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[MCD]

It'd be a more convincing argument was the one to actually beat cracker. Like, the one to deal damage and knock him the fuck out of the island. When people say that women in OP aren't involved in combat, that by and large excludes support. What it means is that women don't get the opportunity to jump in the real hard shit violence of one piece. Like how Rebecca, despite being a warrior, not only didn't have any major fight and had to be saved several times but also had an entire combat style that just happened to be designed around not seriously injuring an opponent for no reason reason. Stupid shit like "Bitches look better in dresses" isn't nearly as important as that." And it also means that it is the general rule, so even if you find one single exception, like Big Mom seems to be, it doesn't change that the vast majority of women are relegated away from the action.

Call me when Nami is either on the giving or recieving end of something like that in atleast 5 fights against major antagonists and we'll talk.

eh. my definition of bad ass characters aren't defined by seeing x character punching y character. e.g. all legend of the galactic heroes characters are great and all they do is drink tea and troll in space.

I dunno. not gonna delve more in this discussion. feel free to do so though.

 

[Neoriceisgood]

Rebecca and her entire character arc were trash.


That aside, I think a big glaring flaw with one piece and many other shonen series is that they love doing all sorts of shit with regards to female tropes and portrayal that just piles onto eachother.


One example outside of one piece: I've always found that Fairy Tale technically does a better job at giving female characters action-based fights that are more downright physical and significant compared to One Piece.

On the flipside, FT loves sexualizing female characters at every possible moment. fighting? sexualize it. dying? sexualize it. getting tortured? sexualize it. dramatic emotional moment? sexualize it.
A series can simultaneously do something good (lots of strong or important female characters) while also being about as bad at portraying characters in a decent humanizing way. (by trying to get sexy "fanservice" shots in even when a girl is dying from being impaled, for example).


One Piece is kind of an odd case because due to sheer length of the series & oda's style and aesthetics it has a simpson-like ability to have had almost any possible possible character type at some point.
The result of this is that "oda's women look the same" & "oda's women are some of the most diverse in manga" are both true depending on where you place your focus.

While I think OP has some really fun and interesting designs for female characters, like otohime, perona (face, at least), boa's sister who looks like hey arnold & various less important characters; it's also obvious that when Oda feels like drawing "sexah woman" he often resorts to basically drawing nami clones.

Nami, Robin, Tashigi, Alvida, Kalifa, Perona (her body at least), Boa Hancock, Rebecca, Miss doublefinger etc etc all fit a pretty blatant template.

While some people may actively support creepy fanservice & waifu bait designs, I do think when somebody's reaction to this is negative it'll add a bunch of background noise while reading OP. Which brings me to the current discussion:

In isolation Sanji's chivalry is kinda odd and regressive, but it can also be seen as just a character trait; "oh sanji's weird with woman & he's a hypocrite cause he's also a perv".
Which is ... eh. Not the best trait, not the worst ... but simultaneously it's not like Sanji's the only character with weird woman stuff.

The weird ass Zoro-Monet stuff aside, one thing that annoyed the hell out of me personally is that in the new world we basically had:

Sanji, Kinemon, Brook & that little brat all as pervs with creepy ass jokes sexualizing nami and robin. (bonus points for throwing in fanservice that implies the little molester kid took baths with the female characters that were clearly sexualized in the art, basically making it seem like the visuals suggested "these pervs have a point";
Even if a single character having weird views on women can be seen as just a trait if isolated, when half the crew is perving over girls who are sexualized to the readers & even the non-pervs randomly get "lol women" traits in combat ... it sure feels like oda loves him some ...weird gendered tropes. (not to mention the whole nami/robin blankfacing franky thing)

/fake edit: I'm not even gonna go into the weird ass franky hard-boiled fight where he just randomly kisses that villain woman.

Even if you don't like the word sexist for it, there's a clear gender-esentialist streak to oda's humor and writing where a lot of jokes seem to be derived from "boys will be boys" & "girls will be girls"-type of writing.


Now does this mean Oda's writing is the worst ever and his female portrayals are completely irredeemable and without positive points? I don't think so.

Despite having more straight up physical fighters fairy tale manages to throw in fanservice at so many inappropriate moments that it manages to beat OP in my eyes by just being so damn in your face with the creepy objectification.


In my view OP's biggest issue is that unlike FT's one clear issue, there's just all these little grievances that can be explained away individually, that do add up over time.

On paper Nico Robin's my favorite strawhat & I've been wanting some more cool and interesting moments for her. Especially as she's basically never had a good 1 vs 1 beyond that turd priest in Skypiea. So what do we get in dressrosa?
... a bunch of fanservice jokes here and there (bathing with the creepy kid, getting tied up by tontatta) and when it seems like she'll finally get her big 1 on 1 ... she's just there to protect Rebecca. (who's fucking shit btw).

I could probably name a thousand moments like that, which are "logical" within the narrative. (yeah sure, diamante should be beaten by rebecca or kyros) but which just add to the irritations I have with OP and gender stuff.

Like any time a really major or powerful new female character in OP shows up my gut reaction is: "I bet she has a devil fruit power that can instantly disable opponents without actually needing to fight that much".

Why do I think that? Cause Kalifa, Perona, Hancock, Giola, Sugar, Mirror-Lady, a bunch of movie characters all follow that trope.



I notice that a lot of the arguments here are fairly "I found this moment to feel sorta sexist" with the rebuttle being "yeah but it made sense" or "yeah but this char is cool and strong"; but if stuff like that bothers you at all, OP has a ton of it.




Anyway sorry for rambling.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

When it comes to the sexist stuff not everyone going to view that stuff the same way .
Then again i think some people expect more of OP than they should .

 

[Veelk]

That sums it up is probably better than I could.

 

[NSESN]

Rebecca and her entire character arc were trash.


That aside, I think a big glaring flaw with one piece and many other shonen series is that they love doing all sorts of shit with regards to female tropes and portrayal that just piles onto eachother.


One example outside of one piece: I've always found that Fairy Tale technically does a better job at giving female characters action-based fights that are more downright physical and significant compared to One Piece.

On the flipside, FT loves sexualizing female characters at every possible moment. fighting? sexualize it. dying? sexualize it. getting tortured? sexualize it. dramatic emotional moment? sexualize it.
A series can simultaneously do something good (lots of strong or important female characters) while also being about as bad at portraying characters in a decent humanizing way. (by trying to get sexy "fanservice" shots in even when a girl is dying from being impaled, for example).


One Piece is kind of an odd case because due to sheer length of the series & oda's style and aesthetics it has a simpson-like ability to have had almost any possible possible character type at some point.
The result of this is that "oda's women look the same" & "oda's women are some of the most diverse in manga" are both true depending on where you place your focus.

While I think OP has some really fun and interesting designs for female characters, like otohime, perona (face, at least), boa's sister who looks like hey arnold & various less important characters; it's also obvious that when Oda feels like drawing "sexah woman" he often resorts to basically drawing nami clones.

Nami, Robin, Tashigi, Alvida, Kalifa, Perona (her body at least), Boa Hancock, Rebecca, Miss doublefinger etc etc all fit a pretty blatant template.

While some people may actively support creepy fanservice & waifu bait designs, I do think when somebody's reaction to this is negative it'll add a bunch of background noise while reading OP. Which brings me to the current discussion:

In isolation Sanji's chivalry is kinda odd and regressive, but it can also be seen as just a character trait; "oh sanji's weird with woman & he's a hypocrite cause he's also a perv".
Which is ... eh. Not the best trait, not the worst ... but simultaneously it's not like Sanji's the only character with weird woman stuff.

The weird ass Zoro-Monet stuff aside, one thing that annoyed the hell out of me personally is that in the new world we basically had:

Sanji, Kinemon, Brook & that little brat all as pervs with creepy ass jokes sexualizing nami and robin. (bonus points for throwing in fanservice that implies the little molester kid took baths with the female characters that were clearly sexualized in the art, basically making it seem like the visuals suggested "these pervs have a point";
Even if a single character having weird views on women can be seen as just a trait if isolated, when half the crew is perving over girls who are sexualized to the readers & even the non-pervs randomly get "lol women" traits in combat ... it sure feels like oda loves him some ...weird gendered tropes. (not to mention the whole nami/robin blankfacing franky thing)

/fake edit: I'm not even gonna go into the weird ass franky hard-boiled fight where he just randomly kisses that villain woman.

Even if you don't like the word sexist for it, there's a clear gender-esentialist streak to oda's humor and writing where a lot of jokes seem to be derived from "boys will be boys" & "girls will be girls"-type of writing.


Now does this mean Oda's writing is the worst ever and his female portrayals are completely irredeemable and without positive points? I don't think so.

Despite having more straight up physical fighters fairy tale manages to throw in fanservice at so many inappropriate moments that it manages to beat OP in my eyes by just being so damn in your face with the creepy objectification.


In my view OP's biggest issue is that unlike FT's one clear issue, there's just all these little grievances that can be explained away individually, that do add up over time.

On paper Nico Robin's my favorite strawhat & I've been wanting some more cool and interesting moments for her. Especially as she's basically never had a good 1 vs 1 beyond that turd priest in Skypiea. So what do we get in dressrosa?
... a bunch of fanservice jokes here and there (bathing with the creepy kid, getting tied up by tontatta) and when it seems like she'll finally get her big 1 on 1 ... she's just there to protect Rebecca. (who's fucking shit btw).

I could probably name a thousand moments like that, which are "logical" within the narrative. (yeah sure, diamante should be beaten by rebecca or kyros) but which just add to the irritations I have with OP and gender stuff.

Like any time a really major or powerful new female character in OP shows up my gut reaction is: "I bet she has a devil fruit power that can instantly disable opponents without actually needing to fight that much".

Why do I think that? Cause Kalifa, Perona, Hancock, Giola, Sugar, Mirror-Lady, a bunch of movie characters all follow that trope.



I notice that a lot of the arguments here are fairly "I found this moment to feel sorta sexist" with the rebuttle being "yeah but it made sense" or "yeah but this char is cool and strong"; but if stuff like that bothers you at all, OP has a ton of it.




Anyway sorry for rambling.

I would write something when i get back from college, but you wrote my thoughts better than i would.

 

[Cloud Strife]

Good write up Neorice.

My thoughts on Zeff are the same as most here, but I wish we'd get an explanation on his reasoning which I doubt we ever will. Probably the more annoying thing is that it will go completely unexplained as a matter of factly thing.

As for the rest, yeah it's problematic. Oda has time and time again failed to treat his characters equitably regarding fights, oppertunities, and blows. Carrot is a breath of fresh air for me (and perhaps most), but I think the more annoying thing is that he has every reason to not follow the trend with the dozens of new characters introduced.

It might be seem as hand waving, but my thoughts are we all know the reason why. A combination of his idealism, the magazine, shounen culture...some one here once posted stats that showed that both girls and boys equally read Shonen, but there was nothing of substance to the data (metrics, sampling).

Y'all are gonna have a heart attack when we get to Wano

 

[gundamkyoukai]

Good write up Neorice.

My thoughts on Zeff are the same as most here, but I wish we'd get an explanation on his reasoning which I doubt we ever will. Probably the more annoying thing is that it will go completely unexplained as a matter of factly thing.

As for the rest, yeah it's problematic. Oda has time and time again failed to treat his characters equitably regarding fights, oppertunities, and blows. Carrot is a breath of fresh air for me (and perhaps most), but I think the more annoying thing is that he has every reason to not follow the trend with the dozens of new characters introduced.

It might be seem as hand waving, but my thoughts are we all know the reason why. A combination of his idealism, the magazine, shounen culture...some one here once posted stats that showed that both girls and boys equally read Shonen, but there was nothing of substance to the data (metrics, sampling).

Y'all are gonna have a heart attack when we get to Wano

I don't know why some people expect that .
OP has been going on for near 20 years and it base on shonen\ Japanese television that Oda read\see growing up.
As you said we know some of the reasons why this stuff not going to change.

 

[MANUELF]

I agree that both Robin and Nami are long overdue to a fight since they Were the only ones who didnt have a fighting partner in Fishmam Island and for some reason Oda only want them to fight other women, Nami fights have been against Miss Doublefinger and Kalifa who both Were full of fanservice and they never took Nami seriously, they could have killed her at any moment if they wanted to

Now Robin only fight has been against Yama in Skypeia and she won it the moment she got serious, the problem with her is her devil fruit, she is not ideal for a long fight since she herself said her especiality is assassination not drawn out fights plus Oda dont want to portrait women as hitting each other and we know very little important women pirates, Big Mom, Whitey Bay and Bonney are the only ones that come to mind

 

[marmoka]

Gear Fourth is getting hilarious as fuck!! That last segment was quite bizarre!

About Sanji never kicking a woman,... I expected something different. Like a very traumatic happening. But anyway, who am I to judge laws that are more ancient than the dinosaurs?

 

[Neoriceisgood]

Now Robin only fight has been against Yama in Skypeia and she won it the moment she got serious, the problem with her is her devil fruit, she is not ideal for a long fight since she herself said her especiality is assassination not drawn out fights plus Oda dont want to portrait women as hitting each other.

I think Nico Robin's power being tricky to write around would be less of a problem if Oda wrote her more akin to usopp where she's faced with an opponent her power isn't ideal for, but she uses her intelligence to find a way through.

(e.g. when she tried to use water to stab and assassinate crocodile)


The issue is that the only time we see Robin use her powers against somebody important, it's almost always to show how her technique won't work & she'll get immediately eliminated afterwards.

Happened with oars/moria, sugar & croc.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

I agree that both Robin and Nami are long overdue to a fight since they Were the only ones who didnt have a fighting partner in Fishmam Island and for some reason Oda only want them to fight other women, Nami fights have been against Miss Doublefinger and Kalifa who both Were full of fanservice and they never took Nami seriously, they could have killed her at any moment if they wanted to

Now Robin only fight has been against Yama in Skypeia and she won it the moment she got serious, the problem with her is her devil fruit, she is not ideal for a long fight since she herself said her especiality is assassination not drawn out fights plus Oda dont want to portrait women as hitting each other and we know very little important women pirates, Big Mom, Whitey Bay and Bonney are the only ones that come to mind

Oda wrote him self into a corner when it comes to robin powers .
Since she hold damage from her limbs that really makes do fights with her a problem .
I expect we going to get a better fight with Nami than we ever going to get with Robin .

I think Nico Robin's power being tricky to write around would be less of a problem if Oda wrote her more akin to usopp where she's faced with an opponent her power isn't ideal for, but she uses her intelligence to find a way through.

(e.g. when she tried to use water to stab and assassinate crocodile)


The issue is that the only time we see Robin use her powers against somebody important, it's almost always to show how her technique won't work & she'll get immediately eliminated afterwards.

Happened with oars/moria, sugar & croc.

Even then robin power not going to work in long fights or people that physical stronger than her .

 

[Neoriceisgood]

how to write a good robin fight:

1. robin uses her power
2. it doesn't work cause of reasons [e.g. logia]
3. robin isn't instantly KO-ed as a consequence
4. robin uses her "one of the most intelligent op chars" level of intelligence to find a workaround.
5. have robin get hurt, and take some damage like any strawhat, but still persist.
6. have robin use something super clever and unexpected to take down an enemy she couldn't hurt with her power alone.

Even then robin power not going to work in long fights or people that physical stronger than her .

Usopp took a 4 ton bat to the face and still won a fight against two characters physically stronger than him, Robin'll be fine.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

how to write a good robin fight:

1. robin uses her power
2. it doesn't work cause of reasons [e.g. logia]
3. robin isn't instantly KO-ed as a consequence
4. robin uses her "one of the most intelligent op chars" level of intelligence to find a workaround.
5. have robin get hurt, and take some damage like any strawhat, but still persist.
6. have robin use something super clever and unexpected to take down an enemy she couldn't hurt with her power alone.



Usopp took a 4 ton bat to the face and still won a fight against two characters physically stronger than him, Robin'll be fine.

Ussop and chopper won that fight together .

 

[Neoriceisgood]

Ussop and chopper won that fight .

I'm just pointing out that "oh no her arms get hurt" isn't a default loss, I know chopper played a role in that battle too.

You talk like "Since she hold damage from her limbs that really makes do fights with her a problem ." is some sort of damning trait for Robin, while we've seen strawhats take damage that should kill a regular person.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

I'm just pointing out that "oh no her arms get hurt" isn't a default loss, I know chopper played a role in that battle too.

You talk like "Since she hold damage from her limbs that really makes do fights with her a problem ." is some sort of damning trait for Robin, while we've seen strawhats take damage that should kill a regular person.

You can't look and say luffy , Sanji etc etc take this amount of damage so can robin , Brook , etc etc
Same for any other characters when it comes to fights .
Her limbs taking damage \getting effect by DF is a huge disadvantage to her .
Since that is what she use to both attack and defend with .

 

[Neoriceisgood]

You can't look and say

Yes I can, why can't I?

luffy , Sanji etc etc take this amount of damage so can robin , Brook , etc etc

I wasn't saying Luffy or Robin, I was specifically talking about how Usopp, one of the weakest straw hats, took a 2 ton bat to the face that was shown to basically shatter his skull and:

a. still finished his fight
b. got better.

Just saying "You can't say that" isn't a counter argument. There's no reason Robin possibly taking damage disqualifies her from a decent 1 on 1 fight.

YHer limbs taking damage \getting effect by DF is a huge disadvantage to her .
Since that is what she use to both attack and defend with .

Yeah it's a disadvantage to her. So? Usopp being weak is a disadvantage, Gear 4th having cooldown is a disadvantage, Sanji being a jobber is a disadvantage, Franky's back not being properly reinforced is a disadvantage.

Having disadvantages and advantages is meant to make a fight interesting. Just cause Oda doesn't write it doesn't mean that means it's impossible.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

Yes I can, why can't I?

I wasn't saying Luffy or Robin, I was specifically talking about how Usopp, one of the weakest straw hats, took a 2 ton bat to the face that was shown to basically shatter his skull and:

a. still finished his fight
b. got better.

Just saying "You can't say that" isn't a counter argument. There's no reason Robin possibly taking damage disqualifies her from a decent 1 on 1 fight.

Just because ussop can take a huge amount of damage don't mean robin can .
Chopper is part of the weakest trio do you think robin can take more damage than him ?

Yeah it's a disadvantage to her. So? Usopp being weak is a disadvantage, Gear 4th having cooldown is a disadvantage, Sanji being a jobber is a disadvantage, Franky's back not being properly reinforced is a disadvantage.

Having disadvantages and advantages is meant to make a fight interesting. Just cause Oda doesn't write it doesn't mean that means it's impossible.

I should have ask at first what you call a interesting fight .

 

[TheFlow]

There is no excuse for why robin and Nami don't fight. He'll there abilities are great for support as well. But yea if pre time skip usopp could put in some work no reason post time skip girls can't

 

[Neoriceisgood]

Just because ussop can take a huge amount of damage don't mean robin can .
Chopper is part of the weakest trio do you think robin can take more damage than him ?

Did I ever argue Robin can take more damage than Usopp? I'm saying that taking damage, even taking severe damage, shouldn't exclude someone from fighting.

Usopp is supposed to be a regular kid without any special powers, yet he happily walked away from having his skill cracked.

In a universe where that's okay, I see no reason Robin taking damage is "Writing yourself in a corner".

I should have ask at first what you call a interesting fight .

Plenty of things can make a fight interesting.

emotional investment is a big one for me, it's why my fav OP fight is usopp v.s. luffy.

Underdogs using clever tactics/plans to defeat an enemy seemingly out of their league; this is a reason I find a lot of usopp's fights interesting. (usopp v.s. perona is a highlight)

unexpected/fun tactics or reveals: I thought the way luffy beat cracker was hilarious.

Nothing about Robin or her power should exclude her from any of these, unless the author lacks imagination or has no true interest in giving a character fights.



/slight edit

Keep in mind that none of the reasons you're giving seem to prevent Robin from stomping on faceless mooks who are fully armed.

 

[Ganzlinger]

I'm glad that people here understand that Sanji's characterization problems regarding women comes from Oda and his sexist views, in his mind those traits are not supposed to be bad. Of course, people can hate the character as much as they want, but they also should criticize the author for treating women differently. At least you guys are coherent.

 

[Veelk]

I just want to say, Neorice, it's sooooooooooo relieving not to have to be the one to write all this shit out for once.

I'm glad that people here understand that Sanji's characterization problems regarding women comes from Oda and his sexist views, in his mind those traits are not supposed to be bad. Of course, people can hate the character as much as they want, but they also should criticize the author for treating women differently. At least you guys are coherent.

With respect, I disagree. I never thing we should make assumptions about the author based on their fiction, however obvious it seems and maybe even probably is. I think it's best to focus the attack on the work itself, not the person producing it specifically because of what they are: A person, whereas a work of fiction is an object. When you attack a person, it's...well, personal. It's just a good rule of thumb that mostly works for me. And still....regardless of what Oda says in his fiction, or even in his interviews, none of us really know him personally. I don't feel comfortable calling someone anything on those grounds.

 

[MetatronM]

Call me when Nami is either on the giving or recieving end of something like that in atleast 5 fights against major antagonists and we'll talk.

It's almost as if Luffy is the main protagonist and Nami is not...

 

[Veelk]

It's almost as if Luffy is the main protagonist and Nami is not...

Shit, you're right. I guess I forgot that Luffy is the only strawhat that ever gets into fights. You'd think Zoro would be doing something with those swords once in a while, right? I guess their just decorative.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

Did I ever argue Robin can take more damage than Usopp? I'm saying that taking damage, even taking severe damage, shouldn't exclude someone from fighting.

Usopp is supposed to be a regular kid without any special powers, yet he happily walked away from having his skill cracked.

In a universe where that's okay, I see no reason Robin taking damage is "Writing yourself in a corner".

Ussop is far from regular kid at this point in time but that is another debate .
Write your self in corner as in the type of fights she can get or the way she can handle them was my point .
Not that she can't take damage or fight since we know that going to happen .

Plenty of things can make a fight interesting.

emotional investment is a big one for me, it's why my fav OP fight is usopp v.s. luffy.

The fight it self was not that interesting IMO.
Character interactions and reason were but not the fight it self .
Would be nice if oda set up something like that for other characters but i just don't see it happening after there main arc .
Other than with luffy .

Underdogs using clever tactics/plans to defeat an enemy seemingly out of their league; this is a reason I find a lot of usopp's fights interesting. (usopp v.s. perona is a highlight)

unexpected/fun tactics or reveals: I thought the way luffy beat cracker was hilarious.

Nothing about Robin or her power should exclude her from any of these, unless the author lacks imagination or has no true interest in giving a character fights.

Would have to see happen before i say if it good\interesting because those thing by there self don't mean it will be good .
As for the second part we all know that if Oda did a fight with robin and it end on a joke.
The first thing people would say is after all this while oda did a joke fight with her .

I should also note i don't find ussop fights that good .

Keep in mind that none of the reasons you're giving seem to prevent Robin from stomping on faceless mooks who are fully armed.

And there nothing interesting about her doing it either .
It's the same reason people don't care about her fight with the fishman .

I'm glad that people here understand that Sanji's characterization problems regarding women comes from Oda and his sexist views, in his mind those traits are not supposed to be bad. Of course, people can hate the character as much as they want, but they also should criticize the author for treating women differently. At least you guys are coherent.

I really hope that this is a joke post , sometimes it's hard to tell.

With respect, I disagree. I never thing we should make assumptions about the author based on their fiction, however obvious it seems and maybe even probably is. I think it's best to focus the attack on the work itself, not the person producing it specifically because of what they are: A person, whereas a work of fiction is an object. When you attack a person, it's...well, personal. It's just a good rule of thumb that mostly works for me. And still....regardless of what Oda says in his fiction, or even in his interviews, none of us really know him personally. I don't feel comfortable calling someone anything on those grounds.

Veelk we fully agree on something .

 

[Tathanen]

I dunno, discerning the "why" for things is a big part of how I function, rather than just taking things on their face. As such, if the "why" is due to an author's thought process, I'm interested in knowing that.

Death of the author requires a degree of willfull ignorance I can't quite muster. I get it, I get why you'd want to interpret a work based solely on its own qualities, and the critical benefits of doing so. But I just can't treat that like the only method of interpreting a work.

 

[MetatronM]

Shit, you're right. I guess I forgot that Luffy is the only strawhat that ever gets into fights. You'd think Zoro would be doing something with those swords once in a while, right? I guess their just decorative.

Name 5 major antagonists that Zoro has wrecked.

I'm not going to argue that One Piece doesn't have a definite "traditional"/sexist streak much of the time. Only that your arbitrary standards are illogical and irrelevant.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

I dunno, discerning the "why" for things is a big part of how I function, rather than just taking things on their face. As such, if the "why" is due to an author's thought process, I'm interested in knowing that.

Death of the author requires a degree of willfull ignorance I can't quite muster. I get it, I get why you'd want to interpret a work based solely on its own qualities, and the critical benefits of doing so. But I just can't treat that like the only method of interpreting a work.

I can understand that but that is a rabbit hole.
Lets take sanji for eg are you going use him to get some view into how oda really is ?
When the same author has other characters saying how stupid , extreme etc etc his view of the world is .

 

[UnemployedVillain]

I'm glad that people here understand that Sanji's characterization problems regarding women comes from Oda and his sexist views, in his mind those traits are not supposed to be bad. Of course, people can hate the character as much as they want, but they also should criticize the author for treating women differently. At least you guys are coherent.

What are you talking about? Why do you think ONLY Sanji holds those views and other characters call him out on how stupid it is? Why do you think Oda intentionally put him in a fight where his chivalry almost got him killed with the Khalifa fight? Why do you think this arc had a character specifically asking him about his chivalry? You're just projecting your own disappointment and thoughts on it

 

[Veelk]

I dunno, discerning the "why" for things is a big part of how I function, rather than just taking things on their face. As such, if the "why" is due to an author's thought process, I'm interested in knowing that.

Death of the author requires a degree of willfull ignorance I can't quite muster. I get it, I get why you'd want to interpret a work based solely on its own qualities, and the critical benefits of doing so. But I just can't treat that like the only method of interpreting a work.

Well, I can understand that, because that's basically validation, the idea that your hypothesis is true and all via the source telling you it is.

But I've talked to many kinds of artists and done writing myself and when you get down to it, intentions are an illusive, vague, and impermanent thing. A writer can write a scene with some intention, but then whne revising that scene, they write it with different intentions. Often, they don't write with any particular intention and just follow through on what they believe would be the natural process. And this is assuming that our intentions are fully within our control at all. As if doubts about a particular world view, if we're writing about that, don't creep in. Combine those unconcious processes with the notoriously faulty memory people have, even if an author outright states "I thought this when writing that scene" you have good room to doubt.

I don't see it as willful ignorance, more like acknowledged ignorance. It's not just that I prioritize the value of work itself, it's more that, even if Oda swears on his mother what his intentions were, I still have reason to doubt it.

But besides that, what do we actually have that indicates Oda's thought process besides his work? Some SBS interviews, atleast half of which are facetious and pretty much all of which are short? I'm willing to believe some longer interviews more, like the one where he explained why he didn't like having his characters say they'll kill people, but those are somewhat scarce from what I understand.

I won't say it's the only method of interpreting a work, I just feel it's the cleanest. Trying to figure out the thought process of someone isn't just hard, it's impossible. Working with what you actually have just seems like it gets the most concrete results.

Name 5 major antagonists that Zoro has wrecked.

I'm not going to argue that One Piece doesn't have a definite "traditional"/sexist streak much of the time. Only that your arbitrary standards are illogical and irrelevant.

Well, you're clearly misunderstanding what I mean by major antagonist if your seriously asking that question. A major antagonist is anybody whose a major part of the big bad ensemble of any given arc. Zoro has taken down atleast 1 major antagonist per arc, every arc, except the ones where he was absent. Most of them are the main villain's #2 guys. I wasn't suggesting that Nami take out the actual boss, like Big mom and shit, just someone major. If they have a high place in the hierarchy of their gang, they qualify. The mirror witch here would work, if Nami managed to use traditionally violent means to beat her ass down. Something that involves Nami hitting her, and her hitting Nami. As is, they kind of just fought with magic.

 

[Omnistalgic]

What did Luffy even do in this chapter to biscuit man? Lol

 

[BatDan]

I think some people here think Robin is "worthless" because she doesn't fight.
Never mind that she's probably the most important character in terms of solving the series' greatest mysteries. Only she can read the Poneglyphs, and it's confirmed that the Poneglyphs are the key to getting to Raftel. Basically, she's majorly important in finding the One Piece.

Nami too, she's the crew's navigator, without her they would constantly be lost. They only got to Zou because of Law's Vivre Card.

Just because they don't "fight" doesn't mean they're worthless. Frankly, I'm tired of this "Oda is Sexist" narrative that people are trying to push. If he suddenly pauses a big moment to go into a diatribe about how women are the worst a/la Dave Sim, then we'll talk.

 

[Neoriceisgood]

I think some people here think Robin is "worthless" because she doesn't fight.
Never mind that she's probably the most important character in terms of solving the series' greatest mysteries. Only she can read the Poneglyphs, and it's confirmed that the Poneglyphs are the key to getting to Raftel. Basically, she's majorly important in finding the One Piece.

One of shonen's defining points as a genre is the emphasis on fighting.

I'm not talking about Robin being "worthless" within the diegesis of the story, she's arguably the least replacable strawhat out of any due to everyone else with her skill getting buster call'd.

I like Robin, I like Robin's personality, I think Robin's power is genuinly fun and unique. I want to see her do more cool shit.

Because OP's a shonen manga "cool shit" usually translates to fighting.

Oda doesn't give Robin any interesting fights aside from stomping fodder.

Nothing there about "worthless".

 

[UnemployedVillain]

Because OP's a shonen manga "cool shit" usually translates to fighting.

This is why talking about OP here is somewhat frustrating for me. Yes, it's a shonen, but it's primarily an adventure manga. Way more effort goes into the worldbuilding and characters. Yet everytime we see new potential antagonists the discussion always devolves into "Fights? Matchups? Is Luffy strong enough to take on x Emperor?" and it's such an incredibly boring conversation to have.

It happened when the warlords were introduced and it's clear he won't fight them all. It happened when the supernovas were introduced and it's clear he won't fight them all (who saw the alliance with Law coming?). And now it's happening with the Emperors and their crews and every character with a DF, as if all that matters is who gets a fight in the arc

 

[AntraxSuicide]

You can't look and say luffy , Sanji etc etc take this amount of damage so can robin , Brook , etc etc
Same for any other characters when it comes to fights .
Her limbs taking damage getting effect by DF is a huge disadvantage to her .
Since that is what she use to both attack and defend with .

Usopp is blatantly not on that level either and does fine with damage.

 

[Zolo]

Multiple scenes and statements in the manga from the boys and girls' different reactions to Franky's robot scenes to the occasional statement like the seamstress makes to all the different female characters that are based around a feminine gimmick whether it's about marriage, clothes hanging, or some other thing points to Oda having generally outdated beliefs on how women are different from men and reinforcing stereotypes. If I were to say Oda is sexist, I don't mean it in a way that's going 'He hates women!'. I mean it in a 'He doesn't treat and view men and women equally.'

 

[NSESN]

I would say Usopp is in worse position than Robin, because she is smarter and has a Devil Fruit

 

[Ganzlinger]

With respect, I disagree. I never thing we should make assumptions about the author based on their fiction, however obvious it seems and maybe even probably is. I think it's best to focus the attack on the work itself, not the person producing it specifically because of what they are: A person, whereas a work of fiction is an object. When you attack a person, it's...well, personal. It's just a good rule of thumb that mostly works for me. And still....regardless of what Oda says in his fiction, or even in his interviews, none se of us really know him personally. I don't feel comfortable calling someone anything on those grounds.

I agree with you to some extent. Almost every author wants to pass a message to the audience with his work. I can tell what Oda wants from my own interpretation. If he truly believes on that, I can't tell because, like you said, we don't know him personally. However, I can criticize the message he is (unintentionally or intentionally) passing. That's what I meant.

I really hope that this is a joke post , sometimes it's hard to tell.

It was not.

What are you talking about? Why do you think ONLY Sanji holds those views and other characters call him out on how stupid it is? Why do you think Oda intentionally put him in a fight where his chivalry almost got him killed with the Khalifa fight? Why do you think this arc had a character specifically asking him about his chivalry? You're just projecting your own disappointment and thoughts on it

It's not only Sanji, it's also Zeff and Zoro also didn't want to kill Monet. It was just an example, because of the theme and the bashing he receives, that will certainly be shared with Zeff after last chapter.

When questioned on the SBS about, Oda said:

"When I drew Sanji vs Kalifa (Chapter 403), some people lauded Sanji's stance, and some people felt sorry for him. The truth is, I didn't really want to write those lines. Sanji doesn't have a "policy" of not kicking women; the truth is that he actually CAN'T kick them. He is a very proud man. I think he was really frustrated at that. I think Nami recognized that, and chose to praise him for once. It's a scene that I hope will resonate with male readers, but everyone's free to take it as they wish. Also, Zeff is just a man among men."

Oda used Nami to praise Sanji, said he is sweet to women, and Oda said it was a scene that he would hope to resonate with male readers. Obviously it shouldn't be take to extreme lengths (that's why the characters call Sanji an idiot not because he treats women differently), but it's clear that Oda wants to pass a message that hurting a women is something a man shouldn't do, it's something addressed to the male audience, so it is sexist. Dying for it is stupid, but it's clear that Oda is trying to pass an old fashioned lesson through Zeff. You may argue that it doesn't mean Oda agrees with it, okay, but the context when we have assholes like Niji beating a women and the good guys telling that you shouldn't do it, it's very clear that he is passing a message of what is right and what is wrong. That's why I believe it's a waste of time to hate a specific character if the author wants or doesn't bother to pass a sexist message as something good (and the kishido is just one part of it, like you people said, there is a lot of double standards with women in the series).

You didn't get me, so restrain yourself of projecting your wrong conclusions on me.

 

[Zolo]

To be honest, I find Zoro's story relating to the issue a lot better since his actual backstory had to deal with sexism. I also find it's where Oda's probably trying to figure out where to reconcile his feelings on the issue as well.

Despite what criticisms I've given, Oda's very clear that he believes both genders should follow their dreams no matter what (which is still better to me than Naruto where all the main female characters seemed to have their character revolving around a guy or so....maybe I'm mainly thinking of Sakura) and that it was awful for people to tell Kuina she couldn't be the best swordsman because she's a woman. That said, according to Sanji's story, Zoro wouldn't have even been able to fight seriously with her in the future because it would include hurting her.

I'm still not sure what he was trying to say with the whole Zoro/Tashigi/Monet confrontation other than Zoro going 'Oh. Well, I'll fight women if I have to.' Like I said, it feels like he's trying to figure out how he feels on the subject of someone like Zoro and Kuina being able to fight as equals while also having Sanji's own message as well.

 

[Neoriceisgood]

This is why talking about OP here is somewhat frustrating for me. Yes, it's a shonen, but it's primarily an adventure manga. Way more effort goes into the worldbuilding and characters. Yet everytime we see new potential antagonists the discussion always devolves into "Fights? Matchups? Is Luffy strong enough to take on x Emperor?" and it's such an incredibly boring conversation to have.

It happened when the warlords were introduced and it's clear he won't fight them all. It happened when the supernovas were introduced and it's clear he won't fight them all (who saw the alliance with Law coming?). And now it's happening with the Emperors and their crews and every character with a DF, as if all that matters is who gets a fight in the arc

I much prefer the adventure parts of OP over the fighting and match up predictions, but you're not trying to argue fights aren't important in OP at all, are you?

I just think it's weird that in a story where one of the only guarantees we have for literally every story arc (except gaimon?) is a couple of fighting match ups, Robin's basically only had one.

It stands out.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

To be honest, I find Zoro's story relating to the issue a lot better since his actual backstory had to deal with sexism. I also find it's where Oda's probably trying to figure out where to reconcile his feelings on the issue as well.

Despite what criticisms I've given, Oda's very clear that he believes both genders should follow their dreams no matter what (which is still better to me than Naruto where all the main female characters seemed to have their character revolving around a guy or so....maybe I'm mainly thinking of Sakura) and that it was awful for people to tell Kuina she couldn't be the best swordsman because she's a woman. That said, according to Sanji's story, Zoro wouldn't have even been able to fight seriously with her in the future because it would include hurting her.

I'm still not sure what he was trying to say with the whole Zoro/Tashigi/Monet confrontation other than Zoro going 'Oh. Well, I'll fight women if I have to.' Like I said, it feels like he's trying to figure out how he feels on the subject of someone like Zoro and Kuina being able to fight as equals while also having Sanji's own message as well.

I think the message is rather clear .
Zoro don't like to cut certain things ( women , children ,who knows what else) but he will if he has do .
As for him talking down to them that was nothing new since they were weaker than him .

If we look at monster trio they each have there own values.
Sanji - won't hit women .
Zoro - don't like to but would .
Luffy - don't give a fuck who it is lol.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

Rebecca is trash tier. Can't think of a worse OP character.

Also yes, Oda is a sexist.

 

[AntraxSuicide]

Rebecca is trash tier. Can't think of a worse OP character.

Also yes, Oda is a sexist.

People only deny this because they have silly notions of prejudice. Just because Oda isn't stating "Women suck, amirite?" doesn't mean he isn't being sexist.

It's pretty obvious that we'll probably never have a cool fight with a woman involved. That's an issue.

 

[Omnistalgic]

What is going on here? Are we offended Oda doesn't draw a lot of fights with zoro beating the crap out of a woman or something with no comments of their gender? What was wrong with his line? We know they're powerful women in OP world, is Oda sexist because they are more rare? Isn't that a reflection of real life? Luffy happens to be the tool Oda likes for the best fights, is a robin and especially nami fight all that interesting based on their abilities? I dunno..

Man...i feel like the push for equality in all parts is really turning into a an unbalanced view on the opposite side.

Many women are physically weaker than men. So what? that's ok for them to be better at Nurture careers than construction, and yet It's almost like that's taboo to mention today. We have different physical makeups, why can't that just be ok and the end of it.

What in the world is wrong with Sanji not wanting to hit women? like it's almost sexist to view women as "women". We have to treat them like men now to be politically correct or something?

Lol...well IRL I certainly don't want my wife to talk to me like she does with her girlfriends or sisters, it's perfectly fine IMO to treat a person appropriate to their gender.

 

[SolVanderlyn]

What is going on here? Are we offended Oda doesn't draw a lot of fights with zoro beating the crap out of a woman or something with no comments of their gender? What was wrong with his line? We know they're powerful women in OP world, is Oda sexist because they are more rare? Isn't that a reflection of real life? Luffy happens to be the tool Oda likes for the best fights, is a robin and especially nami fight all that interesting based on their abilities? I dunno..

Man...i feel like the push for equality in all parts is really turning into a an unbalanced view on the opposite side.

Many women are physically weaker than men. So what? that's ok for them to be better at Nurture careers than construction, and yet It's almost like that's taboo to mention today. We have different physical makeups, why can't that just be ok and the end of it.

What in the world is wrong with Sanji not wanting to hit women? like it's almost sexist to view women as "women". We have to treat them like men now to be politically correct or something?

Lol...well IRL I certainly don't want my wife to talk to me like she does with her girlfriends or sisters, it's perfectly fine IMO to treat a person appropriate to their gender.

It basically stems from this: People are afraid of prejudice and people being socially "locked" to certain roles. I think what you've said is 100% true, but I also understand the other side. There are plenty of women who don't want to be in a nurture role, and plenty of men who want to lock them there. Heck, look at Kuina's story in OP - it's all about this, lol. But, like you said, it's fine if that's what they're good at. This is getting pretty tangential.

I don't think that OP is a stellar example of the feminist agenda, and it definitely has problems. It's also a manga aimed primarily towards young boys, so having a lot of "cool males" should be expected. Do I wish there were more cool women? Yeah, of course I do, I love strong female characters, both figuratively and literally, especially if they look cool (read: cool doesn't mean sex appeal). Titania from Fire Emblem is my favorite video game character of all time. OP could do better. But it could also do a lot worse. Which is basically what everyone has been saying, so I'm just being a parrot at this point.

/ramble

Shirahoshi and Rebecca both rubbed me the wrong way. They were annoying and had zero agency in the story. Rebecca had some cool scenes with her Rurouni Kenshin-esque no-kill swordsmanship, but I'd have liked to have seen that further explored. Instead she just yelled at people and cried a lot. I can see why people took issue with that as her role as a female character. But honestly she was just 90% bad character all around, female or not (not disregarding the issues people have, just saying).

 

[Lunar15]

What's weird to me is that I feel like the series didn't immediately start out this way. There might have been small things but it never really felt like it hit a peak until Thriller Bark.

Anyway, Oda's mindset is that of an american writer in 1950. The men are hardboiled and women are plot objects. It's really weird and really bad.

 

[SolVanderlyn]

What's weird to me is that I feel like the series didn't immediately start out this way. There might have been small things but it never really felt like it hit a peak until Thriller Bark.

Anyway, Oda's mindset is that of an american writer in 1950. The men are hardboiled and women are plot objects. It's really weird and really bad.

I feel this way about Fairy Tail x10000000. I think it's a problem with the shonen industry in Japan in general. Changing demographics and expectations (for the worse, IMO).

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

What is the demographic of One Piece fans who grew up with One Piece?

I've been reading One Piece since I was 17. I'm now 30. Does Oda not abide for his aging audience or does he just constantly have to adjust for the same audience? I know his target demographic are teenage boys aged 13-16, but does Oda consider his fans who have aged into adulthood?

 

[Omnistalgic]

It basically stems from this: People are afraid of prejudice and people being socially "locked" to certain roles. I think what you've said is 100% true, but I also understand the other side. There are plenty of women who don't want to be in a nurture role, and plenty of men who want to lock them there. Heck, look at Kuina's story in OP - it's all about this, lol. But, like you said, it's fine if that's what they're good at. This is getting pretty tangential.

I don't think that OP is a stellar example of the feminist agenda, and it definitely has problems. It's also a manga aimed primarily towards young boys, so having a lot of "cool males" should be expected. Do I wish there were more cool women? Yeah, of course I do, I love strong female characters, both figuratively and literally, especially if they look cool (read: cool doesn't mean sex appeal). Titania from Fire Emblem is my favorite video game character of all time. OP could do better. But it could also do a lot worse. Which is basically what everyone has been saying, so I'm just being a parrot at this point.

/ramble

Shirahoshi and Rebecca both rubbed me the wrong way. They were annoying and had zero agency in the story. Rebecca had some cool scenes with her Rurouni Kenshin-esque no-kill swordsmanship, but I'd have liked to have seen that further explored. Instead she just yelled at people and cried a lot. I can see why people took issue with that as her role as a female character. But honestly she was just 90% bad character all around, female or not (not disregarding the issues people have, just saying).

well fair enough. You make some good points, some of the stuff seems like nitpicking but overall I can agree there could be stronger female characters in OP and manga in general.

My caution is to just not go the complete opposite direction lol. Like it's ok to hold the door open for women and not be as vulgar around them as you would a bunch of guys, lol. We don't need throw everything "old fashioned" in the toilet.

But yeah it's sad that people are still looked at in a box. Sure a ton of women are likely more natural at certain roles, but it doesn't define the gender. some of the best architects are women, just like some of the best cooks are men roles generally assumed to belong to certain roles. My wife is Arabic, and I'm black, i do all the cooking at home, and she makes a bit more $$ than me...

who really cares man...

Lol...I've never particularly looked at race/gender/culture so intently, but yeah it's sad we still haven't progressed much.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

It basically stems from this: People are afraid of prejudice and people being socially "locked" to certain roles. I think what you've said is 100% true, but I also understand the other side. There are plenty of women who don't want to be in a nurture role, and plenty of men who want to lock them there. Heck, look at Kuina's story in OP - it's all about this, lol. But, like you said, it's fine if that's what they're good at. This is getting pretty tangential.

Kuina story was not about her getting lock into any role .
It was about fact that she could never be the best cause men are just physical better .
Zoro did not want her to use that as a excuse if he beat her in the future .
He wanted her to keep on trying with her head held high .

 

[SolVanderlyn]

Pretty sure it's primarily aimed towards young teens/young adults (13-21 is my guess) with a secondary focus on long term readers. It's why so many long running series do time skips, I think. Sort of like a soft reboot to bring in new readers.

/armchairanalysis