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[TrojanAg]

Under Hitler you basically had to kill or be killed.

Sounds like he had a choice in the matter, and he chose to kill.

 

[Angel_DvA]

He won't get any sympathy from me.

Same.

 

[Ogodei]

No Matt Groening and/or Simpsons jokes yet. Dang.

You can't make the Holocaust funny. The big mistake of "Life is Beautiful."

On topic: I can see both sides of this. Genocide is like *the* crime where i could see no possible cause for clemency. The world said "never again" after the Holocaust and... didn't really hold to that, but they should at least try to do so. There's symbolic value in imprisoning him, even if he's a harmless old man.

But at the same time, guy never would've gotten caught if he hadn't tried to atone for his crimes.

 

[Username1198]

The living who value the memory of the dead, sure..
The dead won't gain anything from this.

I don't know if imprisoning a 96 year old guy will accomplish anything.
I won't attempt talk anyone out of it either, though. He did enough to deserve it.

Accomplish anything? Are you serious? What about Justice? He was a fucking nazi who was An accessory to the murder of 300,000 people! He doesn't get a pass cause he's old fuck him.

He needs to go to jail for the rest of his life

 

[cartographer]

The living who value the memory of the dead, sure..
The dead won't gain anything from this.

I don't know if imprisoning a 96 year old guy will accomplish anything.
I won't attempt talk anyone out of it either, though. He did enough to deserve it.

Being 96 is pretty much only relevant in that he effectively got away with it for his whole life. His victims and the family of his victims didn't.

 

[Quixzlizx]

You can't make the Holocaust funny. The big mistake of "Life is Beautiful."

On topic: I can see both sides of this. Genocide is like *the* crime where i could see no possible cause for clemency. The world said "never again" after the Holocaust and... didn't really hold to that, but they should at least try to do so. There's symbolic value in imprisoning him, even if he's a harmless old man.

But at the same time, guy never would've gotten caught if he hadn't tried to atone for his crimes.

Isn't taking responsibility for your actions part of atonement?

 

[traveler]

This seems like a pretty clear litmus test for determining an individual's view of the primary purpose of jail: punishment or rehabilitation. Obviously, it's meant to serve both to some capacity, but I tend to fall on the side of rehabilitation, so I'd say he should go free at this point. Additionally, no one benefits from this- society loses his activism, he's clearly a different person than he was when the crimes were committed and has even incriminated himself with his activism so there's little repair to be done to his character, those who suffered are either dead or won't receive reparations/benefits in any way from his incarceration, and taxpayers will have to foot the bill for the remainder of his days. Vengeance and anger are the only beneficiaries of this man going to jail now.

Accomplish anything? Are you serious? What about Justice? He was a fucking nazi who was An accessory to the murder of 300,000 people! He doesn't get a pass cause he's old fuck him.

He needs to go to jail for the rest of his life

Justice is far more forgiving and concerned with redemption than you're making it out to be.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Justice is justice, even if he is old. The survivors of those horrors and the families of the ones that didn't make it deserve to see justice served.

 

[PackerinMN]

What a ridiculous statement. Give the gun to the descendants or relatives of someone who died in the camp he worked at.

Fucking SS defence force gimme a break.



I can't believe some of the posts in here.

Show me where I defended the SS. I'm fine with him being locked up. You want to execute old men.

 

[OriginofHysteria]

Meh I don't think he should go to prison but whatever. It seems like what had happened during his time as a guard there has haunted him throughout his life. I mean a Junior SS leader, guy was definitely caught up in his ambition. Good for him though on challenging Holocaust deniers.

 

[Ryuukan]

This seems like a pretty clear litmus test for determining an individual's view of the primary purpose of jail: punishment or rehabilitation. Obviously, it's meant to serve both to some capacity, but I tend to fall on the side of rehabilitation, so I'd say he should go free at this point. Additionally, no one benefits from this- society loses his activism, he's clearly a different person than he was when the crimes were committed and has even incriminated himself with his activism so there's little repair to be done to his character, those who suffered are either dead or won't receive reparations/benefits in any way from his incarceration, and taxpayers will have to foot the bill for the remainder of his days. Vengeance and anger are the only beneficiaries of this man going to jail now.

'he beat the system, he won, leave the poor nazi alone'

 

[Robdraggoo]

From interviews the man had no remorse about the atrocities he was a willing participant of, and no sympathy for the families of his victims.

 

[LegitMcfalls]

The old "just following orders"

He got to live a full life, unlike the people he robbed and sent to slaughter

If Trump tomorrow issues a military draft tomorrow to fight the north koreans and the general says "Slayven your in charge of the book keeping at our prison/death camps and if you dont like your job, you and your family will be put in the prison/death camp". It was a messed up time. As horrible as it was I have a hard time blaming the soldiers when they were just carrying out the orders from their homicidal maniac leaders.

 

[Alligatorjandro]

Good. Fuck him.

 

[Psychoward]

You can't make the Holocaust funny. The big mistake of "Life is Beautiful."

On topic: I can see both sides of this. Genocide is like *the* crime where i could see no possible cause for clemency. The world said "never again" after the Holocaust and... didn't really hold to that, but they should at least try to do so. There's symbolic value in imprisoning him, even if he's a harmless old man.

But at the same time, guy never would've gotten caught if he hadn't tried to atone for his crimes.

I don't think you understood the point of that movie...

anyway yeah I missed that he was an SS junior squad leader, there goes the whole unwilling participant angle as well

I'm fine with either decision really at this point

 

[Frozenprince]

There are no "amends" for being directly complicit in genocide.

 

[Westbahnhof]

Accomplish anything? Are you serious? What about Justice? He was a fucking nazi who was An accessory to the murder of 300,000 people! He doesn't get a pass cause he's old fuck him.

He needs to go to jail for the rest of his life

Like I said, I can agree.
I'm just saying that imprisoning someone this age in Germany is probably very much like sending him to an old folks home.
I doubt it's the punishment people like you want. That's why I don't see the point.

Being 96 is pretty much only relevant in that he effectively got away with it for his whole life. His victims and the family of his victims didn't.

See above.

 

[cartographer]

If Trump tomorrow issues a military draft tomorrow to fight the north koreans and the general says "Slayven your in charge of the book keeping at our prison/death camps and if you dont like your job, you and your family will be put in the prison/death camp". It was a messed up time. As horrible as it was I have a hard time blaming the soldiers when they were just carrying out the orders from their homicidal maniac leaders.

He wasn't just a soldier though.

 

[Trojita]

Justice is justice, even if he is old. The survivors of those horrors and the families of the ones that didn't make it deserve to see justice served.

Justice for you, Germany, Israel, the dead, or the survivors?

Reacting to the sentence, Auschwitz survivor Eva Mozes Kor said that she was "disappointed" adding: "They are trying to teach a lesson that if you commit such a crime, you will be punished. But I do not think the court has acted properly in sentencing him to four years in jail. It is too late for that kind of sentence... My preference would have been to sentence him to community service by speaking out against neo-Nazis. I would like the court to prove to me, a survivor, how four years in jail will benefit anybody." Gröning's defence lawyer, Hans Holtermann, was quoted as saying that he would review the verdict before deciding whether to appeal

 

[Psychoward]

If Trump tomorrow issues a military draft tomorrow to fight the north koreans and the general says "Slayven your in charge of the book keeping at our prison/death camps and if you dont like your job, you and your family will be put in the prison/death camp". It was a messed up time. As horrible as it was I have a hard time blaming the soldiers when they were just carrying out the orders from their homicidal maniac leaders.

That is not really a good comparison at all.

 

[Username1198]

There are no "amends" for being directly complicit in genocide.

But he's old! He was haunted by his old life! He's against genocide now! It won't accomplish anything!

Like I said, I can agree.
I'm just saying that imprisoning someone this age in Germany is probably very much like sending him to an old folks home.
I doubt it's the punishment people like you want. That's why I don't see the point.



See above.

I can see your point of view. Are German prisons nice lol?im Not familiar at all.

 

[Ryuukan]

If Trump tomorrow issues a military draft tomorrow to fight the north koreans and the general says "Slayven your in charge of the book keeping at our prison/death camps and if you dont like your job, you and your family will be put in the prison/death camp". It was a messed up time. As horrible as it was I have a hard time blaming the soldiers when they were just carrying out the orders from their homicidal maniac leaders.

holy shit he was SS
stop

 

[RMI]

if he's fit to go to prison, send him to prison. seems pretty straight-forward. It's nice that he came out against holocaust deniers but it doesn't erase his crimes.

 

[Slayven]

If Trump tomorrow issues a military draft tomorrow to fight the north koreans and the general says "Slayven your in charge of the book keeping at our prison/death camps and if you dont like your job, you and your family will be put in the prison/death camp". It was a messed up time. As horrible as it was I have a hard time blaming the soldiers when they were just carrying out the orders from their homicidal maniac leaders.

Yeah because the USA will be pulling the gold teeth and picking the pockets of dead north koreans

Keep defending nazis

 

[excelsiorlef]

You can't atone for being a literal SS Member, a Literal Nazi, who literally participated in the Holocaust.


No amount of I feel bad washes that away.

End of story.

 

[Switch Back 9]

Show me where I defended the SS. I'm fine with him being locked up. You want to execute old men.

Dude was a willing participant in genocide, a horrendous war crime, absolutely fine with him being executed it doesn't matter how fucking old he is, is there a statute of limitations on genocide?

 

[OriginofHysteria]

Yeah because the USA will be pulling the gold teeth and picking the pockets of dead north koreans

Keep defending nazis

I mean we already did that in WW2.

 

[CFMOORE!]

I like they are still chasing these dudes down, they should never rest for what they were a part of.

If the USA had did something similar after the Civil War, the USA would probably be a lot better off.

i am gonna start writing this to compete against Confederate and Black America

 

[Amory]

But he's old! He was haunted by his old life! He's against genocide now! It won't accomplish anything!

The argument is more about what society gets out of him being free vs. him being in prison. No one's saying he's a good person.

If he's out he does what he can at his age to shut down holocaust deniers.
Throw him in jail and everyone feels good for 5 seconds because "justice prevailed".

I think we benefit more from scenario A, but again, it's not an argument I'm super passionate about.

 

[KillerMan91]

He was an SS officer, not a random civilian/grunt.

You do know what the SS was, yes?

Yeah... I always thought you didn't become SS by keeping your head down and just carrying out orders.

From 1944 onwards people were also drafted to SS but yeah Gröning joined in 1940 voluntarily.

 

[cartographer]

Like I said, I can agree.
I'm just saying that imprisoning someone this age in Germany is probably very much like sending him to an old folks home.
I doubt it's the punishment people like you want. That's why I don't see the point.



See above.

The only reason it's like that is because he successfully evaded his crimes for most of his life. Luke yeah, I don't think the prison sentence ultimately means anything similar to what it would be if he was serving it in the prime of his life, do from that specific angle "I don't see the point" either, but he still did this. And his skill at evading prosecution for so long doesn't change that.

 

[ebullientprism]

I dont know. I agree with both sides of the argument on this one.

I dont think this guy is worried about that prison term either.

You say this with the understanding that he would probably have been shot if he didn't follow orders, yes?

I am like 99% sure I remember reading in Ordinary men that that line of reasoning was statistically false. Most (almost all?) Germans in the military or the MP that declined orders to murder or assist in the murder of civilians weren't shot or imprisoned.

Chances are the worst thing that would have happened to him if he refused to be put up at Auschwitz was a transfer to the Eastern front or something.

If Trump tomorrow issues a military draft tomorrow to fight the north koreans and the general says "Slayven your in charge of the book keeping at our prison/death camps and if you dont like your job, you and your family will be put in the prison/death camp". It was a messed up time. As horrible as it was I have a hard time blaming the soldiers when they were just carrying out the orders from their homicidal maniac leaders.

Again, not true. I have NEVER read of documented cases where soldiers and their families were sent to death camps for defying orders to murder civilians.

 

[Paz]

I don't know if sympathy is the right word but if the info in the OP/article is right it seems like society and the families of the victims are better served by this persons actions as a rehabilitated old man who calls neo nazi holocaust deniers out on their shit?

Still, it's an injustice he wasn't put away earlier, so I guess it could go either way on this one.

 

[phisheep]

This seems like a pretty clear litmus test for determining an individual's view of the primary purpose of jail: punishment or rehabilitation. Obviously, it's meant to serve both to some capacity, but I tend to fall on the side of rehabilitation, so I'd say he should go free at this point. Additionally, no one benefits from this- society loses his activism, he's clearly a different person than he was when the crimes were committed and has even incriminated himself with his activism so there's little repair to be done to his character, those who suffered are either dead or won't receive reparations/benefits in any way from his incarceration, and taxpayers will have to foot the bill for the remainder of his days. Vengeance and anger are the only beneficiaries of this man going to jail now.

Punishment and rehabilitation are not the only purposes of criminal punishment. There's also (amongst others not relevant here) the sending of a message to broader society - deterrence. The message here is that if you are an accessory to mass murder you will not ever be free from the threat of punishment. On the whole, I think this is the right message to be sent.

 

[Westbahnhof]

From 1944 onwards people were also drafted to SS but yeah Gröning joined in 1940 voluntarily.

Thanks, it's shameful, but for an Austrian, I really don't know enough about the war.
Loads of stuff my grandfather (not a nazi and against the war, beaten until he joined the Hitler youth, drafted into the army, captured at the front, POW for 6 years) told me, many details, but not enough historical facts.

The only reason it's like that is because he successfully evaded his crimes for most of his life. Luke yeah, I don't think the prison sentence ultimately means anything similar to what it would be if he was serving it in the prime of his life, do from that specific angle "I don't see the point" either, but he still did this. And his skill at evading prosecution for so long doesn't change that.

That's why I said I wouldn't try to talk anyone out of wanting him to go to prison.
I wouldn't send him (just google image search "german prison", it's so nice) because I'd view it as a waste of money for such little effect, but I agree that the man deserves proper punishment.
Don't see it happening in this lifetime though.

 

[Trojita]

Punishment and rehabilitation are not the only purposes of criminal punishment. There's also (amongst others not relevant here) the sending of a message to broader society - deterrence. The message here is that if you are an accessory to mass murder you will not ever be free from the threat of punishment. On the whole, I think this is the right message to be sent.

The message, if intended that way, is hollow with events that have occurred since WW2.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Justice for you, Germany, Israel, the dead, or the survivors?

The people who died, the survivors and the families. Of course some might not agree with the sentence. But the justice system is not built around that. You can't just have a victim say "I don't want that man sentenced" and the court goes along with it. That is very open to abuse.

 

[devanie1]

If Trump tomorrow issues a military draft tomorrow to fight the north koreans and the general says "Slayven your in charge of the book keeping at our prison/death camps and if you dont like your job, you and your family will be put in the prison/death camp". It was a messed up time. As horrible as it was I have a hard time blaming the soldiers when they were just carrying out the orders from their homicidal maniac leaders.

"We are often compelled to set up standards we cannot reach ourselves, and to lay down rules which we could not ourselves satisfy"

 

[traveler]

Punishment and rehabilitation are not the only purposes of criminal punishment. There's also (amongst others not relevant here) the sending of a message to broader society - deterrence. The message here is that if you are an accessory to mass murder you will not ever be free from the threat of punishment. On the whole, I think this is the right message to be sent.

While I'm skeptical of the effects of punishment as deterrent, I think that's a far more reasonable stance on it. Fair point.

 

[Shahadan]

People are crazy dumb everytime something like this comes up, holy shit.

Anyway people who were younger and have done worse have been freed from prison before because of old age or health, this alone should hang in the balance somewhere or maybe it was disregarded.
Also the mention about his activism against holocaust denial basically not being taken into consideration is a bit weird to me. Surely it doesn't absolve but it shouldn't be dismissed either when on trial

 

[Fisty]

Glad he was trying to raise awareness more recently, but yeah he's going to have to take that one on the chin. Honestly, if he has any shred of humanity left, prison is probably not much of a punishment after facing what he was a part of.

 

[Username1198]

He can just continue to speak out against holocaust deniers from jail through YouTube videos. It's a fair compromise.

 

[Trojita]

Edit: I was mistaken about one fact.

 

[excelsiorlef]

The argument is more about what society gets out of him being free vs. him being in prison. No one's saying he's a good person.

If he's out he does what he can at his age to shut down holocaust deniers.
Throw him in jail and everyone feels good for 5 seconds because "justice prevailed".

I think we benefit more from scenario A, but again, it's not an argument I'm super passionate about.

Society gets nothing out of him being free.

He can still speak out against denialism in prison.

 

[SilentRob]

If Trump tomorrow issues a military draft tomorrow to fight the north koreans and the general says "Slayven your in charge of the book keeping at our prison/death camps and if you dont like your job, you and your family will be put in the prison/death camp". It was a messed up time. As horrible as it was I have a hard time blaming the soldiers when they were just carrying out the orders from their homicidal maniac leaders.

Finally someone explaining the german people and justice system how it really was back then. Thank you! A few facts about this man:

He joined the NSDAP in 1939. He joined the SS out of his own free will in 1940. Himmler asked anyone interested in joining the SS to leave the evangelical church, so he did, again, out of his own free will. A great quote from this nice man:

After witnessing this, Gröning claims he went to his boss and told him that he could not work at Auschwitz anymore, stating that if the extermination of the Jews is necessary, "then at least it should be done within a certain framework."

He was not forced to be a Nazi or work at Auschwitz.

 

[jtb]

He never served justice. He should serve it now.

If Trump tomorrow issues a military draft tomorrow to fight the north koreans and the general says "Slayven your in charge of the book keeping at our prison/death camps and if you dont like your job, you and your family will be put in the prison/death camp". It was a messed up time. As horrible as it was I have a hard time blaming the soldiers when they were just carrying out the orders from their homicidal maniac leaders.

so, again, just following orders.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

He's 96, served as a PoW laborer already and then outed himself again just to fight deniers

Meh

I have to agree with this.

 

[PackerinMN]

Dude was a willing participant in genocide, a horrendous war crime, absolutely fine with him being executed it doesn't matter how fucking old he is, is there a statute of limitations on genocide?

There isn't a statute of limitations on genocide, hence he'll most likely die in prison.

I'm just not all for executing people like SS Nazis. Two wrongs don't make a right and all that jazz.

 

[excelsiorlef]

The message that needs to be sent is this: No Matter what you do in life after, participating in an actual genocide cannot be forgiven even if you're 96 and feel bad about it

 

[KillerMan91]

I am like 99% sure I remember reading in Ordinary men that that line of reasoning was statistically false. Most (almost all?) Germans in the military or the MP that declined orders to murder or assist in the murder of civilians weren't shot or imprisoned.

Chances are the worst thing that would have happened to him if he refused to be put up at Auschwitz was a transfer to the Eastern front or something.

Well yeah and considering the meatgrinder eastern front was the choice was pretty easy for those that could choose. Your own survival goes ahead of survival of others with almost everyone.