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One Piece Manga |OT2| Four Emperors, One King, All Blue
- Thread starter Cloud Strife
- Start date
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Blackleg-sanji1
Banned
Every year is sanjis year
Well, I meant that more as a joke. Like, sometimes it can be fun, but when I say that, it's more like when I make nonserious criticism that people take seriously, like how some people thought I was seriously complaining about stuff like how do fishmen speak english underwater. But it's not like I go out of my way to be disingenuous and antagonistc just for the sake of it.
As for how you in particular read the manga...idk, in some ways, I wish I had your attitude towards it. I have that attitude toward music. It's the only art form I don't try to analyze or look into. I just listen to it and if I like it, cool, if I don't, eh. I don't try to figure out why.
I am pathologically incapable of this terms of stories though. I just can't not look into stuff.
That's kind of incredible, considering how many people are specifically trying to get their agenda across with their music. Seems like it'd be the perfect thing for you to really scrutinize.
As far as stories, I can see it with a book, or even a manga that's attempting to be serious, but anything that leans hard into the whole "power of my loyalty to my friends lets us overcome the odds like a whole crew of John Cenas" thing is hard to take seriously, which is like 90% of all shonen ever. For me that would be on-par into looking toward something like Garfield for good social commentary, and I don't want to dig that hard when it's not *really* there.
But I'm not looking for social commentary. I'm just looking for good storytelling. Even the discussion on Social commentary last page was framed in "how does this tell a better story." Stuff like analyzing character development is very much in the wheelhouse of manga, comics, tv shows, movies....I mean, I don't think it's that out there to analyze the storytelling of a story, whether it has a social message or not.
Tathanen
Get Inside Her!
If there's anything I would've thought we could all agree on, it's that the Straw Hats experience 100% of their character development in their introductory arc (we barely know Robin at first, I consider Water 7 to be an extended version of her introduction), and then are locked into an archetype that they stay in literally forever.
Sanji seems like he might be the first Straw Hat to buck the trend, depending on what happens in the rest of this arc. But I wouldn't be surprised to see him come out the back end fundamentally unchanged.
Sanji seems like he might be the first Straw Hat to buck the trend, depending on what happens in the rest of this arc. But I wouldn't be surprised to see him come out the back end fundamentally unchanged.
It's not out there, but expecting an author's content to suddenly change after decades of it not? Everyone is capable of looking at anything and coming up with a way that they would make it better if they were in charge, but at some point, you kinda either accept what something is, or you move on.
I think I mentioned it before in here, but I spent years watching wrestling and constantly bemoaning the storylines because they could be so much better and why don't they do this or that, etc. Then I realized one day, I'd been saying that it could be better for almost 20 years. And it could be better, but it isn't GOING to be, so I just quit paying attention. Some people look at that as giving up on something, but I look at it more as prioritizing and going "this thing is bullshit and I already have enough of that in my life."
Now I'm free to go pick something else apart, but really, I think I got it out of my system once I was done with wrestling. Maybe One Piece is your wrestling. :shrug:
ArgyleReptile
Banned
This was basically what I was going to post.
I don't expect Sanji to buck the trend, but he has the set up up to do so. If he lays a foot on Pudding, then yeah, however, it's quite obvious that he's not going to because of Zeff. It'd be funny if he did.
And since we are in the analysis portion of the thread cycle, I will be greatly disappointed in Oda if none of the female crew members in Big Mom's crew demonstrate hardening haki.
Man feels like almost every week that this guy has a mission in this thread. Women could be a bit more independed in One Piece here and there, but it's nothing like other Manga.
Just feels like that I see these massive posts from him since over a year..why bother with the offical thread if you could get more meaningful opinions with a thread on it's own? lol
And that is a bad thing? I am grateful that the Straw Hats even get good backstories at all and that One Piece takes it time for them.
People that want them to transform/change over the course of the manga (and many of them did in their core after the timeskip) are reading the wrong genre. Kids identify with the One Piece characters and I guess people sometimes forget that One Piece is a Shounen manga.
I mean, I've been doing this for years, and I do this for just about every story I consume. You guys just know me here because this is where you see me most often, but this isn't a "one piece" thing for me, it's a "story" thing. And while OP may get on my tits with how it does things, I have plenty of other stories that annoy me just as much, if not more, than one piece, and stories that are simply wonderful.
I just like talking about stories, man. I don't see that ever going away.
Blackleg-sanji1
Banned
Fun fact I wasn't in this thread for alil over a month or two it took two posters asking me like to Sanji wats up dude why you not in the thread to come back. It's just so much easier to just ignore the conversation on your own or use that beautiful ignore function neogaf has. You wanna talk about something else start a combo I'm game I'll engage ya
Awh yeah
I think people should stop overanalyzing Shounen stories for kids these days. I also grew up with One Piece and many other Shounen series, but I also realized that discussions ala "Why doesn't he have character development" or "Man what is this plothole?!" are pointless.
Because it's Shounen. It's for kids and kids want to identify themselves with their heroes.
It will. Things change, people change. One day you'll be like, "wait. this was trash all along, I could've used my time eating more nachos" or something.
It's glorious over here, I promise.
Tathanen
Get Inside Her!
I didn't actually say it was a good thing or bad thing. But... yeah, it's not a GREAT thing. I don't think we need to treat kids like idiots, they can handle character development. Even appreciate it. I know the "lol it's shounen" argument is thrown around here constantly, but kids aren't as stupid as ya'll like to pretend they are.
Blackleg-sanji1
Banned
I....hope not.
Stories kind of give me life. Like, maybe not one piece in particular, but general stories....FMA, ASoIaF, Kingkiller Chronicles, Gentlemen Bastards, Dresden Files, Star Wars...so many more....
No way. I'm holding onto them as tightly as I can.
It feels kind of unbelievable to me has is a discussion point that has to be had when the last chapter of MHA is literally all about Bakugou developing his relationship with Midoriya and All Might further. He's still a work in progress, but he's already made changes to how he was in his introductory arc. I don't read a lot of manga to consider myself super knowledgable, but this stuff DOES happen.
What about Merium from Hunter x Hunter. That's one of the biggest and most unique examples of character development I've seen anywhere. Is HxH not shonen? did kids heads explode from uncomprehension at witnessing his character arc?
You still can. You're just gonna change some. At least I hope so, I hope everyone does.
Cloud Strife
Member
Let me preface this by saying I have no problem with you (only saying this because the word antagonize is being thrown around). If I did, I'd have put you on an ignore list long ago...we can agree on things and disagree on things which is totally fine to me. Engaging in dialogue will only help you grow as a person.
That being said, you do seem incapable of admitting that this was not the discussion I (I think it was me) originally initiated. Full stop, I made the argument that Nami and Robin are wholly better than most Shounen girls you're gonna find in terms of character development. You can disagree with me that their character development sucks, and that's fine, but that is not the point of the discussion. They HAVE character development, and it's a lot more substantial than many shounens. I don't really care what comparisons or books or other genres you bring up. That wasn't the discussion. Again, this is about shounen females. On that note, thanks for bringing up Sasuke (not a female) and Winry so I can continue.
As for your points about Nami, you make a great comparison to Winry. Whereas I would disagree and say Nami's change of thinking doesn't have to change the plot in a drastic way in comparison. Chapter 500 is where Nami is told that the once mighty fishmen she feared for so long are auctioned off like slaves. You can see the emotion in her face, culminating in her desire to save Hachi and Camie by coming up with a plan to buy Camie and gtfo. This sets up Fishman island, an arc revolving around forgiveness, where Jinbei is forgiven by Nami for what happened with Arlong. Ultimately, it character development is more about putting characters in situations that contradict or challenge their way of thinking, and the result is not always massive in terms of what actually happens in the story (which is where you seem to disagree). You can see how this sort of experience has shaped Nami's character in both Punk Hazard and Zou where she selfishly saves the Children and Minks respectively. Could Nami have claimed to be this all righteous saviour of everyone towards the end of the series without every being confronted about her hatred of fishmen? Probably not.
Robin and Nami are far from static. I can't understand how you can't see that. Comparing their introductions to where they are now is incredible.
And for the last time, this was not the argument I was trying to make. That's a ridiculous statement.
ArgyleReptile
Banned
Not even God-Sopp made me forgive Oda for that.
And? It's not about that kids won't get complicated stories, but rather that kids identify themselves with their heroes. And the Shounen argument is valid, because One Piece is Shounen and Shounen is for kids. One Piece airs on Sunday morning like our cool cartoons back then too. If you want more complicated stories (One Piece is not a complicated story, just long, with many characters and arcs) then you could start reading stories that have more of these qualities in them.
It's not about kids being stupid.
If little Jim suddenly thinks that Sanji is not cool anymore because he hit a woman, then little Jim could be buying other figures or mangas of other heroes. This is always and will ever be an important aspect of anime/manga too.
It's the whole thing how Dragon Ball came to be, because people didn't really think that it was special when it was in it's first arc (after Dr. Slumps achivement). As soon as he and his editor realized that readers wanted to see more fights, the whole thing took off into another league. Toriyama changes that? Peoples opinions went down. Toriyama changes it back? Dragon Ball is suddenly cool for everyone again. Just an example. Which is also the reason that the whole art design in the anime changed with the transistion to Dragon Ball Z. Toriyama and his editor thought the Dragon Ball style in comparison to the manga was like Dr. Slump (and not cool enough/fighting intended style) so they changed it to be more on point for Dragon Balls intention.
You can clearly see that changing the core of characters with Dragon Ball Super. In the offical thread, most of the people complained about the japanese Goku, because the american Goku is way different the original japanese one. They are different characters. American people identify themselves with the american Goku cause they grew up with him. Now some people were confused or even blamed the series for making Goku stupid/just only want to fight opponents and not save the world.
Eh? What? Of course this is character development, but you have these exact same moments in One Piece and they are also outright shown after the timeskip too.
I give you Meruem, yeah, a villain that didn't even know who he really was or what he really wanted for himself at first.
Cloud Strife
Member
I guess it's cause if he wasn't, then his "dream" would have been technically fulfilled. I think Oda could have made his cowardice more subdued, though.
But dat Observation Haki moment...
I've talked about this before, I think.
One of the things that people like the most about One Piece is the character interaction between the crew. Especially during those moments in between arcs. In some way, they work in a similar way to characters in a gag manga.
Each character has a role that's set in stone. They interact, they clash, hilarious stuff happens. The amount of character development a Strawhat can get through the series is limited because, at the end of the day, you want Luffy to force the crew to go to the most dangerous place possible; you want Sanji to lose his shit everytime Nami asks him something. And no matter how strong Usopp becomes, you want him to be terrified when something happens. And you want to see Usopp overcome his fear and do something epic.
In the end, it's just like that. You don't enjoy One Piece. You don't think it's funny. You may not enjoy gag mangas. One Piece draws quite a lot from them. More so than other shonens. You will never get what you want, because getting what you want would alienate 90% of the fanbase.
But it's not One Piece fault. Any story is limited by multiple factors. One Piece has been going for 20 years. It can evolve, it can be expanded into something a bit more "mature", if we want to use such a term. But there are things that can't change, because otherwise you are left with something that isn't One Piece.
The difference between you and other posters is that you haven't accepted those rules. Yet you force yourself to read it. You are basically doing headbutts against a wall and complaining because it hurts. But you keep hitting the wall with your head because science.
Usopp is stronger than he's ever been. But the crew has been facing stuff that's crazier and more dangerous than ever before. I think it's been well done.
Tathanen
Get Inside Her!
I mean, there have already been a ton of Shounen character development examples posted in here. HxH, MHA, FMA. You can't just paint the whole medium with a "lol shounen" brush when there are noted examples that prove it's NOT just a fundamental shounen trait. It's just a trap that plenty of them happen to fall into.
Fair enough, I may have misread the tone of your earlier posts then.
Well, like I said, I don't read as many shonens, so I can't say anything definitive regarding it's landscape. But idk, it just seems impossible to me that no one (or few people) had more dynamic characters than OP did. That just seems statistically impossible, because I view Nami and Robin's character development as pretty meager. Other shonens have to have better character development. They just had to. It's unbelievable to me that 'most shonen female' would be written this statically.
And to clarify, I feel like the reason we are mainly talking about this in terms of Shonen females is because it sprouted from a discussion of Ochako and Nami, but this is one thing that I don't feel is a "One Piece Female" problem. None of the main cast has had significant character development. Which is why I don't see a reason not to compare it to male characters.
This is just kind of a wierd argument because you start off by saying her development doesn't have to affect the plot in a major way, while then going on to argue that she couldn't be the savior of everyone in future arcs if she had not been confronted about her regard of fishmen. Because not saving the Minks would have radically changed the outcome of the Zou arc, and as would have Nami not saving the kids. If she choose to do those things as a result of her regard of Fishment, then she affected the plot. So Nami either affects the plot or she doesn't, make your pick.
But no, I totally disagree with your reading of how Nami acts through the story. Yeah, we get close ups of her face, but since her thoughts aren't made explicit, you could read that in any number of ways, like Hachi's presence reminding her of arlong, her wondering if Hachi has some trick up his sleeve, or just straight up discomfort without actually being around a former arlong pirate, or....shit, anything. It's clear that she didn't have as immediate positive regard for him, but that's not evidence of hatred. That's the problem with not being explicit, you can infer what you want. For myself, I am not convinced at all that Nami had any hatred of fishmen in the first place, nor do I really see how her forgiving fishmen translates to her wanting to save children or minks, two entirely different things from fishmen. The fact that Nami has been exhaustively compassionate from the beginning of the series (risking her cover with arlong to try and make sure Usopp survives her stabbing him), no it's not a big leap at all that she'd want to save the kids and minks. You might have more of a case arguing that her actions on fishmen island further cemented her desire to be kind to people, but I don't believe that she'd leave the kids at all if not for that.
So, to buy that Nami had character development, you're asking me to see how she moved on from a characteristic you can't definitively prove she had, which resulted in actions I have no reason to believe she wouldn't have taken anyway. I don't see that as incredible at all.
I mean, I feel this is an unreasonable standard by which to discuss the manga.
Answer me this: when has ever any one single person on the internet complaining about something caused the artist to change it? If it has happened, I can't think of any example.
If I was writing all that I was writing with the expectations of it changing, I'd atleast be printing these things out and mailing them directly to Oda. Then atleast he'd have a chance of seeing them.
I don't expect one piece to change, but I don't see that as a reason not to talk about it.
It's okay to talk.
Really, I tried to answer your concerns before the sentence you've highlighted. I just think that you act as the "strawman" in the discussions (to a degree some posters find annoying) because you don't like One Piece.
If you liked it, you won't find as many things are annoying as you do.
If you liked it, you would be more invested in the characters and it would be easier for you to diggest or appreciate certain events.
Overall, if you liked it, the tone of the conversation would be different.
It's not about blindly accepting those things. Accepting something doesn't mean you can't critizise it. You can, eventhough it won't be in the same way as you do.
And I'm not trying to tell you to not read One Piece. It's your time, spend it however you want. I would sure have dropped the series ages ago if I were you.
I mean your not wrong about a lot of it just being a matter of different tastes, and I'd probably be received better if I liked OP while criticizing it.
But when you get down to it, I just don't see not liking something as a strong reason to drop it. I've dropped only 3 series over the last 5 years, the CW TV superhero shows and wheel of time. And I made pretty big headway into those before stopping. What happened is that I ran out of things to say about those.
That's one thing one piece does that keeps my attention. Because it knows how to pace itself, his mysteries, and build up to big events, it does new things. I may have high standards when it comes to the craft of storytelling. But I'm usually willing to stick to a series for a very long time on very little. It's just how I work.
It may be some sort of shounen stockholm syndrome. God knows I stopped enjoying Naruto and Bleach years ago and yet I still feel the need to go back and finish reading them someday just because I already wasted so much time on those stories and would like to have some sort of closure. That said, I did enjoy both those mangas at some point a long time ago so my commitment is somewhat justified. I also don't see the point of reading over 800 chapters of something you never liked to begin with.
Sibersk Esto
Banned
Character development is unnecessary to telling a good story. This is not some far-fetched attempt at standing up for One Piece. Many, many, many many stories revolve around characters who are relatively static. What a character is supposed to do is desire something and to be characterized in such a way that makes the actions they take to achieve them believable. A story is supposed to get in the way of them getting it. That's how we know who a character really is. A story must have an arc where things happen and progress.
Stop using shonen as a genre. The other works that have been brought up here are different stories than One Piece, ones that choose to facilitate character development because it's necessary to their stories. One Piece's main cast gets their development done early to give them a goal and because if these characters didn't have the will to follow their dreams, then there would be no story. One Piece doesn't have immediate, world ending threats that have to be solved, One Piece has a status quo independent of the main cast. What the crew does is uproot this status quo and force the world they live in/islands they visit to develop, which is why we leave them behind;their story is done, the strawhat's story isn't.
Stop using shonen as a genre. The other works that have been brought up here are different stories than One Piece, ones that choose to facilitate character development because it's necessary to their stories. One Piece's main cast gets their development done early to give them a goal and because if these characters didn't have the will to follow their dreams, then there would be no story. One Piece doesn't have immediate, world ending threats that have to be solved, One Piece has a status quo independent of the main cast. What the crew does is uproot this status quo and force the world they live in/islands they visit to develop, which is why we leave them behind;their story is done, the strawhat's story isn't.
I was going to argue something of similar effect. I've always felt characterization and memorable interactions/moments were more important than character development per se. While it's always nice to have all those things combined, there's nothing inherently compelling about character X going from A to B if the moments in between aren't well executed and the character himself isn't interesting. It's why I'm skeptical of certain character archetypes within anime (and by extention some japanese games) that seems manufactured to go through a very obvious and ultimately uncompelling character arc just so we can have development for the sake of it (which, in a lot of cases, feels more like the character became an entirely different person than a natural progression of themselves).
I also don't agree with measuring good character development by how different the character is at certain points in the story. Sasuke does change a lot within Naruto's narrative but I wouldn't call his development particularly nuanced or well executed.
Or good, or entertaining, or not mind numbly dumb.
Principate
Saint Titanfall
Battle Shounen is, which is characterised by the Action adventure genres. One piece actually has some id the oldest group of protagonists you'll find in a Shounen manga, which plays a great deal into it's popularity with all ages. It's analogous to Superhero comics with it's more adult set of protagonists right from the start than the average Shounen manga.
This helps a lot as it's readerbase ages who would at minimu be in their 30's if they were in the target market when the story started. Also like comic heroes, the characters remain relatively static with their origins informing the most about these characters as well as certain key events. Which helps a lot in maintaining interest with casual readers.
One pieces popularity and the way the story is structured isn't some luck of the draw it chance but plays directly into the tastes of the mainstream audience of these sorts of stories.
Cloud Strife
Member
It's cool. Come back to me when you read some and we can compare. Winry was a really good example.
Sure. Forgoing this discussion, I'd sort of agree with you. I think what the basis of our disagreement here is that you think character development needs to be a showy, impactful thing that is explicitly made to the reader. I don't think it has to be. Luffy saying "I can't be Pirate King without you" to Sanji shows me that he's grown, slightly, from being the classic charge ahead and fuck all my problems main character. The difference is that he's that, plus introspective. Do we get an explicit flashback or scene of him relating this revelation to someone or himself? No. Is it still character development? Yes.
Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not you. If I am, and you think these small instances suck for even being small instances, then I believe that's just you "disliking" One Piece for reasons I've never really been able to comprehend given your activity in this thread. All in all, we seem to disagree on a difference between character and plot development.
That's not changing the plot in any major way. Nami didn't save anyone alone, but her resolve definitely helped somewhat. What I mean to say is that Nami isn't impacting the way the plot turns to a huge degree by having these views, but we get to see her character as a result. It was also not Nami's sole choice to save the Minks. We have other crewmembers that also happen to be nice people too. And so, Nami can or can not affect the plot, but it doesn't always equate to character development. Make sense?
It doesn't have to be explicit. The way Oda draws Nami's facial expressions, how she's positioned, and the blatant "..." shows she's reflecting. And we can only assume she isn't thinking about cats and bunnies but the actual topic at hand and how it relates to her experiences. Further to this, Nami is compassionate (as you note). The difference from what happened at Arlong Park is that Nami was semi-attached to Usopp and saved him. She had no attachment to these kids, to the minks, and especially to any fishmen after what happened. That's the whole point, it's a progression. If you seriously think Nami at the beginning of this series would give a flying fuck about either of these people then I don't know what to tell you and can only surmise that you haven't been paying attention.
Read above, yo. And we haven't even gotten to Robin, who is incredibly more pronounced than Nami in my opinion.
My two cents: You come across as insufferable (no offence meant) because, while you claim that a lot of people complain on the internet, you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who actually comes back to something they dislike again and again with such elaborate posts. No one expects anyone to affect the way an author writes with what they post online, which makes your mannerisms even more curious. I'm pretty sure a while back we established that you just like arguing with people, which I'm going to go with given it's not really the story that's keeping you here. Otherwise, you do enjoy the manga and just pretend not to?
On paper, but it kind of is. You could make the argument that it's a sub-genre I think.
KuwabaraTheMan
Banned
Reiju is playing the longest game of all. She's been manipulating Sanji since he was a little kid just waiting for the perfect time to twist the knife. Believe.
I thought he's been pretty good. The time he went full-tilt coward was after Robin was turned into a toy (and, by extension, he had forgotten most of his character development because no Robin means no Enies Lobby).
And then he had that absolutely badass moment where he figured out Observation Haki, another miracle shot like the time he shot Spandam.
Cloud Strife
Member
Then Luffy will reveal he hated Sanji all along and worked with them all to get him here to watch him suffer.
Imperial Bishop
Banned
Why is it that whenever I'm away from this thread the weirdest shit happens?
Why is there Fairy Tail in my One Piece thread? 😤
Why is there Fairy Tail in my One Piece thread? 😤
Saying that it needs to happen in some big showy way vs small, imperceptible ways is a false dichonomy. Something inbetween is also possible. But the problem with Nami's character development is that I don't perceive any meaningful change.
No, because with the giant children atleast, Nami was specifically the one who convinced the rest of the crew, who were concerned with other matters, to save them. That's plot relevant. However...
I agree with you. It's obviously relevant to the situation at hand.
It is not, however, evidence of what your talking about. I provided numerous examples of what it could have been just as easily without resorting to 'cats and bunnies'. It could be uncertainty, it could be discomfort, it could be anger at hachi, anger at arlong, anger at the cruelty of the world in general. She's obviously reflecting on her experiences and you can read into that as you wish, but you're acting as if it's proof of racism or hatred and it just isn't.
Okay, I want you to prove it with actual evidence then. You've been bringing up the whole "It's obviously there, you have to have seen it" rhetoric and it's been what I sensed the antagonism from, because at this point you're saying my inattentiveness is to blame for our disagreements rather than how we read what, to my mind, is far more ambiguous.
Well, fine, luckily, there is an easy way to definitively resolve this. Just show me the scene I've been inattentive to. Because as far as I remember, Nami has never not helped those around her when she could. It always seemed to me that she was a just bleeding heart. If she hasn't saved a large group of random innocents, she didn't really seem to have an opportunity to. But apparently, there is a ruthless side of Nami I missed in two read throughs.
The only time I recall her doing anything like that is when she stole the Strawhats ship for Arlong and she was crying and whimpering while even doing that. But that feels less relevant because I can concede that development happens in their 'main arcs' so to speak, and Nami's was Arlong Park. Post that, I can't recall her committing any single act of cruelty except for gags. So if her wanting to save children and minks is a objective example of development rather than your personal read into her character, then there has to be a scene of contrast to contrast that I missed.
If you can't find more significant changes than "emotes better" and "Calls strawhats by name", I doubt we'll agree there either.
Well, I should point out this whole conversation started with me going "MHA is awesome" and it just evolved to this point. But your right, I do like debating and arguing and talking about stories. I said before, for the purposes of talking about a story, the particular story in question doesn't really matter. And while I don't like OP overall, there are parts about it I like. That's basically the gist of why I stay. And I don't think that's too horrible of a reason to do so.
What happens when Oda goes on break, CHAOS!
April if I remember correctly.
Tathanen
Get Inside Her!
It was kinda easy to predict that devil fruit user gettin knocked out and all his book monsters coming out and wreaking havoc like when the toys in Dressrosa got turned back. Instead Jinbe just lit all the little fuckers on fire. So much for that!
Worse is how Chopper got worse as the series progressed. I mean even outside of the design change after the timeskip, which I really hate, chopper looks younger than before, he got more and more like ussop, he wasn't like this in Alabasta.
But yeah Usopp is also really terrible, only Sanji disappointed me more after the TS
Agreed.
The queen!
I won't lie, some of those other Pudding pics I've seen these last few weeks had me all like "No, no, this is just all wrong" lol
But I can't make anything close to that these days, so I guess I shouldn't talk lol
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