What do you mean all wrong?
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One Piece Manga |OT2| Four Emperors, One King, All Blue
- Thread starter Cloud Strife
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Some of the faces looked off
KuwabaraTheMan
Banned
The greatest.
Cloud Strife
Member
Alright dude, this is the last post I'm going to make on this very askew discussion. Would be happy to take it to PMs, since it seems like no one else is jumping in here. I know for a fact you like to argue because you're arguing me into a different conversation. Now this is a "Prove to me that Nami/Robin have character development" versus a "Nami and Robin have better character development than most shounen females". Whether the character development satisfies you or not is truly besides the point, because I could spend all day posting evidence for you (which I'll do just this once) only for you to disagree with me. I'm gonna post chapters and you can do your own research.
I think you should have asked me to actually provide examples from other shounen instead, which would have been a better argument than trying to make me prove that Nami and Robin have decent character development. But I suppose you haven't read some things, so idk how that would have played out.
What? You were the one who told me I can't have both and I have to pick either one, thus insinuating a dichotomy. And here is the crux of where this conversation diverged: "meaningful" is entirely subjective.
Fair enough. The Giant Children example applies to the plot, but that doesn't discard my point. Whether plot relevant (which we are defining as moving the actual story along) or not, you can see instances of character development in a character with the situations they are placed in.
Why can't it be more than one thing? In that specific example I don't really think you can argue she isn't thinking about her past when the scene right fucking before it is Robin explicitly stating how fishmen are beneath humans in that place. If my entire childhood and teenage years were about fishmen killing my fellow humans and emotionally torturing me then I'd probably be like "..." too as I thought about it. Not really impossible, and clearly insinuated with the preceding discussion.
Sure.
Nami is introduced as a compassionate (lol) young girl that fucks people over for money:
Chapter 9
Nami being a dick: Chapter 50
Nami's reason for being a dick (Nami's entire flashback): Chapter 77-80
Nami bring a dick still, but not really: Chapter 111 and 113
Nami reflecting on her past (the ONE thing we focused on):
Chapter 492, she decides to save Camie after thinking about how Hachi is not as big a dick as Arlong.
Chapter 496, Nami eating the Takoyaki away from the group with "...". I wonder what she's thinking about, Veelk?
Chapter 500, "Even those strong fishman?" aka holy fucking shit fishmen can be minorities!
*keep reading for Nami getting emotional at the Auction House with "I don't care what the price is!" Wow! I don't think old Nami would ever give a fuck about spending all that money, would you?
Chapter 617, What's she thinking about here...hmm....("Holy fuck there are fishmen like Arlong?! Remember that time I was fucked over by Arlong? I'm shocked there are fishmen that believe his shit!")
Chapter 618: Just in case you were doubting that's what she was thinking. Further still, she's actually realized something! (minoritiesgettingfuckedoverforyearscreatesbadpeople)
Chapter 620: HERE YOU GO VEELK
Chapter 627: End of flashback, Nami accepts her suffering as a part of her identity. Forgives Jimbei.
*Enter stage where Nami is more cognizant of how hatred can fester and create something*
And now we have Punk Hazard, and Zou where Nami's first instinct is to save people. Is it to get money from them? Nope.
Well how about that? Assuming you actually checked out all these chapters I'd say the character development is pretty evident.
Do you need some more? Let me know in PMs. Some stuff we never discussed was her whole relationship with Usopp and how she views being weak. There are more examples of those categories that I can look up if you pay me a salary, but this should do. Remember, if you reply with "well that's not very good character development" that's not what I'm arguing for.
See the examples above, but there is a difference between helping someone out because of passion and helping out someone to get money. Cat Burglar Nami, my dude. Further, I never said she was ruthless, which is not the entire opposite of being compassionate which you seem to think needs to be shown in order to prove my point. She can be a dick without wanting to straight up murder someone (if that's what you mean by ruthless).
Hey that's fine. I think most people take "I don't like One Piece" to mean you can't see past its flaws. But given this post you clearly do enjoy some things about it. I think it's fine to dislike something but to say to people here that you dislike One Piece makes them think you're being a tosser (no offence). I have no beef with you at all, and these drawn out conversations always seem to imply that we are fighting rather than having a conversation.
I think you should have asked me to actually provide examples from other shounen instead, which would have been a better argument than trying to make me prove that Nami and Robin have decent character development. But I suppose you haven't read some things, so idk how that would have played out.
What? You were the one who told me I can't have both and I have to pick either one, thus insinuating a dichotomy. And here is the crux of where this conversation diverged: "meaningful" is entirely subjective.
Fair enough. The Giant Children example applies to the plot, but that doesn't discard my point. Whether plot relevant (which we are defining as moving the actual story along) or not, you can see instances of character development in a character with the situations they are placed in.
Why can't it be more than one thing? In that specific example I don't really think you can argue she isn't thinking about her past when the scene right fucking before it is Robin explicitly stating how fishmen are beneath humans in that place. If my entire childhood and teenage years were about fishmen killing my fellow humans and emotionally torturing me then I'd probably be like "..." too as I thought about it. Not really impossible, and clearly insinuated with the preceding discussion.
Sure.
Nami is introduced as a compassionate (lol) young girl that fucks people over for money:
Chapter 9
Nami being a dick: Chapter 50
Nami's reason for being a dick (Nami's entire flashback): Chapter 77-80
Nami bring a dick still, but not really: Chapter 111 and 113
Nami reflecting on her past (the ONE thing we focused on):
Chapter 492, she decides to save Camie after thinking about how Hachi is not as big a dick as Arlong.
Chapter 496, Nami eating the Takoyaki away from the group with "...". I wonder what she's thinking about, Veelk?
Chapter 500, "Even those strong fishman?" aka holy fucking shit fishmen can be minorities!
*keep reading for Nami getting emotional at the Auction House with "I don't care what the price is!" Wow! I don't think old Nami would ever give a fuck about spending all that money, would you?
Chapter 617, What's she thinking about here...hmm....("Holy fuck there are fishmen like Arlong?! Remember that time I was fucked over by Arlong? I'm shocked there are fishmen that believe his shit!")
Chapter 618: Just in case you were doubting that's what she was thinking. Further still, she's actually realized something! (minoritiesgettingfuckedoverforyearscreatesbadpeople)
Chapter 620: HERE YOU GO VEELK
Chapter 627: End of flashback, Nami accepts her suffering as a part of her identity. Forgives Jimbei.
*Enter stage where Nami is more cognizant of how hatred can fester and create something*
And now we have Punk Hazard, and Zou where Nami's first instinct is to save people. Is it to get money from them? Nope.
Well how about that? Assuming you actually checked out all these chapters I'd say the character development is pretty evident.
Do you need some more? Let me know in PMs. Some stuff we never discussed was her whole relationship with Usopp and how she views being weak. There are more examples of those categories that I can look up if you pay me a salary, but this should do. Remember, if you reply with "well that's not very good character development" that's not what I'm arguing for.
See the examples above, but there is a difference between helping someone out because of passion and helping out someone to get money. Cat Burglar Nami, my dude. Further, I never said she was ruthless, which is not the entire opposite of being compassionate which you seem to think needs to be shown in order to prove my point. She can be a dick without wanting to straight up murder someone (if that's what you mean by ruthless).
Hey that's fine. I think most people take "I don't like One Piece" to mean you can't see past its flaws. But given this post you clearly do enjoy some things about it. I think it's fine to dislike something but to say to people here that you dislike One Piece makes them think you're being a tosser (no offence). I have no beef with you at all, and these drawn out conversations always seem to imply that we are fighting rather than having a conversation.
SolVanderlyn
Thanos acquires the fully powered Infinity Gauntlet in The Avengers: Infinity War, but loses when all the superheroes team up together to stop him.
Avatars are perfect for this discussion, although not necessarily by user
I think One Piece does a lot of things terribly wrong
Not this again, I will stop you, it's good because ... ... ... ...
I guess we're doing this again
This shit is whack. I'm out. Call me when the next chapter is out
Finally, a chance to argue over character development once again
I think One Piece does a lot of things terribly wrong
Not this again, I will stop you, it's good because ... ... ... ...
I guess we're doing this again
This shit is whack. I'm out. Call me when the next chapter is out
Finally, a chance to argue over character development once again
Cloud Strife
Member
Avatars are perfect for this discussion, although not necessarily by user
I think One Piece does a lot of things terribly wrong
Not this again, I will stop you, it's good because ... ... ... ...
I guess we're doing this again
This shit is whack. I'm out. Call me when the next chapter is out
Finally, a chance to argue over character development once again
hahahaha
should be put in the OP of the next thread
I PM'd, but I wanted to address the chapter evidence section publcially atleast.
I'm gonna disregard all these parts because I already admitted that you can argue that OP character do have development in their introductory arcs. I'm not arguing this. However, I'd also like to point out that not only was Nami also shown to have moral boundaries even here, it's revealed that her obsession over money is not greed, but rather just a way to try and save her home. So her dickishness is already infused in her compassion.
Here, I already pointed out that she does dickish things for the purpose of gags. Like you said, it's kinda being a dick...but not really.
Keep in mind that the request for evidence here was "give me an example of Nami being ruthless". I would have also accepted evidence of Nami showing racial hatred.
These are neither.
Be honest, do you really not discriminate between ANY negative feelings and racial hatred? Is it not possible that Nami would feel hesitance, discomfort, even dislike regarding Hachi, a former Arlong pirate, without having any actual hatred toward fishmen? Because even racial presumptions aren't racial hatred.
Let me see, would old Nami be willing to spend a shit ton of money to save a group of people?
If I recall correctly, that was her literal plan in Arlong Park. So, yes. We definitely have evidence of her spending obsene amounts of money to save lives. Yes, old Nami would do precisely that.
Okay, I can accept what you describe, that Nami wasn't aware that hatred festered the way it did, sure. So she did in fact change her mind about something, or atleast learned a new thing.
That's about as far as I can credit it. I'm sorry, but you still haven't proven to me that Nami ever had anything resembling racism or hatred in her or that she wouldn't save people (again, I am asked for a scene where she could ahve helped someone, but choose not to because she had nothing to gain from it. That would be a defintive contrast to her attitude now. Random instances of her being a dick for altrustic or comedic reasons or learning how racial hatred manifests is not evidence of her having those qualities).
All I can really say from this is that....Nami learned a thing. And, while I acknowledge it's subjectivity, I still can't help but feel it lacks a certain oomph when I don't really see what significant changes to the story this has produced. I can agree it's thematically resonant with the Fishman arc, but it's still eh because I don't see her learning about racial hatred as that significant when she wasn't consumed by any in the first place.
I'm gonna disregard all these parts because I already admitted that you can argue that OP character do have development in their introductory arcs. I'm not arguing this. However, I'd also like to point out that not only was Nami also shown to have moral boundaries even here, it's revealed that her obsession over money is not greed, but rather just a way to try and save her home. So her dickishness is already infused in her compassion.
Here, I already pointed out that she does dickish things for the purpose of gags. Like you said, it's kinda being a dick...but not really.
Keep in mind that the request for evidence here was "give me an example of Nami being ruthless". I would have also accepted evidence of Nami showing racial hatred.
These are neither.
Be honest, do you really not discriminate between ANY negative feelings and racial hatred? Is it not possible that Nami would feel hesitance, discomfort, even dislike regarding Hachi, a former Arlong pirate, without having any actual hatred toward fishmen? Because even racial presumptions aren't racial hatred.
Let me see, would old Nami be willing to spend a shit ton of money to save a group of people?
If I recall correctly, that was her literal plan in Arlong Park. So, yes. We definitely have evidence of her spending obsene amounts of money to save lives. Yes, old Nami would do precisely that.
Okay, I can accept what you describe, that Nami wasn't aware that hatred festered the way it did, sure. So she did in fact change her mind about something, or atleast learned a new thing.
That's about as far as I can credit it. I'm sorry, but you still haven't proven to me that Nami ever had anything resembling racism or hatred in her or that she wouldn't save people (again, I am asked for a scene where she could ahve helped someone, but choose not to because she had nothing to gain from it. That would be a defintive contrast to her attitude now. Random instances of her being a dick for altrustic or comedic reasons or learning how racial hatred manifests is not evidence of her having those qualities).
All I can really say from this is that....Nami learned a thing. And, while I acknowledge it's subjectivity, I still can't help but feel it lacks a certain oomph when I don't really see what significant changes to the story this has produced. I can agree it's thematically resonant with the Fishman arc, but it's still eh because I don't see her learning about racial hatred as that significant when she wasn't consumed by any in the first place.
Cloud Strife
Member
Cool dude. I will PM you when I have the time.
Ultimately I think these things will add up and become much more clear for you, and me, and everyone, when the series ends and we can dissect the whole thing.
Ultimately I think these things will add up and become much more clear for you, and me, and everyone, when the series ends and we can dissect the whole thing.
Maybe, but if so, I'm not going to look kindly on how long it took to get Meaningful™ development. I mean, even by your own argument, the gap between when Nami last displays hatred of Arlong and her alledged character development is 400 chapters, with another 500 before it gets done.
It reminds me of how Wheel of Time fans kept telling me "Just get past the first 9 books of the series and things will actually get good". Or the FF13 argument of "The game starts to come together after 25 hours" Like....No. Frikken hell, no. If that's the kind of time investment your asking of me before good stuff happens, then that by itself is bad.
Principate
Saint Titanfall
You've already invested the time the though? One piece has slow character development in place of that it has substantive and largely consistent world building where numerous important events occur that have absolutely nothing to do with the main cast. As far a shouenen goes world build on that sorta scale is practically non-existentant.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
I am having Pudding withdrawal
All of us have, all of us. At least MHA will soften the blow for me until the next chapter.
Maybe look at fan art of her on tumblr, just get past the hate posts.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
That probably means looking at porn.
I miss her - I miss Pudding!
But you said you prefer nice Pudding.
As far as I'm concerned this idea is still alive!
KuwabaraTheMan
Banned
I've been having Pudding withdrawal for awhile. And Oda made it worse by dangling a new chapter over our heads and then not putting her in it. 10 more days...at least...
RomanceDawn
Member
I'm with Cloud Strife on this one.
IceBringer
Banned
So chopper and that reindeer mink are gonna get it on, right?
Cindi Mayweather
Member
As a Nami stan I have nothing else to add to what Cloud said. Perfectly summarized why she's my fave.
Imperial Bishop
Banned
Anyone want to re-read all of One Piece throughout the year to commemorate the 20th anniversary?
It would be a much-needed refresher and a less-intrusive use of free time during breaks.
It would be a much-needed refresher and a less-intrusive use of free time during breaks.
There's no porn...I checked
You haven't checked hard enough. 😏
Cindi Mayweather
Member
Yes to re-read, no to porn!
Unfortunately I sold all my old volumes so I have to buy the boxsets so I have no legal way to read one piece now and I refuse to settle for those old dog shit translations.
IceBringer
Banned
I'm like 20 chapters away from finishing my re-read...
Ain't nobody got time for that.
Despite the fact I got 1400+ posts in this thread.
Is that a good thing or a bad thing, don't end on a ... and leave us hanging.
Out of curiosity, I checked. I have 116. All top-shelf quality posts, I'm sure.
I remember none of them
SolVanderlyn
Thanos acquires the fully powered Infinity Gauntlet in The Avengers: Infinity War, but loses when all the superheroes team up together to stop him.
Unpopular opinion time.
Pudding is cool.
But not that cool.
Pudding is cool.
But not that cool.
Imperial Bishop
Banned
If you have to use.."illegitimate methods" to read old chapters, it's no problem with me.
And I haven't kept up with quality translations, but I think there were multiple improved newer translations over the ones from the Scanlation Dark Ages.
Finish! The re-read it again with us.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
Such as? Don't remind me of the scanlation dark ages.
And it's a necessity. The slow character development, I mean. My old post was lost in the mud, but in any case (and in case you want to rebate me, Velk, sent a PM because people seems a bit tired of this), One Piece is limited in how character development can affect characters behaviours because of how the character interactions work.
I said before they are similar to a gag manga. In those character's personalities are fixed, and you see them fall in the same dumb mistakes for the same reasons a lot of times for humour. In One Piece isn't as exaggerated, but at the end of they day you still want Usopp to be a coward, Luffy to scream "Let's go on an adventure!" (which has kickstarted some arcs like Skypiea or Punk Hazard) or Sanji to lose his shit whenever Nami and Robin ask him to do something. Because that's one of the things people like about One Piece, and it wouldn't be the same if their personalities changed too much.
It's just how humor works in the series. Compare it to Deadpool in last year's movie. It's got a sequel. At the end of the first movie, we see that he has his girlfriend back, has killed the man that turned him into a freak and has more or less returned to his previous life. You'd think those events would turn him in a better man. But they won't. Because people didn't go to watch Deadpool looking for a redemption arc or some action scenes. They went to watch a psycho that breaks the forth wall and explains things using his amazing drawing skills. That's what people like about the character. So, no matter what happens, he'll always be a psycho that breaks the forth wall and explains things using his amazing drawing skills.
That doesn't mean that those type of characters can't suffer any changes. Their views of the world can change, they can react differently to some external elements (as we've seen with Nami). But the "core" of the characters will always remain the same. Because their roles in the crew are set in stone and you need them for the humor to work.
In any case, I won't answer to anybody using this thread, just wanted to share my view and expand Cloud views with my own opinion because I think it was an interesting idea. If anybody is planning to write any new wall of texts, PM me!
KuwabaraTheMan
Banned
Cooler than you!
If you aren't having to read low quality translations hosted on an MSN Groups page, are you really getting anything that could be called an authentic One Piece experience?
Maan, you see Luffy one-shotting Binami?
Or how about those two new Seven Arms, Bisaromi Bear and Tanjiahdo Lofulamingo?
Seriously, how do you get that from Donquixote Doflamingo
More Fun To Compute
Member
The glacial progress of One Piece can be a real problem for understanding it. I mean, if you don't remember the detail of the the events at Ohara then it goes over your head that from Robin's perspective the events in the birdcage mirror it closely. Robin just looks like she acting in a weak or deferential way when she is mirroring the actions of her hero Jaguar D Saul.
I'm already doing this though it's less about the anniversary and more because I spent 6 years away from OP and am in dire need of a refresher before I catch up. Also because I watched the entire Skypiea arc through shitty 240p youtube videos back in the stone ages so I don't think that counts. Now that I think about it I also watched parts of Water 7 before I even finished Alabasta because there was a huge hole of untranslated episodes in my language. Good times.
Bad Pudding is better than no Pudding
When I worked at the anime shop, we sold some super bootleg sets of OP, and customers would come in and be like, "did you see that fight with Clock Dell? And when Crook Bu and Chopa took on the mole lady?"
Tathanen
Get Inside Her!
Is this actually Bisoromi Bear? Is there a Fairy Tail Tanjiahdo Louflamingo?
He dive like a crazy beef
I ate the smoking nuts
He smelted the edge... on the goog
We can't break through the hymen this way!
IceBringer
Banned
Pudding just got introduced and it's super weird now that I know what she's really like.
I can confirm dressrosa is better reading it all at once instead of waiting a week for each chapter
Cindi Mayweather
Member
Eh? It's the same.
Wanted you to use that recent Pudding pic I posted.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
Disagree with this. I like character development. Nami has had really good character development and I love how Usopp has gotten more brave. I want him to become a strong, courageous man of the sea! Why would I not want him to change? Him shooting the WG flag without thinking is his best moment I think. It took real balls and that's what I want. A fully realized Usopp who isn't afraid of anything, who is strong enough to admit he's wrong (Water 7) instead of pointing fingers. At the end of the series why in the hell would I want a scared Usopp? Usopp is exempt from all of this.
Yeah, that's what I meant by limited. Usopp has become braver and stronger. But the foes he's been facing are stronger than ever before.
So you could say that Usopp is still a coward. It would be a simplification, but you could. The difference is that the challenges he's had to overcome are much harder than before the time skip. He'll always be "behind" the curve.
The difference is that now he is scared of people like the Yonkos and his Commanders or other people at similar power levels. Not a couple of B-tier underlings of Crocodile. Most OP character development outside of the characters' main arcs works in similar ways. That's why I meant by limited. You'll never have Usopp vs Kaido.
He's indeed changed, eventhough it may not be noticeable unless you pay attention to it. Deadpool could become an slightly better person too, and people wouldn't hate it as long as he is still a psycho.
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