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Opinion: The PS4 will support 4K blu-ray
- Thread starter jeff_rigby
- Start date
- Status
He's bumping his own thread.
jeff_rigby
(Today, 05:46 AM)
Which I just bumped again fffff.
jeff_rigby
Banned
Please expand "Said Security spec" is what? Have you actually read the parts of the Mount Fuji book 8 & 9 differences I mentioned? Drive requirements were listed by me here. Officially UHD Capable takes care of all the hardware requirements, everything else is software.
The Mount Fuji Commands for Multi-media devices is a book with the industry accepted commands for drives. It covers everything needed by drive manufacturers and people using the drives and has references. The changes from book 8 prior to UHD blu-ray and book 9 which covers UHD Blu-ray is the following page. Changing the firmware in a drive to comply with book 9 makes it a UHD drive. BDXL drives can read a version 2 disk which is what UHD disks use. BD-ROM disks need a firmware update to read 33GB/layer and the reliability issues this creates. There is encryption from drive to player over the USB or eSATA which even the PS3 supports. Encryption for media on disk (AACS2) which has nothing to do with the drive, BD+ support which even the PS3 supports and several additional changes adding support for exchanges between the drive and player.
ftp://ftp.seagate.com/sff/INF-8090.PDF said:
I bumped the thread to try to explain the reason for the XB1 and PS4 UHD capable not being firmware updated January 2016 as mentioned in the two papers I now cite at the beginning of this thread. http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=206303332&postcount=664
Face it Tiger..
Banned
Jeff, I have a question.
If Sony and/or Microsoft come out and make the definitive statement, as in, clearly and unequivocally stating that the PS4 and XB1 will not, under any circumstance, ever support 4K bluray, will you admit you're wrong?
And, if that actually happens, will that prompt some level of self reflection?
If Sony and/or Microsoft come out and make the definitive statement, as in, clearly and unequivocally stating that the PS4 and XB1 will not, under any circumstance, ever support 4K bluray, will you admit you're wrong?
And, if that actually happens, will that prompt some level of self reflection?
exmachina64
Banned
The best part is that you didn't even know UHD blu-ray has been out for months.
It would be a tragedy if the PS4.5 NEO doesn't sport a 4K/UHD BD-player. Sony doesn't have one tied to it's sister TV division and they are dominant in BD-players sale, so I suspect this PS4 NEO or whatever will be their player. If priced well it'll force Samsung to drop the price over their player which has a massive mark up over cost right now, should be around the $280 range.
jeff_rigby
Banned
Microsoft and Sony have officially stated the PS4 and XB1 hardware is capable of supporting UHD Blu-ray. If they make a business decision to not support it then yes. If Sony and Microsoft announce UHD BLu-ray support will that prompt some self reflection and crow eating?
Note that House said the current cheaper PS4 will be sold alongside the more expensive NEO going forward. Games and disks will be compatible across the two systems. This should include Version 2 disks (100GB) which for game media do not require UHD DRM (AACS2 encryption). Again, a version 2 disk can already be read by BDXL drives and BD-ROM drives only require a firmware update as mentioned in 2010 by Sony-Panasonic. BD-ROM drives did not need to read 33GB/layer as there were no commercial BD-ROM disks being made with 33GB/layer till UHD.
I guess that he will find a way saying that it was a business decision of both to sell the new hardware although the old could do it.
In his world, everything he finds is a fact and he presents it as a fact but we will never be sure if anything he writes would be possible, not to say that we most likely will never see anything in real life.
And that's the point in the end: most probably he won't be proven right by Sony or MS because the old console revisions won't support uhd bluray but that also doesn't mean he was wrong. Other than devs saying that he is wrong (and they should know about the technical side of things) we will never know for sure.
jeff_rigby
Banned
LOL Adam, you want to answer him.
Trojita said:
jeff_rigby said:
That would be telling if they state the PS4 can play them but in this thread probably dismissed as an error by the producer until confirmed.Trojita said:
exmachina64
Banned
Who is Adam? What are you even talking about?
jeff_rigby
Banned
Adam Tyner and he and I had discussions IN THIS THREAD on when UHD Blu-ray titles and players were being released.
Adam Tyner
Member
Sony (well, Masayasu Ito, the executive VP who leads the PlayStation hardware group) already has said just that, at least for the launch PS4. He says it's possible with a hardware revision. Jeff rejects his assertions.
He knows it's out. However, last year, he insisted that Ultra HD Blu-ray players were already on the market when I talked about the delay to early 2016. For someone who prides himself on being plugged in and unearthing white papers, it's puzzling that something written up in so many articles escaped him for weeks.
There have been no direct statements affirming support since approx. 2.5 years prior to the launch of the format. The vague "UHD capable" statement in the EU document you cite (submitted by a consultancy group on behalf of Sony/Microsoft/Nintendo) says nothing about Ultra HD Blu-ray support being part of a firmware update for the launch consoles. I know you're going to say, "well, if there's any sort of streaming UHD support, it's the same stack as yadda yadda yadda", but that's not the same thing as officially stating that the launch consoles are capable of UHD BD support.
How does that expression go? If all you have is a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail? In this case, everything looks like "game consoles are the media hubs of the connected home".
jeff_rigby
Banned
I reject his assertions because 1) All BD-ROM drives can read 3 layers and he said the drive in the PS4 can't. 2) There is no HEVC codec in the PS4, which the official UHD Capable in two different letters by two different groups with representatives from Sony and Microsoft makes a lie.
I do have a life and there is more to what's coming than blu-ray players and disks
For people reading this, 2.5 years ago at the launch of the consoles a Microsoft VP stated the XB1 has the hardware to support UHD blu-ray and Sony representatives said the PS4 has a HDMI2 port and supports 4k media. Yes nothing since then till Feb of this year when the April 2015 letter was posted confirming the PS4 and XB1 are UHD Capable.
Coming with UHD media support are open standards based on HTML5 for media and a common DRM for Vidpath. These standards will be used for UHD BLu-ray, ATSC 3.0 Antenna TV and for IPTV streaming like Playstation Vue....yadda yadda yadda You have to read and understand the papers I cite or it sounds like yadda yadda yadda.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Ohhh, care to elaborate, please?
Adam Tyner
Member
I just think it's funny that you say things like:
...when you overlook obvious, well-publicized things in favor of whatever you're completely pulling out of the air, such as UHD BD players being released last September with the first round of software coming that October. Nothing from anyone at any point said anything about a release last Sept./Oct. That is entirely an invention of yours; "before Christmas" was as detailed as the launch was ever said to be. This wasn't even about when the format would launch; you insisted that it already had launched last Fall and demanded proof that it had not, which is...baffling. How "dialed in" are you?
Does Ito saying such things give you great hope that an Ultra HD Blu-ray firmware update is imminent? If he's mistaken but is dead certain it's not a road worth going down, the end result is the same as if the console were not capable at all. If Sony doesn't feel that it's worth the time/effort to write such an update, assuming it even is possible, the end result remains "no UHD BD for the launch PS4". If Sony could perform this update with no trouble but wants to reserve the capability for the Neo -- as a marketing bullet point -- the end result remains "no UHD BD for the launch PS4". What about the likelihood of future models having dedicated hardware for HEVC decoding, and Sony doesn't want to create and support a separate solution for the launch models? Many things that are technically possible never come to pass. When you say things like:
Ugh. You fundamentally cannot distinguish between fact and speculation.
This is why saying "will" in the subject line is such a poor idea, and I do not understand why the mods let it pass.
jeff_rigby
Banned
Facts;
1) The PS4 and XB1 are UHD Capable
2) A BD-ROM drive can be firmware updated to support UHD Disks
3) Sony has a licence for ALL forms of UHD Blu-ray player; Embedded, Game console, PC and Movie Player without drive.
#3 confirms what we all know; Sony wants as many UHD players on the market as possible as they make money when disks are sold. Sony writing a UHD Blu-ray PC application should make this doubly clear. Microsoft is also supporting this because it will sell PCs and XB1s streaming UHD media in the home using Playready ND from the digital bridge. (Playready ND is mentioned in several UHD Blu-ray digital bridge proposals)
Since the PS4 and XB1 can support UHD Blu-ray after a firmware update you must assume some business reason for not supporting pulling the trigger and updating to support UHD Blu-ray. Please explain as I can't find or think of any possible reason.
Calling for a MOD to edit the title or lock this thread presupposes I am wrong without evidence. It is your responsibility to read the cites and understand them if you wish to argue I am not correct about the PS4 and XB1 hardware being able to support UHD Blu-ray. I told you I made the title/header for this thread; The PS4 will support 4K blu-ray in response to articles stating the launch consoles will not support UHD BLu-ray and the articled did so without evidence with major misunderstandings of what was needed and available at the time to support UHD.
This ignorance continues to this day with articles assuming only NEO can support 4K media. Remember there is a 2015 version of the PS4 where Southbridge was refreshed and articles are assuming a 2013 and 2015 PS4 can't support UHD Blu-ray....how stupid is that.
Current HDMI supports 4K output. In fact PS4 can already output in 4K via the photo viewer.
Chû Totoro
Member
This thread is something special. I can't explain it but maybe jeff and mods can because I'm lost.
Is it now just a game (or running joke) ?
Is it now just a game (or running joke) ?
Except people have. And you just ignore/dismiss them. There is literally no arguing with you. You are essentially talking down to us hoping we will one day understand your great wisdom.
You seem like you are going to fight this battle till your grave, and quite frankly it's just depressing. People manage to cop bans for spreading false rumors when "leaks" turn out not to be true. I have to wonder how long you're going to dodge the bullet with this "PS4 will support Bluray" thing if it doesn't pan out to be true.
Adam Tyner
Member
How large do you think the potential market is for:
1) People who will buy an Ultra HD Blu-ray disc
2) Don't actually want to watch the movie on their Ultra HD Blu-ray disc player
3) Are willing to pay an additional fee to stream that content to another device instead
I posted several in the post above. It's only a few sentences long and is no great time commitment. If I call it a white paper instead of a message board post, then would you bother to read it?
"Able to support" is not the primary point of contention, although you do have a tendency to rely on years-old quotes and that vague EU power timeline you're twisting to meet your ends, and those aren't nearly as compelling as you're making them out to be.
There is insufficient evidence to state that the launch PS4 will have support. You're even more guilty of spreading misinformation than anyone. You're even boldly proclaiming specific dates that the firmware update will launch, failing to present your speculation for what it is.
TheOnlyOneHeEverFeared
Member
I got super excited when I read the thread title cos I thought they'd confirmed 4K blu ray for PS4K then I realised whose thread this is.
jeff_rigby
Banned
Sony has yet to launch a UHD blu-ray player or firmware update a console or release a PC application for UHD Blu-ray. There is NO PC application for a UHD Blu-ray player by anyone. The same is true for UHD APPs or using HEVC to stream Netflix @ 1080P resolution which we also know is coming. Vidipath is still on hold also, Khronos published OpenVX 1.0 Oct 2014 yet it's still not being used by AMD and Nividia or the Game Consoles.How large do you think the potential market is for:
1) People who will buy an Ultra HD Blu-ray disc
2) Don't actually want to watch the movie on their Ultra HD Blu-ray disc player
3) Are willing to pay an additional fee to stream that content to another device instead
I posted several in the post above. It's only a few sentences long and is no great time commitment. If I call it a white paper instead of a message board post, then would you bother to read it?
"Able to support" is not the primary point of contention, although you do have a tendency to rely on years-old quotes and that vague EU power timeline you're twisting to meet your ends, and those aren't nearly as compelling as you're making them out to be.
There is insufficient evidence to state that the launch PS4 will have support. You're even more guilty of spreading misinformation than anyone. You're even boldly proclaiming specific dates that the firmware update will launch, failing to present your speculation for what it is.
Well guess what, OpenVX in AMD APUs and dGPUs use the same Xtensa accelerators that HEVC is used for and on the same ARM trustzone bus that is the Media TEE. Coincidence that Game consoles and PCs still don't have support for UHD and drivers for OpenVX were just released in the last few months and are still not at 1.1.
HTML5 <video> EME MSE is not considered finished and ALL UHD media uses it. It's supposed to be done this September. Firmware 4.0 should arrive in October and bring with it OpenVX, UHD Media, Vidipath, ooVoo, smaller Apps with full screen power mode and more...much of it APIs provided by Southbridge as the ARM media TEE.
VR and NEO will be released after a firmware update for the PS4 and Likely the PS3 and Vita. VR (for OpenVX) and NEO will use the same Southbridge as ARM SoC scheme for Media that the last two PS4 refreshes use.
What's the exact ARM (actual part number I can look at a data sheet for) that's in the launch PS4? It may have a TEE, but I'm not certain it's fast enough to encrypt raw 4K video at HDCP 2.2 requirements. Sure, it might use hardware acceleration, but I believe the theory here is that since it was made before HDCP 2.2 was finalized, it can be updated to run different algorithms in software.
request a mod to change the title
Jeff Rigby - I think the PS4 secretly supports 4K Blu-ray
Bear Force One
Banned
This has become the second GPU in the power supply of PS4.
half a moon
Banned
lol same.
It was since beginning.
The Last Wizard
Member
Why would you bump this-_-
BriareosGAF
Member
Jeff is sort of the patron saint for weird hardware speculation, mostly because he seems to specialize on more irrelevant bits that make you go "why is this guy so obsessed with this?". He's a bit of a meme for those of us who actually work on the hardware before release--I have actually asked questions in discussion with hardware folks just because I knew some people there would realize we were riffing on this thread.
jeff_rigby
Banned
HDCP2.2 was developed in 2012 so it could be in the PS4 ARM TEE. What was waiting was the mapping to the HDMI port which concerned the pass through of negotiation from the HDMI chip and the routines to determine propagation delay and the number of HDMI repeaters that are connected to the HDMI port. That was published Feb 2013 and both Panasonic and Sony were part of the HDMI committee that created HDMI and HDMI 2. The PS4 has a custom HDMI chip that is not listed in the Panasonic website as a HDMI 1.4 chip.
The HDCP 2.2 routine is used for Miracast, HDMI 2 multi-cast over LAN, can be used for DTCP-IP and HDMI. It's all about negotiation between transmitter and receiver and keys that generate a sequence of logic 0's & 1s that are applied to the video stream 0's and 1's in a recoverable manor provided both tranmitter and receiver are using the same keys. It's also about routines that determine hops through switches and length of wires or propagation delay to insure the receiver is still in the home. DTCP-IP and HDMI each have their own rules but use the same routines.
You are overthinking the encryption, it's not like a HEVC codec and does not perform a complex algorithm on the data stream, just a logical operation like invert only when the "randomly generated" stream is high. As long as the receiver is keyed using the same and is creating the same random number stream to key an inverter applied to the video stream, the video is recoverable. This is an oversimplified explanation not an actual description of the process as it probably includes a method to take a random stream at a slower clock and apply it to the faster video stream.
The "random" stream is anything but random but appears to be random unless you have the key that was used with the AES 128 block.
I have no way of knowing which ARM family is in Southbridge but Cerney did state that Southbridge contains a ARM Trustzone processor when he also stated it's there for EU power regulations (Network Standby) and background download. ARM Trustzone has been implemented in several ARM processors but they always are on a AXI bus of which there are now several versions. I personally do not see the reason for the secrecy...he could have stated the ARM trustzone is used for a Trusted boot, HDCP 2.2 and next generation video which uses HTML5 <video> EME MSE. Putting Playready and WMDRM in the PS4 intellectual notice tells us the same as Playready 3 requires HDCP 2.2.
Afrowhitey
Neo Member
Darktalon
Member
The plot thickens! It is true that HDR is not a part of HDMI 1.4 specs, but bandwidth seems to be the primary issue. So 1080p60fps HDR bandwidth is probably less than 4k @ 24, which 1.4 does.....
I'd love to see a Digital Foundry article about exactly what we have in our original PS4's.
I'd love to see a Digital Foundry article about exactly what we have in our original PS4's.
Yeah, there was a thread about that article. It isn't evidence of anything as it's just the author regurgitating Jeff's claims, down to even ignoring the fact that both HDR and 4K were pillars of the presentation and yet House announced retroactive support for the former and only the former. I mean, it stands to reason that if 4K output support were coming, it would have also been announced, and since it wasn't, the notion that it is coming doesn't have much of a basis in reality. On a related note, even Jeff himself has given up on the X1 and PS4 receiving UHD BD support.
Jeff hasn't been wrong about absolutely everything (HDR support, most notably, although it's a little too early to point to it as evidence that all PS4s have HDMI 2.0 chips), but from where I'm standing, the PS4 receiving 4K output support is about as likely as it receiving UHD BD support.
jeff_rigby
Banned
Rehash of Page 1 of this thread; the picture of the PS4 HDMI chip is all about HDCP (1.4 and 2.2) taking place in the PS4 Media TEE which I believe is Southbridge. The reason there were no HDMI 2 chips available at launch was HDCP 2.2 required quite alot of hardware support and the standard was finished with mapping HDCP 2.2 to HDMI early 2013 which is too late to create a fixed function chip for assembly in a PS4 shipping Nov 2013. The PS4 has a Custom Panasonic HDMI chip that passes negotiation to the Media TEE where HDCP 1.4 and 2.2 are supported. Additionally it only has to support passing HDR negotiation and timing for all the HDMI 2 required clocks/resolution/FPS which were known and were easy to implement. This is the PS4 can play 4K media part we all knew about and supported a few firmware updates ago for non commercial media (Pictures and home movies).
I mentioned in later threads that HDR support for media is required to take place in the media TEE and is a very low bandwidth addition to Standard Dynamic Range in that TEE. Games have to add HDR to the video in the GPU which takes a small amount of additional processing. And yes HDR for games does not require HDCP 2.2 but it does require the HDMI 2.0a negotiation. I'm guessing Sony chose to not support HDR till they implemented HDMI 2.0a and HDCP 2.2.
So PS4 firmware 4 implements HDCP 2.2 which requires TMP 2.0 standards for the cryptography accelerators and keys in the Media TEE. TMP 2.0 is not backwardly compatible so all routines that use the cryptography hardware must be updated at the same time or implemented at the same time. TMP 2.0 was published Oct 2014 and Microsoft implemented it in Windows 10 August 2, 2016 and a month later Sony implemented it with firmware 4.0. Sony tried to say the PS4 would not support DLNA at launch in 2013 and due to an outcry they released a Media/DLNA player. The reason for the No DLNA announcement was they knew it would be 3 years till HDCP 2.2 would be supported and announced features with that long a wait would create issues.
The current PS4 media/DLNA Player has no DRM support and is a temporary player waiting on HTML 5 <video> MSE EME which was waiting on HDCP 2.2 which is now in the PS4 since it supports HDCP 2.2 for HDMI 2.0a. This means that all features waiting on this can be implemented any time now, they are:
Background Firmware updates without using the APU.
HDMI 2.0a
Vidipath
Playready (Vidipath requires Playready and Playready protected DTCP-IP for DLNA )
Miracast
HTML5 <video> MSE EME (The DRM parts)
IPTV Apps
ooVoo or some video chat (by default video chat is encrypted)
All the APPs will be rewritten to use the media TEE which requires Codec, Player, encryption routines and HDR take place in that TEE. The same routines will be used by all IPTV apps. Apps will be "Mono commercial apps" in the PS4 as Sony has a Mono Just In Time (JIT) compiler built into the PS4 OS and in OS core dumps is called Mono Commercial APP support. Mono will call APIs for the Media TEE and Browser native libraries. APPs will dramatically shrink in size.
Vidpath is always associated with Miracast and Vidipath has levels of support but all require low power and Network standby DLNA/Miracast support where a Phone can control the PS4 either as a DLNA or Miracast renderer/Player.
1080P Media with HDR:
Adam guarantees the PS4 will have HEVC support for HD media just like the 2013 XB1 and I think that will be a minimum. Leaked UHD blu-ray PDFs mention HDR for HD media on 4K TVs with HDMI 2.0A ports and a possible future 1080P TV with support for HDR which would still require HDCP 2.2a negotiation.
AACS 2.0 CR proposal about new Blu-ray content for current HDTV
In the picture/flow chart is a FHDTV which I take to mean Future HDTV
So we can take from this that 1080P HDR is coming from at least streaming IPTV services like Netflix for platforms that have at least HEVC profile 10 for HD media and a HDMI 2.0a port because of the required HDR negotiation. HDCP 2.2 would be required in the media TEE for Playready DRM and for the HDMI port.
The XB1 will support Playready and Vidipath also which means it has HDCP 2.2 in it's TEE. The XB1 also has support for a HEVC HD codec which can be used to reduce the bandwidth used for HD media without HDR. In PCs and I think the XB1, HDCP (1.4 and 2.2) are also required to take place in the TEE (in the XB1 that is in the APU) unless memory traces/pins and PCIe traces from the APU to the Southbridge chip and HDMI chip are hidden. If this is the case then the HDMI port on the XB1 just needs to support the same as the PS4 and it can also support HD HDR and HDCP 2.0a negotiation.
HEVC for HD media without HEVC accelerators requires 1.5 times the processing power h.264 requires for real time video, this is the minimum I think is supported and Adam guarantees is supported. HEVC for UHD media requires 4 times the processing power. After Microsoft published the standards for 5 HEVC accelerators late 2013, any HEVC implementation using those accelerators would require much less processing power. The PS4 southbridge was updated in the 2015 PS4 and it would contain the HEVC codec. To support all PS4s being UHD capable, since all PS4s have a HDMI 2.0a port, would require only an extra expense of about $10 for the 2013 PS4 to support HEVC for UHD media. The XB1 APU contains the Media TEE and was not updated till the 2016 XB1 slim.
HDR for 1080P or using HEVC HD codecs and/or both is a recognition that the Internet can not properly support UHD media. This makes a lie out of Sony saying they think UHD streaming is the future (at least in the near term) and they are not supporting UHD Blu-ray for this reason.
UHD BD-ROM 4 Drive, is it a firmware updated modern BD-ROM 3 drive?
This is a picture from the BDA of the manuals for ROM4. The size of the manuals gives us an idea of the changes required.
Basic Format specs ==> 10 or so pages?
File System Specs ==> one page?
Audio Visual basic specs ==> is the player right, 100's of pages?
None of the above have to be a hardware change.
There are two patents now, one from 2010 and one from 2012 about keeping older BD-ROM drives from reading Version 2 disks because it may not read the disk reliably. The Mount Fuji book describes the differences from BD-ROM 3 to BD-ROM 4 and one of the differences is the drive is put into a UHD mode where the functions for the registers in the drive are moved around which makes them different from what a HD player expects. This keeps a HD Blu-ray player from reading a UHD disk which might be on a Version 2 disk. This implements the purpose of the 2010 and 2012 patents and helps keeps a cracked HD player from being able to access UHD media.
There are multiple articles now that essentially say the same, at some point/year a modern blu-ray drive should be able to be firmware updated to support UHD blu-ray. 2008 drives could support 4 or more layers reliably. Reduced mark length introduced in the 2010 BD-R whitepaper requires slightly more DSP performance for iMLSE that faster drives must have. Faster drive requires a faster more powerful DSP chip. An older drive without firmware update to support iMLSE can not reliably read a Version 2 disk.
Nostremitus
Member
Thread title change got me. I was excited when I first clicked it, thought there was a new announcement and Sony had made a last minute change or something...
It wont support 4K-Blu-Ray
It will, the prophet jeff_rigby has foretold!
only mods can change titles >_>! if you want to know who did it, just write a PM to modbot, it'll tell you.
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