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[Principate]

Uh....really? I mean plot importance, maybe, but character development?

Nami's character development went from "I should try to swindle these pirates" to "I should try to swindle other pirates" and Robin went from "I trust no one" to "I trust the strawhats."

One Piece is a extremely empty of character development, especially in the OP crew. The personalities, beliefs, associations, and alignment of all the characters are extremely static.

I'm not even arguing in favor of MHA here, because Ochako is still a work in progress and everything, but I mean, there's got to be SOMETHING better out there. Like, there's got to be, because OP is pathetic in terms of developing it's characters.

Eh Nami and Robin both have dreams goals and aspirations have made personal effort and sacrifies to achieve those dreams and formed friendships with others that also have their own dreams. They're also more integral to the than anyone bar Luffy (good luck finding one piece without either Nami or Robin). You just made a simplicification to the point of worthlessness. You can do that with any character at all.

 

[Veelk]

I know what sociology papers involve, I've read and continue to read several of them from different journals. It's not as black and white as your implying (ot's not remotely like what your implying really). Unlike far more hard sciences you'll find numerous vague papers that'll try to explain social systems, macro-level view at historical events, surface lev economics and whole bunch of other stuff. What your saying is simply that you prefer social commentary done in a believable manner which contradicts what you said before. Social commentary done well can be a great assest to a piece of fiction and it's evocative nature. I still find it extremely weird how some that enjoys analysing stories so much does like having it in pieces of fiction..

Well, first, I mostly studied nueroscience, but I read some anthropology and sociology papers. And yeah, they try to describe how society works, but that's not a judgement value on societies is. As a science, most of what I read just tries to describe how things are and how they can best be observed. A neonazi and a BLM could both 100% agree with a sociology paper detailing how black people are discriminated against. But they'd have different judgement values on what that means. And social commentary is usually a judgement value. The message of To Kill a Mockingbird isn't "Black people are treated unfairly", it's "Black people are treated unfairly and that's wrong".

But anyway, if you think I'm saying "I don't like social commentary at all" or that I want it out of stories, I don't know what to tell you except your not really listening to what I'm saying here, and I can't explain it other ways than waht I already wrote, but I'll repeat it one more time.

Social commentary in storiesis best when it's not trying to be social commentary first and foremost, but a story. To Kill a Mockingbird has great things to say about race, but only because it has great things to say about Atticus and Boo and Scout. The social commentary is only meaningful because the characters in the story are great and feel authentic. It's a byproduct of having characters that feel real. But when the story is a byproduct of the social commentary, it's not good. So it's the story that makes the social commentary meaningful, not the social commentary that makes the story meaningful. So if all you have is a social comment to make, you'd be better off just making the social comment. But if you have a story to tell, then you can have the social comment made by the characters.

Eh Nami and Robin both have dreams goals and aspirations have made personal effort and sacrifies to achieve those dreams and formed friendships with others that also have their own dreams. They're also more integral to the than anyone bar Luffy (good luck finding one piece without either Nami or Robin). You just made a simplicification to the point of worthlessness. You can do that with any character at all.

What you just described isn't character development. At least not in any sense I recognize as meaningful.

Also, I really don't care so much about plot importance. The laws of OP are so frivilous in terms of survivability and OP never touches on how Nami does her job or why she is the only one who can do it, I'm never going to believe that Nami is as integral as people make her out to be. I mean, Bart's crew had no problem navigating their ship from Loguetown to Dressrosa without a navigator, for instance. They made it to Zou without Nami. Through dumb luck and desperation, I'm sure, but dumb luck tends to find the strawhats pretty often, so if Nami just left the strawhats, I'd have no doubt Luffy would find a way to bumblefuck his way to Raftel anyway.

 

[Metal B]

I agree the lack of dark-skin folk is noticeable, though there is a couple of them sprinkled in there (Daz Bones is one major one). However the strange thing about One Piece is that while all the humans things are generally light-skinned, pretty much every facial feature and hair style in the human race has been represented in some form or another. There isn't really this idea of "Black people are supposed to look like this, white people are supposed to look like this, and Latino people are supposed to look like THIS!" that a lot of series out there when they create designs based around diversity. Characters like Usopp, Brook (human), and Aokiji are prime examples of characters that have features associated with Africans in cartoons. But would it really be any better if those characters were black for convention's sake? Probably not. in fact people would just argue those characters are typical and/or racist depictions of black people.

One important aspect of having less darkskined character is simply time. Those characters need to be filled with ink or screentone on every panel. So the artist saves himself a lot of time by simply keeping most major characters white.
Oda simply introduces different characteristics between races to have differcety (fishman, Zous, long arm people, size in general, etc), but have everybody be white to save himself a lot of work. The guy has to create a comic almost any week ... He needs those shortcuts and he found a creative solution.

 

[Blackleg-sanji1]

Uh....really? I mean plot importance, maybe, but character development?

Nami's character development went from "I should try to swindle these pirates" to "I should try to swindle other pirates" and Robin went from "I trust no one" to "I trust the strawhats."

One Piece is a extremely empty of character development, especially in the OP crew. The personalities, beliefs, associations, and alignment of all the characters are extremely static.

I'm not even arguing in favor of MHA here, because Ochako is still a work in progress and everything, but I mean, there's got to be SOMETHING better out there. Like, there's got to be, because OP is pathetic in terms of developing it's characters.

You mean to tell me the only thing you got out of robins change is a simple I trust no one I trust the strawhat now. Plz..

 

[Principate]

Well, first, I mostly studied nueroscience, but I read some anthropology and sociology papers. And yeah, they try to describe how society works, but that's not a judgement value on societies is. As a science, most of what I read just tries to describe how things are and how they can best be observed. A neonazi and a BLM could both 100% agree with a sociology paper detailing how black people are discriminated against. But they'd have different judgement values on what that means.

But anyway, if you think I'm saying "I don't like social commentary at all" or that I want it out of stories, I don't know what to tell you except your not really listening to what I'm saying here, and I can't explain it other ways than waht I already wrote, but I'll repeat it one more time.

Social commentary in storiesis best when it's not trying to be social commentary first and foremost, but a story. To Kill a Mockingbird has great things to say about race, but only because it has great things to say about Atticus and Boo and Scout. The social commentary is only meaningful because the characters in the story are great and feel authentic. It's a byproduct of having characters that feel real. So it's the story that makes the social commentary meaningful, not the social commentary that makes the story meaningful. So if all you have is a social comment to make, you'd be better off just making the social comment. But if you have a story to tell, then you can have the social comment made by the characters.

Ethics and conclusions aren't the same thing. The purpose of the sociology paper is to define and describe a social system but there's no one size fits all Not all sociology papers even deal with hard data. In fact plenty don't or rather had you. You'll have a few hundred simply defining globalisation neoliberalism or racism without hard data. You have plenty that make conclusions and judgements. That's what I mean by it's mot remotely as black and white a your implying it's a massive field.

The point about social commentary is that well defined and realised story is what makes effective communication of social commentary. To kill a mocking bird is an almost autobiography with extra's added in to make a convincing and effective story. These types of novels were created with the explicit purpose of social commentary the fact effective and believable adds credence to that commentary it's not separate from it. If you read these stories and ignored them you entirely missed the point.

Your right in that thinly made social commentaries don't work well as stories but that's the same with anything. If you don't properly realise the story it won't have it's intended effect regardless of what your trying to do with it.

What you just described isn't character development. At least not in any sense I recognize as meaningful.

Also, I really don't care so much about plot importance. The laws of OP are so frivilous in terms of survivability and OP never touches on how Nami does her job or why she is the only one who can do it, I'm never going to believe that Nami is as integral as people make her out to be. I mean, Bart's crew had no problem navigating their ship from Loguetown to Dressrosa without a navigator, for instance. They made it to Zou without Nami. Through dumb luck and desperation, I'm sure, but dumb luck tends to find the strawhats pretty often, so if Nami just left the strawhats, I'd have no doubt Luffy would find a way to bumblefuck his way to Raftel anyway.

Defining a character goal working towards a character goal and willing to sacrifice that character goal for someone else isn't character development. Yeah ok then to be frank what you consider meanigfuk character development is utter bullshit. Because there's no way becoming fully realised independent actor is not meaningful character development. As the majority of characters within these sorts of stories don't even have that.

 

[Veelk]

Ethics and conclusions aren't the same thing. The purpose of the sociology paper is to define and describe a social system but there's no one size fits all Not all sociology papers even deal with hard data. In fact plenty don't or rather had you. You'll have a few hundred simply defining globalisation neoliberalism or racism without hard data. You have plenty that make conclusions and judgements. That's what I mean by it's mot remotely as black and white a your implying it's a massive field.

I really don't feel you understand what I'm getting at, because none of this has to do with what I'm saying.

Yes, I agree that sociology seeks to define and describe social systems. It does not, however, pass judgement on those social systems. That's ethics.

And social commentary usually doesn't stop at describing social systems, but passing a judgement value on them of some sort. I don't think I know many stories that just describe a social system without assigning judgement values to it.

The point about social commentary is that well defined and realised story is what makes effective communication of social commentary. To kill a mocking bird is an almost autobiography with extra's added in to make a convincing and effective story. These types of novels were created with the explicit purpose of social commentary the fact effective and believable adds credence to that commentary it's not separate from it. If you read these stories and ignored them you entirely missed the point.

Your right in that thinly made social commentaries don't work well as stories but that's the same with anything. If you don't properly realise the story it won't have it's intended effect regardless of what your trying to do with it.

If TKAMB was almost an autobiography, then it by definition wasn't a social commentary first and foremost unless you think life itself was saying "racism is wrong". Life doesn't have an opinion. So, again, it just seems like the social commentary is a byproduct of a story rather than the central thrust of it. The central thrust is "This is what I saw and thought growing up". The story came first.

Again, you seem to not get what I'm saying if you think I ignore social commentary, but I've said that enough, and if you don't get it now, I don't see how saying it again will help.

You mean to tell me the only thing you got out of robins change is a simple I trust no one I trust the strawhat now. Plz..

More or less. And I guess having her will to live reaffirmed too...but that's more of a return to default state. She wanted to live to find her dream, lost that desire because life is hell, then Luffy made her want to live again. Her wanting to live and figure out the void century isn't different from how Luffy found her. It is different with how she learned to trust luffy. So yeah, more or less.

Defining a character goal working towards a character goal and willing to sacrifice that character goal for someone else isn't character development. Yeah ok then to be frank what you consider meanigfuk character development is utter bullshit. Because there's no way becoming fully realised independent actor is not meaningful character development. As the majority of characters within these sorts of stories don't even have that.

Nami is the farthest thing from an independent actor given how she can't fight for shit...but if she was, I don't see how it's different from how she began. She was always free to do what she wanted with the arlong pirates, she just wanted to save her village, so she was building up towards that. But she seemed to have full autonomy in her work, so...*shrug*

That's the real thing here, her character hasn't changed, her priorities are the same. It's the circumstances that are different. She had to save her town before, but now that she doesn't, she's doing the same thing she's been doing before, except now it's for a boss she wants to do it for vs arlong.

 

[Principate]

I really don't feel you understand what I'm getting at, because none of this has to do with what I'm saying.

Yes, I agree that sociology seeks to define and describe social systems. It does not, however, pass judgement on those social systems. That's ethics.

And social commentary usually doesn't stop at describing social systems, but passing a judgement value on them of some sort. I don't think I know many stories that just describe a social system without assigning judgement values to it.



If TKAMB was almost an autobiography, then it by definition wasn't a social commentary first and foremost unless you think life itself was saying "racism is wrong". Life doesn't have an opinion. So, again, it just seems like the social commentary is a byproduct of a story rather than the central thrust of it. The central thrust is "This is what I saw and thought growing up". The story came first.

Again, you seem to not get what I'm saying if you think I ignore social commentary, but I've said that enough, and if you don't get it now, I don't see how saying it again will help.



More or less. And I guess having her will to live reaffirmed too...but that's more of a return to default state. She wanted to live to find her dream, lost that desire because life is hell, then Luffy made her want to live again. Her wanting to live and figure out the void century isn't different from how Luffy found her. It is different with how she learned to trust luffy. So yeah, more or less.



Nami is the farthest thing from an independent actor given how she can't fight for shit...but if she was, I don't see how it's different from how she began. She was always free to do what she wanted with the arlong pirates, she just wanted to save her village, so she was building up towards that. But she seemed to have full autonomy in her work, so...*shrug*

That's the real thing here, her character hasn't changed, her priorities are the same. It's the circumstances that are different. She had to save her town before, but now that she doesn't, she's doing the same thing she's been doing before, except now it's for a boss she wants to do it for vs arlong.

What on earth are you on about? Are you saying you can't have a social commentary about events that have happened in your life that are endemic of a greater problem? The reason why it's not an actual autobiography was the author changed elements of the story to get the message across better. Such as Atticus being far more liberal than her actual father.


We already been through your nonsense arguement of lack of fighting somehow meaning your not an independent actor.

 

[NHarmonic.]

So Oda, the man who's created 15+ years of content, a full fleshed, interesting world and thousands of creatives stories and characters can't possibly think about more fights for some of his female main chars? (Robin?, Nami?) while there's tons of different male secondary characters with far stranger powers that have no problem getting into battles?

Yeah, not buying it.

 

[Veelk]

What on earth are you on about? Are you saying you can't have a social commentary about events that have happened in your life that are endemic of a greater problem? The reason why it's not an actual autobiography was the author changed elements of the story to get the message across better. Such as Atticus being far more liberal than her actual father.

...No. No that's not what I'm saying, but it seems that communication is problematic here.

Instead, I'll just quote what I feel best describes my position.

The social commentary is only meaningful because the characters in the story are great and feel authentic. It's a byproduct of having characters that feel real. But when the story is a byproduct of the social commentary, it's not good. So it's the story that makes the social commentary meaningful, not the social commentary that makes the story meaningful.

I...really don't know how else to put it, or what you even are processing this as when you read it. It feels like I'm writing as plainly and simply as I can, but you keep veering into something that resembles me saying that social commentary can't or shouldn't be in a work or some shit.

I'm saying it as plainly as I can: In all examples shown, stories are best when their about making the story good first, and social commentary second. The best social commentary stories can work just as well if you ignore the social commentary stuff, because the only reason the social commentary stuff works is if the stories feel real and authentic.

It's not just saying "Social commentary stories should be good", it's saying "More important than having a social comment or message is a story being good, because good social commentary/messages will come from a story being good without any real effort"

We already been through your nonsense arguement of lack of fighting somehow meaning your not an independent actor.

I genuinely don't see how one can argue that Luffy is dependent on Nami because she navigates shit off screen, while simultaneously arguing that Nami isn't dependent on her crewmates fighting.....fucking everything which takes place on panels.

If Luffy is dependent on Nami for something that minor, Nami is EXTREMELY dependent others for everything once they get on an island.

But I'm personally getting tired of the increasing prevalent "Your wrong and nonsensical" undertones when you can only every comprehend caricatures of my arguments, so I think it's best to end it here.

 

[Principate]

...No. No that's not what I'm saying, but it seems that communication is problematic here.

Instead, I'll just quote what I feel best describes my position.



I...really don't know how else to put it, or what you even are processing this as when you read it. It feels like I'm writing as plainly and simply as I can, but you keep veering into something that resembles me saying that social commentary can't or shouldn't be in a work or some shit.

I'm saying it as plainly as I can: In all examples shown, stories are best when their about making the story good first, and social commentary second. The best social commentary stories can work just as well if you ignore the social commentary stuff, because the only reason the social commentary stuff works is if the stories feel real and authentic.

It's not just saying "Social commentary stories should be good", it's saying "More important than having a social comment or message is a story being good, because good social commentary/messages will come from a story being good without any real effort"



I genuinely don't see how one can argue that Luffy is dependent on Nami because she navigates shit off screen, while simultaneously arguing that Nami isn't dependent on her crewmates fighting.....fucking everything which takes place on panels.

If Luffy is dependent on Nami for something that minor, Nami is EXTREMELY dependent others for everything once they get on an island.

Luffy couldn't even be at a commander without Nami. Your arguements makes least amount sense now than it has ever been. Nami has contributed an equal amount to the success of this arc as Luffy has fighting or others.

 

[Veelk]

Luffy couldn't even be at a commander without Nami. Your arguements makes least amount sense now than it has ever been. Nami has contributed an equal amount to the success of this arc as Luffy has fighting or others.

That's the thing.

Luffy couldn't beat a commander without her help...but he was the one doing it. Nami didn't beat Cracker, she was just support to the guy who did.

Being support is, by fucking definition, not being independent.\

And by centering the discussion on Nami yet again, it demonstrates that however many times this problem is seemingly discussed, people don't seem to comprehend that it's more of an issue of it being an epidemic of women as a whole than Nami being a support character in particular. Of the characters, women are in the extreme minority. Of the women characters, fighters are an minority of that. Of the women fighting characters, very few have received the full on fight scene treatment that male characters get. Or the female characters, very few are in a position of being the the central authority of their group. If Nami was a support character in a world where we see plenty of women Luffy's, Zoro's, and *gag* Sanji's, this wouldn't even be a discussion.

 

[BatDan]

Pfffffffff... this is going to be a long 11-12 days.

Spoiler

There is nothing wrong with big tits.

 

[IceBringer]

Mha is pretty good. But it's nowhere close to being as good as One Piece. It's more on black clovers and the seven deadly sins level

 

[BatDan]

Mha is pretty good. But it's nowhere close to being as good as One Piece. It's more on black clovers and the seven deadly sins level

That's just mean.

 

[SolVanderlyn]

You guys think Enel is ever coming back?

 

[Ray Down]

You guys think Enel is ever coming back?

I don't think so, I imagine he is just stuck on the moon.

 

[NSESN]

Watched the first 5 episodes of MHA, liking it a lot so far.

 

[Blackleg-sanji1]

You guys think Enel is ever coming back?

I sure hope so you don't send a fruit like that to the moon for ever

 

[Alanood]

So Oda, the man who's created 15+ years of content, a full fleshed, interesting world and thousands of creatives stories and characters can't possibly think about more fights for some of his female main chars? (Robin?, Nami?) while there's tons of different male secondary characters with far stranger powers that have no problem getting into battles?

Imagine two huge oppais fighting...hello there fairy tail 2.0

 

[TheGreatDirector]

I wonder if we'll get a backstory of some kind for Big Mom. Her reaction to the Vinsmokes asking about giants seems to indicate that something unpleasant happened between her and them in the past.

 

[Alanood]

You guys think Enel is ever coming back?

Yep, he's one of the most strong characters. It'd be interesting to see him destroying some of the supernova crews or picking fights with yonkos/marines.
Also, his trip to the moon indicate that he might be coming back with new technologies he he found out some secrets he heard about.
I remember when those 'D clan are related to the moon/sky' theories were popular and wish Oda reveals the mystery to be as mindblowing as those theories, if not more.
Plus, I like his character, he's back after finishing Kaido's arc.

 

[Cloud Strife]

Uh....really? I mean plot importance, maybe, but character development?

Nami's character development went from "I should try to swindle these pirates" to "I should try to swindle other pirates" and Robin went from "I trust no one" to "I trust the strawhats."

One Piece is a extremely empty of character development, especially in the OP crew. The personalities, beliefs, associations, and alignment of all the characters are extremely static.

I'm not even arguing in favor of MHA here, because Ochako is still a work in progress and everything, but I mean, there's got to be SOMETHING better out there. Like, there's got to be, because OP is pathetic in terms of developing it's characters.

That's a ridiculous over-simplification and you know it. Forgoing plot importance, which at this point is plainly obvious to anyone following the story, their character development is so much more than a majority of Shounen females.

Nami at Saobody with her relationship with Hachi? Robin growing more emotive as a person in later arcs? Come on son.

Ochako isn't bad, and I'm super excited to see what the author does with her, but comparing her to Nami and Robin at this point is silly.

 

[MCD]

Log Horizon's MC is a support character in battle and still kick ass.

You don't need to punch punch punch just to prove a point.

 

[grandjedi6]

Air Gear had a major plot point where Obama gets mindswapped into the body of a teenage girl.

Don't forget Obama's tragic backstory where everyone in his African village were burned alive in a terrorist gas explosion.

Or when he masturbated in said girl's body:

I'm not sure how any of us survived Air Gear

 

[LotusHD]

I survived by not reading it.

 

[Ogodei]

Imagine two huge oppais fighting...hello there fairy tail 2.0

So, Nami v. Kalifa? Hot chicks fight in a bathroom and one of them has soap powers? (not that Kalifa's soap powers weren't surprisingly clever).

Some characters have remained pretty flat: Franky, Brook, Zoro, and up to this arc, Sanji. Everyone else has had a pretty good arc thus far and changed a few times.

I'll be interested to see where Sanji's character goes after this.

 

[SolVanderlyn]

Brook has actually been treated really well with the timeskip, and this arc is dropping hint bombs for him like crazy. Franky/Zoro I agree with though. I loved Zoro during his introduction, and for a good while after, but he quickly became the most boring member of the crew IMO. I'd say he started to get noticeably stale post-Water 7.

 

[Ray Down]

I survived by not reading it.

You are the better person for doing so.

 

[IceBringer]

But Zoro's the best strawhat

 

[Ray Down]

But Zoro's the best strawhat

Thats not alien Sanji.

Spoiler

Or Usopp, or Nami, or Franky.

 

[IceBringer]

Thats not alien Sanji.

Spoiler

Or Usopp, or Nami, or Franky.

Usopp?
Usopp!?!???

 

[SolVanderlyn]

 

[Ray Down]

The hero One Piece deserves.

Pudding is the heroine One Piece deserves.

 

[SolVanderlyn]

Love this

 

[cdunson]

Am I the only one not really enjoying this arc? Idk whats wrong but its not really resonating with me. The whole Sanji portion definitetly hits the feels but I'm ready for him to actually do work and show that he is still a monster.

Happy to learn more about Big mom - her values, crew members and such but I have this strong feeling Luffy's bout with her wont end this arc so I'm kinda just wanna move on already. My favorite two arcs have rattled back to back in Dressrosa and Zou so I can' expect it to keep rising but still, I'm sorta ready to move on pending so real sanji badassery.

 

[LotusHD]

I mean, I'm more than ready to get to this wedding already and see the bomb explode and what not, but nah, I've been loving the hell out of this arc.

 

[Veelk]

That's a ridiculous over-simplification and you know it. Forgoing plot importance, which at this point is plainly obvious to anyone following the story, their character development is so much more than a majority of Shounen females.

Nami at Saobody with her relationship with Hachi? Robin growing more emotive as a person in later arcs? Come on son.

Ochako isn't bad, and I'm super excited to see what the author does with her, but comparing her to Nami and Robin at this point is silly.

Okay. So in 800+ chapters, Nami also went from liking one person she didn't previously, like that was only there for like a few chapters and whose presence wasn't even that significant. And Robin emotes a bit better. And that's it?

I'm trying to throw you a bone here, but you're seriously not impressing me here. This is some seriously paltry, small time, insignificant shit. Like, maybe if Nami has shown hated toward fishmen before Hachi tried to make amends or something, but she only ever really seemed to hate Arlong. Instead, she just went from being somewhat suspicious/skeptical/leery of Hachi to....not. And I'm not even arguing against it counting as development, but I'm struggling to see why it's meaningful or important. So she lays off Hachi for the shit she did....So? Who cares? How is the story different than if she didn't? It's not like she makes any important decisions regarding him later on. He just has some guilt knocked off.

In comparison, I just finished reading Better Served Cold, and that book has characters almost oppositely aligned from where they started out. Like, they are almost entirely different people than who they began as. I didn't even like the book that much overall, but dammit, that's freaking character development. MASSIVE differences between who they were and who they became. And I'm still really not that convinced plot importance is as meaningful a feature as you make it out to be.

"isn't nasty to minor nothing character" and "Emotes better" is so small, it's barely worth notice. It doesn't have to be as big a difference as the book I mentioned above, but trying to parade these as the best of Shonen has to be some kind of joke.

 

[Nightbird]

As a Fan of both, MHA and One Pice, the last page kinda was like watching two buddies fighting >.>

And then, randomly schoolgirl obama

years after reading it i have yet to decide if i hate Air Gear or not.

I mean, the actual story was trash, but on the other hand, it serves as perfect reminder just how insane some stuff can become

 

[Man God]

Love this

Why we still posting about Fairy Tail?

 

[Blackleg-sanji1]

Why we still posting about Fairy Tail?

 

[NSESN]

Man this thread after a Pudding chapter and after a not Pudding chapter is completely different. I am worried we can't live without her anymore.

 

[Lynx_7]

Brook has actually been treated really well with the timeskip, and this arc is dropping hint bombs for him like crazy. Franky/Zoro I agree with though. I loved Zoro during his introduction, and for a good while after, but he quickly became the most boring member of the crew IMO. I'd say he started to get noticeably stale post-Water 7.

His scene with Kuma at the end of Thriller Bark is legit though. I'm rereading the series right now and during this initial stretch (~133 chapters) he has by far the most memorable moments of the crew bar Luffy (and sometimes even outshines him like in Baratie and Whiskey Peak). Maybe the time-skip wasn't kind to him, like I still don't know how I feel about him being trained by Mihawk though I guess it makes sense for Oda if he's setting up Shiryu or another swordsman as Zoro's true final boss. Franky is a cool dude but yeah, he doesn't have much going for him post-Water 7.

It's been kinda interesting to revisit the early parts of the story for the first time in over 10 years because my tastes have changed a lot since then and my opinion about a few characters are shaping up somewhat different. I get it now why so many of you here give Sanji a hard time, his schtick is so damn prominent even this early on and sometimes makes him look like an asshole to the other crewmates. I still like him but dude, tone it down a little bit. It also reminded me how I liked Nami before she slowly got flanderized.

 

[Cloud Strife]

Okay. So in 800+ chapters, Nami also went from liking one person she didn't previously, like that was only there for like a few chapters and whose presence wasn't even that significant. And Robin emotes a bit better. And that's it?

1) A character's length of appearance is not mutually exclusive to their influence on another's character progression.

2) I can reduce any character in any work of fiction ever in the format of what you just presented here. "Oh, so Prince Zuko went from liking someone he didn't previously? So Prince Zuko emotes a bit better, and that's it?"

If you seriously can't understand the significance of interacting with Hachi, A FISHMAN, in an environment like Saobody, then either you didn't get it or you're willfully ignoring (see below) any form of character progression that doesn't meet your lofty tastes. What you say about Robin is even further to that point. What a ridiculous statement, dude.

I'm trying to throw you a bone here, but you're seriously not impressing me here.

The argument is "Nami and Robin have good character development in relation to other Shounen Manga", not "Nami and Robin aren't as good as Veelk wants them to be". Regardless, it's not my business to impress you of anything because clearly your standards are quite high for a fucking Shounen.

And I'm not even arguing against it counting as development, but I'm struggling to see why it's meaningful or important.

This is a different conversation. I would argue it demonstrates her lack of world knowledge and the beginning of a struggle about her childhood that fully comes to fruition during Fishman island. It's relevant to her becoming more sincere, and seeing beyond race.

So she lays off Hachi for the shit she did....So? Who cares? How is the story different than if she didn't? It's not like she makes any important decisions regarding him later on. He just has some guilt knocked off.

The fact that you're focusing solely on Hachi instead of Nami, the subject of the character development, leads me to believe you don't understand what character development is...? But that can't be true. This isn't about plot progression. This is about a character being put into a situation (Nami confronting Fishmen as a minority) and changing because of it (Her interactions with saving Hachi and with Jinbei during the fishman island arc). What's changed, is Nami is a

In comparison, I just finished reading Better Served Cold

Great? What does your book have to do with this? I'm glad there's another work of fiction that does character development better in your eyes. I'm not arguing One Piece is the paragon on fiction. Keep in mind One Piece is also NOT OVER YET. Where a character ends up doesn't automatically determine how good their character development was.

And I'm still really not that convinced plot importance is as meaningful a feature as you make it out to be.

Again, not the point.

It doesn't have to be as big a difference as the book I mentioned above, but trying to parade these as the best of Shonen has to be some kind of joke.

It would help if you countered the argument with actual Shounen examples instead of making assumptions based on how good or bad you deem One Piece to be in this area. At this point you're doing more to convince me you just want to scream and shout that One Piece sucks than actually engage.

 

[Mendrox]

Veelk at it again, huh? Why even bother with this thread on every other day except release day lol

 

[bjork]

Veelk at it again, huh? Why even bother with this thread on every other day except release day lol

The thread goes in a cycle. A post like this is also part of the cycle, to be followed with the string of "if you're not gonna discuss the manga in depth why are you even here, Veelk is entitled to his opinion" posts, followed by some post a page or two from now where he rolls in with his "aw shucks did I do that, I don't even like One Piece lol" kind of post. Then the chapter drops and we move on.

 

[Cloud Strife]

The thread goes in a cycle. A post like this is also part of the cycle, to be followed with the string of "if you're not gonna discuss the manga in depth why are you even here, Veelk is entitled to his opinion" posts, followed by some post a page or two from now where he rolls in with his "aw shucks did I do that, I don't even like One Piece lol" kind of post. Then the chapter drops and we move on.

*shrugs*

 

[Blackleg-sanji1]

Veelk at it again, huh? Why even bother with this thread on every other day except release day lol

Let me help you out this may seem like an asshole thing to say aloud but at least it'll lower these posts as well as make you feel better in the thread(like me)

Ignore list

 

[Veelk]

1) A character's length of appearance is not mutually exclusive to their influence on another's character progression.

2) I can reduce any character in any work of fiction every in the format of what you just presented here. "Oh, so Prince Zuko went from liking someone he didn't previously? So Prince Zuko emotes a bit better, and that's it?"

If you seriously can't understand the significance of interacting with Hachi, A FISHMAN, in an environment like Saobody, then either you didn't get it or you're willfully ignoring (see below) any form of character progression that doesn't meet your lofty tastes. What you say about Robin is even further to that point. What a ridiculous statement, dude.

I mean, if you want to make THAT comparison, then the case speaks for itself. Zuko's literal world view changed. His life goal changed. How he perceives the world has changed. How he acts has changed. And this change has altered the entire direction of the storyline.

That is a good example of what I consider substantial and meaningful character development. Zuko of episode 1 is angry raving asshole, wants to capture the avatar, holds to the ideals of a violent genocidal nation. By the end, he is an awkward but friendly dude who works with the avatar tp bring down the empire and holds to peaceful ideals. He's a completely different person and the story literally couldn't not have turned out the way it did without him going through that change.

I'm not trying to reduce Nami's character development, but I just don't see that kind of change with Nami. She doesn't seem a different person before Hachi in Saobody and after at all. The only difference is that she holds Hachi in higher regard, and.....and what? What does this change? How is her personality different? Why is this important? How is Nami or the rest of the OP world different for Nami having forgiven Hachi? What did she do that she wouldn't have done if she had continued to resent Hachi?

The argument is "Nami and Robin have good character development in relation to other Shounen Manga", not "Nami and Robin aren't as good as Veelk wants them to be". Regardless, it's not my business to impress you of anything because clearly your standards are quite high for a fucking Shounen.

If we're comparing it to other shonen, then Winry from FMA goes through a similar process of having to forgive someone whose hurt her in the past (Scar). Difference being is that Winry has expressed specific hatred for this person before (so there is a set up, while I don't recall Nami really hating fishmen or Hachi in particular, just Arlong) and then it had actual impact on the story because Winry was willing to participate in a plan that she wouldn't have been able to if she hadn't forgiven Scar, which had significant impact on how the story progressed

I just don't see this where the idea that this is some high, lofty, unreachable standard here. I mean, I don't even Winry's character development in that part is mindblowing or anything, but it fulfills the basic criteria of being a meaningful change by 1. showing actually changing the characters position from where it used to be and 2. having that change impact the course of the story. I don't think this is too much to ask for.

This is a different conversation. I would argue it demonstrates her lack of world knowledge and the beginning of a struggle about her childhood that fully comes to fruition during Fishman island. It's relevant to her becoming more sincere, and seeing beyond race.

I don't really remember a time where she didn't see beyond race. She only ever hated Arlong. I've read the manga twice, and if there was ever a sign that Nami hated fishmen in general, I've missed it. I mean, even when Hachi showed up, she felt like she was more leery of him being there, but it's not like she was demanding he leave or anything.

Can you point me to a decision she made or an event that happened because she couldn't see beyond race before?

The fact that you're focusing solely on Hachi instead of Nami, the subject of the character development, leads me to believe you don't understand what character development is...? But that can't be true. This isn't about plot progression. This is about a character being put into a situation (Nami confronting Fishmen as a minority) and changing because of it (Her interactions with saving Hachi and with Jinbei during the fishman island arc). What's changed, is Nami is a

I'm asking what her laying off Hachi signified and what were the consquences were. That's not focusing the subject on Hachi.

So the argument here is that Nami wouldn't have saved Hachi if she hadn't forgiven him there? That's the change that happened?

Eh...I don't know. Nami is kind of a bleeding heart. Maybe she wouldn't have, but I also wouldn't have questioned her saving him even if her forgiving him didn't happen. Similarly 'confronting fishmen as a minority' is just a weird thing to cite as a change when she never demonstrated a racist bone in her body.

As far as I can tell, you're argument is that Nami may not have done things we don't really have reason to believe she wouldn't do anyway if not for her interaction and forgiveness with Hachi. And the only real narrative course of events is that Hachi would have died (which itself is hard to believe since OP characters are like cockroaches), and....honestly, I just am not seeing how this would have affected the story. Like, okay, lets say Hachi did die and Nami was still against Fishmen.

The only conceivable significant change I can imagine is that Jinbei would have been more reluctant to join if she hadn't forgiven him? Maybe? Because he might not want to join a crew knowing someone in it resented him? But even then, I don't know, he may have just bitten the bullet regarding it. And since it's not like Nami hated fishmen on principle, it feels like they would have patched things up between themselves.

So, in the most optimistic light possible, we can only hypothesize about things that might have gone differently, maybe. That's pretty weak in comparison to examples where we KNOW would have gone differently and had major impact on the way things played out like in the case of Winry and Zuko.

Great? What does your book have to do with this? I'm glad there's another work of fiction that does character development better in your eyes. I'm not arguing One Piece is the paragon on fiction. Keep in mind One Piece is also NOT OVER YET. Where a character ends up doesn't automatically determine how good their character development was.

The point is that there OP's character development is paltry. And with Nami having been around since the start, 850 chapters with barely any character development is kind of a low ratio. I'm saying if this is the best shonen has to offer on character development...that's pathetic to the point I have difficulty believing. And I do think citing comparisons, even outside the medium, is a valid way of demonstrating that.

It would help if you countered the argument with actual Shounen examples instead of making assumptions based on how good or bad you deem One Piece to be in this area. At this point you're doing more to convince me you just want to scream and shout that One Piece sucks than actually engage.

Honestly, I don't see what genre/medium has to do with it, really. Character development is kind of a universal tool that stories of all sorts engage with. I don't see it as an excuse when you immediately have substantial character development with MHA in the first two chapters where the main character goes from wimp who can't stand up to himself to someone more confident in his abilities.

And you know what, the lack of character development over the period of time it's been published is a criticism I have of the series, but it's not even about that anymore. It's just the insistence that Nami and Robin (or, I'd argue, any straw hat character) has changed in any substantial way that I find to be baffling. One Piece is a story with some of the most static main characters I've ever read about, even if we only limit that to manga. Fuck, even Naruto...which I'll happily admit is a far, FAR inferior manga to One Piece....has it's characters be more dynamic as the story develops. It's poorly written, so it doesn't help it, but "Nami and Robin have the most character development in shonen" just seems factually incorrect when that piece of shit character Sasuke exists, who changes his world views, alliances, goals, and personality like 3 times through his manga.

The thread goes in a cycle. A post like this is also part of the cycle, to be followed with the string of "if you're not gonna discuss the manga in depth why are you even here, Veelk is entitled to his opinion" posts, followed by some post a page or two from now where he rolls in with his "aw shucks did I do that, I don't even like One Piece lol" kind of post. Then the chapter drops and we move on.

Well, what can I say, you have to have a breaking point somewhere. Even I don't like these discussions to go on forever. But don't get how people can become as vitriolic as they do in discussing this. Like, even if you disagree with me completely or feel I'm making bad arguments, you could still just talk to me like a normal person. I usually break away when shit gets outright antagonistic, which it seems to be on the precipice of doing now.

 

[bjork]

Well, what can I say, you have to have a breaking point somewhere. Even I don't like these discussions to go on forever. But don't get how people can become as vitriolic as they do in discussing this. Like, even if you disagree with me completely or feel I'm making bad arguments, you could still just talk to me like a normal person. I usually break away when shit gets outright antagonistic, which it seems to be on the precipice of doing now.

It's just a manga to me, so I could really go either way on it. I just don't get trying to read so much into, from both sides of any argument ever in here, what's meant to be a simple comic written by a guy that has a pretty obvious set of world views that haven't changed for 20 years.

Though I will say, you shouldn't break away from antagonism when you've basically admitted you enjoy antagonizing people here. Dish it out and take it, it's a good way to be.

Anyway, I wish we had a chapter this week. Oda's good at timing the content to pop off right when it's time for a holiday. What a butthole.

 

[Blackleg-sanji1]

Anyway, I wish we had a chapter this week. Oda's good at timing the content to pop off right when it's time for a holiday. What a butthole.

Lol he always does it when shit gets good. I still remember last year's Gear 4th...Nu uh break suckas