Support NeoGAF

[Veelk]

We're talking about a story with a flashback with not one single fight about an island with a rift of poor and rich. But somehow conflict is only resolved through fighting and that's all One Piece is about?

Again, I have to clarify, I say "primary", not "only".

That said, I can atleast concede you bring up an interesting, if semantic and largely philosophical, point.

If, objectively speaking, a given story's content largely composes of one thing, but you remember and value the relatively less frequent other thing, what is it truly 'about'? Is what's in the story that's more defining, or what you value about it?

I don't see the notion that One Piece's narrative content is largely concerned with some kind of violence or another to be an arguable point. To speak to your examples, the resolution of the toys was a revolt, the gladiators centered around fighting, King Riku was deposed by Doflamingo because he used his powers to attack his citizens. Fighting permeates virtually every aspect of One Piece. That's what I mean when I say it is about fighting, which takes on a multitude of forms, and is still the most consistent conflict resolution it has.

If you want to say you value other aspects of it more, and therefore that's what One Piece is "about" to you, that's fair enough I suppose.

But regardless, the original point I was making is that the fighting was an important aspect of the series that women aren't allowed to fully involved with on the same level of male characters, and that lessens their agency. I say again, if you can agree that women not being able to fight on the same level is both true and a bad thing, then I really don't see what we disagree about.

How in the world have you managed to read the past 800 chapters?

Literary masochism.

Edit: in case you actually want a fuller answer, I like studying narrative. To that end, how much personal enjoyment I derive from a work of art is basically an afterthought. I also want to say that the female character issues may be something I press hard about in these debates, but that's only because people seem to reply to these most often. I have bigger complaints about One Piece that deal specifically with the narrative, but they aren't as hot topic issues I guess. For me, a much bigger problem is that nothing about One Piece's world feels real, so I have almost no empathy to anyone or anything happening. I am unable to care about anything in this story.

But if you can say one thing for One Piece, it's unique. I rarely like most of what it does, but it often does it in a unique way, and it's fun to find the few things I do like. It's not much, but it's enough for me to have read the series twice over. It's like a puzzle. The internal workings of a clock. A story has failed you when you have no emotional engagement in it, but it can still be worth while to investigate it on a cold, mechanical level. You might think that's unusual, but this is pretty typical for me. I watched over a hundred episodes from Arrow despite disliking it from the start and having a pathological hatred of it by episode 5. I read Naruto for years despite hating it. I do have my limits, but a series has to be reeeeeeeeeeeeeeally bad for me to actually drop it.

 

[RalchAC]

Again, I have to clarify, I say "primary", not "only".

That said, I can atleast concede you bring up an interesting, if semantic and largely philosophical, point.

If, objectively speaking, a given story's content largely composes of one thing, but you remember and value the relatively less frequent other thing, what is it truly 'about'? Is what's in the story that's more defining, or what you value about it?

I don't see the notion that One Piece's narrative content is largely concerned with some kind of violence or another to be an arguable point. To speak to your examples, the resolution of the toys was a revolt, the gladiators centered around fighting, King Riku was deposed by Doflamingo because he used his powers to attack his citizens. Fighting permeates virtually every aspect of One Piece. That's what I mean when I say it is about fighting, which takes on a multitude of forms, and is still the most consistent conflict resolution it has.

If you want to say you value other aspects of it more, and therefore that's what One Piece is "about" to you, that's fair enough I suppose.

But regardless, the original point I was making is that the fighting was an important aspect of the series that women aren't allowed to fully involved with on the same level of male characters, and that lessens their agency. I say again, if you can agree that women not being able to fight on the same level is both true and a bad thing, then I really don't see what we disagree about.

A few things I would have liked you to answer in my previous post (I didn't answer before because I thought you didn't want to keep up discussing. In any case:

- Do you feel the Devil Fruit issue in One Piece is similar to the cliche in fantasy stuff where women are most often Archers, Wizards or Clerics instead of Warriors or Knights?
- What male/female ratio would you like when it comes to fights in order to make it fare? Do you think a female Strawhat capable of fighting (or just Robin actually fighting powerful enemies would solve the issue?
- What do you actually think about Whitebeard's Army only having 1 Women Commander (Whitebay).

And some different questions:

- Do you think the (theorical) target audience of One Piece is an important reason why some of those issues you consider sexists are there?
- Do you think Boa and Baby 5, despite being strong and shown fighting phisically have less agency than no fights due to their "gags"? I mean Boa's crush and Baby 5 desire to help any man she finds. I've thought for a while that Boa is a satire to the whole waifu culture in Japan, since it's so forced and on the nose.

Literary masochism.

Edit: in case you actually want a fuller answer, I like studying narrative. To that end, how much personal enjoyment I derive from a work of art is basically an afterthought. I also want to say that the female character issues may be something I press hard about in these debates, but that's only because people seem to reply to these most often. I have bigger complaints about One Piece that deal specifically with the narrative, but they aren't as hot topic issues I guess. For me, a much bigger problem is that nothing about One Piece's world feels real, so I have almost no empathy to anyone or anything happening. I am unable to care about anything in this story.

But if you can say one thing for One Piece, it's unique. I rarely like most of what it does, but it often does it in a unique way, and it's fun to find the few things I do like. It's not much, but it's enough for me to have read the series twice over. It's like a puzzle. The internal workings of a clock. A story has failed you when you have no emotional engagement in it, but it can still be worth while to investigate it on a cold, mechanical level. You might think that's unusual, but this is pretty typical for me. I watched over a hundred episodes from Arrow despite disliking it from the start and having a pathological hatred of it by episode 5. I read Naruto for years despite hating it. I do have my limits, but a series has to be reeeeeeeeeeeeeeally bad for me to actually drop it.

Well, seems that your bigger problem with One Piece is your inhability to accept that's just how the world is. If you've studied literature, you'll know that suspension of disbelief is key in order to be inmersed in any world (for example, bringing SAO again, I've never been able to be fullly inmersed by it, due to the story breaking basic MMO conventions in order to make the character feel unique and look cool). One Piece is absurd, yeah, but it's been like this since Chapter 1 and it's never done (imo of course) something that made me think the world isn't believable.

Most people here would argue that the world feels real. It may have the craziest ruleset you may have seen, but due to establishing the fact that this world is a really weird place, nothing feels out of place.

I mean, look at the Going Merry. Is a ship with a soul that travels alone in the verge of death to save his crew from death. It would have sounded really, really weird if it wasn't for the fact that Oda has been teasing ships having a soul like 2-3 arcs before it happened. If there is something impressive in One Piece, is how crazy it can become without risking the coherence of its bizarre world.

But yeah, you are totally a masochist

 

[Veelk]

- Do you feel the Devil Fruit issue in One Piece is similar to the cliche in fantasy stuff where women are most often Archers, Wizards or Clerics instead of Warriors or Knights?

Yeah, pretty much. It doesn't matter the magic system, it often adapts to these tropes unless concentrated effort is made to avoid them.

- What male/female ratio would you like when it comes to fights in order to make it fare? Do you think a female Strawhat capable of fighting (or just Robin actually fighting powerful enemies would solve the issue?

I don't know what I'd be 'satisfied' with, but right now I'd just like there to be a higher number than there is now, which is pretty much few to none.

For me, I personally hold Gentlemen Bastard's by Scott Lynch to be the golden standard. The main viewpoint characters are all male, but he's successfully constructed his world in such a way that it feels like there is genuine no bigotry, despite it being one of the darkest world's I've seen in fantasy fiction.

And the reason I am as insistent on this topic as I am is that I genuinely think you guys don't know what your missing. Certain tropes and gender expectations are so set in your mind you don't even realize they're there until you see them displaced. He created a world where women just naturally work every facet of society, from doctoring, to woodcraft, to piracy, to mercenary work, to prison guard duty. Fantasies usually displace a few tropes, but this one does away with so many of them, and it elevates it in a way that is difficult to put into words.

Not all fantasies can be as gender unbiased as that, but One Piece is one that should be. It feels insane to me to have this world where small, scrawny Luffy can take out guys ten times his size, and swordsman can cut steel, and in general anything can happen....but women always have to be lesser in these things. If we're going to have this anything goes fantasy, it should be for everyone.

What do you actually think about Whitebeard's Army only having 1 Women Commander (Whitebay).

Other than the Amazon Lily Pirates, you take any given group, you'll generally only find 1 woman. One Supernova, one CP9, one Shichibukai, one Yonko. Take any given pirate crew at random, if they have a woman at all, they only have one, two, or 3 at best. In any given scenerio, the females are the extreme minority. Even Luffy's fleet, as of now, has no female commanders. Whitebeard having only one isn't an anomaly in any way.

- Do you think the (theorical) target audience of One Piece is an important reason why some of those issues you consider sexists are there?

I try not to guess at Oda's intentions. I consider it slightly presumptuous at best and pure speculation at worst. And anyway, I don't really care about the reason why it's there, because there isn't really a practical explanation that would satisfy me. Like, if that is supposed to be the explanation, that doesn't really matter to me because OP has reached a critical mass popularity that there's basically nothing that can make it unpopular, it's audience has far expanded past what the target was, and if anything it's more important to not plant culturally poisonous thoughts into the heads of teens than if it were for adults.

- Do you think Boa and Baby 5, despite being strong and shown fighting phisically have less agency than no fights due to their "gags"? I mean Boa's crush and Baby 5 desire to help any man she finds. I've thought for a while that Boa is a satire to the whole waifu culture in Japan, since it's so forced and on the nose.

The thing I'd like to see is a long, drawn out fight where characters are pushed to the limit. If you want an example of what I mean, then take any given fight that Luffy, Zoro, Sanji, or Usopp had, and just change the gender. These characters get hit, they get pushed down, they get back up, and they finish the fight. Boa, at best, fight against some mooks that couldn't touch her and Baby 5's fight was them not doing too much damage to each other until they decided to get married. I want to see a committed and fully realized fight. Again, I'm hoping Big Mom can give it.

Well, seems that your bigger problem with One Piece is your inhability to accept that's just how the world is. If you've studied literature, you'll know that suspension of disbelief is key in order to be inmersed in any world (for example, bringing SAO again, I've never been able to be fullly inmersed by it, due to the story breaking basic MMO conventions in order to make the character feel unique and look cool). One Piece is absurd, yeah, but it's been like this since Chapter 1 and it's never done (imo of course) something that made me think the world isn't believable.

Most people here would argue that the world feels real. It may have the craziest ruleset you may have seen, but due to establishing the fact that this world is a really weird place, nothing feels out of place.

I mean, look at the Going Merry. Is a ship with a soul that travels alone in the verge of death to save his crew from death. It would have sounded really, really weird if it wasn't for the fact that Oda has been teasing ships having a soul like 2-3 arcs before it happened. If there is something impressive in One Piece, is how crazy it can become without risking the coherence of its bizarre world.

But yeah, you are totally a masochist

Suspension of disbelief has to be earned and then repaid to keep good faith. It's not an infinite resource that the author can draw on indefinitely. I am a big fan of having some understanding of how stuff happens rather than it just happening. It doesn't matter to me that Going Merry having a soul was 'teased' for 2 arcs when I have no explanation of what that even means. Does Luffy's hat also have a souls since it's so treasured? If you cut off the Going Merry's mast, it is still fine or is like cutting off the head of a person? How does it handle the Ship of Theseus question? Is the MiniMerry now holding the soul of the Going Merry, or is it just wood? And if it is, then why was it a problem to replace that thing that was broken just because it'd 'feel' different?

And you might think that means I want all magic explained. No, I do like a nice slab of Wonder in my stories. I would be far more accepting of Merry's having a soul if I had other world explanations I could hold to, some kind of anchor or reference point to say "Well, that may be wierd, but atleast this makes sense". Because if I have a sense of how something works, then I have a sense of what characters can and cannot do, and it would then make their achievements feel worthwhile. It doesn't even have to be deep either. Just...something.

A good example is Sanji's fire leg. For so long, we all just assumed that was something that could randomly happen in OP. Now we have a possible explanation for it: It's a genetic ability made from the experiments judge did. We should have gotten that explanation way earlier, but no one ever even made a remark that Sanji randomly setting his leg on fire was even unusual, which it might not be since Luffy can do it too without any explanation backing it up. But how am I supposed to cheer for Sanji beating that wolf guy in Ennies Lobby when that attack in no way felt earned. It's just a "Here's a random ability pulled out of my ass" sort of thing that we had no way of even suspecting was possible.

One Piece can't risk it's coherence because it has none. Anything can happen, and if it breaks the rules, it's written off as a gag or whatever, and or else it just becomes a new rule even if there's no explanation for how it works. As a result, I can never get engaged in OP's fights. They have an equal chance of ending in complete bullshit as they do a rational explanation. So I can't feel any tension whatsoever in the character's struggles. So I can't care.

 

[RalchAC]

Suspension of disbelief has to be earned and then repaid to keep good faith. It's not an infinite resource that the author can draw on indefinitely. I am a big fan of having some understanding of how stuff happens rather than it just happening. It doesn't matter to me that Going Merry having a soul was 'teased' for 2 arcs when I have no explanation of what that even means. Does Luffy's hat also have a souls since it's so treasured? If you cut off the Going Merry's mast, it is still fine or is like cutting off the head of a person? How does it handle the Ship of Theseus question? Is the MiniMerry now holding the soul of the Going Merry, or is it just wood? And if it is, then why was it a problem to replace that thing that was broken just because it'd 'feel' different?

And you might think that means I want all magic explained. No, I do like a nice slab of Wonder in my stories. I would be far more accepting of Merry's having a soul if I had other world explanations I could hold to, some kind of anchor or reference point to say "Well, that may be wierd, but atleast this makes sense". Because if I have a sense of how something works, then I have a sense of what characters can and cannot do, and it would then make their achievements feel worthwhile. It doesn't even have to be deep either. Just...something.

A good example is Sanji's fire leg. For so long, we all just assumed that was something that could randomly happen in OP. Now we have a possible explanation for it: It's a genetic ability made from the experiments judge did. We should have gotten that explanation way earlier, but no one ever even made a remark that Sanji randomly setting his leg on fire was even unusual, which it might not be since Luffy can do it too without any explanation backing it up. But how am I supposed to cheer for Sanji beating that wolf guy in Ennies Lobby when that attack in no way felt earned. It's just a "Here's a random ability pulled out of my ass" sort of thing that we had no way of even suspecting was possible.

As a result, I can never get engaged in OP's fights. They have an equal chance of ending in complete bullshit as they do a rational explanation. So I can't feel any tension whatsoever in the character's struggles. So I can't care.

Thanks a lot for answering. With Baby 5, just a little reminder that he and Buffalo fought Franky Shogun too.

I feel part of the problem may be this little stigma that seems to be in most places (and one of the reasons in many media you don't see many female "grunts" to give them a name). It seems that you can cut, shoot or beat the shit out of any male character without an issue while doing the same to a female has to be impactful and show how bad somebody is. The problem with all those things is that you have to actively fight against it, because after so much time we are subconsciously used to them.

I don't really think that the example with the female cook vs Sanji face is a especially good one. Both faces are mostly shown, and Sanji is like that to give some comic relief to a scene that tries to be dramatic (that's a resource he likes to use a lot, for what I've seen). A better argument may be the fact that both women in the crew seem to fill the role of the strawman while most of the boys (Luffy, Ussopp, Brook and Sanji) are the dummies who get beaten every time they piss off Nami.

I can't say I agree with you in everything you say, but I think I've shown I agree with some of your points. I think you don't always give the best examples too. Not trying to be mean, but in most of the past posts I see people discussing the examples instead of looking at the bigger picture.

I'll write down the name of that book you've used as an example and hope I can read it soon. I have other stuff waiting in a shelf, and I don't plan to not try to read anything I've already bought!

 

[sasuke_91]

I feel part of the problem may be this little stigma that seems to be in most places (and one of the reasons in many media you don't see many female "grunts" to give them a name). It seems that you can cut, shoot or beat the shit out of any male character without an issue while doing the same to a female has to be impactful and show how bad somebody is. The problem with all those things is that you have to actively fight against it, because after so much time we are subconsciously used to them.

I think the only situation where a guy beat up a girl without this "stigma" is when Luffy beat up Vivi when he refused to let her sacrifice herself alone for the "greater good".
Such a great scene.

 

[Veelk]

I can't say I agree with you in everything you say, but I think I've shown I agree with some of your points. I think you don't always give the best examples too. Not trying to be mean, but in most of the past posts I see people discussing the examples instead of looking at the bigger picture.

That's fair enough. I sometimes find it difficult to get examples or make analogies. I usually write what I think based off memory, which can leave room for error, and it also means I focus on the 'bigger picture' so to speak. Still, I don't feel I should have to substantiate something so blatantly obvious as some of the remarks I make. In danger of risking a bad analogy, it's like having to cite a source on that humans can't breath underwater on research paper. Whats the point when everyone knows it.

I feel part of the problem may be this little stigma that seems to be in most places (and one of the reasons in many media you don't see many female "grunts" to give them a name). It seems that you can cut, shoot or beat the shit out of any male character without an issue while doing the same to a female has to be impactful and show how bad somebody is. The problem with all those things is that you have to actively fight against it, because after so much time we are subconsciously used to them.

That would be the Men are the Expendable Gender trope. OP even has an entry there.

I'll write down the name of that book you've used as an example and hope I can read it soon. I have other stuff waiting in a shelf, and I don't plan to not try to read anything I've already bought!

Gentlemen Bastard's is the name of the series. The first book is called "The Lies of Locke Lamora." It's generally considered the best book of the series, and the 4th book will be coming out soon. But if you want a small taste of the writer's style, he made this short story available online. It should take about half an hour to read the whole thing, if that.

A Thousand and One Days in Old Theradane

The only thing I should probably warn you about is that it has a lot of cussing, but once you get used to it, it's actually very well done cussing. One person here already tried it and liked it.

I know the feeling though. My backlog is simply ridiculous counting all the shows, movies, comics, books, any everything else I have on my list.

 

[Big One]

So after this chapter I'm really feeling like Pedro might end up REALLY being a Kaidou subordinate as people have been speculating. Oda has been kind of skewing it differently with Pedro being so chummy with the Strawhats, but if we really think about Pedro's situation, there HAS to be a reason why he was trying to steal Big Mom's poneglyphs.

I do not think he's entirely a bad guy however, but maybe Kaidou has some shit on him on such a level that he's pretty much forced to do his bidding. Maybe Kaidou threatened to kill Zunisha itself for example.

"Pedro" is also a name of a card game as well.

I'm really expecting the big twist in this arc will involve Pedro taking the Poneglyph copies for himself and bailing on the Strawhats and/or capturing the Strawhats and taking them to Wano to jail them.

 

[BatDan]

Why does Viz call the Rio Poneglyph the "Real Poneglyph"? Looking at the Japanese text, there's only one R sound and it's the beginning of the word.

 

[RomanceDawn]

Why does Viz call the Rio Poneglyph the "Real Poneglyph"? Looking at the Japanese text, there's only one R sound and it's the beginning of the word.

I think that was a 4kids thing that VIZ tried to keep consistent with the garbage English dub at the time. To keep consistency terms like that still pop every so often, like Mut Mut Fruit and Rogue Town.

I think.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

Okay early spoilers this week .
And this chapter seem awesome.

 

[Blackleg-sanji1]

Those spoilers are...whoa.

 

[MrSaturn99]

Why does Viz call the Rio Poneglyph the "Real Poneglyph"? Looking at the Japanese text, there's only one R sound and it's the beginning of the word.

Remember, they call them "Ponegliffs", so it's rendered even dumber.

Up there with "Teech" as the worst of the goofy name changes, although I don't remember if they were 4Kids stuff or not.

 

[Ray Down]

This weeks spoilers:

Spoiler

Chapter title is Luffy and Big Mom.

Chopper and Carrot get captured by Brulee in Mirror world. Carrot is about to be thrown into a boiling furnace.
Chopper (Heavy Point) is tied up, but this situation is what he had planned. He can be free if he transforms and he can even use Monster Point.

In the library in Whole Cake Castle, Big Mom shows a book to Vinsmokes.
Many rare living creatures all over the world are confined in the book due to Mondour's ability.
Judge points out that he has not seen Giants in Totland.
Big Mom shows hatred toward the word "Giants".
Big Mom's subordinate reports that they have bring Luffy and Nami.

Luffy and Nami are confined in the prison in the book. They start talking with Big Mom via Den Den Mushi.

Big Mom tells Luffy that she will open the legendary treasure box from Fishman Island (probably that bomb...) in Tea Party tomorrow.

Big Mom gets enraged to hear from Nami that Lola was fine since Lola had escaped from the largest political marriage.
Big Mom says that she would have defeated Kaidou, Shanks and Whitebeard and become Pirate King if Lola had accepted the wedding.

Luffy says,

"What a dumb story, Big Mom.
It was Lola who decided not to get married. It is you who haven't become Pirate King yet!
I'll pick a fight with you again! Just because you are Yonkou, don't act like you are great!
I'll bring back Sanji! It is us who will win in the end!!"

Big Mom is pissed off.

Pedoro's plan starts.

Brook "Now let's begin a special live concert in Yonkou Big Mom's castle!

 

[Veelk]

Spoiler

Can someone explain the translation there? Big mom says she would have won if not for her meddling kid, and he calls her dumb because it's Lola that decided not to go through with it and didn't become PK? Yes, that's literally what she just said. What is luffy supposed to be refuting since she admitted that things didn't go her way?

 

[Dugna]

Spoiler

Can someone explain the translation there? Big mom says she would have won if not for her meddling kid, and he calls her dumb because it's Lola that decided not to go through with it and didn't become PK? Yes, that's literally what she just said. What is luffy supposed to be refuting since she admitted that things didn't go her way?

Spoiler

Basically saying not to blame others for her not being PK yet even though she has tons of power, basically calling her useless when it comes down to the end.

Its a usual thing said.

 

[dabig2]

Spoiler

Can someone explain the translation there? Big mom says she would have won if not for her meddling kid, and he calls her dumb because it's Lola that decided not to go through with it and didn't become PK? Yes, that's literally what she just said. What is luffy supposed to be refuting since she admitted that things didn't go her way?

Spoiler

Until we get better translation I think it goes like this: Luffy is calling her out for relying on political marriages being forced on her children. The reason she's not pirate queen isn't because of Lola's escape and a missed marriage opportunity, it's because Big Mom isn't shit and that she should stop blaming others for her failure or missed opportunities.

fake edit: beaten above.

 

[IHaveIce]

Mhmmm

Spoiler

so who was supposed to marry Lola?

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

Literary masochism.

Edit: in case you actually want a fuller answer, I like studying narrative. To that end, how much personal enjoyment I derive from a work of art is basically an afterthought. I also want to say that the female character issues may be something I press hard about in these debates, but that's only because people seem to reply to these most often. I have bigger complaints about One Piece that deal specifically with the narrative, but they aren't as hot topic issues I guess. For me, a much bigger problem is that nothing about One Piece's world feels real, so I have almost no empathy to anyone or anything happening. I am unable to care about anything in this story.

But if you can say one thing for One Piece, it's unique. I rarely like most of what it does, but it often does it in a unique way, and it's fun to find the few things I do like. It's not much, but it's enough for me to have read the series twice over. It's like a puzzle. The internal workings of a clock. A story has failed you when you have no emotional engagement in it, but it can still be worth while to investigate it on a cold, mechanical level. You might think that's unusual, but this is pretty typical for me. I watched over a hundred episodes from Arrow despite disliking it from the start and having a pathological hatred of it by episode 5. I read Naruto for years despite hating it. I do have my limits, but a series has to be reeeeeeeeeeeeeeally bad for me to actually drop it.

Sorry but I don't understand this mindset. You clearly don't like One Piece. I don't understand why you'd continue to write so many words for something you clearly don't like week in, week out. You're clearly passionate about how so many things in One Piece don't work for you, and I"m not saying that criticism shouldn't exist, but it doesn't make sense to me to keep going at something you don't like. I'm very vocal about things I don't like and even I have a breaking point where I just don't engage it anymore. I say my piece and leave it at that. I thought Arrow started sucking during season 3 and haven't watched since. But you've watched more than me even though I really liked the show from seasons 1 and 2 and have hated it since ep 5. That doesn't make sense to me. It feels like such a colossal waste of time and energy.

 

[Veelk]

Sorry but I don't understand this mindset. You clearly don't like One Piece. I don't understand why you'd continue to write so many words for something you clearly don't like week in, week out. You're clearly passionate about how so many things in One Piece don't work for you, and I"m not saying that criticism shouldn't exist, but it doesn't make sense to me to keep going at something you don't like. I'm very vocal about things I don't like and even I have a breaking point where I just don't engage it anymore. I say my piece and leave it at that. I thought Arrow started sucking during season 3 and haven't watched since. But you've watched more than me even though I really liked the show from seasons 1 and 2 and have hated it since ep 5. That doesn't make sense to me. It feels like such a colossal waste of time and energy.

You aren't the first to be confused by my tendencies. I've written about arrow and batman v superman in similar ways to how I talk about one piece. I've also written a lot stuff I love. I've written a lot in general.

Someone at one point summed it up as "Veelk likes to talk." I enjoy analyzing stories and listening to others responses and interpretations and trying to figure out if I agree or can see something the way they see it. To that end, how much I like something is just not as important it is for most people. Also, I do not like leaving things unfinished, so I'm often compelled to see something through to the end regardless of how I feel about it. I could be watching the worst movie in the world, there's little chance I won't see it to the end. And it's probably why discussions with me tend to last forever.

But you are right, one can only go so far. I have my breaking points too. Arrow surpassed them eventually. Wheel of Time did as well. One piece simply hasn't reached that threshold and has, if anything, moved away from it since the time skip. There is stuff I like about one piece, it just comes in small and infrequent portions for me. One piece has failed me as a story in most ways that matter, but it's still doing unique and interesting thing that pique my curiosity. That's all I really need to keep going.

 

[Gintamen]

A good example is Sanji's fire leg. For so long, we all just assumed that was something that could randomly happen in OP. Now we have a possible explanation for it: It's a genetic ability made from the experiments judge did. We should have gotten that explanation way earlier, but no one ever even made a remark that Sanji randomly setting his leg on fire was even unusual, which it might not be since Luffy can do it too without any explanation backing it up. But how am I supposed to cheer for Sanji beating that wolf guy in Ennies Lobby when that attack in no way felt earned. It's just a "Here's a random ability pulled out of my ass" sort of thing that we had no way of even suspecting was possible.

The explanation is and always was that he's moving his leg fast enough to let it burn. This arc explicitly says that he couldn't have gotten his power through genetics, in Punk Hazzard it was established that his exoskeleton was that of normal human too.

 

[Veelk]

The explanation is and always was that he's moving his leg fast enough to let it burn. This arc explicitly says that he couldn't have gotten his power through genetics, in Punk Hazzard it was established that his exoskeleton was that of normal human too.

Other than that explanation never really making sense to me beyond one piece physics, it doesn't work since there were several instances where he wasn't moving in a fast way to light it up.

Leaving it as just friction raises way more questions than the explanation answers. Like I said, it's not merely that I want an explanation, but a good explanation that lets me understand the fictional world better.

 

[BatDan]

Here's an image showing all the issues of Jump One Piece appeared in

It's like the Hiatus x Hiatus chart, with waaaaaay less red.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

Apparently my ip is blocked from viewing 4chan lol. I've not been to 4chan in years and I haven't posted anything since 2004, what.

Please post the image without a 4chan link.

 

[Ray Down]

Apparently my ip is blocked from viewing 4chan lol. I've not been to 4chan in years and I haven't posted anything since 2004, what.

Please post the image without a 4chan link.

.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

Apparently my ip is blocked from viewing 4chan lol. I've not been to 4chan in years and I haven't posted anything since 2004, what.

Please post the image without a 4chan link.

same.

 

[Principate]

Mhmmm

Spoiler

so who was supposed to marry Lola?

Spoiler

Bruh it was clearly the leader of the Elbalf. A giant army which Big Mom wants but somehow simultaneously hates Giants. WG has also wanted a giant army for generations too. It all fits!

Other than that explanation never really making sense to me beyond one piece physics, it doesn't work since there were several instances where he wasn't moving in a fast way to light it up.

Leaving it as just friction raises way more questions than the explanation answers. Like I said, it's not merely that I want an explanation, but a good explanation that lets me understand the fictional world better.

If this is what stumps you why do you bother reading shounens at all? Scratch that why do you even bother with the action genre.

 

[ckohler]

same.

It's not you. Thier CDN is blocking NeoGAF as a referrer. Just copy the link URL and paist it into your browser's address bar.

 

[Rebel Leader]

Spoiler

awwww shits about to go down

 

[Rebel Leader]

It's not you. Thier CDN is blocking NeoGAF as a referrer. Just copy the link URL and paist it into your browser's address bar.

Why? That's just rude to keep tea party guests away

 

[TheFlow]

Commander smoothie looks strong as fuck. like damn. also love her character design.

I am glad the 2 years of training was actually realistic power jump wise. Luffy is nowhere near emperor strength.

 

[Blackleg-sanji1]

You know what in order to not get myself banned I'm out I just can't worst manga thread on this forum period and naruto thread exists y'all have fun.

 

[Veelk]

If this is what stumps you why do you bother reading shounens at all? Scratch that why do you even bother with the action genre.

Most Shonen aren't this nonsensical. Very few offer an explanation as incoherent that Sanji can do what he does because of "friction".

 

[TheGreatDirector]

Most Shonen aren't this nonsensical. Very few offer an explanation as incoherent that Sanji can do what he does because of "friction".

There was some speculation that he might have latent elemental powers like his brothers seem to have.

 

[Principate]

Most Shonen aren't this nonsensical. Very few offer an explanation as incoherent that Sanji can do what he does because of "friction".

Most shounens are far more nonsensical. What on earth are you even on. How many shounen have you even read. Naruto has hundreds of power/abilty contradictions and poorly explained abilties bleach as aswell, Dragon ball has numerous as well, HxH has a litteral tangible deus ex machina ability with no consequences, let's not even talk about fairy tail, Kuroko, and harem trash number 135743.

Seriously dude the fuck. Really the fuck. I am astounded. For someone the supposedly likes to disect literature and reading shounen you've sure done done a great job of missing/ignoring great swathes of it

 

[Veelk]

There was some speculation that he might have latent elemental powers like his brothers seem to have.

Well, yeah, that's what I've been saying. That's a preferable explanation since it teaches me a new element of the world exists and that Sanji's ability is indeed unusual. Not that it makes much difference at this junction, but it's far more convincing than what we've had the past several years.

Most shounens are far more nonsensical. What on earth are you even on. How many shounen have you read. Naruto has hundreds of power/abilty contradictions and poorly explained abilties bleach as aswell, Dragon ball has numerous as well, HxH has a litteral tangible deus ex machina ability with no consequences, let's not even talk about fairy tail, Kuroko, and harem trash number 135743.

Stuff like HxH has its own issues, but it's powers are often attributed to Nen. Nen being an unusual force in the world that allows things to happen that otherwise wouldn't is a more convincing explanation than taking a mechanism of the world we already live in and understand and using it to do something you can't actually do with that mechanism.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

Most Shonen aren't this nonsensical. Very few offer an explanation as incoherent that Sanji can do what he does because of "friction".

You don't read much shonen .
Plus most of the time a in depth explanation just make things worst.

Stuff like HxH has its own issues, but it's powers are often attributed to Nen. Nen being an unusual force in the world that allows things to happen that otherwise wouldn't is a more convincing explanation than taking a mechanism of the world we already live in and understand and using it to do something you can't actually do with that mechanism.

The OP world is it's own world and Oda can do what he want with real world stuff .
No matter how exaggerate they end up being .

 

[Veelk]

You don't read much battle shonen .
Plus most of the time a in depth explanation just make things worst.

Is this really where we're going now? We finished arguing against the idea that one piece isn't centered around violence, now we're going to say one piece isn't a manga sillier than most other manga when that's something it's known for and central to its identity?

I'm not even saying that other manga don't have their own problems. But friction doesn't do what it depicts sanji doing. Trying to use it as an explanation vs the random magical power is inherently less convincing.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

Is this really where we're going now? We finished arguing against the idea that one piece isn't centered around violence, now we're going to say one piece isn't a manga sillier than most other manga when that's something it's known for and central to its identity?

I'm not even saying that other manga don't have their own problems. But friction doesn't do what it depicts sanji doing. Trying to use it as an explanation vs the random magical power is inherently less convincing.

As i said in my edit OP is it's own world and Oda can make friction do what ever he wants .
The same way how certain characters stronger or crazy looking etc etc .

 

[Principate]

Is this really where we're going now? We finished arguing against the idea that one piece isn't centered around violence, now we're going to say one piece isn't a manga sillier than most other manga when that's something it's known for and central to its identity?

I'm not even saying that other manga don't have their own problems. But friction doesn't do what it depicts sanji doing. Trying to use it as an explanation vs the random magical power is inherently less convincing.

You made the claim most manga aren't that illogical, anyone with any familiarity with the genre will takes that's false. Sanji's friction thing is fucking nothing. The only reason it exists is because Oda can't be bothered showing him spin every time he does it (Because he uses that move a lot), same reason why Luffy can instantly transform into gear 2/4.


These are scrub level inconsistencies, the type that plague the avrage battle shounen are far more mindnumbing.

 

[Veelk]

As i said in my edit OP is it's own world and Oda can make friction do what ever he wants .
The same way how certain characters stronger or crazy looking etc etc .

Well, then we still run into the same problem that began this discussion. I don't understand what oda's 'friction' entails, so I don't understand his world. Not only that, if his friction doesn't match what I understand friction to mean, then what elements of his world am I supposed to understand?

I'm left with more questions than answers and a greater disconnect from his world.

You made the claim most manga aren't that illogical, anyone with any familiarity with the genre will takes that's false, sanji'a friction thing is fucking nothing.

Well, I don't know about you, but I disagree. For the record, I've read Naruto, Bleach, HxH, MHA, FMA if that counts, Kenshin, YYH, a few lesser popular ones like Mx0 and so on. So a good bit of all the major ones. Most of them don't offer an explanation as ridiculous as 'friction' to justify Sanji setting his leg on fire as an attack. Usually, they stick to trying to justify their ridiculous stuff with magic forces. I'm not saying these other manga don't have their own nonsense, but it's rarely as extreme or as pervasive as One Piece usually is.

 

[bjork]

Guys, why doesn't this hot pocket have the same culinary qualities as a five-star meal?

Come on dude

 

[Principate]

Guys, why doesn't this hot pocket have the same culinary qualities as a five-star meal?

Come on dude

I know righy, Oda puts out chaptees near weekly for almost 20 freaking years. It's a miracle One Piece is as consistent as it is.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

Well, then we still run into the same problem that began this discussion. I don't understand what oda's 'friction' entails, so I don't understand his world. Not only that, if his friction doesn't match what I understand friction to mean, then what elements of his world am I supposed to understand?

I'm left with more questions than answers and a greater disconnect from his world.

Most people don't care .
They don't need a in depth explanation for stuff like that .
Just like people don't care that characters clothes don't get mess up by DF or other powers.

 

[Veelk]

Guys, why doesn't this hot pocket have the same culinary qualities as a five-star meal?

Come on dude

I'm comparing it to other shonen. I'm currently reading MHA and while there is stuff you can break about it if you apply enough scrutiny, nothing as blatantly ridiculous as Sanji's explanation has happened yet, since anything impossible done in that world is usually explained it's magic force aka quirks.

Most people don't care .
They don't need a in depth explanation for stuff like that .
Just like people don't care that characters clothes don't get mess up by DF or other powers.

Good for them. I'm not responsible for writing about their experiences with OP, just my own.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

Well, I don't know about you, but I disagree. For the record, I've read Naruto, Bleach, HxH, MHA, FMA if that counts, Kenshin, YYH, a few lesser popular ones like Mx0 and so on. So a good bit of all the major ones. Most of them don't offer an explanation as ridiculous as 'friction' to justify Sanji setting his leg on fire as an attack. Usually, they stick to trying to justify their ridiculous stuff with magic forces. I'm not saying these other manga don't have their own nonsense, but it's rarely as extreme or as pervasive as One Piece usually is.

I find there explanation even more ridiculous as it is not even constant with power\magic in there own world .
That they spend so much time on just to say fuck it or come up with some BS\ deus ex machina power.

IGood for them. I'm not responsible for writing about their experiences with OP, just my own.

That is no problem just know that Oda don't have to care since most people don't .
And that sort stuff not going to change .

 

[Principate]

I'm comparing it to other shonen. I'm currently reading MHA and while there is stuff you can break about it if you apply enough scrutiny, nothing as blatantly ridiculous as Sanji's explanation has happened yet, since anything impossible done in that world is usually explained it's magic force aka quirks.

I've already made an explanation for it Oda simply doesn't draw him spining it's not a rare thing shounen manga. I stopped reading BnH around villain arc but I assure you if the manga manages to last a decade you'll start seeing those sorts of inconsistencies. Consistency is much easier to manage when a manage is fairly new.

 

[Principate]

Well, then we still run into the same problem that began this discussion. I don't understand what oda's 'friction' entails, so I don't understand his world. Not only that, if his friction doesn't match what I understand friction to mean, then what elements of his world am I supposed to understand?

I'm left with more questions than answers and a greater disconnect from his world.


Well, I don't know about you, but I disagree. For the record, I've read Naruto, Bleach, HxH, MHA, FMA if that counts, Kenshin, YYH, a few lesser popular ones like Mx0 and so on. So a good bit of all the major ones. Most of them don't offer an explanation as ridiculous as 'friction' to justify Sanji setting his leg on fire as an attack. Usually, they stick to trying to justify their ridiculous stuff with magic forces. I'm not saying these other manga don't have their own nonsense, but it's rarely as extreme or as pervasive as One Piece usually is.

I find some of this very difficult to believe unless you were skim reading. You cannot tell me with a straight face the last arc of Bleach is more logical than sanji's friction. Because I'd call you ball faced liar and question your critical reading capabilities.

As in seriously question because the only way someone would come to that conclusion was if they didn't read it.

 

[Veelk]

I've already made an explanation for it Oda simply doesn't draw him spining it's not a rare thing shounen manga. I stopped reading BnH around villain arc but I assure you if the manga manages to last a decade you'll start seeing those sorts of inconsistencies. Consistency is much easier to manage when a manage is fairly new.

But Sanji's explanation isn't inconsistent with anything that happens in the manga, it's inconsistent with the concept of friction as people know it itself. It doesn't really require any amount of time, it's incoherent from it's inception because friction doesn't work that way beyond the fact that it generates heat.

I find some of this very difficult to believe unless you were skim reading. You cannot tell me with a straight face the last arc of Bleach is more logical than sanji's friction. Because I'd call you ball faced liar and question your critical reading capabilities.

I haven't read Bleach's last arc, but you're confusing narrative logic with just plain understanding of things work.

Something like, say, Ichigo running around at speeds that are faster than the human body can go aren't unrealistic or illogical in the traditional sense because they are powered by a magic system that is specifically designed to let characters do impossible things. Sanji's explanation doesn't make sense because it's not magical in nature or anything like that, it's just impossible with what people understand friction, a real life phenomenon, to be.

 

[Principate]

But Sanji's explanation isn't inconsistent with anything that happens in the manga, it's inconsistent with the concept of friction as people know it itself. It doesn't really require any amount of time, it's incoherent from it's inception because friction doesn't work that way beyond the fact that it generates heat.

Sanji spins at supersonic speeds concentrated on his legs. This generates heat. That's it, that's all there is to it.

The fact his body isn't damaged by it is strange but I guess he's used to ut much like Luffy's body is use to travelling at supersonic speeds. I'm an mechanic engineering done a masters in it. I deal with friction and stress forces daily. It's not that hard to understabd the simplified conxeot of it.

 

[sasuke_91]

A hidden talent for controlling elemental powers is an explanation for Sanji's bursting into flames that I actually like, so I'll take that as fact even if it's not true.
What I never understood is Zoro's 3-head Ashura attack he used in Water 7 and never again. It was stupid and I'm glad it's something he never made use of ever again.