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[Korey]

The argument is more about what society gets out of him being free vs. him being in prison. No one's saying he's a good person.

If he's out he does what he can at his age to shut down holocaust deniers.
Throw him in jail and everyone feels good for 5 seconds because "justice prevailed".

I think we benefit more from scenario A, but again, it's not an argument I'm super passionate about.

Justice isn't about what society is best served by. It's about.....punishing the transgressor. We're super lucky he's still alive so we can lock him up.


*man kills 300,000 people*

"well society would be better served if he gave motivational speeches to first graders!!!"

Some people in this thread... Lol

 

[Staccat0]

This is one of those things where I feel kinda uncomfortable with the idea that I should even have an opinion.

 

[AllIsOneIsNone]

We're all going to die "soon", but as long as we're alive we need to own up to our actions. It's this man's time to do that.

 

[Enter The 36 Chambers]

Uhhh I don't see a point in jailing a 96 year old man honestly

 

[Ferr986]

Justice is justice, even if he is old. .

This, is not rocket science guys. It's not about where is more useful or what did he do with his life.

 

[GoodCoffeeJoey]

And yet imagine if all the people under Hitler who didn't agree with him didn't go along...

The Rosentrasse protest gives some idea what would have been possible if more Germans had resisted.

 

[Waddle Dee]

People can make arguments about this being unnecessary or whatever and they aren't completely wrong for doing so, but that doesn't change the fact that this guy helped kill a shit-ton of innocent people. I think this is fine, honestly. Give some justice to the departed.

 

[carlsojo]

Being 96, I don't think he particularly cares what happens to himself at this point. I doubt he regrets speaking out against Holocaust deniers.

 

[Air Zombie Meat]

This is one of those things where I feel kinda uncomfortable with the idea that I should even have an opinion.

Yeah same. I get both arguments. Would be interested in hearing what holocaust survivors feel about it.

 

[Ekai]

This sends a good message to any neo-nazis the world over, young and old.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Justice isn't about what society is best served by. It's about.....punishing the transgressor.

Says who? You?

Not everyone believes that strongly in retributive justice. Restorative justice is at the core of many civilized nations.

 

[Korey]

Yeah same. I get both arguments. Would be interested in hearing what holocaust survivors feel about it.

Would you be interested in hearing how the 300,000 people he killed feel about it?

 

[Trojita]

Justice isn't about what society is best served by. It's about.....punishing the transgressor. We're super lucky he's still alive so we can lock him up.


*man kills 300,000 people*

"well society would be better served if he gave motivational speeches to first graders!!!"

Some people in this thread... Lol

Saying this guy killed 300,000 is doing a disservice to how actually fucking horrible the SS members were that were doing this and got enjoyment out of it.

 

[Metalgus]

holy shit he was SS
stop

This is not addressed to me, but I have a comment:

I consider myself pretty knowledgeable in general history and geo-politics of the 20ieth Century, but your comment made me research a bit further and I never notice the SS were apart form the Nazi military. I mean, I knew the SS started as paramilitary, but I figured they had merged with the military after. Conclusion is I was wrong, the SS really always were a disgusting ideological group. So yeah, in this case Oskar Groening doesn't seem like he was as forced as some make it out to be.

 

[TheMan]

Conflicted. He contributed to a gross atrocity, but he's an old fucking man now. Locking him up now would be about retribution, not rehabilitation, so it accomplishes nothing. There's not much "justice" to be gained by locking up him up at this point.

 

[AmayaPapaya]

It's pointless to send an old man like this to prison. They're just gonna cut whatever life he has left. Prison isn't about punishment, it's about rehabilitating, IMO.

The sad part is, if he had decided to remain quiet, and not speak against the Nazi's after the fact, he wouldn't have drawn attention to himself, and been thrown in court.

 

[Oberon]

At least in Germany they actually jail War criminals unlike other countries.
I'll guess this is more a "symbolic" gesture than anything. Won't be much different from a retiring home for him

 

[Mammoth Jones]

He won't get any sympathy from me.

This. Bye.

 

[Ryuukan]

Says who? You?

Not everyone believes that strongly in retributive justice. Restorative justice is at the core of many civilized nations.

sending a message that someone can get away with participating in one of the most heinous acts in human history by hiding out long enough is your idea of restorative justice?

shame on you and everyone else condoning the idea of absolving yourself from guilt by running away

 

[BrianRoyale]

I'm glad that it seems like he changed, and willingly brought facts out to help squash holocaust deniers, but going to jail for war crimes is also OK, even at his age, and even for the good he did recently. I'd think he'd be Ok with that fact if he felt remorseful. Justice is serving a punishment for a crime. I don't think it will stop him from being able to continue talking about what he and the Nazis did.

 

[SilentRob]

Another thing:

This guy isn't spending his days traveling the world, or giving lectures from home fighting Nazism or Holocaust Denial. As far as I can see, he was interviewed once or twice and said "Yes, those things happened." That's pretty much it. During the process he tried various excuses, one of them that he repeadetely tried to get out of Auschwitz and asked command to be transfered to the front. Not a single such request was ever documented.

If Trump tomorrow issues a military draft tomorrow to fight the north koreans and the general says "Slayven your in charge of the book keeping at our prison/death camps and if you dont like your job, you and your family will be put in the prison/death camp". It was a messed up time. As horrible as it was I have a hard time blaming the soldiers when they were just carrying out the orders from their homicidal maniac leaders.

Finally someone explaining the german people and justice system how it really was back then. Thank you! A few facts about this man:

He joined the NSDAP in 1939. He joined the SS out of his own free will in 1940. Himmler asked anyone interested in joining the SS to leave the evangelical church, so he did, again, out of his own free will. A great quote from this nice man:

After witnessing this, Gröning claims he went to his boss and told him that he could not work at Auschwitz anymore, stating that if the extermination of the Jews is necessary, "then at least it should be done within a certain framework."

He was not forced to be a Nazi or work at Auschwitz.

 

[AllIsOneIsNone]

Says who? You?

Not everyone believes that strongly in retributive justice. Restorative justice is at the core of many civilized nations.

What world do you live in? Some galactic civilization? Last time I checked people who kill go to jail...or worse.

 

[EviLore]

I don't like this because it might as well be a death sentence. German prisons are good and well equipped but he's 96 and won't live to be free again.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Saying this guy killed 300,000 is doing a disservice to how actually fucking horrible the SS members were that were doing this and got enjoyment out of it.

Sadly too many of those got away. But that is no reason to have this man escape his sentence.

 

[Netherscourge]

Lucky him - lived to see 96 after keeping books at a camp where 1.2 million people were murdered.

You CAN'T make amends for that. Ever.

 

[phisheep]

Would you be interested in hearing how the 300,000 people he killed feel about it?

I don't think there's any evidence that he actually killed anyone at all. Let's not go overboard here.

 

[Oberon]

sending a message that someone can get away with participating in one of the most heinous acts in human history by hiding out long enough is your idea of restorative justice?

shame on you and everyone else condoning the idea of absolving yourself from guilt by running away

I don't know, the fact that people like George bush and Dick cheney are not in jail pretty much shows that with enough power laws don't matter

 

[commedieu]

Shoulda been a rocket scientist.

 

[Air Zombie Meat]

Would you be interested in hearing how the 300,000 people he killed feel about it?

Stupid comment dude. I'd rather hear from people more directly harmed by the holocaust than you, that's for sure. Like the family members of the people that were killed for example.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

I don't think there's any evidence that he actually killed anyone at all. Let's not go overboard here.

Christ. People defending actual Nazis. Wow.

 

[jtb]

Says who? You?

Not everyone believes that strongly in retributive justice. Restorative justice is at the core of many civilized nations.

No, it's not. The only reason why the state is even vested with the power to strip a citizen of its rights is because they have violated a law and broken their social contract with the state. The restorative aspect of justice comes from the creation of those laws themselves, not by executing the laws as written and intended. Upholding and executing laws - and punishing violators - is definitionally retributive justice. But justice can serve many functions and take many forms.

 

[frontovik]

His decision to speak out against Holocaust deniers is commendable, but he still has a moral duty to accept responsibility for his actions in Auschwitz. His actus reus and mens rea should definitely be assessed and a fair judgement passed.

That being said, I have more faith in the German justice system rather than the punitive version in the US. If you weren't a part of his generation or do not understand the German mentality, then you have no right to condemn or praise him.

The man surely deals with the guilt of his actions every day if he has a sense of conscience.

 

[Trojita]

Shoulda been a rocket scientist.

Or any kind of scientist. Operation Paper Clip and then the agreement to let the Japanese military members go after they inflicted beyond horrific human torture is a stain.

 

[Username1198]

Christ. People defending actual Nazis. Wow.

Exactly. He was an SS squad leader. people really think he didn't kill anyone during the war?

 

[jtb]

Stupid comment dude. I'd rather hear from people more directly harmed by the holocaust than you, that's for sure. Like the family members of the people that were killed for example.

Why do you think this law was written in the first place?

 

[TDLink]

This guy was an SS Squad leader, fuck him. I mean, sure, great that he regrets his actions and is calling out holocaust deniers. But that isn't enough to make up for what he did. Nothing is. He can die in prison, and that's alright.

 

[phisheep]

Christ. People defending actual Nazis. Wow.

'scuse me Mammoth. You can see my other posts above for why I think this is the right sentence. But it is both fair and just to defend him against accusations of actually killing people, which he did not do.

 

[Bubba_Sparks]

Why?

The war is long over making this a complete sham in terms of providing any form of justice.

 

[Tinfoilhatsron]

Too bad he wasn't a scientist, then we would have given him his freedom and excused his crimes in return for his research on human experimentation.

 

[Fenderputty]

He's 96, served as a PoW laborer already and then outed himself again just to fight deniers

Meh

Yeah ... pretty much.

 

[Robdraggoo]

I don't think there's any evidence that he actually killed anyone at all. Let's not go overboard here.

So who are responsible then? Only the poeple who turned on the gas?

There's also several instances of people asking and then being transferred from Auschwitz to other places.

This guy was interviewed extensively in the BBC documentary Auschwitz, it's a really good doc, I'd recommend checking it out on Netflix. He showed no remorse, even after so many years. He thought what he was doing was right.

 

[Trojita]

Exactly. He was an SS squad leader. people really think he didn't kill anyone during the war?

You clearly don't understand jobs or positions in military organizations.

 

[『Inaba Resident』]

He's 96, served as a PoW laborer already and then outed himself again just to fight deniers

Meh

More or less where I'm at. I get both arguments.

 

[squidyj]

This is going to accomplish a lot of good /s

 

[ClosingADoor]

Why?

The war is long over making this a complete sham in terms of providing any form of justice.

The war is over, pack it up, war crimes are forgiven /s

 

[traveler]

Justice isn't about what society is best served by. It's about.....punishing the transgressor. We're super lucky he's still alive so we can lock him up.


*man kills 300,000 people*

"well society would be better served if he gave motivational speeches to first graders!!!"

Some people in this thread... Lol

a : the maintenance or administration of what is just especially by the impartial adjustment of conflicting claims or the assignment of merited rewards or punishments meting out justice social justice
b : judge a supreme court justice —used as a title Justice Marshall
c : the administration of law a fugitive from justice; especially : the establishment or determination of rights according to the rules of law or equity a system of justice
2
a : the quality of being just, impartial, or fair questioned the justice of the their decision
b (1) : the principle or ideal of just dealing or right action (2) : conformity to this principle or ideal : righteousness the justice of their cause
c : the quality of conforming to law
3
: conformity to truth, fact, or reason : correctness
admitted that there was much justice in these observations — T. L. Peacock

Justice is not inherently about punishment. The satisfying act is not necessarily the morally proper thing to do.

And, look, thinking this man should go to prison is a totally fair position and I don't have an issue with folks believing that, even if I disagree, but I don't appreciate this:

Some people in this thread... Lol

What's up with the nazi defense force?

What a ridiculous statement. Give the gun to the descendants or relatives of someone who died in the camp he worked at.

Fucking SS defence force gimme a break.



I can't believe some of the posts in here.

'he beat the system, he won, leave the poor nazi alone'

Keep defending nazis

This stuff is super reductive and borderline thread shitting. Just because a Nazi is involved doesn't erase all nuance from a story. And the primary debate- which is evident if you read the thread- isn't about whether or not Nazis were just, but what constitutes justice and the proper fulfillment of it.

 

[Username1198]

You clearly don't understand jobs or positions in military organizations.

There's people saying he didn't directly kill anyone or there's no evidence.

 

[Trojita]

The war is over, pack it up, war crimes are forgiven /s

For only a select few Nazi's, but that was right after the war.

 

[jtb]

You clearly don't understand jobs or positions in military organizations.

Is being an accomplice to genocide supposed to be an improvement? I don't find this a compelling argument.

I did no such thing. Shame on you for deliberately misrepresenting what I said, which is disagreeing with someone who claimed justice served only one purpose (to be punitive). I wasn't even talking about this particular case, FFS.


And? In many countries (here on Earth, I swear) prison is intended to be for rehabilitation more than for punishment.


I'm not sure what you are disagreeing with me for. I agree justice can serve many functions and take many forms. I was disagreeing with someone who claimed that justice served only one purpose, which was to punish.

You're right. I think I lost track of your quote chain somewhere.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

sending a message that someone can get away with participating in one of the most heinous acts in human history by hiding out long enough is your idea of restorative justice?

shame on you and everyone else condoning the idea of absolving yourself from guilt by running away

I did no such thing. Shame on you for deliberately misrepresenting what I said, which is disagreeing with someone who claimed justice served only one purpose (to be punitive). I wasn't even talking about this particular case, FFS.

What world do you live in? Some galactic civilization? Last time I checked people who kill go to jail...or worse.

And? In many countries (here on Earth, I swear) prison is intended to be for rehabilitation more than for punishment.

No, it's not. The only reason why the state is even vested with the power to strip a citizen of its rights is because they have violated a law and broken their social contract with the state. The restorative aspect of justice comes from the creation of those laws themselves, not by executing the laws as written and intended. Upholding and executing laws - and punishing violators - is definitionally retributive justice. But justice can serve many functions and take many forms.

I'm not sure what you are disagreeing with me for. I agree justice can serve many functions and take many forms. I was disagreeing with someone who claimed that justice served only one purpose, which was to punish.


Edit:

Justice is not inherently about punishment. The satisfying act is not necessarily the morally proper thing to do.

And, look, thinking this man should go to prison is a totally fair position and I don't have an issue with folks believing that, even if I disagree, but I don't appreciate this:



This stuff is super reductive and borderline thread shitting. Just because a Nazi is involved doesn't erase all nuance from a story. And the primary debate- which is evident if you read the thread- isn't about whether or not Nazis were just, but what constitutes justice and the proper fulfillment of it.

Thank you.