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[Matt]

Jeff, dude, just...just stop it.

I really appreciate your research abilities, but your conclusions reach almost conspiratorial levels. And most of it in this thread is just flat out wrong.

Just stop with these predictions. Or don't if making them really gives you joy, but maybe learn to present them as (and think of them as) fun theories, not statements of fact.

 

[jeff_rigby]

1. I'd make a wild guess that this "part" is about 90% of efficiency improvement.
2. There is no "using the h/w properly", if a h/w downclock under the load then the h/w isn't designed properly.
3. All CUs are used by all PS4 s/w. Frequencies are fixed for PS4's GPU.


A bunch of gibberish. Color compression isn't the only way to optimize memory access. Registers can't be in the cache, neither they are on any CPU in existence. "Polaris needs less memory bandwidth but requires very fast memory." Wait, what? There will most definitely be APUs with Polaris GPUs in them using DDR3 let alone GDDR5. You can have network standby with GDDR5, it will consume more energy than a DDR3 setup would but it'll still be a one digit number - anything below 25W should be rather trivial to cool with a passive sink which is the only technical reasoning behind having a small standby power consumption. Upgrading anything to Polaris wholly depends on Polaris availability which depends on 14LPE process, nothing in either PS4 or XBO precludes anyone from using Polaris designs in new consoles.

Network standby has a EU and Energy star mandate of 500mw and GDDR5 has a min power of 1-2 watts as you said. You can't use GDDR5 in the "Small APU" or the XB1 large APU, the only one of it's kind.

Yeah, you'll have 100x performance loss this way but sure, you can have it. Registers are on chip for a reason, optimizing the register pressure is one of key performance optimizations of any GPU code. Pushing them straight into GDDR5 won't be any different from what you're suggesting. New production process allow to expand them - which is what NV is doing in Pascal - but it is basically unavoidable to have them on chip to get any kind of good performance. In any case data would be pushed into L1 and L2 caches before it will get into main memory.

My bad, there are still page tables and register caches but non-HSA uses memory copies and HSA uses pointers (see below cite) which is what I was trying to get across..

Rus, this is not my opinion but from technical papers describing Future AMD GPUs which are evolving to use HBM with GDDR5 a intermediate step. Everything I have posted in my above thread is accurate except for naming; registers and GPU register cache for simplicity.

In CPUs Intel using L3 cache on chip is again needed because DDR3 and DDR4 are so slow compared to on chip cache. AMD CPUs suffered from memory starvation without large L3s but were cheaper. How CPUs and GPUs access HBM will change from how they now access DDR3 and DDR4.

AMD APUs do not have GDDR5 or HBM at this time so they can not use what Polaris for GDDR5 can use.

people who work at Oculus have mentioned how preemption context switching, a very important feature especially in VR scenarios, can be really bad on NVIDIA cards.

I’ve been told by folks at Oculus that the preemption context switching is, and this is prior to the Skylake gen 8 architecture which has better preemption, but the best preemption context switching was with AMD by far. Intel was pretty good, and NVIDIA was possibly catastrophic.

The real issue is, if you have a shader running, a graphics shader, you need to let it finish. And it could take you a long time, it could take you over 16ms.

The most critical hardware element of the HSA solution is a Shared Coherent Virtual Memory (SCVM) architecture The SCVM includes a single virtual memory accessed by all the compute units, allowing them to use the same data through the same addresses. The SCVM also includes shared page tables that allow pointers to the memory to be passed between compute units. Together, the shared memory and page tables eliminate the copying of memory content from one memory subsystem to another, flushing of the memory content to ensure coherency of the data, and the complex memory mapping required by the programmer on legacy heterogeneous systems. Because non-HSA accelerators often have smaller memory sizes than the system main memory, using a single memory architecture also eliminates the challenges of managing frequent memory transfers between memory subsystems of varying sizes and the overhead associated with the additional memory transfers. Note that compute units may still have banks of dedicated physical memory, but all shared data must use the shared virtual memory.

*** SEE PAGE 4 CHART non-HSA uses memory copies and HSA uses memory pointers. ***

Your point that they still use internal cache is accurate, they do not use GDDR5 as cache but they do use memory pointers rather than ALWAYS copying to and from internal page tables or caches. When they do this and how is probably determined by the OS and/or compiler which is why running a Launch PS4 game on NEO can't take advantage of the full HSA context switching that is more efficient.

 

[dr_rus]

Network standby has a EU and Energy star mandate of 500mw and GDDR5 has a min power of 1-2 watts as you said. You can't use GDDR5 in the "Small APU" or the XB1 large APU, the only one of it's kind.

What will happen if you won't have that "star" certification? Probably nothing but a lack of a badge on the box?

My bad, there are still page tables and register caches but non-HSA uses memory copies and HSA uses pointers (see below cite) which is what I was trying to get across..

Rus, this is not my opinion but from technical papers describing Future AMD GPUs which are evolving to use HBM with GDDR5 a intermediate step. Everything I have posted in my above thread is accurate except for naming; registers and GPU register cache for simplicity.

In CPUs Intel using L3 cache on chip is again needed because DDR3 and DDR4 are so slow compared to on chip cache. AMD CPUs suffered from memory starvation without large L3s but were cheaper. How CPUs and GPUs access HBM will change from how they now access DDR3 and DDR4.

AMD APUs do not have GDDR5 or HBM at this time so they can not use what Polaris for GDDR5 can use.



Your point that they still use internal cache is accurate, they do not use GDDR5 as cache but they do use memory pointers rather than ALWAYS copying to and from internal page tables or caches. When they do this and how is probably determined by the OS and/or compiler which is why running a Launch PS4 game on NEO can't take advantage of the full HSA context switching that is more efficient.

I'm not sure what you mean here as HSA is about a CPU-GPU interoperation where CPU and GPU are running on the same dataset with guaranteed cache coherency and minimal copy operations happening. From a GPU only point of view HSA doesn't change anything as software doesn't handle GPU registers or cache evictions - this is done transparently by the h/w.

Type of memory used doesn't mean anything as logically it's all the same - registers-cache-memory. The only thing which is changing with different memory types is the latency of data fetch from memory. CPUs need L3 because their typical workload is much more chaotic and unpredictable than that of GPU, they tend to fetch smaller chunks of data in a random pattern. GPUs can do away with less caching because it is possible to predict what data will be needed when in a GPU stream processing. Beyond that there is no difference between DDR3, GDDR5, HBM or anything else for either CPU or GPU but the latency of fetch/load which is smaller on faster memory but that latency will still be some orders of magnitude higher than L2/L3 cache access even with HBM2. So nothing really changes with HBM in overall memory situation. HBM2 isn't even that much faster than GDDR5X.

 

[jeff_rigby]

What will happen if you won't have that "star" certification? Probably nothing but a lack of a badge on the box?

For the US without an Energystar certificate you can't sell a computer to the US government and California has similar restrictions. The EU has mandates that are or will be LAW. This was why at Launch Sony said the Southbridge second custom chip was for EU standby power requirements. In this thread there are those who think that is all Southbridge does. The XB1 has power islands and at Launch touted how low standby power was compared to full on game mode. Still coming this October are Media power modes.

I'm not sure what you mean here as HSA is about a CPU-GPU interoperation where CPU and GPU are running on the same dataset with guaranteed cache coherency and minimal copy operations happening. From a GPU only point of view HSA doesn't change anything as software doesn't handle GPU registers or cache evictions - this is done transparently by the h/w.

Type of memory used doesn't mean anything as logically it's all the same - registers-cache-memory. The only thing which is changing with different memory types is the latency of data fetch from memory. CPUs need L3 because their typical workload is much more chaotic and unpredictable than that of GPU, they tend to fetch smaller chunks of data in a random pattern. GPUs can do away with less caching because it is possible to predict what data will be needed when in a GPU stream processing. Beyond that there is no difference between DDR3, GDDR5, HBM or anything else for either CPU or GPU but the latency of fetch/load which is smaller on faster memory but that latency will still be some orders of magnitude higher than L2/L3 cache access even with HBM2. So nothing really changes with HBM in overall memory situation. HBM2 isn't even that much faster than GDDR5X.

Using the GPU as a CPU brings CPU issues. GPU Wavefront programming is a way to reduce the load fetch times for GPUs but that breaks when you are also trying to use the GPU as a CPU. The weak Jaguar is going to be more and more helped by GPGPU.

The type and speed of memory has an impact on the design. Simply put, with slower memory you need larger faster cache. With extremely fast next generation memory you may not need cache at all. GDDR5, GDDR5(X), HMB2, HBM3 then next generation memory do make a difference in CPU and GPU designs.

If you are correct about the hardware handling the efficiencies, why do PS4 games need to be rewritten to run more efficently on a NEO GPU. The Compiler (for Game Consoles written to the metal) determines how a game will work on a GPU as much or more so than the OS. The HSAIL goal is to abstract the hardware so that in the future the Compiler does not have to be written for a particular hardware.

 

[dr_rus]

For the US without an Energystar certificate you can't sell a computer to the US government and California has similar restrictions. The EU has mandates that are or will be LAW. This was why at Launch Sony said the Southbridge second custom chip was for EU standby power requirements. In this thread there are those who think that is all Southbridge does. The XB1 has power islands and at Launch touted how low standby power was compared to full on game mode. Still coming this October are Media power modes.

Well, AFAIK neither PS4 nor XBO meets the requirement of 500mW in standby so... it doesn't matter?

Using the GPU as a CPU brings CPU issues. GPU Wavefront programming is a way to reduce the load fetch times for GPUs but that breaks when you are also trying to use the GPU as a CPU. The weak Jaguar is going to be more and more helped by GPGPU.

The type and speed of memory has an impact on the design. Simply put, with slower memory you need larger faster cache. With extremely fast next generation memory you may not need cache at all. GDDR5, GDDR5(X), HMB2, HBM3 then next generation memory do make a difference in CPU and GPU designs.

If you are correct about the hardware handling the efficiencies, why do PS4 games need to be rewritten to run more efficently on a NEO GPU. The Compiler (for Game Consoles written to the metal) determines how a game will work on a GPU as much or more so than the OS. The HSAIL goal is to abstract the hardware so that in the future the Compiler does not have to be written for a particular hardware.

"Wavefront programming" is just how GPUs are programmed, it's not a way anywhere. GPUs are massively parallel and run one instruction on a big amount of data per clock simultaneously - hence why such instruction dispatches are called "wavefronts" by AMD or "warps" by NV.

You can't use GPU for all CPU tasks as this is simply inefficient and no amount of HSA will ever help you here. You can offload certain CPU tasks which are well suited for a massively parallel processing to the GPU though but I'm not sure how HSA is helping here beyond the obvious simplification of the memory model and less data traffic happening between memory pools/partitions. The overhead of a combined CPU+GPU processing of the same data is definitely less in a HSA system but it's not like this is impossible to perform without HSA as any console h/w prior to current generation can illustrate.

Yeah, sure, the cache size depends on the memory speed somewhat but it is more dependent on the GPU architecture and the production process the GPU is made upon. L2 cache sizes are the same for all Maxwell chips for example, be it a 980Ti with 336GB/s of bandwidth or 950 with 106GB/s of bandwidth. That size was obviously decided upon based on the types of memory and bus widths these chips will work with but that's as far as memory influence go here.

I don't know how PS4 GPU code is written so I can't say much about this. Is it compiled from high level language for the h/w or is it compiled into some intermediate format which then is being interpreted by PS4's OS/GPU driver? I don't know. I would presume it's the latter as that'd make much more sense for an ability to keep the code portable between different h/w generations but you have to sign the NDA to get the SDK access to know this stuff.

 

[LOLCats]

The Oracle, Jeff Rigby

 

[jeff_rigby]

Well, AFAIK neither PS4 nor XBO meets the requirement of 500mW in standby so... it doesn't matter?

Energy Efficiency of Games Consoles

Self-Regulatory Initiative to further improve the energy efficiency of Games Consoles
Version 1.0 – 22 April 2015 Sony Computer Entertainment Inc. Microsoft Corporation
Nintendo Co., Ltd. under the terms of EU Directive 2009/125/EC on Energy Related Products,

A couple of charts give us a clue on when a UHD Game Console is coming.

Second to the last page, Estimated EU electricity saving for Ultra High Definition
Games Consoles (TWh) they were released in 2013.

Page 10 Power Cap Requirements for Games Consoles

Jan 2014 and the exact same power requirements for Navigation mode for HD and UHD game consoles.

Media playback mode for HD game consoles Starts Jan 2014 and for UHD Game consoles starts Jan 2016.

A Tier 3 for Navigation for both HD and UHD that starts for both Jan 2017 @ 70 watts ( Best guess is a firmware update reduces the power needed Jan 2017 )

What this suggests is that the PS4 and XB1 hardware can support UHD blu-ray but it wasn't envisioned it would be enabled till after Jan 2016. The VP of Microsoft said in 2013 that the XB1 hardware can support UHD blu-ray and Sony said the PS4 supports 4K media.

 

[jeff_rigby]

Jeff, dude, just...just stop it.

I really appreciate your research abilities, but your conclusions reach almost conspiratorial levels. And most of it in this thread is just flat out wrong.

Just stop with these predictions. Or don't if making them really gives you joy, but maybe learn to present them as (and think of them as) fun theories, not statements of fact.

Every time I look based on someone disagreeing with my statements I find more. Several hours after your post Rus prompted me to look again for Energy Efficiency for Game Consoles and I find UHD Game Consoles were released at the same time the PS4 and XB1 were released. Gee how do you explain that? Where are they? and why does the Media playback for UHD blu-ray start 2 plus years after the release in 2013 of the UHD Game Console?

Give me a break and really read what I have researched. There is NO other conclusion: The PS4 will be a UHD Blu-ray player after a firmware update sometime after Jan 2016 as plans have changed; same for the XB1. When is likely with PS4 Firmware 4.0 this October and is tied to VR as much of what is in the PS4 for Sony's VR support is also used for UHD Blu-ray. The release of VR has been iffy too and finally locked down to October.

I appreciate Rus correcting me and your appreciation of my research but why does it fall upon me to find this?

 

[family_guy]

Every time I look based on someone disagreeing with my statements I find more. Several hours after your post Rus prompted me to look again for Energy Efficiency for Game Consoles and I find UHD Game Consoles were released at the same time the PS4 and XB1 were released. Gee how do you explain that? Where are they? and why does the Media playback for UHD blu-ray start 2 plus years after the release in 2013 of the UHD Game Console?

Give me a break and really read what I have researched. There is NO other conclusion: The PS4 will be a UHD Blu-ray player after a firmware update sometime after Jan 2016 as plans have changed; same for the XB1. When is likely with PS4 Firmware 4.0 this October and is tied to VR as much of what is in the PS4 for Sony's VR support is also used for VR. The release of VR has been iffy too and finally locked down to October.

Maybe you could bet your account if this doesn't come to fruition by the end of the year.

 

[i3allistic]

man! if PS4 support 4k Blu-ray that be perfect, because i just picked up a Vizio P-Series last week, now i just need Sony too spill the beans to Logitech so i can turn the PS4 on/off with my Harmony Remote ....

 

[howdyjacker]

Can people stop bumping this thread? With all the news lately I keep getting my hopes up its official news but.... Nah, just another Jeff rigby thread.

And yes, irony is a word I can spell .

 

[jeff_rigby]

Maybe you could bet your account if this doesn't come to fruition by the end of the year.

I bet with shares of SNE and shares of AMD as for sure Kaveri and Carrizo as well as Polaris dGPUs will support UHD BLu-ray with Windows 10 and Sony is one of three writing the UHD PC Player software.

UHD Blu-ray digital bridge will be supported by Playready ND. Game Consoles will use Playready ND for streaming 1080P from DVRs and Live streaming for 1080P. This is in the Playready ND whitepaper and Sony-Panasonic UHD BLu-ray PDFs leaked with the Sony Hack last year. It's speculation that Game Consoles will use Playready ND to stream UHD Blu-ray movies over the home network but only PCs, PS4 and XB1 have Hard disks and UHD Blu-ray players. The same Xtensa accelerators used for HEVC codecs can support vision processing, the video distortion needed for VR Goggles and up and down scaling video for the Digital bridge.

 

[jeff_rigby]

Can people stop bumping this thread? With all the news lately I keep getting my hopes up its official news but.... Nah, just another Jeff rigby thread.

And yes, irony is a word I can spell .

Official notification:

http://www.eceee.org/ecodesign/prod...mes consoles VA - letter to stakeholders .pdf



So everyone understands the following is confirmed;

UHD Game Consoles shipped in 2013 but won't be firmware updated to support it till 2016.. There is a second paper naming both the XB1 and PS4 as UHD game consoles.

So this is understood as confirmed:

The PS4 has a HDMI 2 port with HDCP taking place in Southbridge and the GPGPU block mentioned by Eurogamer in the PS4 and XB1 are Xtensa DSP accelerators that are used for HEVC and OpenVX (Vision processing and Codecs using GPGPU with special blocks that are 20-100X more efficient than CPU or GPU GPGPU at some tasks.)

And for the Player software and License for UHD Game Console

There is a BDA Licence for UHD Blu-ray game consoles and Sony has a License for a BD-ROM4 Movie Player/BD-ROM Game Console/BD-ROM Test Player and a License for a UHD Blu-ray PC application.. BD-ROM4 is the UHD blu-ray version. What was confusing was that it was for a Category that included all Embedded platforms where the Manufacturer has control over the drive and all DRM; I.E. Stand alone UHD Blu-ray players and Game Consoles.

And the argument now is there is no UHD Drive in the PS4 or the coming Neo.

A modern HD Blu-ray drive can be firmware updated to support UHD (Version 2 disks). They must buy a Licence ($60,000) and provide a server for pairing/Key encryption between the drive and Player across the USB or eSATA bus. ALL blu-ray drives can read three or more layers. It's the disk that is special not the drive; this is mentioned in Wiki pages.

 

[jeff_rigby]

The HTML Media Extensions Working Group was extended today (April 2016) until the end of September 2016. As part of making video a first class citizen of the Web, an effort started by HTML5 itself in 2007, W3C has been working on many extension specifications for the Open Web Platform: capturing images from the local device camera, handling of video streams and tracks, captioning and other enhancements for accessibility, audio processing, real-time communications, etc. The HTML Media Extensions Working Group is working on two of those extensions: Media Sources Extensions (MSE), for facilitating adaptive and live streaming, and Encrypted Media Extensions (EME), for playback of protected content. Both are extension specifications to enhance the Open Web Platform with rich media support.

Since all UHD Media uses HTML5 <video> MSE EME in some manor (UHD BLu-ray uses the C-ENC format but with AACS2) this could explain the PS4 and XB1 as UHD Capable Consoles not being firmware updated till after September 2016. Firmware 4.0 should occur after this date, in any case it's usually sometime end of September to middle of November. PS4 VR starts October and a firmware update should occur before then.

AMD and Nvidia just released drivers for OpenVX so Microsoft and Sony should do the same for the PS4 and XB1 soon. Open VX uses accelerators (25 times more efficient) that are vender specific in addition to GPU compute and complements openCV which uses primarily GPU compute or openCL. The accelerators for the PS4 are Xtensa processors in Southbridge. Because of their location they can be used to pre and post process video while the XB1 Xtensa processors are in the APU and can be used for more. The Kinect camera already pre processes video.

 

[Dee Dah Dave]

Even if the PS4 and XB1 could technically support 4K, I think it's more likely they don't 'allow' it. Instead choosing to make it available on the Neo / Scorpio as a fancy bullet point and one more reason to upgrade to the new model etc.

 

[Robot Pants]

Even if the PS4 and XB1 could technically support 4K, I think it's more likely they don't 'allow' it. Instead choosing to make it available on the Neo / Scorpio as a fancy bullet point and one more reason to upgrade to the new model etc.

This

 

[spons]

You seem to put a lot of trust in these companies doing what's best for us, not just for them. UHD will not be supported because they have new devices to push, even if software decoding is possible they just aren't going to implement it.

Edit: beaten.

 

[jeff_rigby]

You seem to put a lot of trust in these companies doing what's best for us, not just for them. UHD will not be supported because they have new devices to push, even if software decoding is possible they just aren't going to implement it.

Edit: beaten.

You do realize the game consoles are designed to support media as another continuing revenue stream. They don't make much money if any on the sale of the hardware, they make the money on the media (games and streaming). Sony additionally makes money on every blu-ray disk sold. It looks like Sony is writing a PC UHD blu-ray application player and the XB1 UHD Blu-ray player. (Microsoft does not have a BDA licence while Sony does). There is one other BDA licence for PCs but none for the XB1 except Sony.

I didn't mention that Embedded UHD blu-ray players don't have to follow all the standards as they are closed platforms but a PC or Game console that is also going to support UHD streaming or UHD Antenna TV (ATSC 3.0) has to fully support HTML5 <video> EME MSE and parts of that are also used for UHD Blu-ray.

After September of this year, all APP streaming will use nearly all of the same software stack that UHD media uses including HEVC. HEVC to reduce the bandwidth needed which includes 3D and browser VR.

 

[Kaldaien]

Yikes, as soon as I read the provisions for data being inaccessible using a JTAG debugger, I lost all hope for software UHD Blu-Ray decoding. Taking a JTAG probe and snooping video data is crazy difficult, bypassing Direct3D copy protection is pretty easy.

Yeah, the lack of HDMI 2.0 support is the killer here. It's not a matter of bandwidth even, because Blu-Ray is already encoded at 4:2:0 and HDMI 1.4 has enough bandwidth for that at up to 60 FPS. HDCP 2.2 is the showstopper

 

[opoth]

Just stop

 

[Adam Tyner]

It looks like Sony is writing the XB1 UHD Blu-ray player.

It doesn't look like that at all.

 

[jeff_rigby]

It doesn't look like that at all.

Mark, was Ito lying yes or no?

Have you even thought about what a UHD blu-ray player for the XB1 and PS4 will look like?

I.E. it's almost a browser APP

Is the XB1 a PC or Game console? In both cases Sony has a licence and Microsoft does not. It is possible that Microsoft buys a licence at the last minute.

 

[Adam Tyner]

Mark, was Ito lying yes or no?

Mark?!

I'm not sure if you're calling me "Mark" (my name is Adam) or if that's some flourish like "hark! the UHD BD firmware is nigh". Anyway, was Ito incorrect? Possibly. I don't think he was lying, but I'm not the grand conspiracy guy that you are. If UHD BD support was in the works and not ready to be announced, there are so many other ways to deflect that than to give specific technical details why it's not possible. I believe that Ito believed what he was saying to be true.

To recap:

1) jeff_rigby believes the launch Xbox One will be firmware updated to support Ultra HD Blu-ray. The only direct statement from Microsoft about this predates the console and comes years before the UHD BD spec was finalized. He's currently hinging his argument on a consultant group's document to the EU that makes offhand mention of the XB1 and PS4 being UHD capable, not that that necessarily means anything about UHD BD in particular.
2) The Blu-ray Disc Association's website lists only Cyberlink, sMedio, and Sony as having licenses to produce UHD BD applications for the PC. It's unclear how well the BDA maintains this online list or how up-to-date it is.
3) Therefore, Sony must be making the UHD BD player for the Xbox One.

That's a whole lot of logical leaps.

 

[jeff_rigby]

Yikes, as soon as I read the provisions for data being inaccessible using a JTAG debugger, I lost all hope for software UHD Blu-Ray decoding. Taking a JTAG probe and snooping video data is crazy difficult, bypassing Direct3D copy protection is pretty easy.

Yeah, the lack of HDMI 2.0 support is the killer here. It's not a matter of bandwidth even, because Blu-Ray is already encoded at 4:2:0 and HDMI 1.4 has enough bandwidth for that at up to 60 FPS. HDCP 2.2 is the showstopper

HDCP 2.2 takes place in the TEE and is mapped to the HDMI chip. The same HDCP 2.2 is also used for Miracast and HDMI over LAN. This is a requirement of the movie industry, HDCP 2.2 takes place in a trusted boot, trusted execution Environment not a HDMI chip.

ARM Trustzone platforms have had HDCP 2.2 in the TEE since 2012 and the XB1 and PS4 have ARM trustzone TEEs. HDCP2.2 was officially mapped to the HDMI port Feb 2013 using the same pin, voltage and negotiation scheme HDMI 1.4 used. The PS4 has a custom Panasonic HDMI chip not a HDMI 1.4.

See page 18 in this ARM TEE pdf.

The XB1 and PS4 are officially UHD capable. http://www.eceee.org/static/media/u.../games-consoles-va-letter-to-stakeholders.pdf

 

[Adam Tyner]

Link to a letter officially confirming this was taken down.

Uh, no, it wasn't: http://www.eceee.org/static/media/u.../games-consoles-va-letter-to-stakeholders.pdf

The filename is essentially identical, just with slightly different casing and dashes instead of spaces. I think you're putting way too much stock in that document, but it is undeniably still there.

 

[Trojita]

We have 4K Discs out now with no information or company release saying the PS4 will support these.

 

[jeff_rigby]

Mark?!

I'm not sure if you're calling me "Mark" (my name is Adam) or if that's some flourish like "hark! the UHD BD firmware is nigh". Anyway, was Ito incorrect? Possibly. I don't think he was lying, but I'm not the grand conspiracy guy that you are. If UHD BD support was in the works and not ready to be announced, there are so many other ways to deflect that than to give specific technical details why it's not possible. I believe that Ito believed what he was saying to be true.

To recap:

1) jeff_rigby believes the launch Xbox One will be firmware updated to support Ultra HD Blu-ray.
2) The Blu-ray Disc Association's website lists only Cyberlink, sMedio, and Sony as having licenses to produce UHD BD applications for the PC. It's unclear how well the BDA maintains this online list or how up-to-date it is.

The BDA lists Sony having a licence for an Embedded, movie player, Game console.
Game console is an embedded player where the drive is locked to the player and all DRM is handled by the manufacturer
Movie Player is a platform licence to play UHD movies streamed from a UHD Blu-ray player with digital bridge. Code and DRM requirements are nearly the same but no drive.

3) Therefore, Sony must be making the UHD BD player for the Xbox One.

That's a whole lot of logical leaps.

Sorry for the name calling.

To Recap:
1) Adam believe's it's too soon to call UHD Blu-ray support in the PS4 and XB1
2) He cites Ito saying it's not possible because the PS4 drive can't read three layers and there is no HEVC codec.
3) I cite a official paper stating the XB1 and PS4 are UHD Capable which means after firmware update they can support UHD Media. That means the PS4 and XB1 can support HEVC and will have a full HTML5 browser as UHD media uses the HTML5 UI and the HTML5 <video> player. It also means the XB1 and PS4 have a trusted boot TEE and do HDCP 2.2 in the TEE.
4) I cite the Mount Fuji differences between book 8 and 9 which are the firmware updates to allow a BD-ROM drive to read what BDXL drives can read with 2010 BDA specs. In addition the drive changes to pair drive and player encryption across a USB or eSATA bus which for PCs requires a server but is optional for embedded and Game Console players.

Ito said the PS4 drive can't read three layers and there is no HEVC codec in the PS4. The PS4 BD-ROM drive can read three layers but can't read 33GB/layer without a firmware update. There is no HEVC codec in the PS4 until it's firmware updated.

I'll accept that Ito was trying to mislead and not lie but got confused as to the drive reading three layers when it is the 33GB/layer that needed firmware updating.

 

[jeff_rigby]

Uh, no, it wasn't: http://www.eceee.org/static/media/u.../games-consoles-va-letter-to-stakeholders.pdf

The filename is essentially identical, just with slightly different casing and dashes instead of spaces. I think you're putting way too much stock in that document, but it is undeniably still there.

The links I have in the first page of this thread stopped working. I'll update them with what you found. And Adam, it's not just that document, it's a ton of other cites but those require technical knowledge. UHD Capable should be the end of the doubts.

 

[jeff_rigby]

We have 4K Discs out now with no information or company release saying the PS4 will support these.

You need to check that it's not a 1080P blu-ray disk from a 4K master as that has been put forth before as a mis-understanding.

 

[potatohead]

Dunno what is happening in this thread.

But at the very least... NEO will most likely support 4K media and 4K BD based on what House just stated....

So... rigby is not totally wrong ^^

 

[thetester77]

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

Help me, Jeff make it stop.

If my current Ps4 is capable of running 4k Blu Ray and is a standard feature (not hacked or anything to do so) then I'll take on any dare you see fit.

 

[thetester77]

Dunno what is happening in this thread.

But at the very least... NEO will most likely support 4K media and 4K BD based on what House just stated....

So... rigby is not totally wrong ^^

Yes he is,, Jeff has stated that Home Consoles released in 2013 (ie XB1 and PS4) will be patched to run 4k Blu Ray

Neo/Scorpio will be released 2016/17 now that all the specs for 4k are agreed and they are changing the hardware - Jeff has stated time again that our existing consoles will run these which just won't happen even IF it was technically possible as it will be one of the selling points of the new systems

 

[old manatee]

I can't wait to watch the the amazing 4k BluRays available, such as Fant4stic, The Amazing SpiderMan 2, Now You See Me, San Andreas, God's of Egypt, Divergent and Allegiant, Exodus, Pan, Chappie, The Maze Runner and Maze Runner 2, The 5th Wave, Hitman: Agent 47, and Pride and Prejudice and Zombies.

 

[-ImaginaryInsider]

You can't argue with crazy folks.

If you call Jeff out and prove he's absolutely wrong, he will just disappear for a bit, then reappear and amend his original theory to include your point without really acknowledging he was completely wrong.

He originally claimed the PS4K was Kotaku and Eurogamer misunderstanding information only he could decode, and that the Neo was just a PS4 firmware update that would majorly drive sales.

 

[SURGEdude]

man! if PS4 support 4k Blu-ray that be perfect, because i just picked up a Vizio P-Series last week, now i just need Sony too spill the beans to Logitech so i can turn the PS4 on/off with my Harmony Remote ....

Aren't Harmonys IR based? If so the PS4 can't support them. Though perhaps there is a Bluetooth model above the one I own.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Aren't Harmonys IR based? If so the PS4 can't support them. Though perhaps there is a Bluetooth model above the one I own.

http://www.techhive.com/article/204...s-universal-remote-control-to-the-future.html

I also believe Logitech makes a Harmony app turning your phones into one now too.

 

[Skelter]

Aren't Harmonys IR based? If so the PS4 can't support them. Though perhaps there is a Bluetooth model above the one I own.

It's pretty sad when my Harmony Elite can turn on my Wii U but not my PS4.

http://www.techhive.com/article/204...s-universal-remote-control-to-the-future.html

I also believe Logitech makes a Harmony app turning your phones into one now too.

I have the Harmony Elite, the PS4 still requires the DS3 to be turned on. The remote can't control the entire console unlike the Wii U or Xbox One. Annoying as hell when watching blurays and I need to pause.

 

[DeepEnigma]

It's pretty sad when my Harmony Elite can turn on my Wii U but not my PS4.



I have the Harmony Elite, the PS4 still requires the DS3 to be turned on. The remote can't control the entire console unlike the Wii U or Xbox One. Annoying as hell when watching blurays and I need to pause.

Gotcha. I have everything through BraviaSync, and phone apps.

I was just responding to the wondering of the BT Harmony.

 

[Skelter]

Gotcha. I have everything through BraviaSync, and phone apps.

I was just responding to the wondering of the BT Harmony.

Just clarifying for the person with the Vizio TV, though I think vizio have CIC? Can't remember.

 

[PodcastFips]

I smile every time I open this thread.

 

[AstroLad]

So sorry having a hard time following this whole mess. Does it basically seem right now that PS4k won't support 4k discs, but xbone4k will? Because that would make me entirely flip what I planned on doing. Was actually the one feature pushing me over the edge to get the PS4k.

 

[Orayn]

So sorry having a hard time following this whole mess. Does it basically seem right now that PS4k won't support 4k discs, but xbone4k will? Because that would make me entirely flip what I planned on doing. Was actually the one feature pushing me over the edge to get the PS4k.

That detail only applied to the Neo/PS4K devkits, not necessarily the retail version.

 

[Trojita]

You need to check that it's not a 1080P blu-ray disk from a 4K master as that has been put forth before as a mis-understanding.

They are real 4K Discs.

https://www.amazon.com/Deadpool-4K-Ultra-HD-Blu-ray/dp/B01CB37LBO/

already out in consumers hands.

 

[Hero_of_the_Day]

How the fuck has this thread title never been changed? The normal PS4 can't support 4k blurays. That's all there is to it. Sony didn't stealth release a 4k bluray player some two and a half years before anyone else.

 

[Mindwipe]

I can't wait to watch the the amazing 4k BluRays available, such as Fant4stic, The Amazing SpiderMan 2, Now You See Me, San Andreas, God's of Egypt, Divergent and Allegiant, Exodus, Pan, Chappie, The Maze Runner and Maze Runner 2, The 5th Wave, Hitman: Agent 47, and Pride and Prejudice and Zombies.

Chappie and ASM2 actually have really good transfers... Maze Runner looks alright too.

How the fuck has this thread title never been changed? The normal PS4 can't support 4k blurays. That's all there is to it. Sony didn't stealth release a 4k bluray player some two and a half years before anyone else.

Indeed. I've pointed out before the 4K blu-ray DRM literally cannot be implemented in software, and is not Playready. Said security spec was not even finished until nearly two years after the PS4 was released. It is not happening.

 

[cakely]

How the fuck has this thread title never been changed? The normal PS4 can't support 4k blurays. That's all there is to it. Sony didn't stealth release a 4k bluray some two and a half years before anyone else.

Because Jeff Rigby, aka NeoGAF's "Time Cube". This thread isn't his only contribution to the site.

 

[Stinkles]

Hahaha how could I have missed this thread? So amazing.

 

[Guess Who]

Indeed. I've pointed out before the 4K blu-ray DRM literally cannot be implemented in software, and is not Playready. Said security spec was not even finished until nearly two years after the PS4 was released. It is not happening.

you've just been educated stupid by your belly-button having "professors" and until you rip your bible apart your sad snot brain will never understand the glory of the harmonic 4-corner 4-quadrant time cube

 

[Menitta]

Why was this thread bumped again?

 

[Wishmaster92]

STOP BUMPING