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[Spieler Eins]

Kyle Hyde.
Because that's a real character. Badass, but not because the writers blatantly forced it that way.

 

[Jado]

I know a lot of people are just posting their favorite characters, but Joel and Nathan Drake are examples of "bad" white characters as far as the OP is concerned. You could change their race and literally nothing would change. Their whiteness is not a product of the needs of the story.

Anyway, I think that's the point of the OP, that minorities often have to justify their ethnicity/minority-ness in a way that white protagonists don't. People posting Joel and Nathan Drake are kind of proving that point. When you sit down and think about it, you realize that there really aren't that many characters that have to be white for any reason other than sales potential. It's pretty funny when you add that to conversations about how artistic The Last of Us is. But I digress.

John Marston and Professor Layton from the OP is a great example, and one I was going to use until I got to it in the OP itself.

Makes you wonder why, in every thread where the topic of diversity comes up, people say that minorities need to be justified in the story or gameplay.

That's the point of this thread: if minorities have to justify being a minority, then what are examples where a majority character's majority status is justified or central to the story or gameplay?

Pretty much all the responses I'm seeing aren't really addressing that question.


That's a great question, one I wish more people asked every time someone said that about minority characters.

Thank you for this. I think many have either missed the point of the OP or deliberately chosen to ignore it in favor of getting defensive about the mere thought of questioning the shitty white characters they love so much.

+1

So for people saying that "it's hard to write characters that are minorities", what exactly makes them so hard to write?

Minorities skin color somehow makes them difficult? HOW?

Nothing. It's just a lie or non-excuse.

Damn at the post below.

 

[GoodCoffeeJoey]

Lara Croft and Nathan Drake. They go into other peoples countries to take their stuff, and then act like the victim when they get attacked by the locals. And then in response slaughter them all mercilessly.

 

[Spring-Loaded]

An excuse implies there's something to be excused. There are reasons that writers of all race, creeds, and genders primarily write people that are like themselves.

Yes, and there's no good reason for people not be able to do otherwise. The person I was replying to was attempting to validate the "people write what they know" justification.

 

[JLeack]

Samus.

J/K.

GORDAN FREEMAN.

 

[Wazzy]

Joel from The Last Of Us and Squall Leonhart from Final Fantasy VIII for me are well done.

They were relateable characters with understandable emotional barriers due to traumatizing events. Granted, Joel's seems more understandable due to

Spoiler

losing his child

but Squall was a child when his happened and we experience him right before he's entering adulthood. I didn't see them as characters that could easily be interchangable with someone else.

 

[timetokill]

Joel from The Last Of Us and Squall Leonhart from Final Fantasy VIII for me are well done.

They were relateable characters with understandable emotional barriers due to traumatizing events. Granted, Joel's seems more understandable due to

Spoiler

losing his child

but Squall was a child when his happened and we experience him right before he's entering adulthood. I didn't see them as characters that could easily be interchangable with someone else.

If Joel wasn't white, would that change anything?

Also, isn't Squall Asian? I don't remember.

 

[fedexpeon]

Almost all of them?
I rarely stop playing because of a white male not done correctly.
To me, characters are just devices that drive the story forward.
Even FC3 Jason aka one of the worst character ever, didn't prevent me from playing the game.
I don't view characters as white/black/asian in my game, they are just actors that play a part in the overall narrative.
Am I weird?

 

[flatearthpandas]

Yes, and there's no good reason for people not be able to do otherwise. The person I was replying to was attempting to validate the "people write what they know" justification.

Don't be obtuse. There are plenty of good reasons not to write about a minority you aren't intimately familiar with. Of course, there are plenty of good reasons to do the opposite as well, so long as you are prepared to get intimately familiar with the subject.

 

[Spring-Loaded]

Don't be obtuse. There are plenty of good reasons not to write about a minority you aren't intimately familiar with. Of course, there are plenty of good reasons to do the opposite as well, so long as you are prepared to get intimately familiar with the subject.

Let's say you're fat. I ask why you're fat and you say you have low metabolism, don't exercise and eat poorly. That's all may be true, but those aren't a good reasons for you to stay fat.

You must not be aware of the people that are actively trying to defend — not just say "this is probably why" — white males being the default video game character because "people write what they know." That's the only explanation for you thinking this is me being obtuse.

Not only that, but the topic is video game characters and the white male characters the OP are referring to are the ones that never needed to be white. Plenty of white male American video game characters could be different skin colors or genders without affecting anything of note in the game.

EDIT:

careful, soulassssns

 

[soulassssns]

Why does race even matter?

 

[Lime]

Lara Croft and Nathan Drake. They go into other peoples countries to take their stuff, and then act like the victim when they get attacked by the locals. And then in response slaughter them all mercilessly.

And everyone loves them. Seems like a typical reflection of White culture.

 

[ishibear]

Use your imagination.
No, really.

Imagination doesn't give you any answers when you're trying to write about a real type of person that you're not intimately familiar with; it gives you a bunch of questions that you will realize you have to research to get the answers to.

Like what? What do you possibly have to look up if you're writing about a character? Use YOUR imagination. It's your character. If you have no concept on the struggle minorities go thru, don't write about it. That shouldn't stop you from still being able to give them other background. What the hell are you implying? That every minority MUST be the same?

I'm different from an African American who's come here from Africa after growing up there. I was born here so I know nothing about the way of living in Africa outside of the news. They could tell you so much more than I because of that, and even I could learn from them. I'm just like a lot of Americans in that aspect, right?

That's because I AM an average American. I'm black. But the color of my skin doesn't define me, my story is different from the next person and theirs from mine. Pick which you find easier to work with.

Personally, I enjoy an opportunity to learn about others so I've got no problems asking people about their world and their perception of it. But if you find my average, boring American life easier to write, you're free to. It's realistic~ because I live it and many live similarly. But it's pretty lazy of you as a writer to take the easy route.

A minority is more than a skin tone. There is culture and history. The less culture and history you are able to include, the more you are just reskinning or regendering a white male. Not what I consider representation.

A good author isn't interested in swapping the skin color on Joe Homebody and patting himself on the back for writing an authentic Indian-American. And if the race has absolutely no bearing on the story, a good author probably has better things to do than research Indian-Americans for no good reason. Go with what you know and tell the story you're actually interested in telling.

You're so dismissive and hostile.

There's plenty of minorities in the world that don't live the lifestyle you're so scared of. There's Latinos who don't speak Spanish because their parents were born here in America. There's Black people who aren't religious. Asians who don't do kung funny or karate.

You're set with this stereotype of a view towards minorities.

There's better things to do then explore a person who's living a world different than yours... Terrible.

And once again, we have a poster who believes that skin color will magically drastically alter a story because~ different.

Just so you know, I've written stories about a main character who was a Pacific islander but moved to New York as a teenager with his parents. No accent, he was a basketball player and he hated inventing tools but he was awesome at it because he was a great handyman. He also had control issues that greatly impacted his life.

I'm not a Pacific Islander, not a boy either, never moved a day in my life, I hate sports since I suck at them and I can't invent anything except stories and I suck at maintenance. But what we have in common? I once had control issues. I wanted to give him something in common with me so he could speak to my person.

If I can do it, anyone can. No excuses.

 

[Mr.Miyamoto]

Being a heterosexual man of eastern European descent I always feel a little peeved that such a fuss is raised when games are said to feature "just some more hetereonormative white guys" like that's the generic default for humanity or something -- that people like that can't possibly be interesting, unique or diverse.

I think that game designers should be able to create whatever characters fit the narratives they're trying to convey without having to worry about people complaining that their characters are somehow inferior because they're not something more "interesting" like old pansexual furries from Yemen.

Characters are characters, people are people. There are lots of different kinds and everyone has a story to tell. Artists making their own works should be able to convey whatever kinds of people they choose without fear of needing to soullessly fill diversity quotas to satisfy some undetermined social requirement that says their work has less value because of its chosen subjects.

 

[Circle Jerk]

I know a lot of people are just posting their favorite characters, but Joel and Nathan Drake are examples of "bad" white characters as far as the OP is concerned. You could change their race and literally nothing would change. Their whiteness is not a product of the needs of the story.

Anyway, I think that's the point of the OP, that minorities often have to justify their ethnicity/minority-ness in a way that white protagonists don't. People posting Joel and Nathan Drake are kind of proving that point. When you sit down and think about it, you realize that there really aren't that many characters that have to be white for any reason other than sales potential. It's pretty funny when you add that to conversations about how artistic The Last of Us is. But I digress.

John Marston and Professor Layton from the OP is a great example, and one I was going to use until I got to it in the OP itself.

I don't understand the bolded. Not trying to be a dick, I just literally don't understand what you are trying to say here.

 

[joecanada]

To be honest, I can't really fathom a white male done 'wrong'. I don't think it works when you break it down to an individual level.

If I think I know where you are coming from , I agree....

So far I disagree with most here because they remind me how bad video game writing is... I see several GTA V mentions, which has terrible writing, and none of the characters are believable even in the slightest unless you are willing to only take a few cinema scenes out of the entire game.

Joel from the last of us - I've heard good things but

Spoiler

waiting to pick it up on ps4...

I honestly can't think of many ... Soul Reaver had a pretty good fantasy story with an inner struggle but you have to suspend belief about fantasy first.

 

[timetokill]

I don't understand the bolded. Not trying to be a dick, I just literally don't understand what you are trying to say here.

To not derail the thread it's probably better to take it to PM. I'll edit my post so if you're really interested send me a PM.

 

[Wazzy]

If Joel wasn't white, would that change anything?

Also, isn't Squall Asian? I don't remember.

Squall is white. I mean, it's not stated but I think it's fairly obvious he is. Rinoa isn't even asian, she's supposed to be european.

My examples weren't about the fact they couldn't be another ethnicity but just they were well done characters who at least had a role and personality that mattered compared to something like say, Link who is speechless and could easily be female or another ethnicity.

 

[milkham]

I'm not a Pacific Islander, not a boy either, never moved a day in my life, I hate sports since I suck at them and I can't invent anything except stories and I suck at maintenance. But what we have in common? I once had control issues. I wanted to give him something in common with me so he could speak to my person.

If I can do it, anyone can. No excuses.

yeah but what are the stakes here if you fuck it up? is someone going to boycott your book? will you be laughed out of your industry? will people blog about how racist you are? will your story tank and take the livelihoods of people you work with down with you?

 

[NinjamicWZ]

Alucard is pretty white

 

[timetokill]

Squall is white. I mean, it's not stated but I think it's fairly obvious he is. Rinoa isn't even asian, she's supposed to be european.

I don't know, Rinoa looks pretty asian to me. I'm only bringing it up because I would imagine that many Japanese creators make their characters "asian" in their perspective but many in the west default them to "white" despite there not being evidence for it. It's an interesting situation.

My examples weren't about the fact they couldn't be another ethnicity but just they were well done characters who at least had a role and personality that mattered compared to something like say, Link who is speechless and could easily be female or another ethnicity.

Oh, then it seems kind of contrary to what the OP was asking about. The OP wasn't just asking for white characters that happened to be good characters.

 

[ToraShiro]

Max Payne, especially in 3.



While he could ostensibly be the poster boy for the standard white, bald, male action hero/power fantasy, I see him as more of a subversion.

He's old, he's fat, he whines about everything, he's battling all kinds of addictions, is utterly self-absorbed and suffers from a bad case of the PTSD from murdering so many people over the course of three games. You don't look up to this guy. He's not a hero in any real sense, he's a charity case with a bad haircut and an even worse temper.

I think as a whole, it's actually important that Max Payne is not necessarily white but American (white just helps him stand out more), because the context of the narrative is about "what is the white guy (American) doing in Brazil and what does he hope to achieve as a badass gunslinger when the whole power struggle in Brazil is run by nothing BUT badass gunslingers?"

He doesn't understand the politics, language or culture, he's completely over his head and has no connection to any of the people he has to work for or deal with, but he soldiers on because he has nothing left to lose, is the only thing he's good at, and sees an injustice that would otherwise go unnoticed in this corrupt, foreign land he's found himself in.

This is specifically in relation to Max Payne 3, which is just... So... SO great at establishing this outlier in story that fits so well in for the character.

Having the character be a fill in for one of the old noir tropes is basically the only reason he had to be white in the first two games, he could have easily been Latino, Black, Asian or female since being a detective in New York is a pretty diverse pot.

 

[lem0n]

Tommy Vercetti.

 

[Cocaloch]

Just so you know, I've written stories about a main character who was a Pacific islander but moved to New York as a teenager with his parents. No accent, he was a basketball player and he hated inventing tools but he was awesome at it because he was a great handyman. He also had control issues that greatly impacted his life.

I'm not a Pacific Islander, not a boy either, never moved a day in my life, I hate sports since I suck at them and I can't invent anything except stories and I suck at maintenance. But what we have in common? I once had control issues. I wanted to give him something in common with me so he could speak to my person.

If I can do it, anyone can. No excuses.

If I understand the argument it is specifically when it comes to writing about issues that these various communities face, the privileged simply cannot understand what it is like to be part of a non-privileged class. So any writer could easily write a character who is black for instance, but it would be extremely difficult and controversial for a writer to attempt to tackle an issue such as how black people are treated by the police or what it is like to live knowing that the system will pretty much always favor the majority over you.

I'm not agreeing with this, but this is hardly a viewpoint only held by those arguing the white male games are all we need. LGBTQ activists often also make similar arguments especially when it comes to intersectionality and the like.

 

[Wazzy]

I don't know, Rinoa looks pretty asian to me. I'm only bringing it up because I would imagine that many Japanese creators make their characters "asian" in their perspective but many in the west default them to "white" despite there not being evidence for it. It's an interesting situation.


Oh, then it seems kind of contrary to what the OP was asking about. The OP wasn't just asking for white characters that happened to be good characters.

I think at times she definitley looks asian but her design kind of changes a lot in FMV's so there is times where she looks white. I believe Nomura stated he intended her to look european. But I do understand that mindset a lot of western people have. I just think in VIII's case it's pretty obvious he's white.

I might have misunderstood the OP but I thought by good white male characters it wasn't just meaning someone who HAD to be white but also established characters who are well written and at least show they had a purpose when created and are not just faceless avatars that are the standard white straight male with no other playable options.

If not, then I guess my post can be ignored, heh.

 

[ishibear]

yeah but what are the stakes here if you fuck it up? is someone going to boycott your book? will you be laughed out of your industry? will people blog about how racist you are? will your story tank and take the livelihoods of people you work with down with you?

If I fuck up my story, that's on me for being an inept writer, I'll just try harder next time.

I can't predict people or their behaviour, but what's to boycott?

Criticism fuels me to keep going. Laughter ain't shit. I'll laugh too if I royally fucked up. And then onto the next but I'm not resorting to generic dudebro because I'm scared.

What's racist about it? There's no stereotypes and the guy isn't trying to be white, black or anything, just live his life EXACTLY how he wants it, but has to learn the world doesn't work that way.

I doubt it. Tbh, I have the utmost confidence in my skills as a creator and writer that I'm sure everyone involved will be fine. However, there's no telling the future. But that said, I'm willing to go down for what I'm passionate about than to conform out of fear. I would hope those who work with me would feel the same.

 

[flatearthpandas]

Let's say you're fat. I ask why you're fat and you say you have low metabolism, don't exercise and eat poorly. That's all may be true, but those aren't a good reasons for you to stay fat.

You must not be aware of the people that are actively trying to defend — not just say "this is probably why" — white males being the default video game character because "people write what they know." That's the only explanation for you thinking this is me being obtuse.

Not only that, but the topic is video game characters and the white male characters the OP are referring to are the ones that never needed to be white. Plenty of white male American video game characters could be different skin colors or genders without affecting anything of note in the game.

Technically, the characters the OP is looking for are the ones that specifically do need to be white, to draw our attention to how many of them didn't need to be white. I think it's an interesting topic and do wish it had continued down that avenue. But between people repeatedly failing to understand that point and discussion like this, perhaps it isn't meant to be.

As to the rest, I am well aware of what people are trying to defend. I've said it before, but it is unreasonable to think that white male writers in the videogame industry have some moral onus to differentiate themselves from the majority of other writers across the world and throughout history and occupy themselves with writing main characters that are not of their race and gender. That is not the norm in any major medium that I'm aware of. That is not to say I think it is bad for people to challenge themselves and write outside of their comfort zone, but if the story doesn't call for it I see absolutely no necessity for them to do so.

Further, we are talking about videogame writing. It not known for quality, and that is writing what they know. I cringe to think what would happen if they were all charged with writing minority characters tomorrow. There would be riots in the Neogaf streets when those titles all dropped. What the industry needs is more real diversity. However you judge the reasons for white people writing white people, those reasons hold true across all writers. Diversity in the industry will bring diversity to gaming by default, just like it is white male by default right now. What's better, that representation will be as accurate as it will be possible for the industry to provide.

Now I hope more people read the OP and post some more interesting characters that could only have been white.

 

[Tangeroo]

Maybe it would be better if the thread title was along the lines of Video game characters that wouldn't make sense/work if they weren't a "white male"

 

[milkham]

If I fuck up my story, that's on me for being an inept writer, I'll just try harder next time.

I can't predict people or their behaviour, but what's to boycott?

Criticism fuels me to keep going. Laughter ain't shit. I'll laugh too if I royally fucked up. And then onto the next but I'm not resorting to generic dudebro because I'm scared.

What's racist about it? There's no stereotypes and the guy isn't trying to be white, black or anything, just live his life EXACTLY how he wants it, but has to learn the world doesn't work that way.

I doubt it. Tbh, I have the utmost confidence in my skills as a creator and writer that I'm sure everyone involved will be fine. However, there's no telling the future. But that said, I'm willing to go down for what I'm passionate about than to conform out of fear. I would hope those who work with me would feel the same.

You can be accused of racism for anything, I'm not saying there is anything in your particular scenario that is. I agree with you for the most part and I do wish for more diversity and risk in game storylines/characters but its easier to take risks when you have more personal agency in something. A book, sure, but a AAA game studio? If i was a white guy at a studio where if my game fails it takes the company down with it, there would be extra risks that I wouldn't want to go near. White main character plus standard video game tropes x y and z and done. easy to sell to the money men in the company or other companies. Not saying I like it but I can understand why it happens.

 

[Sub_Level]

I think Raiden as a white male is probably somewhat responsible for the post-release ciriticism of Metal Gear Solid 2, and by extension, part of what makes Metal Gear Solid 2 Metal Gear Solid 2.

Solid Snake or Big Boss could be black, asian, or female, but what defines those characters would ultimately remain the same (hell, with MGS3, we essentially got one version of Big Boss as a female, although different in key areas of course). But if Raiden was a woman, would the MGS2 pushback have been as severe? One of the many complaints of his character is that he looked effeminate but wasn't actually a woman, so I doubt it. The masses would have been more accepting of a female protag, I think. Especially with the game's insistence on multiple cutscene butt closeups and a skin tight body suit. And if he was black? We probably might have gotten a pushback similar to what happened when the San Andreas protagonist was revealed to be black, but nothing as severe as the outcries of "pansy" or "whiner". Because he doesn't actually whine in all but a couple of small cutscenes (it's not actually a character trait of his), these complaints likely stemmed from his voice (especially compared to Snake's gruff voice) and, well, just look at him.

Hardly the look of a hero to a critically acclaimed action game. But a nerd (not node) trained in virtual reality combat simulations who thinks he's some hot shit? This character design totally fits the bill. Now what popular criticisms of MGS2 would remain the same if he was different? Obviously critiques of poor gameplay-cutscene ratio. That wouldn't have changed. Also for many people, being pulled away from Snake would have STILL served as a disappointment to many. Holistically, though, the reaction to MGS2, for better or worse (I think most would lean more towards worse but I personally love his character), would just not be the same if he wasn't a white male. Especially a white male with THAT haircut.

 

[ChawlieTheFair]

Maybe it would be better if the thread title was along the lines of Video game characters that wouldn't make sense/work if they weren't a "white male"

If the only thing changing is race, then Lee from Walking Dead? I can't think of many to be honest.

 

[MaulerX]

Does Master Chief count in this? Isn't he white? Unique in that the game sold millions without people knowing what he looked like under the armor (until Halo 4).

 

[Jado]

yeah but what are the stakes here if you fuck it up? is someone going to boycott your book? will you be laughed out of your industry? will people blog about how racist you are? will your story tank and take the livelihoods of people you work with down with you?

How often does any of what you described ever happen? Seems very rare to me. And when it does, the person usually did something so deliberately offensive, that the backlash is understandable. Terribly written minority characters are pretty common (e.g. Asian guy who's one-dimensionally techy or into martial arts/mysticism), and no one is losing a job over it. I say the risk of not simply writing about white dudes is minimal and worth it.

 

[Spring-Loaded]

Technically, the characters the OP is looking for are the ones that specifically do need to be white, to draw our attention to how many of them didn't need to be white. I think it's an interesting topic and do wish it had continued down that avenue. But between people repeatedly failing to understand that point and discussion like this, perhaps it isn't meant to be.

Yes, those are the examples the OP is asking for and the thread was born of the notion of creating a minority character is always met with "why do they need to be a minority?" while white characters are never challenged in that way. What I said the the thread is about is what it's about. You assuming my post was some kind of demand for white game writers to write nonwhite characters might be a sign this forum isn't ready to discuss the topic though, sure.

As to the rest, I am well aware of what people are trying to defend. I've said it before,

Then what's your problem with what I posted? This is all I've said so far, and nothing I've said defends/supports people saying that white male writers have or need to do anything in particular.

The rest of your post speaks from the perspective that that's what I'm saying. If you do have a problem with that sentiment, quote the people who have it and reply to them. Please don't conflate what I'm saying — there's nothing that requires people to write what they already know, nor is there good reason someone can't learn enough about another culture/nationality to properly write them — with what others may/may not be saying.

but it is unreasonable to think that white male writers in the videogame industry have some moral onus to differentiate themselves from the majority of other writers across the world and throughout history and occupy themselves with writing main characters that are not of their race and gender. That is not the norm in any major medium that I'm aware of. That is not to say I think it is bad for people to challenge themselves and write outside of their comfort zone, but if the story doesn't call for it I see absolutely no necessity for them to do so.

And there it is. Why are you saying this in response to what I said when nothing I posted says anything like this? If this sentiment is as big a problem as you make it out to be, surely you can find someone who's actually said this in this thread who you can quote/reply to.

EDIT: Really can't appreciate your point that the industry needs to be complacent with its current state rather than make some attempts at different characters either. Having more diversity in the industry and making a better effort to make more diverse game characters is not mutually exclusive, so we can quit acting like that's the case.

 

[Fried Food]

Theres no right or wrong way to be a white male, or any male, or any human.

 

[APF]

If people only wrote "what they know" we'd only have autobiographies. Fiction gives us room to write all sorts of characters and scenarios outside of our comfort zone. Saying anything else is literally saying there's no space for creativity in a fundamentally creative field.

 

[IcyStorm]

Maybe it would be better if the thread title was along the lines of Video game characters that wouldn't make sense/work if they weren't a "white male"

Agreed. The thread title and the question in the OP post (which they didn't even really answer himself) aren't asking the same thing. OP isn't asking for white males in gaming "done right," they're asking for what's stated in the edit: "white characters who are good, but contextually justify themselves."

Changing the race, ethnicity, or gender of many white, male characters wouldn't matter. How many times does Master Chief being a white male ever matter? Never. Is that a bad thing? Not at all! I don't think anyone's trying to say that Master Chief SHOULD have been a different race or gender. It's more of a "could have been" because there would be little to no change in how characters react to the Chief or what the Chief does. Same with Kyle Hyde (though I haven't played Cape West), Gordon Freeman, Joel from TLoU, and many more.

 

[milkham]

How often does any of what you described ever happen? Seems very rare to me. And when it does, the person usually did something so deliberately offensive, that the backlash is understandable. Terribly written minority characters are pretty common (e.g. Asian guy who's one-dimensionally techy or into martial arts/mysticism), and no one is losing a job over it. I say the risk of not simply writing about white dudes is minimal and worth it.

I guess you have a point. I can't think of an instance.
But no one gives a shit about poorly written Asian guys in any context, not just gaming.

 

[Jado]

A minority is more than a skin tone. There is culture and history. The less culture and history you are able to include, the more you are just reskinning or regendering a white male. Not what I consider representation.

A good author isn't interested in swapping the skin color on Joe Homebody and patting himself on the back for writing an authentic Indian-American. And if the race has absolutely no bearing on the story, a good author probably has better things to do than research Indian-Americans for no good reason. Go with what you know and tell the story you're actually interested in telling.

By the way: this is such bullshit, a cleverly worded version of "you need to justify minorities or else they have no place in the story." You're basically saying "American who lives in a quiet suburban town but has his life turned upside-down" is a viable story scenario for a white guy but not someone who's black, hispanic, etc. because REASONS -- setting up a perfect, exclusionary scenario where nearly all stories are about hetero white men.

You're right that there is a place for very well-written minority characters that accurately embody certain cultural aspects and properly represent a group's struggles, but there's also a place for a minority person who's just like any other person out there and not out to change the world with a social message. The default should be any ordinary "human," not "white guy in his late 20s."

 

[Chinpoko_Master]

I don't know, Rinoa looks pretty asian to me. I'm only bringing it up because I would imagine that many Japanese creators make their characters "asian" in their perspective but many in the west default them to "white" despite there not being evidence for it. It's an interesting situation.


Oh, then it seems kind of contrary to what the OP was asking about. The OP wasn't just asking for white characters that happened to be good characters.

You might be able to make that argument for anime, but when it comes to more realistic depictions of characters it doesn't work. Rinoa is probably the most asian looking character in FFVIII, but virtually everyone else looks white.

This isn't simply a matter of people in the west "defaulting" them to white. I mean, if you can look at characters like Squall, Zell, or Quistis and genuinely say that they look Asian to you then I don't know what to tell you. Asians aren't exactly known for their pale skin and light colored hair and eyes. But it's on record that Squall was modeled after River Phoenix, a white American actor so I don't think it's really up for debate...

 

[ishibear]

You can be accused of racism for anything, I'm not saying there is anything in your particular scenario that is. I agree with you for the most part and I do wish for more diversity and risk in game storylines/characters but its easier to take risks when you have more personal agency in something. A book, sure, but a AAA game studio? If i was a white guy at a studio where if my game fails it takes the company down with it, there would be extra risks that I wouldn't want to go near. White main character plus standard video game tropes x y and z and done. easy to sell to the money men in the company or other companies. Not saying I like it but I can understand why it happens.

The bolded is simply not true. You get accused of racism for doing racist acts or being racist.

An entire game studio is not at risk for making a game with a minority character or woman. If you're scared of too big of risks, don't make a AAA game. Start small and work from there. Eventually, you'll have a better idea of the reception to make bigger gambles.

The idea that this stuff is to be accepted or taken as law is what's upsetting. I don't understand why it happens. The creators of TLOU have taken mighty strides in the industry, as well as TWD. Who would have thought these games would be so well received when they're not typical dudebro stories?

Money be damned, the world needs more people ready to shake shit up. This dismissive attitude is so... ugh.

 

[Farks!]

I would have to say Heavy Rain's main character, Ethan Mars, is a white guy done right.

The reason being:
Recovering from one of his sons, Jason's death, gives us a psychological examination of the character in the game Heavy Rain. He couldn't bear to lose Shawn to the antics of the Origami Killer, who puts Ethan through so much.

Spoiler

In fact when Ethan loses Shawn, combined with his agoraphobia, he commits suicide, because the mental state to him was he couldn't save his own sons, and is their killer.

I found him extremely bland and boring, same with the FBI-agent. Cage can't write characters to save his life.


Anyway, my answer would problary have to be The Nameless One, if you can count him as a white male.

 

[ishibear]

I guess you have a point. I can't think of an instance.
But no one gives a shit about poorly written Asian guys in any context, not just gaming.

I do. ;33

That's why I work so hard with the character I described. I don't even know an Asian myself but the lack of representatives in media annoys me (and the fucking stereotypes are appalling at times).

I love variety, and not just for the hell of it. It's fun to tell stories about people different than yourself, tho I hardly feel like any of us are truly different. Maybe in our origins, but other than that, most of us live the same~ we get on GAF, play games, have money trouble, fuck up relationships, etc.

I refuse to stick to writing typical storylines. We need more variety so minority actors can get more roles in media. And to keep things fun.

@Jado thanks for covering me! :3

 

[poponon]

I think every single "white male in gaming" is done "right" because they were created as an individual's artistic vision and nothing more.

 

[flatearthpandas]

Like what? What do you possibly have to look up if you're writing about a character? Use YOUR imagination. It's your character. If you have no concept on the struggle minorities go thru, don't write about it. That shouldn't stop you from still being able to give them other background. What the hell are you implying? That every minority MUST be the same?

I'm different from an African American who's come here from Africa after growing up there. I was born here so I know nothing about the way of living in Africa outside of the news. They could tell you so much more than I because of that, and even I could learn from them. I'm just like a lot of Americans in that aspect, right?

That's because I AM an average American. I'm black. But the color of my skin doesn't define me, my story is different from the next person and theirs from mine. Pick which you find easier to work with.

Personally, I enjoy an opportunity to learn about others so I've got no problems asking people about their world and their perception of it. But if you find my average, boring American life easier to write, you're free to. It's realistic~ because I live it and many live similarly. But it's pretty lazy of you as a writer to take the easy route.

I'm curious where you got the impression I am trying to say that all minorities are the same? I'm saying the complete opposite. They are different. They are so wildly different that the chances are you don't even understand how they can differ from each or what that even means. You need to understand what those differences can be and what implications of those difference are. What generation out of what country of Africa? Immigrated when, what type of food do they eat there and what might have been brought over. What religion might have existed in the family history, etc. etc. etc. That doesn't mean the character can't talk with an American standard mid-west accent, play golf, and practice Judaism, but there is still a history that needs to be researched because a believable character would know about their own history and doesn't grow up in a white-washed vacuum.

I'm going to leave the rest alone specifically not to be hostile or dismissive. What I will say is that I hope your continue to pursue your interest in writing a story and I hope that as you grow you come to realize the importance of researching and creating as believable of characters as you are able.

 

[Barrow Roll]

I don't see what's so hard to understand.

Think of a white male character that fits into the game and role he was given because no one else could possibly replace him. He's that important for the story.

Example: Take RE4 for example. As much as I like Leon, if Luis had been the protagonist, it would have been more fitting. The entire setting is in a country full of Spanish speakers but we're sending in an American? Luis actually is Spanish. It makes more sense to send in someone to save Ashley who actually understands the language, doesn't it?

However, Luis doesn't fit this topic because he wasn't the main character, but the fact that Leon could have easily been replaced by him is a sign that Leon isn't a fitting white protagonist either (he could be easily replaced by anyone and nothing would change).

Had Luis been the main, he would be a great character for this thread. But unfortunately, he wasn't.

The goal is to find main white characters that are appropriate for their game and can't have their role replaced by just anyone.

An example would be if there was a game about a story of Vikings. I believe that would leave you with the possibility of a main character who is of Western European origin and therefore, not so easily replaced by any other ethnicity (or gender due to the customs).

You have a good grasp on what the OP is asking, and I agree with the others points you've raised in the thread, but the example of Resident Evil 4 is a bit off base.

The story is that the daughter of the President of the United States of America has been kidnapped. Saddler's goal was to use Ashley to spread the Las Plagas in America and bring about its downfall because he hated the arrogant US and how they were always trying to police the world. Leon being an American sent in by the American government to rescue the American presidents daughter, who then discovers a plot by a man with a vendetta against America is justified. Did Leon necessarily need to be white? No, since American isn't an ethnicity, but I'd argue that when the rest of globe, including Saddler, thinks of the average arrogant American they're most likely thinking of a white male. Leon being a white male is a good foil to Saddler's plot and hatred for America. Leon not being able to speak Spanish just kind of makes him a shitty secret agent is all.

Luis, or another native Spaniard could have been the main protag, but then we'd have to question why the American government would send a non-american to retrieve of the president's daughter, and Saddler's plot might not give a non-american the same sense of urgency to save their homeland. These plots point would probably be changed to better serve the main protagonists' motivations and the context of the rest of the story,

I'd say Booker Dewitt from Bioshock Infinite is justified in being white; the story as it is told in the game would not have worked with any other race of character.

Considering the incredibly racist nature of Columbia, Booker probably would have been apprehended the moment he touched down on Columbia if he wasn't white and the events of the game wouldn't have unfolded in the same way. Booker's emotional turmoil is a direct result of

Spoiler

the atrocities he committed at Wounded Knee, and as far I know, he wouldn't have been there if he wasn't a white soldier.

Comstock would not

Spoiler

exist if not for the baptism which would not have happened if Booker wasn't at Wounded Knee.

Booker's

Spoiler

gambling problem which led him to giving away his daughter to repay a debt is also a direct result of being at Wounded Knee.

 

[BassForever]

Some people here are having a really hard time grasping the concept which is sad because this is actually a very interesting point of conversation.

I'm going to nominate the protagonist of Suikoden 1 Tir as my white male done right. He's born into privilege the son of a great general in the empire surrounded by servants and has a great life. However once he wanders outside and sees the corruption and poor treatment by the imperials towards foreigners and the poor, he begins to question this and when push comes to shove he aligns himself against the empire and becomes the leader of the resistance movement.

Yes Tir is a silent protagonist, but his actions and the way others react really helps drive the story. He's treated differently at first because he's a white privilege born imperial not just by the imperials but by members of the resistance who don't trust him becomes of his lineage and race. Changing his race would completely alter the story, gender is a little more iffy though due to the setting and time period the game takes place it'd be questionable if Tir would have become a trained soldier had he been a girl though I think this topic was focused more on race and less on gender.

 

[someday]

I'm curious where you got the impression I am trying to say that all minorities are the same? I'm saying the complete opposite. They are different. They are so wildly different that the chances are you don't even understand how they can differ from each or what that even means. You need to understand what those differences can be and what implications of those difference are. What generation out of what country of Africa? Immigrated when, what type of food do they eat there and what might have been brought over. What religion might have existed in the family history, etc. etc. etc. That doesn't mean the character can't talk with an American standard mid-west accent, play golf, and practice Judaism, but there is still a history that needs to be researched because a believable character would know about their own history and doesn't grow up in a white-washed vacuum.

I'm going to leave the rest alone specifically not to be hostile or dismissive. What I will say is that I hope your continue to pursue your interest in writing a story and I hope that as you grow you come to realize the importance of researching and creating as believable of characters as you are able.

I think you're going a bit overboard about how different some of us are. I'm black, descendant from slaves, and have no freaking idea what African country my ancestors were from. You are assuming some difference that isn't really there. Yeah, my family might have eaten a few different sides during Thanksgiving than your family, but on any given evening I'm sure my middle class family was doing regular American middle class shit. You don't need to do massive research to include a character that isn't a straight white man. Why are some of you making this seem so incredibly difficult? We're not aliens.

 

[Hypron]

All this "Spanish people aren't white" talk is hurting my head. If ethnic Spaniards aren't white then ethnic French people aren't white either for example.

Does white mean "anglo-saxon" to some people on this board?

 

[Dennis]

All this "Spanish people aren't white" talk is hurting my head. If ethnic Spaniards aren't white then ethnic French people aren't white either for example.

Does white mean "anglo-saxon" to some people on this board?

Spanish people are White Europeans.

Americans get confused because over there the term is also used for Spanish-speaking non-White latinos from Mexico and South America.