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One Piece Manga |OT| ZEHAHAHAHA! The Name of this Age is Blackbeard!

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Well, the Saobaody bubbles cannot leave the island.
I know. Coating and the bubble suits were both derived from those bubbles though. Actually, I think it might be that underwater environments also stabilize the bubbles, which is why the coating disappears when a ship surfaces. Which still makes it useless as a defensive measure
 
Historically swimming was not seen as a skill that sailors needed to know. If you went overboard in an old sailing ship you were probably dead. Swimming wouldn't help you.

Sailors thought that being able to swim was bad luck opposite to One Piece where being a "hammer" who can't swim is seen as being bad. Maybe because they were just generally superstitious but possibly because being able to swim would mean you were given really dangerous jobs. It could be that they believed if there was a possible ship wreck that god would show more mercy to people to can't swim. Sailing was very dangerous and sailors took the position that they didn't want to tempt fate. Doing everything to be prepared for disaster would seem like poking your finger in gods eye.

Wet suits allow the water into the suit where water is kept inside and is warmed by your body to near body temperature. The purpose of the wet suit is to keep you warm. A dry suit is fully sealed but again the purpose isn't to keep you dry it's to keep you warm. Having a dry suit nearby for an emergency would be bad because they are quite hard and slow to put on. You would probably need help. If you were wearing them all the time there would probably be a lot of problems such as wear and tear and discomfort. Not to mention you would need to sort out the air supply if you keep it sealed.
 

Majukun

Member
aren't the Bubble suits made from the saobondy bubbles? Because I remember those PPP after a certain distance from saobondy, so I imagine it's only really useful in a few places like FI or saobondy that are in that area

And even then, they established that DF users are still weaker even while wearing them when underwater

actually,they are made from corals..but it's probably the same type of substance,so it wouldn't work outside sabaody and the depth of the sea
 

Veelk

Banned
So I'm more than halfway through Skypeia, and I feel the need to comment on the sexism thing again, specifically pertaining to Enel. As a preface, let me just say this: If you don't want this to become a discussion, don't reply. This is relevant, as I'm currently reading it, and I have a right to put down my thoughts like anyone else. If you don't want to see it, then simply scroll down further and ignore the post and any that do reply to it, but don't shit the discussion up by complaining how it's being discussed. It's not going to stop the discussion, it's going to extent it if anything, and it's a really shitty thing to do in general. And personally, I don't even think there's much to talk about because I think everyone already agrees with the general point, but I want to bring this up as it is one of the most concrete examples of what I'm talking about.

So...I don't think after all the talks that anyone actually denies that there is a strong undercurrent of sexism in OP on many levels. However, the most resisted topic was when I suggested there was a strong power/authority disparity that has little reason to be there. Posters seemed to think the idea of why women made up less than a quarter of any given crew or why they were almost never captains wasn't a relevant factor in wasn't worth considering when discussing how they were depicted within the world of OP. The problem is that in OP, the sexism is almost always subtext. There always seems to be an artificial overlaid reason for why a woman can't do this or that that actually has nothing to do with her being a woman at all. Like, there's no internal reason of why Robin and Nami haven't gotten a fight since Ennies Lobby, it just...hasn't happened, through sheer coincidence of natural events unfolding, for example. There's no reason given why there aren't that many women in authority positions. So, I found it interesting that Skypeia is one of the few arcs that seems to have characters acknowledge that there is a slanted gender dynamic. And the way they do this is....well...by villainizing Enel for treating the genders equally.

There have been 2 instances of it thus far. First when Enel had trapped Zoro and Wiper in a cage, and Enel and Laki appeared outside. Laki attacked him, so as a result, Enel fried her. Now, Enel has been villainized for attacking opponents that could pose no harm to him before, including others of Wipers group, but the way it's depicted is differently than previous instances of it. Before, it was one of his initial demonstrations of power, so he had allowed them to attack for 5 minutes, and when those were up, they ran away, and he hunted them down. In that instance, I felt the depiction of him was more "Whoa, this guy is arrogant and powerful" than villainous. In this one, it has the one instance of Wiper begging him to leave her alone, and then after he shocks her, them having a silent moment of contempt and loathing for him. This scene isn't a display of power, it's a display of abuse.

Now, you could try to wipe this up as subtext as well. Wiper wasn't mad because he attacked a woman, but because he attacked a helpless person who couldn't do him harm, and he's an asshole for that. Well, not untrue, but that reasoning falls apart when you consider the following scene. The survival game is over and Robin is one of the 5 left standing. She tries to deceive him, but he catches her out, and electrocutes her out of annoyance. Zoro catches her as she falls, turning in wrath, snarling "She's a woman....". Enel replies "I noticed." nonchalantly before Zoro attacks viciously, screaming "You really are insane!" As I said, I don't think anyone reasonable denied that there was an undercurrent of sexism of power dynamics already running through the story. But with those words, it's made explicit. Enel is a bully who cruelly plays with the lives around him, but he's depicted as worse because he treats the genders equally, the manga now taking the stance that while hurting men for no reason is a dick move, hurting women at all (as both Laki and Robin were in fact enemy combatants) is monsterous.

The fact that this is Zoro saying it only accentuates the point. Sanji is an idiot with women, so it'd make more sense if he was saying this. Zoro has more reason to pay respect to female warriors as equals than anyone in the manga, given his past. Not to mention it's inconsistent as he himself crushed Ms. Monday's skull and didn't care when Luffy punched Ms. Valentine or Vivi. It makes little sense for me to see him object to Enel hurting Robin not because he's hurting a crewmate or even a just helpless person, but specifically a woman.

And I just find this utterly disrespectful to it's own female characters. It essentially makes the statement that women are fundamentally unworthy as warriors relative to men, and therefore should be afforded different treatment. The fact that Enel is treating them just as he would men is somehow such an offense that Zoro, who is the one who distrusts Robin more than anyone in the crew and should respect her as a fellow warrior more than anyone, drops those characteristics to retaliate on behalf of her gender. I consider it to be a very out of character moment for him, though this aspect will continue to stay throughout the series from here on out. And it's disappointing to see. It's confirmation that he in fact doesn't respect Tashigi as a fellow swordsman, and not because of her being less skilled than him. And his last words to Kuina end up being disingenuous, meaning that her being a woman does in fact mean she is can't be placed on equal ground with male swordsman. And I'm fairly sure this is characterization Oda never intended. If people wondered what I meant by how sexism makes writing worse, this would be a small example of it. It makes Zoro fundamentally a hypocrite.
 
i don't think oda is trying to be sexist (idk if people think this or not), but he's just writing the vision he sees in his head. i don't really like to criticize this kind of thing unless it's overtly intentional, as I wouldn't want people blasting me as sexist or racist, etc for my work if that wasn't my intent. Not say it can't still be an issue, and I know you aren't really attacking Oda himself, just wanted to say it.

i don't really think zoro is sexist though b/c he'll attack women with killing intent. I don't really remember the specifics of his interactions with Tashigi, but in my head that thing on skypiea is an isolated incident, unless you can point out some other specifics.
 

Veelk

Banned
i don't think oda is trying to be sexist (idk if people think this or not), but he's just writing the vision he sees in his head. i don't really like to criticize this kind of thing unless it's overtly intentional, as I wouldn't want people blasting me as sexist or racist, etc for my work if that wasn't my intent. Not say it can't still be an issue, and I know you aren't really attacking Oda himself, just wanted to say it.

i don't really think zoro is sexist though b/c he'll attack women with killing intent. I don't really remember the specifics of his interactions with Tashigi, but in my head that thing on skypiea is an isolated incident, unless you can point out some other specifics.

Again, not only am I not attacking Oda, I wouldn't refer to him whether he actually is sexist or not. He can be a Men's Right's Activist for all I know or care. I separate the art from the author and my comment is that One Piece, the story itself, is thematically sexist...though it wasn't before, honestly, or not as much. Early OP had Nami actually getting into the scuffle more. Going by the early chapters, I'd have expected her to become a far more prominent force of nature than she ever ended up being.

Edit: I know your not saying I am attacking Oda, but since he was brought up in that context, I feel the need to yet again outline my Death of the Author stance. Whatever beliefs Oda personally holds are completely irrelevant to me, it's the portrayal the manga itself depicts that matters to me.

Anyway, as I said, Zoro had fewer issues with this in the past, as he attacked Ms. Monday and had no problem with Luffy knocking the crap out of Ms Valentine during the Whiskey Peak arc. With Tashigi, he claimed he was unable to attack her because she reminded him of Kuina, which I believed at the time. But with this... I feel the writing itself changed rather than the character, the same way the manga used to avoid the male gaze, and now it's essentially impossible to have a female character without it.
 
Again, not only am I not attacking Oda, I wouldn't refer to him whether he actually is sexist or not. He can be a Men's Right's Activist for all I know or care. I separate the art from the author and my comment is that One Piece, the story itself, is thematically sexist...though it wasn't before, honestly, or not as much. Early OP had Nami actually getting into the scuffle more. Going by the early chapters, I'd have expected her to become a far more prominent force of nature than she ever ended up being.

Edit: I know your not saying I am attacking Oda, but since he was brought up in that context, I feel the need to yet again outline my Death of the Author stance.

Anyway, as I said, Zoro had fewer issues with this in the past, as he attacked Ms. Monday and had no problem with Luffy knocking the crap out of Ms Valentine during the Whiskey Peak arc. With Tashigi, he claimed he was unable to attack her because she reminded him of Kuina, which I believed at the time. But with this... I feel the writing itself changed rather than the character, the same way the manga used to avoid the male gaze, and now it's essentially impossible to have a female character without it.

I don't really want to discuss this in depth so I'm going to refrain from posting some stuff, but the only example you're giving if Zoro being a hypocrite is when he says that to Enel at Skypiea. If there were other examples I would be more inclined to share your viewpoint of him, but from what I can remember Zoro never goes out of his way to treat women (except Tashigi) differently than he would treat a man.
 

Veelk

Banned
I don't really want to discuss this in depth so I'm going to refrain from posting some stuff, but the only example you're giving if Zoro being a hypocrite is when he says that to Enel at Skypiea. If there were other examples I would be more inclined to share your viewpoint of him, but from what I can remember Zoro never goes out of his way to treat women (except Tashigi) differently than he would treat a man.


I am somewhat lost as to why Zoro needs to demonstrate hypocrisy multiple times in order to be a hypocrite. Once is usually enough, since the definition is mostly about acting in contrary to your stated beliefs. If Zoro viewed women as equal fellow warriors, his offense at this wouldn't exist. It doesn't have to happen multiple times for it to be valid. But since you asked, Monet is the most immediate one that comes to mind, not wanting to cut her just because she was a woman and instead found a way to scare her into submission (which is in it's own way problematic). Also, during my reread, he also refused to cut a woman who tried to sneak attack him as a nun whereas he had no problem cutting down everyone else (She was with a child who did the same).
 
I am somewhat lost as to why Zoro needs to demonstrate hypocrisy multiple times in order to be a hypocrite. Once is usually enough, since the definition is mostly about acting in contrary to your stated beliefs. If Zoro viewed women as equal fellow warriors, his offense at this wouldn't exist. It doesn't have to happen multiple times for it to be valid. But since you asked, Monet is the most immediate one that comes to mind, not wanting to cut her just because she was a woman and instead found a way to scare her into submission (which is in it's own way problematic). Also, during my reread, he also refused to cut a woman who tried to sneak attack him as a nun whereas he had no problem cutting down everyone else (She was with a child who did the same).

If it was an isolated incident, and Zoro returned to acting as usual afterwards, I would think it to be more of a slip up in writing rather than a fundamental hypocrisy of Zoro's character. In other words, it could have just been a mistake in the writing, or an oversight, or something.

Regarding the Monet fight, the way I just reread the chapter where Zoro 'fights' her. and I believe that Zoro vs Monet is actually the exact opposite of what you're trying to point out. Tashigi still believes Zoro won't go all out on a woman, and Zoro is prepared to kill Monet, proving Tashigi wrong. The only reason he doesn't kill her was because it would have been unnecessary for him to do so. He could have finished her off at any time, and as he stated earlier in the chapter, his only mission was to prevent her from reaching the rest of the crew.

Now, Zoro does imply he doesn't like to harm women by saying "there are certain things I don't enjoy slicing" , but I think this also goes to show that Zoro isn't sexist because regardless of his supposed disdain of the act, he will do it anyway.

Chapter 687 btw, if you wanted to check it out.
 

Veelk

Banned
If it was an isolated incident, and Zoro returned to acting as usual afterwards, I would think it to be more of a slip up in writing rather than a fundamental hypocrisy of Zoro's character. In other words, it could have just been a mistake in the writing, or an oversight, or something.

Regarding the Monet fight, the way I just reread the chapter where Zoro 'fights' her. and I believe that Zoro vs Monet is actually the exact opposite of what you're trying to point out. Tashigi still believes Zoro won't go all out on a woman, and Zoro is prepared to kill Monet, proving Tashigi wrong. The only reason he doesn't kill her was because it would have been unnecessary for him to do so. He could have finished her off at any time, and as he stated earlier in the chapter, his only mission was to prevent her from reaching the rest of the crew.

Now, Zoro does imply he doesn't like to harm women by saying "there are certain things I don't enjoy slicing" , but I think this also goes to show that Zoro isn't sexist because regardless of his supposed disdain of the act, he will do it anyway.

Chapter 687 btw, if you wanted to check it out.

I don't really buy that logic given the fact that he...well, he doesn't cut Monet. It's not like a slip up or anything. He knows for a fact that he can't cut her, no matter what, unless he Haki's up, since she's a Logia and all. He chooses not to. Now, if the whole scare tactic hadn't worked, maybe he would have just done it then, but it did. He had no reason to not use Haki and I fully believe he would have done so had been up against a male Logia user.

So I see him as being all talk, like he often is when he is at risk of revealing his feelings, so he comes up with excuses about he's actually a totally vicious merciless animal and he's not helping them out because he likes them or anything. He's very Tsundere like that. Which would be fine, but in this case, him being dishonest about this undermines the whole reason he set out as a swordsman in the first place.


Edit: Also, why is Luffy able to hit Enel? I can understand why his lightning doesn't affect Luffy, but I don't see why that would mean that he is unable to turn into lightning to dodge Luffy's attacks.
 
Edit: Also, why is Luffy able to hit Enel? I can understand why his lightning doesn't affect Luffy, but I don't see why that would mean that he is unable to turn into lightning to dodge Luffy's attacks.

Wasn't he? It's been awhile but I remember Enel dodging with Mantra/observation haki was a big part of the fight and Luffy scored hits when he caught him off-guard.
 

Veelk

Banned
Wasn't he? It's been awhile but I remember Enel dodging with Mantra/observation haki was a big part of the fight and Luffy scored hits when he caught him off-guard.

But that's not how logia powers work, isn't it? They activate automatically, without the user having to be aware that they've been hit. From how Vangur shot ace from out of nowhere to Croc being decapitated by Doflamingo, I seem to remember that they weren't aware, but managed to element out of the hit when needed. Unless I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure the user doesn't need to be aware of an attack ahead of time. Otherwise, Logia's should be fairly easy to take out with snipers.
 

Tathanen

Get Inside Her!
Same reason water made crocodile tangible. The influence of an opposite element doesn't trigger the automatic transition into logia element. It allows the targeting of the "true body," just like armament haki.
 

Veelk

Banned
Same reason water made crocodile tangible. The influence of an opposite element doesn't trigger the automatic transition into logia element. It allows the targeting of the "true body," just like armament haki.

Hm....my understanding was that water stopped Croc because of the logic that wet sand clings together, so Luffy wasn't hitting his 'true body' he was just hitting sand that Croc couldn't element out of.

If that's the case, Luffy being able to hit croc seems even more arbitrary than before then, especially since he states that desert can absorb water as part of his powers.
 
I don't really buy that logic given the fact that he...well, he doesn't cut Monet. It's not like a slip up or anything. He knows for a fact that he can't cut her, no matter what, unless he Haki's up, since she's a Logia and all. He chooses not to. Now, if the whole scare tactic hadn't worked, maybe he would have just done it then, but it did. He had no reason to not use Haki and I fully believe he would have done so had been up against a male Logia user.

So I see him as being all talk, like he often is when he is at risk of revealing his feelings, so he comes up with excuses about he's actually a totally vicious merciless animal and he's not helping them out because he likes them or anything. He's very Tsundere like that. Which would be fine, but in this case, him being dishonest about this undermines the whole reason he set out as a swordsman in the first place.


Edit: Also, why is Luffy able to hit Enel? I can understand why his lightning doesn't affect Luffy, but I don't see why that would mean that he is unable to turn into lightning to dodge Luffy's attacks.

Once again, I have to disagree. As I said before, Zoro had no reason to actually cut her, because his mission was not to kill her, just to keep her in one spot. He also knew Tashigi was more motivated to defeat Monet than he was. After Monet is cut by Tashigi he said "If you didn't cut her I would have."

This is just a difference in interpretation, so there's really no sense in arguing about it. I understand why you have the opinion you do, I'm just not so inclined to agree with it given what I've seen of Zoro's character so far.

Regarding Enel, the one thing I will criticize Oda openly on is that he is really bad at managing some of his characters' powers. Law could easily defeat everyone in the series (assuming there's no way to resist Room/Shambles), and many believe that Robin has an OP DF (I'm not inclined to believe this), but Oda has them execute their powers in a way that lets them use the full potential of their fruit. I'm sure Enel could have easily avoided Luffy all day if he wanted to, but Oda just didn't have him do it. Also, there would be the whole thing about what's the point of the arc at all if they don't defeat him?

So yeah, bad at power execution (only for a few characters, like Law, Robin, etc.) and entertainment value. That would be my guess.

Same reason water made crocodile tangible. The influence of an opposite element doesn't trigger the automatic transition into logia element. It allows the targeting of the "true body," just like armament haki.

If this is true, then my post still stands, I suppose just not for Enel. Is this explained anywhere in the manga?

Hm....my understanding was that water stopped Croc because of the logic that wet sand clings together, so Luffy wasn't hitting his 'true body' he was just hitting sand that Croc couldn't element out of.

If that's the case, Luffy being able to hit croc seems even more arbitrary than before then, especially since he states that desert can absorb water as part of his powers.

I was under the impression that Crocodile had to actively try to absorb water. Any time he comes into contact with water when he isn't, it hurts him.

My takeaway at least.
 

Veelk

Banned
Once again, I have to disagree. As I said before, Zoro had no reason to actually cut her, because his mission was not to kill her, just to keep her in one spot. He also knew Tashigi was more motivated to defeat Monet than he was. After Monet is cut by Tashigi he said "If you didn't cut her I would have."

This is just a difference in interpretation, so there's really no sense in arguing about it. I understand why you have the opinion you do, I'm just not so inclined to agree with it given what I've seen of Zoro's character so far.

Well, Zoro being sexist doesn't mean that he'd never ever ever attack a woman under any circumstances ever. It's just a matter that Monet would have to exhaust every other possibility first, whereas he would simply cut a male logia user like he just goes and cuts every other male fighter he goes up against. The fact that women have to work so much harder to get him to fight them seriously just proves the point that he views them as inherently lower. This is not how he treats the basic male fighter. That's all that's really required to show he doesn't view women warriors as the same level as male.

Regarding Enel, the one thing I will criticize Oda openly on is that he is really bad at managing some of his characters' powers. Law could easily defeat everyone in the series (assuming there's no way to resist Room/Shambles), and many believe that Robin has an OP DF (I'm not inclined to believe this), but Oda has them execute their powers in a way that lets them use the full potential of their fruit. I'm sure Enel could have easily avoided Luffy all day if he wanted to, but Oda just didn't have him do it. Also, there would be the whole thing about what's the point of the arc at all if they don't defeat him?

So yeah, bad at power execution (only for a few characters, like Law, Robin, etc.) and entertainment value. That would be my guess.

Jeez, tell me about it. There is not only no way certain characters should lose, but also no way other characters should be able to perform the kind of attacks they do (looking at you, Luffy).

But I guess that's my whole thing with One Piece. It follows a formula whether it makes sense or not. Villains exist to be punched out and defeated, powers do stuff they're never supposed to, etc. It brings me out o the OP world everytime I see it and it reminds me of how what I'm reading is artificial.
 
Well, Zoro being sexist doesn't mean that he'd never ever ever attack a woman under any circumstances ever. It's just a matter that Monet would have to exhaust every other possibility first, whereas he would simply cut a male logia user like he just goes and cuts every other male fighter he goes up against. The fact that women have to work so much harder to get him to fight them seriously just proves the point that he views them as inherently lower. This is not how he treats the basic male fighter. That's all that's really required to show he doesn't view women warriors as the same level as male.



Jeez, tell me about it. There is not only no way certain characters should lose, but also no way other characters should be able to perform the kind of attacks they do (looking at you, Luffy).

But I guess that's my whole thing with One Piece. It follows a formula whether it makes sense or not. Villains exist to be punched out and defeated, powers do stuff they're never supposed to, etc. It brings me out o the OP world everytime I see it and it reminds me of how what I'm reading is artificial.

why shouldn't Luffy be able to use the attacks he does?
 

Veelk

Banned
why shouldn't Luffy be able to use the attacks he does?

Several reasons. Luffy's body alternates between being elastic and hard at the plots convenience. he shouldn't be able to chew his food, for example, since his teeth are rubber. If he's easily cut by knives wielded with average strength, normal blunt force attacks should be able to damage him. His Gear 3 should be like being hit with a balloon because it's 99% air and has no density. Hell, how does he even put air into it? He blows into his thumb, but doesn't immediately blow out? Why can it even travel through his body like he makes it do? Does he have no internal organs? And gear 2. How is he able to have his blood pump that fast on will for several minutes? He just does a single pump of his legs, which shouldn't make that happen or even if it did, how is he magically able to gather that much blood in his legs without moving them out until he wills it? And I don't care how rubbery he is, there is no reason he should be able to survive the millions of volts Enel throws his way

Luffy's abilities are pure nonsense. One Piece abilities in general are pure nonsense, but especially Luffy's.
 

Tathanen

Get Inside Her!
Hm....my understanding was that water stopped Croc because of the logic that wet sand clings together, so Luffy wasn't hitting his 'true body' he was just hitting sand that Croc couldn't element out of.

Well if he was just wet sand, presumably a punch would just be like punching... wet sand. Still just paff out of the way, just kinda in wet chunks. The only way he could be hitting the "actual" Crocodile, doing damage, making him bleed, etc, is if he was doing damage to his non-logia non-element body. Same with Enel, if it was just "rubber doesn't conduct electricity" all it would do is protect Luffy from harm, but it also allows him to damage Enel. It's never made explicit in the manga as far as I know, but since the mechanics in practice are identical to armament haki I'm led to believe they function similarly. Haki negates logias universally, but you can accomplish the same thing via opposite element attacks.

...which makes me wonder how that whole Akainu/Aokiji fight really went down.
 
Well if he was just wet sand, presumably a punch would just be like punching... wet sand. Still just paff out of the way, just kinda in wet chunks. The only way he could be hitting the "actual" Crocodile, doing damage, making him bleed, etc, is if he was doing damage to his non-logia non-element body. Same with Enel, if it was just "rubber doesn't conduct electricity" all it would do is protect Luffy from harm, but it also allows him to damage Enel. It's never made explicit in the manga as far as I know, but since the mechanics in practice are identical to armament haki I'm led to believe they function similarly. Haki negates logias universally, but you can accomplish the same thing via opposite element attacks.

...which makes me wonder how that whole Akainu/Aokiji fight really went down.

Akainu's magma can even burn ice!
 

RomanceDawn

Member
Zoro is a super hypocrite! Or at the very least his attitude began to change as time went on. I know everyone couldn't wait to get on the sexism wagon against Monet but there was some really interesting things Zoro had to say regarding his personal beliefs that everyone just glossed over.

But yeah hypocrite Zoro from day 1! How does a man like him believe in no God but like 90% of his attacks are based on demons, deities or things religious in nature? Zoro is like each and every one of us. A flawed man who may say one thing but it certain instances follow through with another line of thinking. I love it!

Veelk. Go to Arlong Park. You will have a ton of allies on your side and a bunch of enemies as well.

Also I want to know. What stories do you like in this world? I think you really need to just drop One Piece.
 

Veelk

Banned
Veelk. Go to Arlong Park. You will have a ton of allies on your side and a bunch of enemies as well.

Also I want to know. What stories do you like in this world? I think you really need to just drop One Piece.

I need neither an echo chamber nor a hostile templars. I don't think you get why I do this. I don't want people to agree with me, or even disagree. I just...like to let my thoughts out. From there, people wrestle with those thoughts, and I look out for when people do that best. I always thought I should start a blog, but I prefer forums because prefer a level playing field for people to talk, and Neogaf is usually the best place for that because of it's strict moderation policies prevent things from going to shit too much. But I don't need that. If no one responded to my posts, I would still write. I enjoy writing, putting down my thoughts. What anyone else makes of them is....well, not unimportant, especially if they have a good argument to that supports or even refutes mine. It isn't me stroking my own ego, regardless of what some think. But whether you like my posts or are just pissed off when you see my name, I write down my thoughts and post because I enjoy doing so first and foremost.

And what I like about One Piece's stories? I already said I am mostly interested in the mysteries of the OP world. So stuff like the Void History, the Will of D....not One Piece itself, oddly enough. I want to see all of Oda's sword designs and the ancient weapons, While I take issue with the microlevel details of..pretty much any fight, I like a lot of them on a macro level, so any large scale conflict is interesting to me. Ennies Lobby, Marineford in particular. I guess I'm actually also interested in the marines themselves, though I see them as moving from one epic fail to another the whole series, and the Yonko battles will all be grand. So, I basically like all the stuff that Oda drip feeds the readers until it's time to deliver on it. It's just a shame I care nothing for the characters themselves, I suppose.

Characterwise, I would say I'm not particularly interested in any character's story. But compared to others, the stories I'm most interested in are Zoro's, Usopp's, and Robin's of the Strawhat crew, and I guess Kid and Laws (well, now that I know his deal, I kind of don't know what he's going to go do now, so...) and Mihawk's. Akainu, maybe? Um....not much else.

Look, if it makes you feel better, once I finish my reread, I'll probably be done with it for a while. I don't really discuss the new chapters too much because I don't see the point in looking at an incomplete story arc. So once I've said all I feel I need to say on OP, I'll go to do something else. I've been meaning to reread Naruto forever, for example. No idea when, precisely that will be. It's really all about when my interest finally wanes.
 

Veelk

Banned
What a pleasure to know that this is your place to let your thoughts out.

I don't know how else you would possibly define a forum. This is what you signed up for here on Neogaf. That you personally dislike a particular person in the forum doesn't change it's purpose.
 

Jarate

Banned
I think one of the issues you are having is that you are actively seeking out sexism and trying to find it in every single possible crevice of the story that it inhibits you from making a nonbiased viewpoint of what is actually going on. I think it's part over thinking and part making a mountain out of a molehill

I've always had a hard time of pushing my own western ideologies on Japanese media, I have never lived in their culture and don't really know if they have the same problems we do. Sexism suredly exists in their culture, but it could permeate in incredibly different ways.
 

Veelk

Banned
I think one of the issues you are having is that you are actively seeking out sexism and trying to find it in every single possible crevice of the story that it inhibits you from making a nonbiased viewpoint of what is actually going on. I think it's part over thinking and part making a mountain out of a molehill

I've always had a hard time of pushing my own western ideologies on Japanese media, I have never lived in their culture and don't really know if they have the same problems we do. Sexism suredly exists in their culture, but it could permeate in incredibly different ways.

Pretty sure blatantly depicting women being hurt as a greater evil than men having the same is a universal example throughout all media cultures that I've seen.

I have no doubt people will disagree, but I don't see what I do as 'searching' for sexism, just pointing it out. Perhaps I am biased. The thing about bias is that you don't really notice it in the act, so if I am biased, I'm not going to be aware of it. And the word of other people isn't enough, you'd need some sort of scientific test to measure your responses to such things. But I place checks on myself as much as I can. I can admit that Robin and Nami are still characterized uniquely and to the degree of any other male character. I can agree that they have their strengths. I try not to ignore any evidence that opposes my conclusion. If I disagree with it, I make sure I have good reason to. So...I try, as far as I can see, I'm making the best and most fair points I am able to.

Honestly, I think I only harp on it so much because there is so much denial about it. I have plenty to criticize OP without sexism. But when it goes into sexism, people are very quick to jump to denial about anything. Oh, they'll agree that in general terms, there's something off, but whenever I brought up any single specific part of it, there were defenders ready to deny that it was even there. No, women aren't just wearing skimpy clothes for pure titillation, a tiny party dress is the exact thing to wear while infiltrating a major city. And naturally females get male fanservice as well, just look at how shirtless zoro is. And of course the fact that there are 3-5 times as many male characters isn't indicative of anything greater, nor is the fact that nearly every single female is subordinate to a male lead (either in terms of in universe authority or simple narrative focus). No, every single time I suggested anything in particular, there's always something that makes it the only sensible thing to do. Honestly, I feel like it was a lot like the gamergate rhetoric that went on. Even gamergaters will agree that videogames have a lot of sexist practices, but the moment anyone mounts an argument of any particular instance or trend, you'll see defenders coming out to explain how that particular instance makes sense, how that trope is justified. Every time. Which is not to say my arguments shouldn't be questioned, but I feel it's indicative that there is resistance to the idea of there being sexism no matter how you come at it. At some point, it stops being about the quality of the arguments and the fact that calling out sexism is going to be opposed on every front, no matter how obvious. No one defends that One Piece is filled with a lot of nonsensical rules, and I've brought up several undisputed examples. But as soon as I head into the direction of sexism, there is always a defense force. And I think I can understand why.

Personally, I see it as an inability to separate personal enjoyment of the book/author from the material itself. Many of the discussions have gone along the lines of people agreeing and just asking me to shut up about it already, and one poster outright admitted by calling the work sexist, in their minds I was calling Oda sexist (and this notion was still brought up just earlier today, even though I literally never mentioned Oda in my post, and the poster was even aware of that), and ergo also instigating a sense of accusation. After all, if you enjoy OP, and even enjoy how the females male gazed, and that's sexist, then what must htat be saying about you?

One piece is drenched in sexism. I feel this is glaringly obvious. It is less so at some parts of the series than others and there are worse examples than OP, but it's still pretty thick. For that matter, would do well to include more colored people too. Alabasta was an arc steeped in arabian/egyptian aesthetics in the desert with everyone being white as snow, especially vivi. But anyway, it doesn't mean you can't enjoy OP, you just should be aware of it's problems. People resist that, so I felt forced press harder on the issue. This isn't even an uncommon occurrence as 1. there's not much as an audience you can do about it, especially when it's something from the eastern market 2. People just flat out don't like to detect sexism 3. even when they're willing to do so, they are often unable to because they don't consider it. There is research supporting this.

I don't really know how to convince people to do otherwise though. I have a lot of stuff that I enjoy that's problematic. Berserk comes to mind more clearly. Even I have a slight tendency to defend it, as I like it very much and still consider caska a fully developed character. But it doesn't change the fact that her life revolves around the men in her life and she's victimized sexually basically the whole way through the manga. Being a three dimensional character allows me to mount some defenses of her portrayal. I still enjoy it, still appreciate it's craft, and still consider it one of the best told stories I've ever read in manga. But at the end of the day, it's got it's problems. I can admit that, and I can do the same about several other of my favorite series. If I can do that, anyone should be able to similarly do the same with whatever their prize horse is.
 
If you don't want this to become a discussion, don't reply.

That's a nice thought, but as you can see, it doesn't work like that. People don't know how to ignore things that they don't like. And that's an issue.

And the discussion has been banned from this thread. No, you don't have a "right", as you so dramatically call it, as NeoGAF is not a democracy, for better or worse, as stated in the ToS. What mods say are final, really.
 
After all, if you enjoy OP, and even enjoy how the females male gazed, and that's sexist, then what must htat be saying about you?

One piece is drenched in sexism. I feel this is glaringly obvious. It is less so at some parts of the series than others and there are worse examples than OP, but it's still pretty thick.

But anyway, it doesn't mean you can't enjoy OP, you just should be aware of it's problems. People resist that, so I felt forced press harder on the issue. This isn't even an uncommon occurrence as 1. there's not much as an audience you can do about it, especially when it's something from the eastern market 2. People just flat out don't like to detect sexism 3. even when they're willing to do so, they are often unable to because they don't consider it. There is research supporting this.

I don't really know how to convince people to do otherwise though.

Stop.

The reason why you're getting so much backlash is because, despite these obvious flaws, people are mostly in this thread to discuss the series at a base-level rather than some kind of intellectual critique.

You come off as incredibly condescending with your posts, which given your repeated lengthy posts on the subject, you can't seem to understand. People don't take well to someone preaching at them from a soapbox. No one is resisting sexism in One Piece, people are resisting you for repeatedly making it an issue. We can bash One Piece all day long, but people are mostly here to discuss what they enjoy about the direction the series is heading and the theories behind the world.

Sorry dude, but I felt I had to say this. We aren't idiots.
 
Stop.

The reason why you're getting so much backlash is because, despite these obvious flaws, people are mostly in this thread to discuss the series at a base-level rather than some kind of intellectual critique.

You come off as incredibly condescending with your posts, which given your repeated lengthy posts on the subject, you can't seem to understand. People don't take well to someone preaching at them from a soapbox. No one is resisting sexism in One Piece, people are resisting you for repeatedly making it an issue. We can bash One Piece all day long, but people are mostly here to discuss what they enjoy about the direction the series is heading and the theories behind the world.

Sorry dude, but I felt I had to say this. We aren't idiots.
We've told him this several times,it got so bad a mod was bought in here to personally tell him to stop and it worked...for like a week
 

Kave_Man

come in my shame circle
Good news spoilers are starting to trickle out.

So far just an image of one of the pages:

Zou is doing the eruption rain and the Strawhats are seeing it for the first time.
 

Nocebo

Member
We've told him this several times,it got so bad a mod was bought in here to personally tell him to stop and it worked...for like a week
Veelk has a weird obsession with one piece that much is certain. I think only a therapist can actually help him.

As to the spoiler I hope no one was surprised.
 
Aaaaaaand this is why this thread be so darn dead all the time. People run off with a headache. Wasn't this banned from here recently

It wasnt banned. Seda told everyone to chill for a bit on this discussion and maybe come back to it later because it was all this thread was about at that moment. And now again it only became a discussion because people just cant help but disagree with veelk on some very obvious and simple things. Like, it shouldnt even be a discussion, it should just be veelk giving his thoughts or whatever but no we cant allow that. No sir, there's no sexism in this thread.

It may well be that this will result in sexism discussion for 20 pages and a mod will come here again but that will be on you guys that cant take criticism, not on veelk.
 

Tathanen

Get Inside Her!
I don't know how else you would possibly define a forum. This is what you signed up for here on Neogaf.

People sign up for neogaf for discussion, not for the unilateral depositing of their opinions. You've said that your posts are more just to register your ideas publicly, not specifically for discussion. You are not describing a forum, you are describing a blog. When you suggest that people "don't have to reply" you are undermining the fundamental concept of a discussion forum. If you just want to write, go with the blog. It was the right idea when you had it.
 

Mendrox

Member
I love that Oda puts Nami, Robin, Rebecca, Vivi etc. in slutty clothes or let them do sexy poses and use their female charme when they can.

This is because they are not useless and kicked asses here and there... sadly there weren't many women fights in One Piece these last years, but they all showed that they can hold themselves quiet good.

But... who the fuck cares? One Piece is One Piece and everybody accepts that. I don't want that bullshit feminist shit in these funny discussion. I rather want to talk about Chopper and hoping for him to get some Mink ass.
 
People sign up for neogaf for discussion, not for the unilateral depositing of their opinions. You've said that your posts are more just to register your ideas publicly, not specifically for discussion. You are not describing a forum, you are describing a blog. When you suggest that people "don't have to reply" you are undermining the fundamental concept of a discussion forum. If you just want to write, go with the blog. It was the right idea when you had it.

Interesting that you say that because people on your "side" of this debate seem to actively want to shut off discussion. Maybe veelk should go off and make a blog while simultaneously you guys stop frequenting discussion forums given the tendency some have demonstrated here. Neither of these things seem likely to happen so i dont see any use in this discussion.
 

Russ T

Banned
I think one of the issues you are having is that you are actively seeking out sexism and trying to find it in every single possible crevice of the story that it inhibits you from making a nonbiased viewpoint of what is actually going on. I think it's part over thinking and part making a mountain out of a molehill

I've always had a hard time of pushing my own western ideologies on Japanese media, I have never lived in their culture and don't really know if they have the same problems we do. Sexism suredly exists in their culture, but it could permeate in incredibly different ways.

Okay, wait, what?

You don't have to look hard to find the sexism in One Piece. It's pretty much always there right in your face, blatantly and often enough predominantly.

Like, you don't want to talk about it, fine, but don't go pretending it's not always there...
 

Tathanen

Get Inside Her!
Interesting that you say that because people on your "side" of this debate seem to actively want to shut off discussion. Maybe veelk should go off and make a blog while simultaneously you guys stop frequenting discussion forums given the tendency some have demonstrated here. Neither of these things seem likely to happen so i dont see any use in this discussion.

...I do not shut down discussion whatsoever, I've had some of the most protracted discussions/arguments with Veelk out of anyone. My arguments have never been "stop talking." I'll get plenty irate/stupid which I regret, but don't group me with people who are saying things like, oh I dunno, "I don't want that bullshit feminist shit in these funny discussion." Their posts are the worst ones of all.
 
...I do not shut down discussion whatsoever, I've had some of the most protracted discussions/arguments with Veelk out of anyone. My arguments have never been "stop talking." I'll get plenty irate/stupid which I regret, but don't group me with people who are saying things like, oh I dunno, "I don't want that bullshit feminist shit in these funny discussion." Their posts are the worst ones of all.

Ok yeah, sorry. I didnt mean to group you with those kind of posters at all. The "side" i was referring to is comprised of the people that think veelk ought to stop posting. This has both reasonable fellows like you and folks that post things like what you said. Anyway dividing this thing into sides is not really helping since this often only leads to more animosity.
 

bjork

Member
I think if Croc had watched the Gaara/Rock Lee fight, he would never have lost in the desert. Croc uses his sand in cool ways, but he's kind of dumb with it defensively.
 

Jarate

Banned
Okay, wait, what?

You don't have to look hard to find the sexism in One Piece. It's pretty much always there right in your face, blatantly and often enough predominantly.

Like, you don't want to talk about it, fine, but don't go pretending it's not always there...

I'm not pretending its not there nor did I ever say it didn't exist, in fact my entire post was specifically talking about Veelk and his strange obsession

I lurk this thread mostly, but man it always turns into a cesspool when he posts.

Veelk, you should really start a blog that covers your opinions, you can write well enough too pull it off, but I don't think the One Piece Manga thread on here is the best place for this type of discussion , especially because we've seen before that all it does is shit up this thread and make it difficult for people to want too post

Interesting that you say that because people on your "side" of this debate seem to actively want to shut off discussion. Maybe veelk should go off and make a blog while simultaneously you guys stop frequenting discussion forums given the tendency some have demonstrated here. Neither of these things seem likely to happen so i dont see any use in this discussion.

And please don't bring this type of stuff either. "Your side of the debate" literally means nothing because we have no clue of any particular opinions of anyone on "my side of the debate" judge people for what they say instead of grouping people together instantly if they don't agree with your set opinions

And in any case Veelk is a special case as most of us don't care to argue with him because literally all he does is come into the thread and practically bring all discussion to an absolute halt. It got so bad that a mod had to come in and tell him to stop for a while. I'd rather not ignore him as I'm sure that he can post well about One Piece, but it's hard to ignore his posts when they take up more then half of the page and have by far the most content of any poster
 

Veelk

Banned
That's a nice thought, but as you can see, it doesn't work like that. People don't know how to ignore things that they don't like. And that's an issue.

And the discussion has been banned from this thread. No, you don't have a "right", as you so dramatically call it, as NeoGAF is not a democracy, for better or worse, as stated in the ToS. What mods say are final, really.

And what the mods said was that the discussion was temporarily suspended. It's been weeks and I justified my post's relevance early on as part of my reread and mostly as an observation. So, as I see it, I was acting within my rights as set out by the mods. If you believe I stepped out of line, feel free to contact them, but I doubt that they'll see this as a breach of what was laid down before.

Stop.

The reason why you're getting so much backlash is because, despite these obvious flaws, people are mostly in this thread to discuss the series at a base-level rather than some kind of intellectual critique.

You come off as incredibly condescending with your posts, which given your repeated lengthy posts on the subject, you can't seem to understand. People don't take well to someone preaching at them from a soapbox. No one is resisting sexism in One Piece, people are resisting you for repeatedly making it an issue. We can bash One Piece all day long, but people are mostly here to discuss what they enjoy about the direction the series is heading and the theories behind the world.

Sorry dude, but I felt I had to say this. We aren't idiots.

When I said all that, it's wasn't me thinking you guys are idiots, it's being normal people. You say they aren't resisting the idea, but Pegosaurus (sorry to call you out like this) immediate move was to attempt to create the Skypeia as an isolated incident where it was somehow irrelevant. This happens every time, like clockwork, no matter what angle the implication is brought up. I feel it's reasonable to assume that the fact that no one likes to have their beloved characters labeled with something like that is atleast a partial factor. It's not about being idiots, it's about the fact that human beings aren't hyper rational objective creatures devoid of innate tendencies beyond their control.

But okay, lets say I'm being an condescending asshole. Fine. What do you think is a reasonable thing for me to do about it? Because I'll tell you one thing I'm not going to do is radically alter my posting style for the convenience of others. You're basically saying that criticizing one piece is okay, just not with the lengthy line of criticism I decide to use, wherein I justify my criticism with details. That, I am not going to do. I don't think it's reasonable to ask anyone to stop posting merely as a result of perceived offenses at their writing style.

And they are perceived offenses. There is nothing about my first post that was anything but recording my observations and opinion at it. Only pegosaurus actually wrestled with the discussion, and I'd say I was courteous to him, even though I disagreed with what he was saying. For that, Romance Dawn tried to shoo me off the board again and Jarate questioned my judgement instead of refuting my argument. So it's okay to speculate on my blindspots and bias', but I'm condescending when I do so with others? I didn't take offense at what Jarate said because he's right, I might have a bias, because everyone does. My only point was how would I know if I did? As I said, bias' are hard to distinguish from objectively made judgements without some kind of test to prove it. And how do you actually know, for sure, that it's just me and there isn't a bias at work with the rest of the board as well? It's not like sexism has a welcome history in most other discussions. How do you know that it isn't, even partially, you guys as well? What I think it is has been already numberously discussed and people have admitted that they indeed have a difficulty seperating the idea of criticizing OP from criticizing Oda. This isn't something I just pulled out of my ass either. I can find posts where people admit to such. It's condescension to repeat that as a factor in why people might not want to talk about it?

Here is my stance on the matter: The idea that people find me condescending, rude, an asshole, arrogant, etc, this is not new to me. My repeatedly lengthy posts on these matters isn't from a lack of understanding, it is a fundamental disagreement with the accusers. I know when I'm being condescending, and this isn't it. Maybe I'm being unintentionally so? Okay, but if I'm going to consider that, then the person across from me better have a good rationale for it. My writing style of extensively supporting my points is not what I consider an indicator of that. Nor is my resilience in a discussion point I believe in. Personally, I no longer see how I can broach this topic without backlash when merely mentioning the word sexism is enough to put people in a tizzy without them actually addressing the things I'm saying.

I'm not going to not say what I want to say, how I want to say it to appeal to these kinds of people. So we're stuck in this position where I'm not searching for comraderie among the community and simply seek to speak my piece and be done with it. If there is an ongoing resentment of that, so be it. I can ignore that. But that's not condescension, it's inconsideration for people who I view as being inconsiderate of me in turn.

People sign up for neogaf for discussion, not for the unilateral depositing of their opinions. You've said that your posts are more just to register your ideas publicly, not specifically for discussion. You are not describing a forum, you are describing a blog. When you suggest that people "don't have to reply" you are undermining the fundamental concept of a discussion forum. If you just want to write, go with the blog. It was the right idea when you had it.

No, what I said was that I don't mind if my ideas aren't discussed, not that I desire them not to be. They're for myself in the sense that I would be okay being ignored if other forum goers choose to do so. As I said, look forward to people discussing what I write, just not to the point where if they didn't, I'd stop. And what do you define discussion as if not the multilateral depositing of opinions? All I said was that Neogaf was a place for me to put down my thoughts. And it is, it just isn't only my place. But I never said that it was. Just a place.

...I do not shut down discussion whatsoever, I've had some of the most protracted discussions/arguments with Veelk out of anyone. My arguments have never been "stop talking." I'll get plenty irate/stupid which I regret, but don't group me with people who are saying things like, oh I dunno, "I don't want that bullshit feminist shit in these funny discussion." Their posts are the worst ones of all.

Yeah, as many conversations as we had and not all of them pleasant, I'll give you that you never just tried to shut down the conversation on subject matter alone. Credit where it's due, I respect you for that much atleast.
 

Jarate

Banned
I think if Croc had watched the Gaara/Rock Lee fight, he would never have lost in the desert. Croc uses his sand in cool ways, but he's kind of dumb with it defensively.

Crocodile just didn't expect much out of Luffy, also Gaara doesn't really control his sand, doesn't it just kind of always protect him?
 

Dugna

Member
Crocodile just didn't expect much out of Luffy, also Gaara doesn't really control his sand, doesn't it just kind of always protect him?

Naruto spoiler
The sand is supposed to be his mother I think? So yeah for the longest time he didn't actually control much in terms of defense.
 

bjork

Member
Crocodile just didn't expect much out of Luffy, also Gaara doesn't really control his sand, doesn't it just kind of always protect him?

I think he learned to control it later, but initially, yeah. Just seems weird that Croc can get shot/decapitated/etc and it's just sand, and he can control sandstorms, but he never really made a shield out of sand. I guess maybe he didn't have to expend that much energy with Luffy, but not even a sand clone, iirc. Just getting punched all to pieces by bloody Luffy, ha.
 

Jarate

Banned
I think he learned to control it later, but initially, yeah. Just seems weird that Croc can get shot/decapitated/etc and it's just sand, and he can control sandstorms, but he never really made a shield out of sand. I guess maybe he didn't have to expend that much energy with Luffy, but not even a sand clone, iirc. Just getting punched all to pieces by bloody Luffy, ha.

Doesn't he have a sand shield around his skin or is that Gaara
 

Jarate

Banned
Also, would any of you fellers be interested in running a One Piece D20 game with me?

The system is actually a lot of fun, and I can DM it if you guys would like too
 
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