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[Tinfoilhatsron]

Yeah because the USA will be pulling the gold teeth and picking the pockets of dead north koreans

Keep defending nazis

Aw man, nice joke!

Oh wait, you're serious? Let me introduce you to a thing called the Vietnam War. Or the Korean conflict. Or hell we have examples of stuff happening in the Iraq war. Or in WW2 if we want to keep timelines.

Edit: If you want I can link Wiki articles to stuff like the My Lai Massacre.

Don't ever think that the 'good' guys in wars didn't do digusting, monsterous stuff even if they are foot soldiers.

 

[Iva Demilcol]

Let me understand this:

1. The man was caught and imprisoned in another country for his war crimes. (If his crimes were severe he would've been given the death sentence)

2. He learned about Holocaust deniers and decided to fight that

3. Because he spoke against the Nazis, he revealed his status as an ex SS officer and he is being prosecuted again for the same crimes.

4. He was sentenced to 4 years in prison because his crimes as an SS officer now that he's 96.



At this point, he was judged by the same crimes twice and the sentence is not even that severe. He's being helping the fight against Holocaust deniers... I really don't think this 4 years of prison will help something tbh.

 

[Westbahnhof]

Justice is not inherently about punishment. The satisfying act is not necessarily the morally proper thing to do.

And, look, thinking this man should go to prison is a totally fair position and I don't have an issue with folks believing that, even if I disagree, but I don't appreciate this:

This stuff is super reductive and borderline thread shitting. Just because a Nazi is involved doesn't erase all nuance from a story. And the primary debate- which is evident if you read the thread- isn't about whether or not Nazis were just, but what constitutes justice and the proper fulfillment of it.

Well put.
Just for everyone requesting prison, be aware that something like this might be what he ends up in:

(probably not AS nice, but it's much nicer than you probably think and want)

 

[Cocaloch]

Justice isn't about what society is best served by. It's about.....punishing the transgressor.

lol

 

[ClosingADoor]

For only a select few Nazi's, but that was right after the war.

And it was a disgrace how many got away because we shifted focus from the nazi's to the communists. Good that they at least sentence some of them still when possible.

Well put.
Just for everyone requesting prison, be aware that something like this might be what he ends up in:
http://cbsnews3.cbsistatic.com/hub/...f168c5b0264b2412ca4fb2e65fdc77/prisonmain.jpg

(probably not AS nice, but it's much nicer than you probably think and want)

And that is fine. No reason to put people behind literal bars in a dark dungeon. Dude is 96, so of course he will be treated as such during his sentence and receive the attention that is needed due to his age.

 

[Conciliator]

a great opportunity for everyone to really, really prove how definitely, definitely, definitely against nazis they are.

 

[Air Zombie Meat]

Why do you think this law was written in the first place?

I don't know what law you're referring to.

 

[Trojita]

There's people saying he didn't directly kill anyone or there's no evidence.

No one ever said he killed anyone. They are saying he's accessory. All of the testimony at court was about Auschwitz in general.

Are you going to be surprised if I tell you that some modern military members only ever sit in front of a computer? There's all kinds of jobs in a military organization. Those clerks like him wouldn't see front line battle and there is a low chance they would have killed someone.

 

[jtb]

Let me understand this:

1. The man was caught and imprisoned in another country for his war crimes. (If his crimes were severe he would've been given the death sentence)

2. He learned about Holocaust deniers and decided to fight that

3. Because he spoke against the Nazis, he revealed his status as an ex SS officer and he is being prosecuted again for the same crimes.

4. He was sentenced to 4 years in prison because his crimes as an SS officer now that he's 96.



At this point, he was judged by the same crimes twice and the sentence is not even that severe. He's being helping the fight against Holocaust deniers... I really don't think this 4 years of prison will help something tbh.

When was he ever prosecuted for these crimes? I see no evidence of this in the OP

I don't know what law you're referring to.

The German statute under which he's being prosecuted.

 

[Subpar Spatula]

This is not addressed to me, but I have a comment:

I consider myself pretty knowledgeable in general history and geo-politics of the 20ieth Century, but your comment made me research a bit further and I never notice the SS were apart form the Nazi military. I mean, I knew the SS started as paramilitary, but I figured they had merged with the military after. Conclusion is I was wrong, the SS really always were a disgusting ideological group. So yeah, in this case Oskar Groening doesn't seem like he was as forced as some make it out to be.

Yeah, the SS were just a racially motivated branch of the government that had many subsections from police, detection, intelligence, camp management, racial policy, army, etc. I think a lot of people don't realize that being SS was less about military and more about ideology and you could become SS pretty easily. You just needed hate, drive, and a little skill.

Dude walked right into a hate club, participated, didn't like the death (but didn't care as long as he wasn't part of it), and doesn't seem remorseful at all.

He could say whatever he wants, he just wanted to make sure people didn't forget what he participated in.

 

[Tonedeff]

Wait, did he actually kill anyone? Or is this a guilt by association type thing?

 

[D4Danger]

you don't get to buy back your soul. He should be executed but we don't do that any more so prison it is.

 

[nded]

I can respect his work against Holocaust denial, but I think the sentence is fair. Surely he's prepared for it seeing as he basically provided testimony and evidence against himself.

 

[QuantumBro]

Aw man, nice joke!

Oh wait, you're serious? Let me introduce you to a thing called the Vietnam War. Or the Korean conflict. Or hell we have examples of stuff happening in the Iraq war. Or in WW2 if we want to keep timelines.

You're going to have to find a comic book on the subject if you want him to learn about it.

 

[GoodCoffeeJoey]

Aw man, nice joke!

Oh wait, you're serious? Let me introduce you to a thing called the Vietnam War. Or the Korean conflict. Or hell we have examples of stuff happening in the Iraq war. Or in WW2 if we want to keep timelines.

Edit: If you want I can link Wiki articles to stuff like the My Lai Massacre.

Don't ever think that the 'good' guys in wars didn't do digusting, monsterous even if they are foot soldiers.

Are you seriously comparing the Vietnam and Korean wars to the Holocaust? And I though the 'just following orders' Nazi apologia was bad.

 

[Tal Shiar Agent]

Or any kind of scientist. Operation Paper Clip and then the agreement to let the Japanese military members go after they inflicted beyond horrific human torture is a stain.

The net benefits of Paperclip (specifically) to humanity outweigh the lack of punishment they received.


The Unit 731 members should have been executed after their research was seized though.

 

[Subpar Spatula]

I can respect his work against Holocaust denial, but I think the sentence is fair. Surely he's prepared for it seeing as he personally provided testimony and evidence against himself.

Does he seem remorseful about all? I think he was a bit salty people were trying to erase what he and his friends did.

 

[Bubba_Sparks]

The war is over, pack it up, war crimes are forgiven /s

The war ended over 50 years ago. If this guy was still out their spewing Nazi rhetoric I would totally agree with punishing him as it would indicate he didn't learn from his past mistakes. Throwing him in jail now after so much time, at such an old age when he had spoken out against holocaust deniers doesn't sound like justice to me.

 

[Ryuukan]

I did no such thing. Shame on you for deliberately misrepresenting what I said, which is disagreeing with someone who claimed justice served only one purpose (to be punitive). I wasn't even talking about this particular case, FFS.

your previous post in the thread is showing otherwise, but ok

the next stage after this philosophical contemplation of justice for an SS member going by the posts here will be "The holocaust really wasn't as bad as people say, its a lot of hyperbole"

 

[Gordon Shumway]

The dead?

 

[Trojita]

When was he ever prosecuted for these crimes? I see no evidence of this in the OP

He wasn't. Whether being a POW is punishment is up in the air. He was moved to combat and then captured by the British. He lied and said he was with the SS Economics and Administrative office. He knew that mentioning the SS unit he was assigned to or mentioning Auschwitz would be worse.

 

[Tonedeff]

your previous post in the thread is showing otherwise, but ok

the next stage after this philosophical contemplation of justice for an SS member going by the posts here will be "The holocaust really wasn't as bad as people say, its a lot of hyperbole"

Really?

 

[Cocaloch]

No, it's not.

I mean it clearly is for at least some countries. I have no idea why you would deny that.

The only reason why the state is even vested with the power to strip a citizen of its rights is because they have violated a law and broken their social contract with the state.

Historically this is obviously bunk. You can be a Hobbsian if you want from a theoretical standpoint, but lets not act like that has explanatory powers about the origins of state power.

Upholding and executing laws - and punishing violators - is definitionally retributive justice.

Sometimes it is sometimes it isn't.

But justice can serve many functions and take many forms.

This is basically what he was saying....

 

[Bubba_Sparks]

The net benefits of Paperclip (specifically) to humanity outweigh the lack of punishment they received.


The Unit 731 members should have been executed after their research was seized though.

That's an absurd double standard. If one Nazi is guilty of war crimes, all of them are guilty of war crimes. How can you arbitrary pick and choose based on their "contributions" to humanity?

 

[ClosingADoor]

The war ended over 50 years ago. If this guy was still out their spewing Nazi rhetoric I would totally agree with punishing him as it would indicate he didn't learn from his past mistakes. Throwing him in jail now after so much time, at such an old age when he had spoken out against holocaust deniers doesn't sound like justice to me.

Where is the limit? At 86? 76? 66? At what age are you too old to be tried for being part of a genocide? After how many years do we move on? 50? 40? 30?

There are no lines here, neither should there be.

 

[AllIsOneIsNone]

I did no such thing. Shame on you for deliberately misrepresenting what I said, which is disagreeing with someone who claimed justice served only one purpose (to be punitive). I wasn't even talking about this particular case, FFS.


And? In many countries (here on Earth, I swear) prison is intended to be for rehabilitation more than for punishment.


I'm not sure what you are disagreeing with me for. I agree justice can serve many functions and take many forms. I was disagreeing with someone who claimed that justice served only one purpose, which was to punish.


Edit:

Thank you.

I could be wrong, but you seem like a bit of devils advocate kinda dude. Which is fine, it gives you unique perspectives, but it's like you've forgotten your history lessons, all current systems of punishment in place and why they exist, and instead chose stripped down logic to compose an argument that while it may have it's place in the philosophy classroom, contains no decipherable pragmatic value toward the issue at hand. I award you no points, and may only Nazi Germany have mercy on your soul (kidding).

 

[iPaul93]

What's the point?He's 96 years old.Let him die in peace.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

your previous post in the thread is showing otherwise, but ok

What post? The post where I agreed with someone's indifference over locking up a 96 year old guy who outed himself? That's what you think shows I'm in favour of running away from justice? Good grief.

the next stage after this philosophical contemplation of justice for an SS member going by the posts here will be "The holocaust really wasn't as bad as people say, its a lot of hyperbole"

....Yeah, I can see you are not remotely interested in discussing this in good faith.

I could be wrong, but you seem like a bit of devils advocate kinda dude. Which is fine, it gives you unique perspectives, but it's like you've forgotten your history lessons, all current systems of punishment in place and why they're in place, and in place of all that chose stripped down logic to compose an argument that while it may have it's place in the philosophy classroom, has no pragmatic value toward this topic that I am able to decipher. I award you no points, and may only Nazi Germany have mercy on your soul (kidding).

???
What a confusing, incoherent post...

 

[Drencrom]

He took part in genocide, he shouldn't be exempt a prison sentence just because of his age. The message here is that genocide and mass murder is punishable no matter what. At least he did good by speaking up about it and was an activist against holocaust denial and now is accepting his prison sentence gracefully.

Also, german prison isn't inhumane like in the states, so no need to worry that he'll live the rest of his life there without dignity or whatever.

 

[krishian]

Justice isn't about what society is best served by. It's about.....punishing the transgressor.

That's the most American thing I've read in a while. Such a damaging view...

 

[Trojita]

Does he seem remorseful about all? I think he was a bit salty people were trying to erase what he and his friends did.

Dude read his background. He was mad people were denying the holocaust atrocities and being pro Neo-Nazi.

 

[D4Danger]

That's an absurd double standard. If one Nazi is guilty of war crimes, all of them are guilty of war crimes. How can you arbitrary pick and choose based on their "contributions" to humanity?

the Nazi's concentration camps weren't a military operation they were secret, hidden in the middle of nowhere and covered up because everyone involved knew what it was.

 

[Username1198]

What's the point?He's 96 years old.Let him die in peace.

🤔

 

[Tinfoilhatsron]

Are you seriously comparing the Vietnam and Korean wars to the Holocaust? And I though the 'just following orders' Nazi apologia was bad.

Oh yeah I sure said that. Damn you caught me. I totally just compared the Holocaust to the wars. Not the fact that American infrantrymen participated in mudering and torturing innocents, taking 'prizes' and 'trophies' fashioned from the dead. Which I suspect will happen in the next war conflict and the hypotetical situation in which America invades NK.

Why don't you read the comment I made next time.

Maybe I was a bit too touchy about that, and I apologize for it. But what the hell are you talking about? I never apologized for Nazis at all.

 

[Hektor]

Does he seem remorseful about all? I think he was a bit salty people were trying to erase what he and his friends did.

"His lawyer later said Groening felt he could "only ask" God for forgiveness because the crimes committed at Auschwitz were "on such a scale that he can't expect either the victims or their relatives to even think about the question of forgiveness."

That's about the closest there is to a statement

 

[johancruijff]

His responsibilities included counting and sorting the money taken from prisoners, and he was in charge of the personal property prisoners had arrived with.

should have sent the CV somewhere in Switzerland

 

[phisheep]

Let me understand this:

1. The man was caught and imprisoned in another country for his war crimes. (If his crimes were severe he would've been given the death sentence)

2. He learned about Holocaust deniers and decided to fight that

3. Because he spoke against the Nazis, he revealed his status as an ex SS officer and he is being prosecuted again for the same crimes.

4. He was sentenced to 4 years in prison because his crimes as an SS officer now that he's 96.



At this point, he was judged by the same crimes twice and the sentence is not even that severe. He's being helping the fight against Holocaust deniers... I really don't think this 4 years of prison will help something tbh.

No, he wasn't judged for the same crimes twice. He never revealed to the Brits that he had been at Auschwitz (for understandable reasons), and his 'forced labour' was apparently fairly cushy ...

He was later sent to Britain as a forced labourer in 1946 where he had a "very comfortable life". He ate good food and earned money, and travelled through the Midlands and Scotland giving concerts for four months, singing German hymns and traditional English folk songs to appreciative British audiences.

Wait, did he actually kill anyone? Or is this a guilt by association type thing?

So far as we know he didn't actually kill anyone - or order or participate in any killing. But it is rather more than 'guilt by association', as he was a functional part of the Auschwitz machinery.

 

[nded]

Does he seem remorseful about all? I think he was a bit salty people were trying to erase what he and his friends did.

Er, are you saying this dude only spoke up about this stuff because he felt the nazis weren't getting proper credit?

Dude's at the end of his life. I wouldn't be surprised if he agreed to it as further affirmation the the Holocaust actually did happen.

 

[Trojita]

the next stage after this philosophical contemplation of justice for an SS member going by the posts here will be "The holocaust really wasn't as bad as people say, its a lot of hyperbole"

what

 

[Netherscourge]

Did he bother to send a letter to the Führer expressing his concern over the genocide he was doing the accounting on?

I wonder if he ordered any of the gas canisters used in the "bath" buildings?

Did he appraise any of the clothing that was ripped off prisoners backs or the tooth fillings that were pulled out of their mouths and sold to support the Nazi war effort?

Get the fuck out of here with that "he didn't directly kill anyone" horse shit.

He should have been shot by firing squad along with the rest of the Nazi guards.

 

[Sirpopopop]

There are millions of German soldiers who weren't prosecuted and deserved not to be prosecuted. The old "just following orders" line applies perfectly well to them. They literally were just following orders.

That doesn't extend to the SS.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Says who? You?

Not everyone believes that strongly in retributive justice. Restorative justice is at the core of many civilized nations.

There is no restorative justice for literal participants of the Holocaust.

 

[The Kree]

He participated in the systematic subjugation and extermination of 12 million Europeans and still got to live a full life?

Bye, Felicia.

 

[Westbahnhof]

And that is fine. No reason to put people behind literal bars in a dark dungeon. Dude is 96, so of course he will be treated as such during his sentence and receive the attention that is needed due to his age.

To me, it just seems like an old folks home that costs a lot more.
Feels like a misuse of money, even though I understand why it is important to people.

 

[Ryuukan]

What's the point?He's 96 years old.Let him die in peace.

Really?

what

right above you is someone asking for an SS member to die in peace

this is how denial starts

 

[Fury451]

I think his stint as a POW doing physical labor would count as time served, no?

Combined with taking an active role against Holocaust deniers, I would think so, but hard labor as a POW is not equivalent to criminal punishment.

Not sure what purpose this serves beyond the symbolic, considering he doesn't sound like someone who actively ordered deaths or abused prisoners. Then again he was a member of the SS, so you can't really make the same claims as a general soldier. Then again it seems he reformed, and it was his proactive statements about what he saw that are now damning him, which seems a bit off.

 

[Drencrom]

What's the point?He's 96 years old.Let him die in peace.

I would agree with you if this was regular criminal or a murderer that killed a person in the 40s, but this man partook in genocide.... not sentencing him because of age is a horrible message. The man will be able to "die in peace" in a german prison too.

 

[Trojita]

right above you is someone asking for an SS member to die in peace

I don't agree with that members statement. I don't think anyone would come out with the statement you proposed someone might say soon.

I don't care about his age, so much as his general role and how public he has been about fighting holocaust denial. I'm with the one holocaust survivor that would rather see he lives his last few years continuing his anti-holocaust denial and ant-nazi activity.

 

[Tinfoilhatsron]

No, he wasn't judged for the same crimes twice. He never revealed to the Brits that he had been at Auschwitz (for understandable reasons), and his 'forced labour' was apparently fairly cushy ...





So far as we know he didn't actually kill anyone - or order or participate in any killing. But it is rather more than 'guilt by association', as he was a functional part of the Auschwitz machinery.

Seems like an appropriate punishment to me then. He lived a longer, more fulfilling life as a free man who lied to escape his punishment. Should have caught him earlier.

 

[Violet_0]

this discussion (in the media, not GAF) has been going on for years now. Lock him up, or don't. I don't think it's really about him anymore

the next stage after this philosophical contemplation of justice for an SS member going by the posts here will be "The holocaust really wasn't as bad as people say, its a lot of hyperbole"

hm, are we already at the point where we accuse other posters of secretly harboring sympathy for the actual nazis?