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[Cyberpunkd]

I cannot see Apple's fan base disturbing their hair cut with a headstrap.

Laugh all you want but Apple is probably the company to make it work, then bag 99% of the profits due to uniform storefront.

 

[Cyberpunkd]

VR will not become mainstream until its 100EUR, wireless, is under 100g in weight and looks something like this:

Same with consoles that are big blocky boxes, cost $500 and you play the same games over again for the last 30 years, only graphics are changing? Look at radio, look at TV, gaming will go down this road unless it shakes things up.

 

[Ronin_7]

https://www.techspot.com/news/97106-falling-vr-headset-sales-could-spell-bad-news.html

Also apparently Facebooks VR division has lost $16 billion since the start of the year, so I think the question is for all companies and not just for them, if this VR thing is sustainable and able to be profitable, or if it's just an optional gateway to other services companies hope people will spend money on to eventually make up for losses in VR.

That loss also includes post-price increase for Quest 2, if the Quest 2 was a major cause for those losses, how much will TCL, HTC, and Sony be losing?

Yikes.

Sony shouldn't be losing much since isn't their main focus, they're just building great hardware & software & see what happens.

Meta is different, they're betting everything on this tech & losing tons of billions.

Meta verse seems doomed to failure lmao at least with current population, who knows what future kids will like but I won't be working with some fucking headset In my head 8-10H a day.

Absolute non sense, I still think VR Gaming has a place & will succeed but not the meta verse

 

[Ar¢tos]

Headsets needs to be lighter, always wireless, work as well with glasses as without, needs great battery life, and VR needs AAA studios to make the biggest IPs for VR.

"Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast."

Lewis Carroll

 

[PnCIa]

A key problem is that vr is not a social experience at its core. You have a device strapped to your face, fundamentally altering how you look and interact with the world around you.
The key strenght behind vr, immersion, presence in a virtual world etc. is therefore its biggest weakness as well. This is what Facebook is trying to overcome by creating a social experience while you are wearing that headset. They are trying everything to make those headsets paltable to humans which are social animals at heart, but tbh...I don't see it working any time soon, at least not with current devices and ideas. Also, I am quite glad it's not catching on besides a niche gaming/enthusiast crowd, because we need more social interaction, not less.

 

[Fess]

"Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast."

Lewis Carroll

Yeah, but it’s true. VR will never reach a big mainstream audience as long as you need to strap a bulky headset onto your head. And if they cost $400+ then the same audience will instantly turn around and walk away when they hear you need another $400+ box to run it. And as with any dedicated gaming platform it’ll die without AAA support.

 

[Ar¢tos]

Yeah, but it’s true. VR will never reach a big mainstream audience as long as you need to strap a bulky headset onto your head. And if they cost $400+ then the same audience will instantly turn around and walk away when they hear you need another $400+ box to run it. And as with any dedicated gaming platform it’ll die without AAA support.

Lighter and Wireless are contradictions. Lighter and Great Battery Life are contradictions.
We are limited by tech evolution and laws of physics. Not even in 50 years you can get those 3 contradictions to stop existing, unless you separate the battery from the headset and wear a 4kg battery vest to power the headset wirelessly for long gaming times.
An optional accessory that will always have fractional sales compared with the main console and AAA studios making games that require it will always be wishful thinking.
AAA games with optional VR mode is more realistic and it will still be uncommon.

 

[Majukun]

the entire year has been about a new quest incoming while the rest of the hardware released was from little known manufacturer, at outrageous prices or a bit of both

 

[sankt-Antonio]

Same with consoles that are big blocky boxes, cost $500 and you play the same games over again for the last 30 years, only graphics are changing? Look at radio, look at TV, gaming will go down this road unless it shakes things up.

Mobile gaming already dethroned console gaming, booth in amount of users and money generated. Primarily because its easily accessible on a device already owned. Its convenient gaming on a phone, if VR is more complicated than putting on big sunglasses, its never going mainstream.

 

[Crayon]

Mobile gaming already dethroned console gaming, booth in amount of users and money generated. Primarily because its easily accessible on a device already owned. Its convenient gaming on a phone, if VR is more complicated than putting on big sunglasses, its never going mainstream.

My phone is so accessible I must be crazy to spend all this money on this bulky immobile console.

 

[Fess]

Lighter and Wireless are contradictions. Lighter and Great Battery Life are contradictions.
We are limited by tech evolution and laws of physics. Not even in 50 years you can get those 3 contradictions to stop existing, unless you separate the battery from the headset and wear a 4kg battery vest to power the headset wirelessly for long gaming times.
An optional accessory that will always have fractional sales compared with the main console and AAA studios making games that require it will always be wishful thinking.
AAA games with optional VR mode is more realistic and it will still be uncommon.

Yeah, well, doesn’t change what I said. With a few rare exceptions everybody I know has gone through the same phases for all VR headsets. Excited - loving it - walking away from it. All because of some or all of the listed problems.
Is VR doomed? No I don’t think so but I don’t think any of the known headsets can change anything.

 

[squeakywheel]

There are some interesting applications of VR now that is not just gaming. I just subbed to a tennis one called Sense Arena Tennis. It's not fully accurate but pros are using it for strategy training etc. I'm hoping it helps with my tennis game as it's way cheaper than lessons lol. Technique is not my issue, I'm just dumb as a rock when I'm actually playing a match so I'm hoping for improvements. The basic graphics are good enough for immersion. I'm very curious what Apple has in store. It's probably similar to the nReal Air but at 10x the cost.

 

[M1chl]

I disagree. There's nothing that impressive on VR yet, including HLA. Almost all the games have been small little games, limited by the sheer amount of resource hog that VR is. Moreover, VR headsets are still incredibly uncomfortable and heavy, offer constricted FOV that make it seem like the wearer has goggles on and has yet to crack the refresh rate needed to make it comfortable for almost all people (240hz+) at 8k per eye.

I see the potential for VR, but it's very far off.

I disagree with that assessment : )

 

[SF Kosmo]

They want VR to succeed so bad even though this tech need an iPhone moment.

Apple's VR thing is expected this year, although all indication is it's aimed more at the Quest Pro market than the mainstream.

 

[Haint]

LOL @ OP's "Only" 10 million units in 2022. 95% of those are Quest 2's, and that's as many units as a very successful console sells in a year. Only the peak years of the most wildly successful consoles in history manage to notably outsell that figure, moving like 15 - 20 million a year. This thread may be the hardest copium thread in Neogaf history. The Wii U barely surpassed 10 million LIFETIME, while GC and Xbox barely passed 20 million LIFETIME. 10 million a year is wildly successful for a "niche" product with effectively zero notable/known IP and nothing but low budget indies carrying it.

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

There are several people in this thread not looking at context and saying that 9, heck, even 8 is better than expected and are looking at it as an achievement, when actuality if you remove Quest 2, it's lower than 2 million and I'm probably being generous there, for all the other close to 2 dozen headsets combined.

So if it wasn't for the big boom for Quest 2 in the early half of 2022, and the sales when they dropped the price back down with other deals for the holidays of Nov-Dec, I'm not even sure there would be 4 million units sold with just Quest sales in the middle of the year and post-rice increase.

It's still does show though there is an audience of around 8 million who were brought into Quest 2 or so, so there's a chance there is an audience there. Whether PSVR2, HTC and TCL's Quest 2 competitors, the Sonium and DPL headsets, and all those other announcements can do next year what headsets couldn't in 2022 remains to be seen.

But if these influx of new headsets captures something than we could see an increase next year, because if there are similar or less numbers by the end of next year, than it wouldn't be out of bounds to say "the fork has been stuck in it" as they say. I think most momentum for 2023 will be based on the performance of the headsets releasing in the first half of the year, which there are several.

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

Sony had said early on that they weren't losing money on PSVR. Remember that Sony is a hardware company first and foremost. Facebook isn't!

Losing money ad breaking even are two different things, neither means there's big margins in it, and don't forget Sony is releasing a $549 headset to what Quest 2 sold at $299 and $349 stand alone, while Sony not only costs more, but also needs another $500 device to play it. Not very comparable.

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

Not really. I doubt a retailer purchased a million headsets, only to find them all sitting on their shelves. It’s a niche product - I doubt the percentage of unsold is all that high.

No, it makes perfect sense, if most of that 9.6 million "shipments" is Quest 2, than it could be several other headsets, including newer ones months ago or from early int the year expecting to ride the wave and are sitting on shelves. This also goes for the recent holiday season when Quest 2 sales picked up and it looked like at the beginning all of VR was increasing in percentage because of holiday buyers, so companies could have shipped units during that time as well. Only for them to end up not moving what was expected.

Globally I can see 1-2 million headsets on the shelves probably few hundred thousands here in the US alone.

 

[poppabk]

There are several people in this thread not looking at context and saying that 9, heck, even 8 is better than expected and are looking at it as an achievement, when actuality if you remove Quest 2, it's lower than 2 million and I'm probably being generous there, for all the other close to 2 dozen headsets combined.

So if it wasn't for the big boom for Quest 2 in the early half of 2022, and the sales when they dropped the price back down with other deals for the holidays of Nov-Dec, I'm not even sure there would be 4 million units sold with just Quest sales in the middle of the year and post-rice increase.

It's still does show though there is an audience of around 8 million who were brought into Quest 2 or so, so there's a chance there is an audience there. Whether PSVR2, HTC and TCL's Quest 2 competitors, the Sonium and DPL headsets, and all those other announcements can do next year what headsets couldn't in 2022 remains to be seen.

But if these influx of new headsets captures something than we could see an increase next year, because if there are similar or less numbers by the end of next year, than it wouldn't be out of bounds to say "the fork has been stuck in it" as they say. I think most momentum for 2023 will be based on the performance of the headsets releasing in the first half of the year, which there are several.

If you take the Switch out then handheld sales are shit.
If handheld sales stay the same next year then I think it would be safe to say that handhelds are done.
Basically - why would you take out Quest 2 sales?

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

If you take the Switch out then handheld sales are shit.
If handheld sales stay the same next year then I think it would be safe to say that handhelds are done.

Switch is the only handheld in the industry so what you're trying to do here doesn't make sense. The other handhelds are PC's that you can carry and are not filled with games on shelves at best buy. The others are cloud gaming devices to stream games from other devices to a paperweight. None of those are handheld consoles traditionally.

 

[Andrew Evenstar]

i doubt i'll ever get one unless it turns into a must-have experience. i also get a bit sick playing in VR. I'd be interested in a AAA title like Final Fantasy , Zelda or Metroid if done right and got rave reviews

 

[poppabk]

Switch is the only handheld in the industry so what you're trying to do here doesn't make sense. The other handhelds are PC's that you can carry and are not filled with games on shelves at best buy. The others are cloud gaming devices to stream games from other devices to a paperweight. None of those are handheld consoles traditionally.

Yeah sorry what was I thinking, those giant displays for the HTC Vive and TCL err something I saw next to the Quest 2 in Best Buy just slipped my mind.

 

[BlakeofT]

I played my brother's Valve Index. Half Life Alyx was amazing! I just can't afford a $1000 accessory right now... I know there are other options, but I like the idea of holding off for a time when I can afford an Index or whatever the current best is.

 

[poppabk]

I played my brother's Valve Index. Half Life Alyx was amazing! I just can't afford a $1000 accessory right now... I know there are other options, but I like the idea of holding off for a time when I can afford an Index or whatever the current best is.

I picked up the Quest2 for a 1/4 of that last year. Higher resolution than the index, better tracking, wired or wireless, only thing lacking is FOV. The Quest2 gets discussed like it's some sub-standard budget headset when it is pretty advanced piece of kit when hooked up to a PC. And it has the standalone aspect for simpler games like Beat Saber etc.

 

[Tams]

https://www.techspot.com/news/97106-falling-vr-headset-sales-could-spell-bad-news.html

Also apparently Facebooks VR division has lost $16 billion since the start of the year, so I think the question is for all companies and not just for them, if this VR thing is sustainable and able to be profitable, or if it's just an optional gateway to other services companies hope people will spend money on to eventually make up for losses in VR.

That loss also includes post-price increase for Quest 2, if the Quest 2 was a major cause for those losses, how much will TCL, HTC, and Sony be losing?

You can't compare a company that was selling their major product at a substantial loss and trying to develop a whole VR world that is free to companies that sell much more expensive products, likely at a nice profit, who either aren't investing heavily in software for it, or are making games/experiences that are to be sold individually, not monetised after release.

HTC are the only ones who could reasonably go under by their VR efforts failing, and they seem to be doing fine for what they are.

 

[Tams]

9.6 million is a lot higher than I was expecting. Considering the reponses in this thread, what would have been a good number? 30 million?

Yeah, but that's less than the population of Tokyo and there are around 1.5 billion people in the developed world.

 

[BennyBlanco]

Quest 3 will be huge is zucc goes all in on marketing it again and the price is right. I like VR quite a bit but I never looked at it as something to replace normal gaming.

 

[crackajack]

Would I want to play more VR games if there were more quality titles, more AAA titles? absof-inglutely.
Would I want to play everything or even the majority of my games in VR? Hell no.

It adds a bit of immersion but it removes also a laid back mood. I mean even the convoluted control schemes of many games are actually already "work". Always refreshing to play games that don't even use all buttons. Always nice to get that headset off my head and relax my tensed up body again.

Quest lacks games, PS VR 2 hasn't announced many killer apps yet and the strategy going forward seems embarrassingly lackluster, again. I bought PSVR1 for an okay price for the novelty factor, but asking now more for a most probably immensly much better experience but not actually more quantity in quality of games, obviously results in a "wait and see" for me.

 

[Three]

LOL @ OP's "Only" 10 million units in 2022. 95% of those are Quest 2's, and that's as many units as a very successful console sells in a year. Only the peak years of the most wildly successful consoles in history manage to notably outsell that figure, moving like 15 - 20 million a year. This thread may be the hardest copium thread in Neogaf history. The Wii U barely surpassed 10 million LIFETIME, while GC and Xbox barely passed 20 million LIFETIME. 10 million a year is wildly successful for a "niche" product with effectively zero notable/known IP and nothing but low budget indies carrying it.

Exactly and Steamdeck has sold just over 1M in almost a year too. Don't see how 9.6M is bad for a year.

 

[PeteBull]

Consumers are lazy, don't want to play games while also burning calories, at least that is my opinion. Playing games in VR is 1000x better than with a controller in front of a TV, more immersive, and your body can be used instead of being sedentary. I think the big problem with lack of adoption more so however is not enough AAA games. If tomorrow the industry began to push hardcore native support for VR, with exclusive content, it would be a game changer. The vast majority of games out there are at best amazing tech demos for what is possible.

That would mean all those dev teams stop doing normal games and have to focus their time/funds on VR, with most of the market not caring about VR games tho- its financial suicide, so no1 really is stupid enough to do it, even valve with its half life alyx didnt move needle too much, so imagine how many devs it would take to actually move that needle.

Its total opposite catch to battle royale genre few years back: pubs/devs noticed pubg/fortnite making crazy money and having massive playerbase/influx of new players- so every1 decided to make battle royale game or at least add battle royale mode- even juggernaut like cod bend the knee/followed the cash flow with their CoD Warzone (now 2.0).

TLDR- when dev studio/publisher notices there is big cake to share- they are willing to take the risk coz if they are succesful and get their own piece of cake- its a big win(aka investments make big profit), with VR games cake is so small that even if u get all/majority of it- its not worth the risk aka time/funds spend on doing big budget game- coz even if u win u actually lose.

 

[MScarpa]

VR = 3D TV. DOA, snall niche market. Won't be popular until Apple/Nintendo make it so

 

[Keihart]

A key problem is that vr is not a social experience at its core. You have a device strapped to your face, fundamentally altering how you look and interact with the world around you.
The key strenght behind vr, immersion, presence in a virtual world etc. is therefore its biggest weakness as well. This is what Facebook is trying to overcome by creating a social experience while you are wearing that headset. They are trying everything to make those headsets paltable to humans which are social animals at heart, but tbh...I don't see it working any time soon, at least not with current devices and ideas. Also, I am quite glad it's not catching on besides a niche gaming/enthusiast crowd, because we need more social interaction, not less.

Well, you know, it's not that VR cant be social....is just that Zuck sucks and cant do what even indie devs do on metaverse.
VRchat is pretty huge.

 

[mxbison]

In my experience that's simply not happening. You control the camera with your head and that's it. Totally not worth it.

Not true. The real game changer is the depth perception and field of view.

A VR game with ps2 era shit graphics is still much more immersive than a current gen AAA game with a flat image.

It's not all about motion controls and stuff. Any type of game (except local multiplayer) could be way better on a VR set.

 

[mxbison]

VR = 3D TV

Dumb comparison.

3D TV shows the exact same thing as a normal TV, just with some added effects. VR games have plenty of possibilities that traditional games don't have.

 

[Tams]

Exactly and Steamdeck has sold just over 1M in almost a year too. Don't see how 9.6M is bad for a year.

One device that has sold alright at best (sorry, but comparatively that's so) compared to an entire market.

 

[Miles708]

Not true. The real game changer is the depth perception and field of view.

A VR game with ps2 era shit graphics is still much more immersive than a current gen AAA game with a flat image.

It's not all about motion controls and stuff. Any type of game (except local multiplayer) could be way better on a VR set.

We'll have to disagree here. While it's true you got depth, and while I admit it makes dogtag fights easier in No Man's Sky, it is very far from a game changer or a gameplay that "can only be experienced in VR".
It's a bit more immersive and a lot more tiring.
Every time I've played with PSVR i was thinking "i could be much more comfortable on the couch right now".

 

[Three]

One device that has sold alright at best (sorry, but comparatively that's so) compared to an entire market.

Most of the 9.6M is the Quest as the person I replied to pointed out. 9.6M units really isn't bad for a year. The entire handheld PC market isn't that popular either.

 

[KXVXII9X]

We'll have to disagree here. While it's true you got depth, and while I admit it makes dogtag fights easier in No Man's Sky, it is very far from a game changer or a gameplay that "can only be experienced in VR".
It's a bit more immersive and a lot more tiring.
Every time I've played with PSVR i was thinking "i could be much more comfortable on the couch right now".

Have you played any VR outside PSVR or VR where you don't have to use a standard controller with 6dof. Playing something like No Man's Sky in VR is cool, but it isn't really a VR game made from the ground up utilizing the tech to it's full potential. The magic of VR is in games like Walkabout Mini Golf and Eleven Table Tennis to where they almost feel like playing the same thing in real life. Full motion, physics, 6dof, and spatial audio at least on the Quest 2.

 

[mxbison]

We'll have to disagree here. While it's true you got depth, and while I admit it makes dogtag fights easier in No Man's Sky, it is very far from a game changer or a gameplay that "can only be experienced in VR".
It's a bit more immersive and a lot more tiring.
Every time I've played with PSVR i was thinking "i could be much more comfortable on the couch right now".

Well yeah the goal is to have a small, light, wireless pair of glasses you can just put on while laying on the couch.

It's just a far way to go.

I also barely use my VR set but the tech has so much potential. People were just way off expecting some crazy matrix VR when the first really comfortable and easy set is probably still like 10+ years away.

 

[Miles708]

Have you played any VR outside PSVR or VR where you don't have to use a standard controller with 6dof. Playing something like No Man's Sky in VR is cool, but it isn't really a VR game made from the ground up utilizing the tech to it's full potential. The magic of VR is in games like Walkabout Mini Golf and Eleven Table Tennis to where they almost feel like playing the same thing in real life. Full motion, physics, 6dof, and spatial audio at least on the Quest 2.

I didn't, actually. I've just used the most consumer-level tech and found it gimmicky and underwhelming, so that was it for me. My headset lies unused.

To be honest i feel like domestic VR is a straight-up mistake. Make VR arcades, with proper full body experiences, then it will MAYBE become something worth trying.

Well yeah the goal is to have a small, light, wireless pair of glasses you can just put on while laying on the couch.

It's just a far way to go.

I also barely use my VR set but the tech has so much potential. People were just way off expecting some crazy matrix VR when the first really comfortable and easy set is probably still like 10+ years away.

Agree.
Right now playing in VR (at least PSVR) feels like playing a racing game using only a wheel placed on your legs, without pedals or any rigid support.
It is maybe more immersive, but it's still a compromise.

 

[V1LÆM]

the most popular one is the facebook one and i ain't buying that shit.

don't have a PS5 and probably won't get one any time soon for PSVR2.

maybe if Valve release a new Index i'll grab that but still feel like VR has a long way to go.

 

[Flutta]

I don’t think VR will ever be mainstream. Game dev is becoming more expensive not many studios will risk making games for it thus AAA VR games won’t be a thing, motion sickness, not easy to carry around, isolation, tidious to put on and remove.

This thing is destined to be a niche product and that’s ok.

 

[custardbun01]

I’d get PlayStation VR if GT7 announced it supports it.

 

[01011001]

I don’t think VR will ever be mainstream. Game dev is becoming more expensive not many studios will risk making games for it thus AAA VR games won’t be a thing, motion sickness, not easy to carry around, isolation, tidious to put on and remove.

This thing is destined to be a niche product and that’s ok.

modern high end headsets are getting extremely small and lightweight.

in 5 to 10 years these things will be barely bigger or heavier than a pair of diving goggles.
smaller and lighter headset will inadvertently make it easier to carry them with you and putting them on/taking them off quickly.
since less weight also means less need for intricate headstrap mechanisms

additionally the AR/Passthrough modes in them get better each year, which means future iterations will have increasingly faster and better ways to instantly go in and out of VR without taking your headset off, which will make the isolation aspect less of an issue over time.
it will get as seemless and fast as going from looking at your TV to moving your head to look at someone next to you is.

and then there are already game concepts for local Multiplayer where one person uses the headset to play against or with people using the TV, such games have huge potential for social gatherings.

even with the state the tech is in right now, VR is already extremely compelling to a lot of people, especially thanks to the Quest 2.

and I think standalone headsets and wireless headsets will be the future for the medium in general.

 

[Trilobit]

Consumers are lazy, don't want to play games while also burning calories, at least that is my opinion. Playing games in VR is 1000x better than with a controller in front of a TV, more immersive, and your body can be used instead of being sedentary. I think the big problem with lack of adoption more so however is not enough AAA games. If tomorrow the industry began to push hardcore native support for VR, with exclusive content, it would be a game changer. The vast majority of games out there are at best amazing tech demos for what is possible.

The moment VR glasses go from this:

to this:

I might become interested. I want to have an almost full field of view to bother having something on my head for hours.

 

[CobraAB]

Zuckerberg must be sweating bulges right now.

 

[RAIDEN1]

9.6 million isn't exactly a bad number, considering many have tried in the past 30 years to bring it to the mass public, ie Nintendo, Atari and Sega

 

[poppabk]

The moment VR glasses go from this:

to this:

I might become interested. I want to have an almost full field of view to bother having something on my head for hours.

We are rapidly closing in on 120 horizontal, which is the limit of binocular vision. Full Fov for both eyes would help with immersion but is probably a lot further off and would require new tech for screens or lenses or a second set of screens and is kind of a waste as you can't really focus on it.

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

LOL @ OP's "Only" 10 million units in 2022. 95% of those are Quest 2's, and that's as many units as a very successful console sells in a year. Only the peak years of the most wildly successful consoles in history manage to notably outsell that figure, moving like 15 - 20 million a year. This thread may be the hardest copium thread in Neogaf history. The Wii U barely surpassed 10 million LIFETIME, while GC and Xbox barely passed 20 million LIFETIME. 10 million a year is wildly successful for a "niche" product with effectively zero notable/known IP and nothing but low budget indies carrying it.

It's also funny because while we have companies like Microsoft abandoning any attempts for VR on their consoles despite initially promising them, calling the market "niche", VR devices through hardware sales alone generated more revenue in 2022 than services like GamePass have generated in subscriber revenue. Let alone actual install base growth, comparatively.

Yet somehow subscription services are the future, and VR is a dead end. Make it make sense

 

[bentanchorbolt]

The moment VR glasses go from this:

to this:

I might become interested. I want to have an almost full field of view to bother having something on my head for hours.

In the mean time you’re missing out.