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[BobTheFork]

I just got around to reading the last chapter. Is Jack's hair supposed to be like Simple Jack from Tropic Thunder because I can't take him seriously now.

 

[Lunar15]

You know, there was that time Garp went back to Windmill Village and put up a sign that it was under his protection. That was probably pretty successful.

 

[Veelk]

Well, if Zenigata was good at his job, Lupin would be in jail and the show would be over.

To be clear, I'm not saying the WG HAS to be competent in all things. Like you said, there is some interest to telling a story about a government that has policies so rigid that they keep doing them despite their ineffectiveness.

What I'm saying is that this is a government that fails so epically at every opportunity that they have zero credibility with me as an agency in the story. Like, the part I'm reading now, it would have been so easy for them to find out something is up with Hancock. She, for no apparent reason, changed her mind, is eating a ridiculous amount, and is acting out of character. Oh, and she wants to see the prisoner that they are preparing for a war over all of a sudden just cuz. Like, they aren't even suspicious of any of this.

Large scale organizations with individual character interactions are very hard to write, but I've seen significantly better examples of such things where the organizations dignity and competence wasn''t sacrificed for the convenience of the narrative. It's doable.

Yeah, it was an important plot point that they didn't even know that Nico Robin knew anything. She just blurted it out when everyone tried to downplay her in front of the marines and only then was a target. She only grew into the importance because she was the only survivor, later.

True. Let me rephrase then.

They killed all the scientists ahead of time. The ship was full of the other survivors. They blew up the ship, specifically in order to kill Robin, and she is the only person they didn't kill.

You know, there was that time Garp went back to Windmill Village and put up a sign that it was under his protection. That was probably pretty successful.

...After Morgan was already defeated, having ruled for...5 years. So, for up to 5 years, Morgan ruled with an iron fist ax, with the WG only stepping in once he was already down and out, with the good marines handling the town.

That's a success in the same sense showing up late enough to only see the end credits is watching a movie.

 

[Blackleg-sanji1]

You know, there was that time Garp went back to Windmill Village and put up a sign that it was under his protection. That was probably pretty successful.

Haha damn straight who's messing with that place knowing that

 

[Chariot]

True. Let me rephrase then.

They killed all the scientists ahead of time. The ship was full of the other survivors. They blew up the ship, specifically in order to kill Robin, and she is the only person they didn't kill.

Still incorrect. Akainu blew the ship up to be throughout. I don't think he personally even knew about Robin at that point, he just wanted to kill everyone to make sure they don't miss anyone.

 

[Veelk]

Still incorrect. Akainu blew the ship up to be throughout. I don't think he personally knew about Robin at that point, he just wanted to kill everyone to make sure they don't miss anyone.

I'll have to double check, but the events I remember went as such

Robin blurted out what she knew
she ran away
they were searching but couldn't find her
Akainu figured she might be on the ship since that was the only way they knew to get out
he blew the ship up
Aokiji found robin and gave her a boat to drift over to a different island

I know he said that "Lets be thorough" but I thought that meant in searching for Robin, not eliminating scholars.

 

[IHaveIce]

Armies in the real world that don't kill children are incompetent.

 

[Chariot]

Nope, I read it up directly. Akainu just killed everyone for the sake of not missing any scholar, it's his form of absolute justice. Whether he knew or not knew about Nico Robin was irrelevant in the first place.

 

[Veelk]

Nope, I read it up directly. Akainu just killed everyone for the sake of not missing any scholar, it's his form of absolute justice.

Hm....Fair enough.

Still, the overall goal was "Don't let any scholars escape." A scholar escaped. I guess I just can't phrase it that they were after Robin in particular.

Armies in the real world that don't kill children are incompetent.

Look, I know you have a bone to pick with me, but if atleast make the strawman subtle if you're going to do it at all.

 

[Kave_Man]

I personally feel once you get to high enough a threat level your bounty is just something like "infinite" or "priceless"

I could be very wrong and I'm fine with that, definitely agree with others that I thought a billion would be the top tier but guess not.

To me there's no way they'd put a bounty on any of the yonkou as I'm sure it's just suicide to try to fight them anyways and not like they aren't well known.

 

[Blackleg-sanji1]

Just read the full spoilers...oda!!! Where is sanji!! Plz!! *blueballs

 

[Lunar15]

Hm....Fair enough.

Still, the overall goal was "Don't let any scholars escape." A scholar escaped. I guess I just can't phrase it that they were after Robin in particular.

But then they put out a warrant for her arrest. I'm not sure what the issue is with this series of events. Were people in the government upset that things didn't go their way? Of course. Aokiji didn't tell them he let her go, so they had to assume that she escaped some other way.

Aokiji's "heart" getting in the way of the Marine's goals did eventually catch up to him: He was passed over for the next Fleet Admiral. It's clear that the head honcohs wanted someone with an Iron fist. It wasn't without consequences.

 

[Chariot]

But then they put out a warrant for her arrest. I'm not sure what the issue is with this series of events. Were people in the government upset that things didn't go their way? Of course. Aokiji didn't tell them he let her go, so they had to assume that she escaped some other way.

Aokiji's "heart" getting in the way of the Marine's goals did eventually catch up to him: He was passed over for the next Fleet Admiral. It's clear that the head honcohs wanted someone with an Iron fist. It wasn't without consequences.

He watched her escape with binoculars. Spandine being butthurt aside, he told the elders that Robin could read porn and thus they put the bounty out on her.

 

[Veelk]

But then they put out a warrant for her arrest. I'm not sure what the issue is with this series of events. Were people in the government upset that things didn't go their way? Of course. Aokiji didn't tell them he let her go, so they had to assume that she escaped some other way.

Aokiji's "heart" getting in the way of the Marine's goals did eventually catch up to him: He was passed over for the next Admiral. It's clear that the head honcohs wanted someone with an Iron fist. It wasn't without consequences.

Again, please look at the greater point I'm making. The Ohara incident was actually pretty well done in terms of how the Marines handled it, as long as you're not looking at it in terms of ethics. They literally did everything they could to make sure nothing escaped and they failed through chance, not incompetence.

But they did fail. And throughout the whole series, whether I can justify it with chance or incompetency or simply the momentary situation, they always fail. Every time. No matter what it is they're trying to accomplish or do.

I don't even know whether this is a bad thing, narratively speaking. But the result of this is that they have no credibility with me as a reader. When they show up wanting to do something, I know they're not going to get what they want. So there's never any tension as far as their agency is concerned, atleast in terms of whether they'll succeed in their goals.

 

[Lunar15]

Again, please look at the greater point I'm making. The Ohara incident was actually pretty well done in terms of how the Marines handled it, as long as you're not looking at it in terms of ethics. They literally did everything they could to make sure nothing escaped and they failed through chance, not incompetence.

But they did fail. And throughout the whole series, whether I can justify it with chance or incompetency or simply the momentary situation, they always fail. Every time. No matter what it is they're trying to accomplish or do.

I don't even know whether this is a bad thing, narratively speaking. But the result of this is that they have no credibility with me as a reader. When they show up wanting to do something, I know they're not going to get what they want. So there's never any tension as far as their agency is concerned.

Arguably, the Marines won the war at Marineford. It had adverse effects, but they killed the man they wanted to kill, killed a Yonkou, and probably captured a ton of pirates.

In fact, it's also an example of a bounty coming to fruition: The Marines put a bounty on Ace, Blackbeard cashed it in, and the Marines were able to successfully execute him despite a full on assault from multiple pirate groups.

The larger point of the story is that, even in victory, the marines are mislead. Anytime they do win, they'll still be undermined, because their way of the world is not how things are supposed to work.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

Again, please look at the greater point I'm making. The Ohara incident was actually pretty well done in terms of how the Marines handled it, as long as you're not looking at it in terms of ethics. They literally did everything they could to make sure nothing escaped and they failed through chance, not incompetence.

But they did fail. And throughout the whole series, whether I can justify it with chance or incompetency or simply the momentary situation, they always fail. Every time. No matter what it is they're trying to accomplish or do.

I don't even know whether this is a bad thing, narratively speaking. But the result of this is that they have no credibility with me as a reader. When they show up wanting to do something, I know they're not going to get what they want. So there's never any tension as far as their agency is concerned, atleast in terms of whether they'll succeed in their goals.

The marines did what they set out to do in the war arc .
Point is the marines have succeed in there goals since they still rule most of the world .
Yes things happen in the OP world that make them look bad but you can never be in control of everything .
Not matter what type of system you have .

 

[Chariot]

Yeah, they definitely won Marinford. Their goal was to execute Ace, while the goal of the pirates was to rescue Ace. Furthermore the pirates couldn't break the defences despite having the strongest man on the seas and his entire fleet (plus, some not insignificant escapees from the worst prison) with them. Marines bled a bit, but they won.

 

[IHaveIce]

He watched her escape with binoculars. Spandine being butthurt aside, he told the elders that Robin could read porn and thus they put the bounty out on her.

I can also read porn :>

 

[Rebel Leader]

I can also read porn :>

You read porn?

What new source of tech are you using?

 

[Veelk]

Arguably, the Marines won the war at Marineford. It had adverse effects, but they killed the man they wanted to kill, killed a Yonkou, and probably captured a ton of pirates.

In fact, it's also an example of a bounty coming to fruition: The Marines put a bounty on Ace, Blackbeard cashed it in, and the Marines were able to successfully execute him despite a full on assault from multiple pirate groups.

The larger point of the story is that, even in victory, the marines are mislead. Anytime they do win, they'll still be undermined, because their way of the world is not how things are supposed to work.

Idk. Whitebeard was a dying man, I'm assuming they knew he was going to keel over on his own. If the mere deaths of these people was all they wanted, it would have been more pragmatic to just wait than enticing a war with him. Execute ace after the fact, and they have a much greater chance of fighting off the Whitebeard pirates. But they wanted drama so they could send a message, and as a result took a larger hit to their forces. So they wave a red cape at the bull so he serves as a lesson to others...,but the message turns into something else.

Winning is accomplishing their goal, Victory is getting what you want. They were going to get the death of Whitebeard anyway, and of ace if they did it at a better time and place. But they created a bigger problem when they wanted it to be smaller.

As a result, it's less that their way of doing things is wrong and more that the way they implement their ways is less effective than it has to be, atleast the way I see it.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

Idk. Whitebeard was a dying man, I'm assuming they knew he was going to keel over on his own. If the mere deaths of these people was all they wanted, it would have been more pragmatic to just wait than enticing a war with him. Execute ace after the fact, and they have a much greater chance of fighting off the Whitebeard pirates. But they wanted drama so they could send a message, and as a result took a larger hit to their forces. So they wave a red cape at the bull so he serves as a lesson to others...,but the message turns into something else.

Winning is accomplishing their goal, Victory is getting what you want. They were going to get the death of Whitebeard anyway, and of ace if they did it at a better time and place. But they created a bigger problem when they wanted it to be smaller.

As a result, it's less that their way of doing things is wrong and more that the way they implement their ways is less effective than it has to be, atleast the way I see it.

Your not making any sense .
If they had waited until WB die and who knows how long that would have been .
Ace would have then become leader of the WB pirates and be even stronger by then .

Also it was only because Ace was there than WB did not sink the island to begin with .
Which is what he would have done if they kill Ace before hand .

 

[Sealed]

hi guys, is there a chapter coming out today?

 

[Veelk]

Your not making any sense .
If they had waited until WB die and who knows how long that would have been .
Ace would have then become leading of the WB pirates and even stronger by then .

Also it was only because Ace was there than WB did not sink the island to begin with .
Which is what he would have done if they kill Ace before hand .

Not very long. Pretty sure they said he was going soon in any case. And even if he wasn't, whiteboard is the most inactive of the yonko. So he sits around in his ship for a while longer soiling himself, big deal.

They also had ace captured. They didn't have to make that public knowledge. Ace had no ongoing contact with anyone as far as anyone can tell. They could have just thrown him in and let him rot. Win by attrition. Worst case scenario, they have to fight whiteboard like they intended anyway

 

[gundamkyoukai]

Not very long. Pretty sure they said he was going soon in any case. And even if he wasn't, whiteboard is the most inactive of the yonko. So he sits around in his ship for a while longer soiling himself, big deal.

They also had ace captured. They didn't have to make that public knowledge. Ace had no ongoing contact with anyone as far as anyone can tell. They could have just thrown him in and let him rot. Win by attrition. Worst case scenario, they have to fight whiteboard like they intended anyway

WB was coming for Ace no matter what , as buggy said you don't touch WB men .
How can they win by attrition when you have a character that can sink islands with ease .
The only thing that keep the marines safe was Ace being there .
After ace die he was going to sink the island and he was way more mess up than he was before the fight .
Also do really think WB won't find out what happen to ace if the just keep him in a cell for months .

 

[Veelk]

WB was coming for Ace no matter what .
As buggy said you don't touch WB men .
How can they win by attrition when you have a character that can sink islands with ease .
The only thing that keep the marines safe was Ace being there .
After ace die he was going to sink the island and he was way more mess up than he was before the fight .

How would WB come for Ace if they didn't publicize that they had ace? Everytime a character goes off, other characters assume they're just doing their own thing. So as far as we know, Ace had no system set up that calls up dear old Papa that tells him he's okay. So they keep ace locked up at the bottom of Impel down, and no one is the wiser because they just assume ace is off doing his own thing elsewhere.

Even Whitebeards powers are avoidable to an extent. He can sink islands with ease? Have Aokiji ice it, now it's a floating glacier. Or else just kidnap another one of his sons, one of the weaker ones. He'd go to these lengths for any of them, so one of them has to be weaker than some others. We already know they can infiltrate the WB pirates via that spider dude or whatever. But anyway, look, this is missing the bigger point. We can play what if's games all day, but is doubly pointless in fiction than it is in real life, but under the writing of Oda, the answer can be anything.

Whitebeard is dead, Ace is dead. Yeah, fine, okay. But what did that actually change? Because that's what they really were after, some form of change in the world balance. They thought it would mean less people would take up piracy. Now more take it up than ever. Perhaps they thought that they'd be able to either get or atleast free up the territories Whitebeard is holding. Nope, they didn't get that either, Blackbeard took over. They wanted to kill Moria. He escaped. A great deal of the Impel Down prisoners escaped. In terms of casualties, we don't actually have that many. Whitebeard, Ace, and an unknown number of marines are the only confirmed kills and captures. And what did they gain? The deaths of those particular people, yes, but given that Blackbeard literally took his place in a more chaotic world, they still have 4 emperors when they wanted to bring it down to 3, a great deal of the pirates they captured now out in the wild, and more pirates starting up than ever before.

As far as I can tell, the war did nothing but worsen their positions.

Edit: and to be clear, the other larger point I'm making from this isn't that "This is wrong". Like, I'm not saying that the marines should have gotten what they wanted in any of these examples in particular. But their consistent and constant failure has just made me not take them in any way seriously as force in this world. At worst, they can make things worse for others as well as themselves. Some parts of this are due to incompetence, some just because they have a bad hand, but it's really hard to feel they are competent when they persistently fail each step of the way. And I personally do not like that, but I'm not sure it is a narrative flaw in the story per se. Maybe the marines are just one huge prank on the leader, as so many readers here are very convinced is the actual cause, and we're just supposed to laugh "Oh, we thought we were getting competent antagonists, but it's just the marines, lol". It's not something I personally like, but it might just be the way the story really wants to portray the WG.

 

[Dugna]

Marines whole reason for publicly executing Ace and not hiding him while waiting for WB to die was because they wanted to wipe out as many New world pirates are possible (which they succeeded at) the only thing they fully screwed up while taking on whitebeard was controlling the overall message.

Also whitebeard would've found out about Ace anyway because of how many pirates have spies in the WG I mean as we have seen with the dressrosa arc they really didn't have much security with their intel for the most trained people.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

Whitebeard is dead, Ace is dead. Yeah, fine, okay. But what did that actually change? Because that's what they really were after, some form of change in the world balance. They thought it would mean less people would take up piracy. Now more take it up than ever. Perhaps they thought that they'd be able to either get or atleast free up the territories Whitebeard is holding. Nope, they didn't get that either, Blackbeard took over. They wanted to kill Moria. He escaped. A great deal of the Impel Down prisoners escaped. In terms of casualties, we don't actually have that many. Whitebeard, Ace, and an unknown number of marines are the only confirmed kills and captures. And what did they gain? The deaths of those particular people, yes, but given that Blackbeard literally took his place in a more chaotic world, they still have 4 emperors when they wanted to bring it down to 3, a great deal of the pirates they captured now out in the wild, and more pirates starting up than ever before.

As far as I can tell, the war did nothing but worsen their positions.

As you say we can play the what if game whole day so i will just stick to these parts .
To them having gold d roger son alive was the greater evil .
Of course if he had live they would have still been 4 emperors.
Since he would just taken over for WB or someone would have taken him out .
Also the marines did not want Moria dead that order was from above them .

Edit: and to be clear, the other larger point I'm making from this isn't that "This is wrong". Like, I'm not saying that the marines should have gotten what they wanted in any of these examples in particular. But their consistent and constant failure has just made me not take them in any way seriously as force in this world. At worst, they can make things worse for others as well as themselves. Some parts of this are due to incompetence, some just because they have a bad hand, but it's really hard to feel they are competent when they persistently fail each step of the way. And I personally do not like that, but I'm not sure it is a narrative flaw in the story per se. Maybe the marines are just one huge prank on the leader, as so many readers here are very convinced is the actual cause, and we're just supposed to laugh "Oh, we thought we were getting competent antagonists, but it's just the marines, lol". It's not something I personally like, but it might just be the way the story really wants to portray the WG.

But you are holding them a impossible standard plus there are only following orders .
They can not full control everything in the world .
For eg they had 2 jailbreaks in there whole history .
That is a great record to have .

 

[Squishy3]

the only thing they fully screwed up while taking on whitebeard was controlling the overall message.

they didn't account for buggy stealing a video den den mushi and broadcasting after they cut the broadcast

 

[igordennis]

When they show up wanting to do something, I know they're not going to get what they want. So there's never any tension as far as their agency is concerned, atleast in terms of whether they'll succeed in their goals.

It should be pretty interesting for you then if there's a time where they actually succeed at their goal lol. It will come as quite a shock to you.

 

[Sibersk Esto]

I feel like this is one of the conversations we've had before

 

[Nightbird]

hi guys, is there a chapter coming out today?

Probably not. Another source for raws has been shut down this week. We might have to wait after the magazine releases inin Japan in the neafuture. re

But you know what? I would be okay with getting the chapters after they release in Japan. I only want my chapters on a weekly schedule. That's all I care about.

 

[LonelyGreyWolf]

I feel like this is one of the conversations we've had before

Yeah, most discussions that aren't about current events are discussions that we've had before, although such is the nature of the forum. Go to page 1 of the gaming section and I can guarantee there will be threads on discussions that have been had before.

 

[Sealed]

Probably not. Another source for raws has been shut down this week. We might have to wait after the magazine releases inin Japan in the neafuture. re

But you know what? I would be okay with getting the chapters after they release in Japan. I only want my chapters on a weekly schedule. That's all I care about.

ok thanks

and i agree, i don't really care when it comes out as long as it sticks to a schedule y'know

 

[ssj5krillhan]

Damn Dragon is the most wanted man in the world, so he has to have the highest bounty right now.

If we are looking at a theme

Kaido (King of Beasts) bounty greater than

Spoiler

1 billion

???? (Queen) bounty greather than

Spoiler

1 billion

(Jack) bounty

Spoiler

1 billion

10 (X Drake) bounty 222,000,000 (wtf?)
Doflamingo (Joker) former bounty (340,000,000) pre time skip

Jack is pretty much

Spoiler

almost double of Ace

Doffy is much much higher, maybe around 500,000,000?
Drake has to of had his gone up as well but I don't see it surpassing Ace.
So that's what i'm taking a look at. I think the Calamties are Queen, Jack, & 10. And no I don't want to hear there should be an Ace here & its Zombie Ace

 

[BobTheFork]

I'm going to assume for no reason that one of the 'cards' is a former Spade pirate who didn't go with ACE to Whitebeard's crew and holds a grudge.

 

[Veelk]

Marines whole reason for publicly executing Ace and not hiding him while waiting for WB to die was because they wanted to wipe out as many New world pirates are possible (which they succeeded at) the only thing they fully screwed up while taking on whitebeard was controlling the overall message.

I think that was Akainu's stated goal. I remember there being a whole scene where Coby screams for the fighting to stop because their goals of killing Whitebeard and Ace have been accomplished, so there was no point to the fight anymore, and Akainu was like "The moment you were talking, pirates weren't dying". But the official goal, I'm pretty sure, was to kill WB and Ace to stop the age of Piracy.

Also whitebeard would've found out about Ace anyway because of how many pirates have spies in the WG I mean as we have seen with the dressrosa arc they really didn't have much security with their intel for the most trained people.

I have my doubts about this. For one, 'honorable' pirates find it beneath them to do obviously pragmatic but otherwise deceptive or cowardly things, and having an extended spy network would probably be one of them for the WB pirates. But even if they are, I still find that doubtful, because they could have covered it up pretty well. Like, Ace was already captured by BB, from there they could have covertly just thrown him in without anyone knowing.

To them having gold d roger son alive was the greater evil .

Well, those are some really skewed priorities then, because as long as he's imprisoned, he's not doing anything, and they have him under their full control. However, there's also another option: Kill him and just don't tell anyone about it.

Of course if he had live they would have still been 4 emperors.

Which is my point exactly. They are taking actions that accomplish nothing except making things worse. With Whitebeard, he was atleast passive and inactive. With Blackbeard, they have an entrepreneur.

But you are holding them a impossible standard plus there are only following orders .
They can not full control everything in the world .
For eg they had 2 jailbreaks in there whole history .
That is a great record to have .

Okay, dude, see, you are like the prime example of why I am convinced people either don't actually read my posts, or else deliberately misrepresent them, because this response is completely irrelevant to what I was saying. I would think phrases like "I'm not saying that the marines should have gotten what they wanted in any of these examples in particular. But their consistent and constant failure has just made me not take them in any way seriously as force in this world. " would make this unambiguously explicit. And I don't mean to make that out to sound like an asshole, it's just that miscommunication when I am being pretty explicit gets tiring.

I am not talking about whether their in-universe reason for their failure is justified, I'm talking about how they are narratively presented as failing every time they appear. It doesn't matter what record they have. Because if the Strawhats run into a marine that has captured 1000000000000000000 New World pirates and never missed a single one, and even took down Yonko crew pirates, and could give Kaido a wedgie, I know he's not capturing jack shit now. Now he's in the narrative arc of One Piece, and that means however good his record might have been, he's going to fail. Right here, right now, he's not getting what he wants. Maybe for a well justified reason. Maybe not. But he's coming up empty. That's what I'm talking about.

It should be pretty interesting for you then if there's a time where they actually succeed at their goal lol. It will come as quite a shock to you.

Eh, who knows. I would hope Akainu would run things better because all he wants to do is kill pirates without worrying about the PR, but then he showed up angry about PR with what Fujitora did, so...meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

 

[ssj5krillhan]

I'm going to assume for no reason that one of the 'cards' is a former Spade pirate who didn't go with ACE to Whitebeard's crew and holds a grudge.

Theres a similarity with Ace & Law not just that both are D's. But Ace had the Spade pirates as you pointed out and Law has the heart pirates. Laws smiley face symbol is similar to Doffy's smiley face. The faces on Aces hat are also similar to Laws smiley face symbol as well.

 

[Lunar15]

Maybe I interpreted the whole situation wrong, but I thought that, once Blackbeard turned in Ace, their entire intention was to execute him since they knew he was the son of the Pirate King. They weren't aiming to get Whitebeard, but they knew he'd come and thus set traps and plans in place to both ensure that he wouldn't get to Ace and also take out he and his army. It was like a bonus.

Now, you could say that their overall goal was to frighten pirates by showing they could end Roger's Age by killing his son and that it backfired, thus ending in failure. All villains that eventually get defeated can only have pyrrhic victories. If they ever won, outright, the show'd be over. There always has to be something that gets away or something that backfires.

In Star Wars, the Empire does indeed arrive on Hoth and lay an imperial smackdown on the Rebel HQ, but they don't accomplish their main goal of eliminating all rebels and actually just force Luke to go find Yoda and accept his eventual destiny of going to the light side of the force. They blow up Alderaan but it hardly slows down the rebellion.

It's just funny because of all the things, the marines are actually the only villain to have effectively killed someone important in the present time. But that's not to say that One Piece lacks any villains with agency. Plenty of villains have executed their plans with success, but eventually they miss some concept and get defeated.

There's plot holes abound, but thematically, everything makes a lot of sense to me. The marines are a good foil to Roger/Whitebeard/Luffy's ideals while also having elements of those ideals in people like Smoker and Aokiji. I see it as the marines are increasingly ineffective in an era that's changing around them. All of their victories backfire because they're struggling to keep up. But I think this is also why Oda actually rarely positions the marines as a direct antagonist in an arc. It's only happened about 3 times total: Whitebeard's War (which they won), Enies Lobby (Which was almost really a coup by CP9), and Morgan, who was positioned as someone so radical that his own men didn't agree with him. We're entering this story after the marines reached full competency: we're seeing their slow, eventual downfall or really, their change into something else.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

I see it as the marines are increasingly ineffective in an era that's changing around them. All of their victories backfire because they're struggling to keep up. But I think this is also why Oda actually rarely positions the marines as a direct antagonist in an arc. It's only happened about 3 times total: Whitebeard's War (which they won), Enies Lobby (Which was almost really a coup by CP9), and Morgan, who was positioned as someone so radical that his own men didn't agree with him.

Yep you can say this is the turn point in history .
We have the marines having to fight on many front now , pirates , revs , even there own people etc etc .

 

[ssj5krillhan]

I have my doubts about this. For one, 'honorable' pirates find it beneath them to do obviously pragmatic but otherwise deceptive or cowardly things, and having an extended spy network would probably be one of them for the WB pirates. But even if they are, I still find that doubtful, because they could have covered it up pretty well. Like, Ace was already captured by BB, from there they could have covertly just thrown him in without anyone knowing.

Which is my point exactly. They are taking actions that accomplish nothing except making things worse. With Whitebeard, he was atleast passive and inactive. With Blackbeard, they have an entrepreneur.

Yes they didn't need to execute him to strike fear in other pirates eyes. I believe it was an order of the world government higher ups who gave the order, just like they told Doffy to kill Moria it comes from much higher up than Sengoku. I think they killed Ace because he is a D. A direct enemy to God that's why. That's why they were willing to almost get all of Marinford recked up & take a huge risk at losing a lot of their forces.

Before Roger there was no Age of Pirates or Pirate King. So why would they kill Roger if he is just a pirate & finished the grand line. Its like Rayleigh stated its because they know what happened in the Void Century, that's why Roger was executed. His execution started the Age of Pirates.

Now, you could say that their overall goal was to frighten pirates by showing they could end Roger's Age by killing his son and that it backfired, thus ending in failure. All villains that eventually get defeated can only have pyrrhic victories. If they ever won, outright, the show'd be over. There always has to be something that gets away or something that backfires.

I don't see how they could end Rogers age by killing his son. So they killed his son, does that mean Kaidou & Big Mom are gonna say well that's it, its time to go home they killed Ace. Sengoku KNEW Whitebeard was going to come & mess shit up. But it was a chance they were willing to take, they knew even if Whitebeard died, it would not stop the powerhouses from being pirates. If they really wanted to strike fear they would have executed the pirates in level 6 at impel down even before Ace got there.

 

[Veelk]

Maybe I interpreted the whole situation wrong, but I thought that, once Blackbeard turned in Ace, their entire intention was to execute him since they knew he was the son of the Pirate King. They weren't aiming to get Whitebeard, but they knew he'd come and thusly set traps and plans in place to both ensure that he wouldn't get to Ace and also take out he and his army. It was like a bonus.

Now, you could say that their overall goal was to frighten pirates by showing they could end Roger's Age by killing his son and that it backfired, thus ending in failure. All villains that eventually get defeated can only have pyrrhic victories. If they ever won, outright, the show'd be over. There always has to be something that gets away or something that backfires.

In your stated case, "Outright winning" would be executing Ace + discouraging future pirates. That wouldn't end the show. Luffy could still be firm in his desire to find One Piece, it's just that meant that there would be fewer future dreamers the way Luffy and Blackbeard and several other pirates are. The WG would definitively state that the age of piracy is over, and they might even be right, but Luffy himself is a dreamer and will struggle against that plague of hopelessness the WG would be trying to enforce by taking away his dream.

I see it as the marines are increasingly ineffective in an era that's changing around them. All of their victories backfire because they're struggling to keep up. But I think this is also why Oda actually rarely positions the marines as a direct antagonist in an arc. It's only happened about 3 times total: Whitebeard's War (which they won), Enies Lobby (Which was almost really a coup by CP9), and Morgan, who was positioned as someone so radical that his own men didn't agree with him.

THat amounts to the same thing that I'm saying. I mean, Yamcha from DBZ was introduced to us as a super badass and no one in the show really questioned his capability. But what was actually shown to the audience was his complete and abject failure in everything he did. You can tell me how he did a whole bunch of cool shit before we met him, or how he's still super strong to all the normal people around him, but what we're actually shown as the audience is nothing but him failing, so it's hard to take him as an agent in the narrative seriously once you notice that whatever he actually tries within the story will inevitably fail.

I don't see how they could end Rogers age by killing his son. So they killed his son, does that mean Kaidou & Big Mom are gonna say well that's it, its time to go home they killed Ace. Sengoku KNEW Whitebeard was going to come & mess shit up. But it was a chance they were willing to take, they knew even if Whitebeard died, it would not stop the powerhouses from being pirates. If they really wanted to strike fear they would have executed the pirates in level 6 at impel down even before Ace got there.

Yeah, that's another thing. I really question who even knew that Roger had a son before they executed him. Would it have been possible for them to just get any random black haired kid and brain him, if the only proof they were providing is that he was Roger's son was their word? Who would even object? Not even Roger's crew seemed to know about his son, or if they did, they wouldn't have seen him since he was a baby so they wouldn't know who he was in adulthood. You'd think if Rayleigh knew about Roger's kid, then he'd have gone to Marineford too.

 

[BobTheFork]

Theres a similarity with Ace & Law not just that both are D's. But Ace had the Spade pirates as you pointed out and Law has the heart pirates. Laws smiley face symbol is similar to Doffy's smiley face. The faces on Aces hat are also similar to Laws smiley face symbol as well.

I had forgotten that we got the Heart and Spade Pirates. I'm also going to assume that Alvida's crew were the Club pirates.

 

[ssj5krillhan]

Yeah, that's another thing. I really question who even knew that Roger had a son before they executed him. Would it have been possible for them to just get any random black haired kid and brain him, if the only proof they were providing is that he was Roger's son was their word? Who would even object? Not even Roger's crew seemed to know about his son, or if they did, they wouldn't have seen him since he was a baby so they wouldn't know who he was in adulthood. You'd think if Rayleigh knew about Roger's kid, then he'd have gone to Marineford too.

Yes Ace met Shanks & Buggy and both did not know who he was, it was really crazy to watch the them meet the Son of their Captain & not know it. And yes you are completely right which cannot be stressed about it enough I am 100% sure if Rayleigh knew who Ace was he would have went to Marineford was well.

I had forgotten that we got the Heart and Spade Pirates. I'm also going to assume that Alvida's crew were the Club pirates.

That's a good catch but I think the Club or Diamond pirates would be much stronger than her tbh. Also we never really knew why Law went to Marineford, I think Ace was still alive when he left with his crew from Saboady. There is no way Law knew Luffy would need his help & that Law would risk his entire crews life just to save Luffy. Either Law has a connection with Ace & went there for Ace or he wants D to cook up a storm & which is why he went for Luffy, still hard for Law though to know that Luffy needed his help.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

That's a good catch but I think the Club or Diamond pirates would be much stronger than her tbh. Also we never really knew why Law went to Marineford, I think Ace was still alive when he left with his crew from Saboady. There is no way Law knew Luffy would need his help & that Law would risk his entire crews life just to save Luffy. Either Law has a connection with Ace & went there for Ace or he wants D to cook up a storm & which is why he went for Luffy, still hard for Law though to know that Luffy needed his help.

Don't forget law is also a D and it seem he was playing the long game to get luffy to help him with don and the yonko .

 

[Squishy3]

That's a good catch but I think the Club or Diamond pirates would be much stronger than her tbh. Also we never really knew why Law went to Marineford, I think Ace was still alive when he left with his crew from Saboady. There is no way Law knew Luffy would need his help & that Law would risk his entire crews life just to save Luffy. Either Law has a connection with Ace & went there for Ace or he wants D to cook up a storm & which is why he went for Luffy, still hard for Law though to know that Luffy needed his help.

He went to Marineford to watch the events unfold after the video feed was cut.

 

[LonelyGreyWolf]

He went to Marineford to watch the events unfold after the video feed was cut.

Yeah, I'd say it was just luck that he happened to be at that exact place at that exact time. Just like in every movie and TV series ever.

Also, the Ace (Spade pirates) and Alvida (Club pirates) have most likely nothing to do with the Hearts pirates. Spade just means luck, and Alvida fights with a club. Doffy's family was built up using these four symbols (and Doffy himself being the joker), but of course Ace and Alvida weren't part of his family.

 

[Lunar15]

Yes they didn't need to execute him to strike fear in other pirates eyes. I believe it was an order of the world government higher ups who gave the order, just like they told Doffy to kill Moria it comes from much higher up than Sengoku. I think they killed Ace because he is a D. A direct enemy to God that's why. That's why they were willing to almost get all of Marinford recked up & take a huge risk at losing a lot of their forces.

Before Roger there was no Age of Pirates or Pirate King. So why would they kill Roger if he is just a pirate & finished the grand line. Its like Rayleigh stated its because they know what happened in the Void Century, that's why Roger was executed. His execution started the Age of Pirates.



I don't see how they could end Rogers age by killing his son. So they killed his son, does that mean Kaidou & Big Mom are gonna say well that's it, its time to go home they killed Ace. Sengoku KNEW Whitebeard was going to come & mess shit up. But it was a chance they were willing to take, they knew even if Whitebeard died, it would not stop the powerhouses from being pirates. If they really wanted to strike fear they would have executed the pirates in level 6 at impel down even before Ace got there.

I think it was more a show of "Even Roger's progeny can't escape us, so don't go out and try to be pirates". They thought they could defeat the allure of Roger's treasure. I don't think it was intended to stop powerhouses, but keep more people from throwing their hat into the ring. Whitebeard saw this and said, "Fuck you, I'm going to turn your plan on its head".

But yes, they also executed because Rogers' blood flowed through his veins. Putting the announcement on camera, however, was supposed to strike fear.

 

[Squishy3]

Yeah, I'd say it was just luck that he happened to be at that exact place at that exact time. Just like in every movie and TV series ever.

Plus he said he found Luffy interesting after Luffy punched the Celestial Dragon, so makes sense he'd be willing to help him, since his legacy was only just beginning. And a favor to call in later, which Luffy probably over delivered on.

 

[Johnlenham]

That last panel of Jack makes him look like White Beard

 

[More Fun To Compute]

Oh my god there is smoke coming out of Brook's eyes someone call a doctor.