we can be pretty sure that things like slavery, racism and murder are not seen as virtuous actions. A simple of definition of a heart and mind that is virtuous is someone who has peace of mind. Not subject to extreme emotions or worry and able to make decisions with a clear head. So, by fairly simple conventional thinking, you can say that someone who makes decisions based on feelings of hate or contempt is showing that their thinking is, in a way, evil.
I guess that this is another of the many problems I have with One Piece's storytelling. There are clear cues from the presentation of a piece when we are supposed to hate a character for doing something, or admire them in turn. I despise this. It's difficult to describe why exactly, but it relates to immersion and believability of the world that I often talk about. Seeing someone do something I personally find awful, or something a character in the story finds awful and relate to them is one thing. Having the manga itself trying to coerce me into thinking it's bad is something else. The most recent example being how Doflamingo was depicted taking over Dressrosa in a flashback, with all the close ups of him laughing and the emphasis of the sadistic glee he took from it, they were so over the top that I felt Oda was trying to emotionally manipulate me. He does this with a lot of OP villains, and it never fails to make me not care in the slightest of the awful thing that is going on, because the scenerio immediately feels artificial and Oda trying to push a certain idea on me. I am naturally resistant to that push, whereas if he simply depicted this terrible thing as happening plainly, as it is, without trying to make sure I am supposed to think it's evil, I would be crushed by how awful it is on my own terms.
Anyway, back to the actual discussion, first off, we're not talking about what the metaphysical world of OP decides what virtues are, we're talking about what Usopp thinks they are, and we're given no reason to belief he has any strong feelings on slavery, racism, or murder. Hell, I doubt he even knows half the motivations of other characters, so no reason he shouldn't admire certain villains on principle even if he was against those things. Besides, there are villains who weren't fueled by hatred or contempt. Crocodile wasn't making decisions based on hatred. He was a businessman, or the closest one gets to one in OP, just trying to acquire an asset, Alabasta. His decisions came from an absence of compassion, but not hatred. Same with Doflamingo, atleast in certain parts. For example, I wouldn't say he hated King Riku or his family, he just needed his kingdom and had no qualms fucking with him over it. He's a hateful dude, but not towards Riku at the time of the flashback. So Usopp would say that Doflamingo was acting as a brave warrior at that particular point.
You're right that it's an in depth discussion, but that's essentially the point I'm making. It's an indepth topic that is discussed on a shallow level in the story. Perhaps because it's meant to be a childrens story, but then that brings me back to how it's promoting pointless violence over a stupid grudge as a good thing, and that's gross.
More Fun To Compute
Member
What Crocodile shows is a total disregard for the lives of people and their right to freedom. He cares about his popularity and his power. I think it's true that Crocodile is a good villain just because he isn't some guy who is barely holding onto his self control. But not caring about other people as you trample over them to get power is mostly seen as a sign of some sort of mental illness like psychopathy or not good for peace of mind. I think that with Crocodile there is the sort of impression that he is not really a happy character and still has motives that we don't really understand. On the other hand Doffy is just a piece of shit.
You're missing the point. You're exactly right that Crocodile has a disregard for other people but that does not mean he hates them or holds them in contempt, so he qualifies for virtuous peace of mind as you have outlined them. And for the record, I've actually studied sociopathy, and let me tell you that you will be hardpressed to find people who have a greater peace of mind. Full ASPD means you have zero fear response and are unable to connect your actions to farseeing consequences. As a result, any emotions you feel are generally shallow ones, including hatred. You will never find anyone who is more at peace with themselves than a full blown sociopath. They have no insecurities, no permanent grievances, no worries.
And as far as Doffy goes, he's a far more hateful individual, but that doesn't mean every action he takes is driven by hate. As I said, I don't think he had any strong feelings toward Riku whatsoever, but he goes by an ethos where he is privileged above other people, so he decided to take joy in tormenting him. Doflamingo too is at peace by your defintion of virtues. He's abiding by his belief system and does what he does not because of negative emotions, but the sheer joy he gets from causing others pain.
Both Doflamingo and Crocodile both lack regard for the people whom they attack, but having a regard for each other is not what Usopp admires about Dorry and Broggy. He admires that they hold to their convictions of how they should live their lives. So do Crocodile and Doflamingo. From how Usopp admires the giants, he should also give equal admiration to monsters like them.
More Fun To Compute
Member
Not holding people in contempt and trampling over them are incompatible positions. At best you can say that he is a psychopath and has no mental attachment to people either way. Naturally if people don't work the same way as most people then simple models break down just like a colour blind person can't see a visual image the same way.
Excessive joy is also an extreme emotion and naturally when it's attached to sadism or power hunger then it isn't seen as being virtuous to most people. Dorry and Brogy do not show excessive joy when they are fighting each other. They don't scream with glee when they hit each other or think they have an advantage.
You say that Usopp admires "conviction" but that is a simple interpretation. What he wants is some more abstract concept of the soul of a warrior. A warrior has the conviction to keep on fighting but we can assume that what he mainly wants are the positive secondary characteristics not the negative ones. Probably one of the more obvious examples of a warrior with negative virtues is Akainu when compared to Dorry and Brogy. He has explosive rage, he shows no restraint, he is a bully, he is narrow minded. I could go on. Where as the giants were friendly and just showed that they were willing to fight respectfully.
Eh, sorta. Contempt can just be feeling that people are beneath consideration so yeah, technically it can, but colloquially, it usually means that there is some deserving of scorn. Doflamingo feels contempt for others in the sense that he scorns them, but Crocodile just doesn't hold them to any regard at all. It is an utter lack of feeling, rather than an application of negative feeling, but you can trample over them with both, but I don't consider contempt to be necessary to trample over someone.
Hell, at some points, it's just a matter of pure pragmatism. The google definition of contempt is this: the feeling that a person or a thing is beneath consideration, worthless, or deserving scorn. You could theoretically be considerate of someone, not consider them worthless or deserving of scorn, yet still trample over them because you want something more than what they are worth to you. That would be regarding them as worth less than the objective your achieving, but not wholly without worth or consideration or deserving of scorn. Not sure if something like that happened in the series though.
Usopp chose to admire Dorry and Broggy for their conviction, as according to the text. It says nothing about honor or compassion or restraint or anything like that. If you want to say it comes with all these other concepts of honor, you're just inferring it because Usopp is a 'good guy' and therefore would never do something as unvirtuous as all those other dudes. Maybe so, but that's not what the text says. All the text says is that Usopp admires their conviction to beat the living shit out of each other for a hundred years after they forgot what they were fighting about. So he's not admiring their restraint or respect for one another or anything like that, he's admiring their conviction to persist in pointless violence. That's all. It's the same thing how Luffy's philosophy is based on Shank's "You fuck with my friends, no matter what, you're going down", which sounds nice at first, but then you consider all the possible situations where that could make you the undeniable aggressor.
Is what Dorry and Broggy are doing worth admiring. I would say hell no. They're violent jackasses that spend all day getting into the same bar fight over and over. They're not malicious, I'll give you that, but that isn't a lifestyle to admire on any level in my opinion, and the conviction argument applies to some truly fucked up people if Usopp were to take it to it's logical conclusion. So Usopp is either wrong and simply stating he thinks the Giants are cool because he's naive (as someone suggested) or he's a hypocrite or simply not saying what he actually means. Either way, something doesn't fly here. Or else Usopp is secretly admiring the villains he comes across.
Cloud Strife
Member
Raftel is on another planet and if it's not come back in here and tell me the ideal way to catch, cook, and digest crow.
Sibersk Esto
Banned
I figured the idea behind Dorry and Broggy was that they were following the god of Elbaf's edict that quarrels were to be solved through combat, the idea being that the god would favor whoever was the victor.
In that situation, which one of them is going to say "let's stop this"? Who would quit, and essentially admit he was wrong, even if he doesn't believe it? And in another way, that would be disrespectful to the other one, to say that his viewpoint is meaningless enough to just drop.
In that situation, which one of them is going to say "let's stop this"? Who would quit, and essentially admit he was wrong, even if he doesn't believe it? And in another way, that would be disrespectful to the other one, to say that his viewpoint is meaningless enough to just drop.
They're definitely true believers of the religion, but that's not why they were fighting. They were fighting for the sheer pleasure of it.
I mean, they don't even remember why they're fighting. What is the point of a god's judgement when you don't even remember what it is they're judging? Not to mention how Dorry (or was it Broggy?) cried when eh finally got the better of the other giant. He was sad because the fight was over, that Elbaf's judgement had been rendered, before he found out of Mr. 3's interference.
But honestly, what I don't like about their situation is that it's a state of pure indulgence. These two guys like fighting, and have effectively spent 1/3 of their lives doing it over nothing on some remote island in the middle of fuck off no where. I don't believe in social responsibility per se, but I see this as a lifetime of pure indulgence. It's not something I'd commend at any level. At it's very best, this is like if someone just took an infinite supply of marijuana and spent the next 30 years smoking in some shack in the middle of the woods every day, doing nothing else productive.
pelicansurf
Needs a Holiday on Gallifrey
He's totally being a hypocrite, since I think what you're arguing against is exactly what's happening,
Sibersk Esto
Banned
I think there's a distinction to be made between people who kill and manipulate and treat people like dirt and two guys refusing to believe that they're wrong.
*sigh*
There can be. Obviously. But that's not a distinction Usopp is making when stating what he admires pure convictions for convictions sake.
And Dorry and Broggy aren't trying to prove anything by the point the strawhats arrive. You can't prove when you don't know the argument you're having. They're fighting for the sake of fighting, under the pretense of having had an argument.
wonder if elbaf is a sky island. remember that things seemed to grow taller at skypiea so that might be what helps support them. a normal island would likely exhaust its natural resources if thousands of giants live there. plus in jack and the beanstalk the giants lived up in the sky.
Little Garden was a normal island, and they survived for a hundred years.
There is little point in trying to figure out OP logistics.
Cloud Strife
Member
VEELK...!
Sibersk Esto
Banned
I think another point to consider is the conversation Brogy has with Usopp and Nami, where he states that giants desire an honorable death above all else, which means to die without tarnishing their pride. When Dorry stands up to face Brogy after being injured, he says that running away from being a fight that's begun is to no longer be a warrior, and by extension to no longer be himself.
A normal island that bred dinosaurs, which they eat.
A normal island that bred dinosaurs, which they eat.
That's not really new information. They're just reinstating that ending a fight, even if there is no point to it anymore, isn't honorable. Which again, has plenty of valid criticism to be had, but is instead brainlessly glorified, with Nami's criticisms handwaved away. The idea that you HAVE to see through every fight you started, even when you no longer believe in the fight is asinine.
Though you'd think there would be a Saintly Deathgiver of some kind of whatever from that religion. Some kind of holy martyr that mass murders as many of it's fellow giants as possible, giving everyone more of a chance to die as fast as possible, saving their pride from being tarnished. Or hell, go one further and strangle infants in their crib. Instant giant heaven for all.
Normal for the grand line. Also, it looks like they'd eat about 1 dinosaur every week, if they go ever day. There wouldn't be enough dinosaurs to sustain them for that long. Or maybe there would be. Maybe the dinosaurs have a rapid growth and reproduction cycle or something.
Though you'd think there would be a Saintly Deathgiver of some kind of whatever from that religion. Some kind of holy martyr that mass murders as many of it's fellow giants as possible, giving everyone more of a chance to die as fast as possible, saving their pride from being tarnished. Or hell, go one further and strangle infants in their crib. Instant giant heaven for all.
Normal for the grand line. Also, it looks like they'd eat about 1 dinosaur every week, if they go ever day. There wouldn't be enough dinosaurs to sustain them for that long. Or maybe there would be. Maybe the dinosaurs have a rapid growth and reproduction cycle or something.
Tathanen
Get Inside Her!
Well, I don't think he actually says that.
Usopp said:
From the start, it's not that he's exclusively admiring the fundamental concept of "conviction." He's admiring explicitly their conviction as honorable warriors. Thus his desire not to be a "man of conviction," but rather a "brave warrior." He absolutely does admire their conviction, but it's their conviction to conclude their warrior's duel, it's not just raw conviction devoid of context.
Right. The context to it, the definition of 'honorable men', is that he likes them for the fact that they live their lives how they want, even if that belief is as idiotic as to pointlessly beat the shit out of each other for hundreds of years.
He's essentially saying "They live by a their own belief system, which is what I want to do!"
My argument that that isn't something to admire. It's sounds okay on the surface, living a life by your own principles, but it falls apart when it's the mental framework that vile assholes like Doflamingo thrive in. Because it really is. If you were to go up and ask Doffy if he regrets the way he's lived, he'd say hell no and he'd do it all again. Doffy lives by his beliefs as much as the giants do, just with contempt of others, but that doesn't make him an unhonorable man when everyone can determine their own belief structure. If Doffy considers himself to be above others, then he's not doing anything wrong when he murders or deceives people, because he has that privileged as far as he's concerned. His honor is intact. I feel people getting hung up on the fact that Usopp wouldn't be cruel like Doffy or Croc or many others, but that doesn't change the fact that living by your own ethos regardless of anything else is a mental framework that sociopaths thrive upon. Usopp is framing "do the fuck you want regardless of reasons" as an wholly good framework of belief, even if it includes pointless violence, like the giants show. I'm not saying that's badly written because it's just characters within the manga acting out their own beliefs, but I nonetheless think this is a fucked up thing to promote as good. You need to be critical of the sort of convictions you have, and I think anyone who looks at Dorry and Broggy's fight would tell them they're being morons for continuing it to this extent.
So your basically saying that the concept of One Piece in general is stupid, because every single Strawhat aspires to be a honorable version of their trade the same with Usopp. One Piece is about the romance of the ideas and situation it doesn't have to make logical sense.
Sibersk Esto
Banned
Well Oda clearly subscribes to the Nietzschen idea of the Ubermensch
(I'm not joking, I think Oda really does like the idea and One Piece is his vision of it)
(I'm not joking, I think Oda really does like the idea and One Piece is his vision of it)
pelicansurf
Needs a Holiday on Gallifrey
You guys like arguing over semantics a lot. Or maybe just Veelk.
I'm saying Usopp is stupid and has a naive and romanticized idea of being a brave warrior of the sea if all he means by it is "Guy who does the fuck he wants". This is one of the few romanticized ideals that has been criticized a bit. Specifically by Robin's giant friend, who considers his own culture barbaric for stupid shit like what Dorry and Broggy pull.
I don't mind romanticized notions by characters, but I don't want those romanticized notions unchallenged by the realities that they imply. So yeah, in a lot of aspects, I find OP insufferable, but that's already well established by this point.
Cloud Strife
Member
Wanna talk about how big Zou's poop must be? What does it eat even?
Tathanen
Get Inside Her!
Well I mean what you were saying earlier, that you think it's shitty that he's glorifying two dudes beating the crap out of each other forever, I think that's certainly a valid opinion. But to your other point, I don't think his definition of "honorable" is exclusively that they lived by their beliefs. As you're saying, that's a terribly slippery slope, and he'd respect way too many awful people as a result of it.
I think he goes through a bit of a process here. He starts by admiring that they stick to their duel. Not just that they to "stick to anything," it's specifically the duel. From there he calls them men of honor, and says he wants to be a "brave warrior of the sea" and a "man of honor" like them. At this point there's been no talk whatsoever of just being proud of the way a person lives, he just likes that they've kept to this honorable duel. Which again, sure, I can understand why it seems dumb, but hey most of the people in One Piece are dumb, we all know that.
Then when countering Nami, he says he was just "thinking out loud." He's starting to put his thoughts together now. Without explicit reference to the giants, he says "I want to be a man who can be proud of the way he lives!" The situation with the giants has obviously inspired him to this conclusion, but he is not endorsing them when saying this. He goes on to make his die on an island comment, but at this point he's exclusively talking about himself. He's saying that, by being proud of the way HE lives, he'll be able to call himself a brave warrior of the sea. Based on his earlier comments about what he found admirable in their battle, it's "being a man of honor" that will make him "proud of the way he lives," which will have the end result of being a "brave warrior of the sea."
The pride in his life is the middleman between honorable man and brave warrior. It's not an exclusive glorification of living by your beliefs, his "honorable" requirement is what keeps this off the slippery slope. And he finds the giants to be honorable because they are exhibiting the behavior of "true warriors." I think you'd be hard pressed to, with what he's admiring here, identify Doflamingo or Crocodile as a "true warrior." At least by Usopp's definition. While they have conviction, sure, Usopp's definition of "warrior" is one that carries with it the mentality to see through to the end of a fair and honorable duel. Which is the act he is identifying, idolizing, and glorifying from the start. A fair duel that will be seen through to the end.
Sibersk Esto
Banned
But couldn't it be argued that you couldn't really be a pirate, especially in the One Piece universe, if you didn't hold those ideals?
What I really don't like about them is that they excluded all aspects of their lives except the duel. They've hermitted themselves away from their friends and family to a lonely island out in the middle of wherever so they can beat the shit out of each other. While this is obviously not malicious or destructive as the shit Croc or Doffy pull, it's still a crappy thing to do to your loved ones. It probably wouldn't bug me as much, because I have nothing against hermits on principle, but the cause of all this is so utterly shallow and pointless and it's wholly consumed their lives.
My point here is that, if pressed, I doubt anyone could actually justify Dorry and Broggy's duel. The only reason they do it is because they love pointlessly beating the shit out of each other every day. Not out of malice, it's just there thing. The fact that they aren't malicious or destructive toward others is something that I take into account, but this is still a crappy thing to do. Even if you want to argue that they have a right to what they want as long as they're not hurting anyone else, I would say your withdrawal from the world still has an impact on the world itself. For example, if I decided that all I wanted to do was heroine and went off to do it with an infinite supply, then I would be neither malicious nor destructive to anyone outside myself, but I'd still say it'd be a selfish and shitty thing to do. So while these guys are obviously not in the same league as Croc and Doffy, I do consider this to share several of the same qualities: Disregard for others, for reason, dangerous, for basic safety, all for a selfish indulgence... it's just not a good thing, even if they don't have the villainy of the other characters to bolster the negative traits they're engaging in.
So the fact that he gains inspiration from these assholes is what I consider gross, but Usopp wasn't really a point of confusion for me. I've long since acknowledged that I understand that Usopp has no interest in spreading misery and pain like Croc and Doffy do, or even being caught up in a pointless duel like the giants have. But gaining inspiration from this example is still nasty, and in the form that he says it. Which is natural. Like whoever said it before, he's a naive idiot, so 'live by your own principles', he's just thinking of his own moral code, not recognizing that the way he's defined it, people like Croc and Doffy fit in it too. It makes him stupid, but not in any way badly written for it.
Probably? I guess? What does that have to do with anything though?
everyday math
Banned
Having a bad case of One Piece withdrawals right now. I need my fix.
Tathanen
Get Inside Her!
It's pretty shitty, sure. I won't argue about the actual merits of what's going on here. But it's worth noting that what you've described is exactly what Usopp's father has done. He's gone off and abandoned his family, and allowed his life to be consumed by his dream to be a pirate. Contrary to what might seem reasonable, Usopp admires him for this. Perhaps that's what allows him to discard the side-effects the giants' duel has on their loved ones, former crew, etc. It's consistent with his character at least. The real question is why he's okay with his dad's behavior. But I think that's a discussion that's already come and gone in this thread.
There's nothing wrong with saying a person should be "proud of the way they lived." It's fairly positive, if generic, sentiment. A nice bit of self-affirmation. I don't think we need to add a caveat to every random inspirational line, like "do what makes you happy [unless you're a serial killer then don't]." Kinda dampens the effect.
Yeah, again, for the upteenth time, I'm not saying that this is a character trait that's badly written. It's just indicative that Usopp is pretty dumb when it comes to this. How you decide to take that idiocy, whether you find it endearing or whether it makes you want to kick his head over it, that's up to any individual reader.
I'm reminded of the sexism talk where you thought I must be advocating for censorship just because I demand for the nastier nature of the OP to be addressed, or atleast acknowledged. I wasn't then, and I'm not trying to get some kind of censor that makes sure everything is phrased in the least threatening way possible so as not to accidentally encourage beliefs I personally find unpalatable.
I'm not saying the message should be "do what makes you happy [unless you're a serial killer then don't]."
I remember that one of the most interesting pieces of Hunter X Hunter is the chimera arc where Gon had his typical "you hurt my friend, so now I'm pissed off as fuck with you". What separated Gon from many other shonen protagonists is that when he went that level, he got....scary. He almost killed the enemy as she was protecting a dying girl. He threatened to kill that dying girl if that enemy backtalked him. It was a moment that made me question what Gon was going through, what his mind process was, and how he worked. It made him interesting.
I would be very interested in seeing what happened with Luffy if he befriended a villain for once instead of the victim of the arc that hte big bad is tormenting, and instead felt obligated to engage with a helpless victim and how his "live with no regrets and help your friends" philosophy resolved itself. Or maybe if Sanji actually had to confront a woman whom he felt the need to fight back against, or else there would be dire consequences. Or if Usopp met someone who abandoned their family to death to achieve their dream, and have struggle with their own principles.
As I said, I like seeing romanticized ideals challenged. Put in situations where hte character is uncomfortable or questionable. The way OP presents it's story has their parts, the strawhats are always safe from any form of internal struggle. It makes them very boring and unbelievable characters. So, I'm not saying the message should be "do what makes you happy [unless you're a serial killer then don't]." I'm saying that "if you're going to go with "do what makes you happy" then go all the way with it, including serial killers". If you don't want to advocate serial killers while advocating "Do what you want", well, then you have to find some nuance to add to it or else you honestly acknowledge "Yeah, even if you're a serial killer. Go crazy!" I'm fine with either of those, because either makes you think about more deeply about that concept, because either you see characters disagreeing with it, or you do it by yourself.
What I don't find fine is idealizing something like this in a world like this, and then keeping it safe from the dangers of that idealization in practice. It just makes it a wholly unbelievable and artificial story to me. It's why I am so apathetic to every emotional moment OP tries to throw at me, it's never real.
Tathanen
Get Inside Her!
Well, again, I don't think Usopp is advocating "do what you want." That's not his goal, that's not his dream, it's just something he said he wanted for himself. He's not idolizing the giants because they're sticking to any random thing, he's idolizing them because of their follow-through on an honorable duel. That's it. He wants to be like them, and be proud of himself for having strived for that.
To your more general point about wanting to see the Straw Hats challenged on the consequences of their dreams or goals, I don't disagree, but I don't think Little Garden was the time for Usopp to have to deal with that. It was the foundation of his dream there, to a point. Setting him up for what he wants to pursue. I think it would definitely be interesting to have elements of that challenged, but that's more appropriate in the actual Elbaf arc I'd reckon.
...it probably won't happen, but yes.
How, precisely, do you distinguish "live how you want" vs "Live by your own ethos". As I said before, I agree that I don't get the impression that Usopp wanted a duel like the giants had. He wanted to have principles and abide by them. But he didn't particular state what principles those were, except 'honor', which is an extremely loose subject. "Honor" to a world noble is being able to do what he wants to commoners. Honor to Akainu means mass slaughter of pirates.
Usopp doesn't have to abide by the giants particular ethos, the point is that he admires them for sticking to their ethos regardless of reason or rationale (or more accurately lackthereof), which in turn inspires him to have his own code that he would abide by. That's the bit I find distasteful. You should have good cause to have the convictions you do, not just cuz. Because if merely sticking to a particular code of honor is admirable, then Usopp may disagree with Doflamingo's particular ethos, he would have to admire him for living by it, the same way he might disagree with the giant's fight, but has to admire them sticking to their principles.
It's been 800 chapters and more than halfway through the series and the closest thing that OP has come to this is the Ennies Lobby arc and maybe a small part of the Marineford arc. Otherwise, their confidence and conviction and certainty of their perspective never wavers. I doubt it's ever gonna happen in a meaningful way. Or atleast not in a way that overrides all the romanticization of it all.
SolVanderlyn
Thanos acquires the fully powered Infinity Gauntlet in The Avengers: Infinity War, but loses when all the superheroes team up together to stop him.
We need spoilers at least, and stat. It's getting a little claustrophobic in here.
Rafa=FedKilla
Banned
About 20 or more hours or so brah.
Tathanen
Get Inside Her!
He didn't say either of these things. He says "I want to be a man who can be proud of the way he lives," but he doesn't say it about the giants. For all we know he thinks they hate their lives. The only thing he HAS explicitly idolized is their duel. He loves that they are fighting so hard to protect their warriors' flags. The ONLY thing he has referenced is them being warriors, and them defending those flags.
It's not that they stick to "a" code of honor, it's this specific one. This warrior's honor. And living by a warrior's code of honor would make Usopp proud to have lived, no matter what ruinous effect it may have on his life.
pelicansurf
Needs a Holiday on Gallifrey
Veelk, do you want the manga to end with everyone dying and the final scene is just a tombstone on a hill with the engraving of "and this is why you don't become a pirate"? I think we've had this argument before and I'm about to hit the hay, but what do you want One Piece to be?
SolVanderlyn
Thanos acquires the fully powered Infinity Gauntlet in The Avengers: Infinity War, but loses when all the superheroes team up together to stop him.
God dammit, I thought it was Wednesday... oh well. 20 hours isn't that long.
Veelk is just argumentative and speculative by nature. It's a good trait to have, especially for a research minded person, but he tends to go overboard when given too much time to think.
Sorry to talk about you like you're not here, V. But your precision-oriented mind is a little too acute for the insanity of the OP world, at times.
Would make for some interesting editorials though.They clearly expressed joy in their lives from their talks, so it's highly unlikely he thinks they hate their lives. And look, you can try to separate it all you want from the context it's set in, but at the end of the day, he's impressed that they're fighting a really stupid and pointless battle to the detriment of the other aspects of their lives for no reason. You can call it a general code of honor or a warriors code of honor (though I'm not sure there is a difference. A code of honor, warrior or otherwise, is a set of rules you seek to adhere to), it still glorifies violence without a point besides adherence to some arbitrary rules. I don't consider it something to be admired. Trying to weedle out a single thread of nobility out of that, even if it's there, doesn't mean the rest of the situation is moot. If nothing else, if he really didn't approve of the giants lives, he'd have atleast given something like, "I don't want a duel that lasts the rest of my life for no reason but....".
With this particular cast of characters, I certianly wouldn't mind it, but no, I'm not someone who wants something to be dark and edgy for the sake of it. But I don't want it to be light and fluffy for it's own sake either.
If you want an example of what I mean, FMA (the manga) would probably be a good example. It ended on a happy note, but the characters had to work for it. And I don't just mean in terms of power levels, they had to confront and wrestle with a lot of their fundamental beliefs. They technically achieved a path to their dream (creating a philosophers stone) very early on, but confronted with the reality that they had to use human lives for it, they had their desires set against their principles. Throughout the series, they're constantly challenged on it, and indeed both the brothers at different points give in and use the philosopher's stones when pressed against the need to. Ed had to deal with his issues with hohenhiem, rather than be happy he went and fucked off to god knows where, Al had to struggle emotionally with the fact that he is a human in a non-human body, and even carry the death of a little girl on their conscience.
The FMA cast earned the shit out of their happy ending through internal and external struggles with complex drama. It explored the rules of the world, not giving an easy answer to any problem they had, and it's one of my favorite manga of all time because I can't think of many other manga where I believe in the characters as much as I do these, because I feel they are really complex people as opposed to a compilation of tropes.
That's what I like to see, something authentic.
Veelk is just argumentative and speculative by nature. It's a good trait to have, especially for a research minded person, but he tends to go overboard when given too much time to think.
Sorry to talk about you like you're not here, V. But your precision-oriented mind is a little too acute for the insanity of the OP world, at times.
I don't disagree, but I always considered that OP's problem, rather than mine.
Tathanen
Get Inside Her!
I've never argued this point. You're welcome to think it's stupid, and that glorifying violence in this instance is gross. I said that from post one. All I'm saying is that yes, Usopp is idolizing their fight, their warrior spirit, their honor, whatever he wants to call it. Not "anyone should pursue their desires," which is a very different topic, and the one you've been trying to undermine by saying it implicitly supports Doflamingo and Crocodile. Which it would, if he was saying it. But he's not. That's all.
Again, I'm lost as to how you conceive this 'warrior's honor' then.
You admit that Usopp's Warrior's Honor would be different from the giant's, because he wouldn't get into a duel. From the actual text, the gist of what he says is "I want to live in such a way that I will be proud". Okay, so he is saying he has a warrior's ethos, but that is also malleable, able to make his own choices of what that means.
As I said, I don't really distinguish between 'warrior honor' or general 'honor' or basic 'ethos'. To me, they're essentially the same thing: Virtues by which one abides by to live their live in such a way that they are happy with.
Doflamingo would say that the virtue's he abides by is that, by being a world noble, that grants him rights over everybody else, permitting him to take the action's he's taken. That would be his particular Warrior's Honor, being able to use and abuse others as he sees fit.
You either have to argue there is a universal code of honor that all parties have to abide by (do not murder others for no reason for example) that Usopp is referring to, which doesn't seem to be the case as he specifically says he doesn't want what the giants are having. Or else he can choose his own code of honor, which does implicitly support the likes of Doffy because so does he.
So what, in your own words, is exactly "Warrior's Honor" and how is different from Doflamingo's ethos in the sense it is valid whereas Doflamingo's is not?
Tathanen
Get Inside Her!
I'm gonna go ahead and stop you right there. I never said that. I think Usopp aspires to be exactly the same as the giants. A warrior who literally fights. Honorably. A duel would not be out of the question whatsoever.
Okay, my understanding was that you were arguing he wasn't going to participate in pointless violence that has no reason to exist like the giants.
Since you are, I refer you to my original comment on it, which kicked off this whole debate: The giants and now Usopp is a fucked up perspective on virtue and honor and it should be acknowledged as such.
Tathanen
Get Inside Her!
Well you're really just arguing against duels as a concept here, and honestly I don't really have a particularly strong opinion on that topic. So per my original stance on that: carry on!
No, not duels. I'm okay with duels as a concept. But this particular example is stupid in it's absurdity and disgusting in it's glorification by the character. It is a duel where the original point of the duel has been forgotten. A duel over which the original point, when revealed, was revealed to be trivial and an idiotic thing to start a fight over (who caught the bigger animal). Duels that last so long that they consume a third of men's lives. Duels where the people's lives aren't consumed ONLY by that duel and nothing else.
I have no issues with fighting for a principle or something, but lets be clear: the giants were not fighting over a principle. They just loved fighting. They worshipped fighting. It was an indulgence, and they abandoned the rest of their lives to do it. They loved it.
The concept of duels in general might reasonably be considered iffy, but this goes way, WAY beyond any other duel concept I've ever seen. And glorifying this particular iteration that is so utterly pointless that removes you from the world for the sake of the most petty perception of honor I've ever seen is what it is: fucked up.
And again, I'm fine with Usopp doing this as a character. I just wish the writing would acknowledge how disgusting it is.
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