Support NeoGAF

[Always-honest]

Even the Dutch don't care.

I care. And i want to ask all Dutch people here to go vote.
I don't want a fucking Trump situation in my country.

 

[Peter Ian Staker]

Why does Dutch Trump look like Leonardo DiCaprio playing Max Zorin from A View To A Kill?

Holy shit he does look like Zorin.

 

[Condom]

I will! Though a minor (but real) concern is also a strategic vote. With most parties ruling out a PVV coalition, a weaker VVD would mean seeing a PvdA / GL / SP or D66 coalition. I'm not really looking to that since it will most likely hurt me personally and business-wise.

That is not true. All those parties are pro small business. Here you have the SP page about small businesses. Google about it too if you have time, the left is pro small business and anti big business and small business representatives agree.

By voting VVD you're actually hurting your business. Don't think the small personal tax breaks make up for being unfairly competed against by the big boys.

 

[Nokterian]

I care. And i want to ask all Dutch people here to go vote.
I don't want a fucking Trump situation in my country.

I am also encouraging people and younger people who just turned 18 to vote and i do say it is important, you have the right to vote and use it but use it in a sensible way think before you do.

Sure you don't have to vote but you don't have a right to complain if the VVD does things you don't like, that is the truth. Also angry voting is not the answer like voting on PVV because you are angry but that is stupid, think of yourself first on what do you really want and how about the future of not only the country but for you for your family,kids and beyond.

 

[RSP]

Remember Pirate Party is an international movement we are in 40+ country's we have 10 seats in Iceland, we are also in EU Parlement. We are everywhere, the fun thing is when you say pirate party people think different but the name keeps sticking to you and that is good.

Why i am a pirate? Because the way of thinking of politics these days is unfitting and i never was left or right either. That's why i joined the pirate party and that's why i am also on the electoral list for the pirate party.

I am number 30 so if you vote on me, your vote that goes to our front runner.

https://tk2017.piratenpartij.nl/kieslijst/martin-van-vuuren/

I have read (and will continue to read) your plans for an innovative networking economy and more freedom for ZZP'ers, but I do want to give you a bit of feedback (might use a couple of Dutch terms, so apologies to international readers):

- I think that regulation won't prevent or encourage MKB to innovate. It's inherent for entrepreneurs to establish new business when they invent a new product or service. Leveling the playing could help companies develop faster, but often business owners make a very conscious decision about organic growth or seeking financing in order to become larger. I don't think that's necessarily a bad situation.

- One of the big problems is that there is no difference between a company with 1 or 100 employees. The program mentions that hiring a ZZP'er could lead to "verkapt dienstverband" or avoidance of CAO and regulation. Small businesses need to be in a position to quickly hire (and fire) people in order to grow. I've had many situations where I could have offered someone a job for 3 to 6 months but didn't because of the chances with being hit possible fines months or even years after we hired the ZZP'er. Even though this is primarily because of the DBA, I think the plan your party is proposing might improve situations for ZZP'ers working for large companies, but not for companies who hire 5 to 10 people.

What I think that needs to change is a new set of policies for companies with fewer than 50 employees. Less strict regulation, and lower tax brackets (Werkgeverslasten, VPB) will allow small companies to invest more money in their own product also lessens the need for all kinds of "innovation" subsidies.

 

[Nokterian]

I have read (and will continue to read) your plans for an innovative networking economy and more freedom for ZZP'ers, but I do want to give you a bit of feedback (might use a couple of Dutch terms, so apologies to international readers):

- I think that regulation won't prevent or encourage MKB to innovate. It's inherent for entrepreneurs to establish new business when they invent a new product or service. Leveling the playing could help companies develop faster, but often business owners make a very conscious decision about organic growth or seeking financing in order to become larger. I don't think that's necessarily a bad situation.

- One of the big problems is that there is no difference between a company with 1 or 100 employees. The program mentions that hiring a ZZP'er could lead to "verkapt dienstverband" or avoidance of CAO and regulation. Small businesses need to be in a position to quickly hire (and fire) people in order to grow. I've had many situations where I could have offered someone a job for 3 to 6 months but didn't because of the chances with being hit possible fines months or even years after we hired the ZZP'er. Even though this is primarily because of the DBA, I think the plan your party is proposing might improve situations for ZZP'ers working for large companies, but not for companies who hire 5 to 10 people.

What I think that needs to change is a new set of policies for companies with fewer than 50 employees. Less strict regulation, and lower tax brackets (Werkgeverslasten, VPB) will allow small companies to invest more money in their own product also lessens the need for all kinds of "innovation" subsidies.

So far i know for ZZP the new law is not working and my brother is also a ZZP'er and yes this needs to change it is unbelievable how this new law affects so much and yet they where ignorant and obtuse to believe it, i am no expert on that level at all, i do only tell now what i know.

But as it says in our program we want to make it better for ZZP'ers.

 

[Pusherman]

He will need to change the ground laws to achieve a couple of those things. Changing that would require the usual majority vote in both chambers, then reelections, and then a 2/3 majority in both chambers.

Unless our nation really became insane, there is no way that happens.

Oh I know but it's still crazy he's campaigning on a platform as brazenly Islamophobic and authoritarian as his.

God this is gonna suck.

Also, in fairness to the SGP, they have had female candidates on the local level in recent years, and they actually took their pro-death penalty and anti-gay marriage stances out of their program for the upcoming elections.

Well, they're spearheading their campaign with a pretty anti-abortion stance. Mandated counseling before abortions, lowering of the 24-week limit, no longer publicly financing it. They also want to enshrine into the constitution the values of a classical husband and wife family and want to see the exclusive status of straight marriage get expressed in law.

Funny side note, I wanted to look up the SGP party platform a week ago but couldn't get into the website. I tried multiple times until I actually read the page I got redirected to and it said I should be resting because it was Sunday lol. God even wants the internet to rest when he does.

 

[Idde]

I don't get the 'stuck with' sentiment. The Netherlands is one of the most prosperous, safe and happy countries in the world. If the political establishment had done a terrible job, that certainly wouldn't be the case. I have serious issues with the way the media portrays how things are going, and in particular, where things will go in the future. People are incredibly pessimistic about the future, and are frightened into voting for parties that promise to restore a utopian past that never was or an unrealistically prosperous future.

This. I'm voting GroenLinks, but I'd have no qualms going with PvdA, CDA, D66, PvdD (or perhaps even VVD). There are a lot of competent partys who are doing a pretty damn good job governing this country. But people don't see that, because they're rarely satisfied. Of course, rightfully so in some cases. But generally we have a pretty awesome political system.

I think there's a a big opportunity there. To show people how good we're doing, to combat the fearmongering. A couple of days ago there was an article on the front page of het NRC, how the Dutch economy was doing great again. There need to be more articles like this. Unfortunately, that's not how media works

 

[Deleted member 1235]

I don't get the 'stuck with' sentiment. The Netherlands is one of the most prosperous, safe and happy countries in the world. If the political establishment had done a terrible job, that certainly wouldn't be the case. I have serious issues with the way the media portrays how things are going, and in particular, where things will go in the future. People are incredibly pessimistic about the future, and are frightened into voting for parties that promise to restore a utopian past that never was or an unrealistically prosperous future.

no lies detected here. As a resident of the Netherlands for near 11 years and no national voting rights (currently waiting on my inburgerings diploma), I came here to work, found the systems work well and if you make an effort and understand things it's not hard to get along in this society. The place didn't turn into a shitfest during the financial crisis (although I was lucky with my company) and generally the population seems happy and things aren't shit.

I would say that the leadership while I've been here as an observer has done pretty well.
I could grumble about high taxes, but then, poor people aren't stabbing me for my money and the roads are good, so I'm a little shy of complaining too much...

 

[Nokterian]

Also our pirate party made a campaign spot..it is dutch off course, also no shouting, no fear mongering, no lose ends.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbjUe-FYg7s

If you watch it and makes you think "this could be postbus 51" that was the thing we wanted to do.

 

[Pusherman]

This. I'm voting GroenLinks, but I'd have no qualms going with PvdA, CDA, D66, PvdD (or perhaps even VVD). There are a lot of competent partys who are doing a pretty damn good job governing this country. But people don't see that, because they're rarely satisfied. Of course, rightfully so in some cases. But generally we have a pretty awesome political system.

I think there's a a big opportunity there. To show people how good we're doing, to combat the fearmongering. A couple of days ago there was an article on the front page of het NRC, how the Dutch economy was doing great again. There need to be more articles like this. Unfortunately, that's not how media works

I generally agree. I think our coalition-based political system has served us very well and most of our parties are competent. But I do think the fear mongering and pessimism are also political problems. Being a part of the group that most often gets targeted by that fear mongering I've got to say that, as satisfied as I am in general, it's still pretty exhausting and demoralizing. I think our political establishment can do a much better job at being inclusive, having some vision and bringing back some idealism into their politics.

 

[Condom]

This. I'm voting GroenLinks, but I'd have no qualms going with PvdA, CDA, D66, PvdD (or perhaps even VVD). There are a lot of competent partys who are doing a pretty damn good job governing this country. But people don't see that, because they're rarely satisfied. Of course, rightfully so in some cases. But generally we have a pretty awesome political system.

I think there's a a big opportunity there. To show people how good we're doing, to combat the fearmongering. A couple of days ago there was an article on the front page of het NRC, how the Dutch economy was doing great again. There need to be more articles like this. Unfortunately, that's not how media works

I get your point but things let's not make things look better than they are just for the 'feel good' story. The economy for example is growing despite government policy, not because of government policy. Research already showed that.

The VVD crashed the Belastingdienst, total disaster (Trump voice). Very fiscal conservative of them (or pampering big corps who can evade taxes more easily now?). Small businesses have to pay far too much for employees in the form of social security/health care royalties while Starbucks gets a nice deal.

Healthcare is still a huge issue and none of the parties you mentioned has a real solution in place (except the PvdD, which does support real sustainable reform in the form of Nationaal Zorgfonds).

The good thing we have like proper bureaucratic institutions (how we provide water to homes for example) have nothing to do with the current parties, their leadership or their policies. It was already there from previous decades.

 

[Harmen]

I don't get the 'stuck with' sentiment. The Netherlands is one of the most prosperous, safe and happy countries in the world. If the political establishment had done a terrible job, that certainly wouldn't be the case. I have serious issues with the way the media portrays how things are going, and in particular, where things will go in the future. People are incredibly pessimistic about the future, and are frightened into voting for parties that promise to restore a utopian past that never was or an unrealistically prosperous future.

I fully agree.

 

[Arjen]

I don't get the 'stuck with' sentiment. The Netherlands is one of the most prosperous, safe and happy countries in the world. If the political establishment had done a terrible job, that certainly wouldn't be the case. I have serious issues with the way the media portrays how things are going, and in particular, where things will go in the future. People are incredibly pessimistic about the future, and are frightened into voting for parties that promise to restore a utopian past that never was or an unrealistically prosperous future.

Great post.
Curious what this election will bring. I will probably be voting Groen Links.

 

[7threst]

Probably going to vote Partij voor de Dieren. I really like their stances on issues like environment and of course anmial well being. Also, their stances on society issues like gay rights and their stance against cuts on heatlhcare align with how I feel about it.

 

[RSP]

That is not true. All those parties are pro small business. Here you have the SP page about small businesses. Google about it too if you have time, the left is pro small business and anti big business and small business representatives agree.

By voting VVD you're actually hurting your business. Don't think the small personal tax breaks make up for being unfairly competed against by the big boys.

While there are some good points in SP's program, most of the changes that they propose don't influence my own business. It would help improve situations for ZZP or eenmansbedrijven. The changes they propose are realistic and could easily be applied. It isn't groundbreaking however.

I guess the big problem I have with SP is their strive for nationalization. I don't think government should be in the business of competing with corporations at all, even when some of them seem to be failing, I'd rather see them replaced with another corporation who does a better job.

 

[Nokterian]

I get your point but things let's not make things look better than they are just for the 'feel good' story. The economy for example is growing despite government policy, not because of government policy. Research already showed that.

The VVD crashed the Belastingdienst, total disaster (Trump voice). Very fiscal conservative of them (or pampering big corps who can evade taxes more easily now?). Small businesses have to pay far too much for employees in the form of social security/health care royalties while Starbucks gets a nice deal.

Healthcare is still a huge issue and none of the parties you mentioned has a real solution in place (except the PvdD, which does support real sustainable reform in the form of Nationaal Zorgfonds).

The good thing we have like proper bureaucratic institutions (how we provide water to homes for example) have nothing to do with the current parties, their leadership or their policies. It was already there from previous decades.

Also don't forget lots of party's voted to remove 'medisch beroepsgeheim' because fraud..and that fraud is so small it is nothing. It just removing privacy also the trust between you and the doctor and giving more power to the insurance companies to look in your private medical document and based on that they can say pay more or you are 'risk factor'. In other words the insurance company will sit next to you at the doctor when you have pain or something and they will judge on it and not the doctor.

And do not forget 2 laws are in the senate to talk about..the hacking of police and mass surveillance by the AIVD and MIVD on a scale unparalleled. Meaning invading our privacy,destroying our democracy,destroying our freedom because 'terrorists'

Our healthcare is indeed not any better these days because 'eigen risico' and that is the cumber stone of our healthcare, you get punished when you are sick. I have read stories of people who have cancer did not get a treatment because they could not pay for eigen risico, it is pathetic.

 

[norinrad]

Well actually...I was talking to a really nice coworker of mine, and Trump came up, and Wilders afterwards. I consider him a friend, so he felt he could talk about how he voted Wilders before. He's hesitant to do that, because people will think he's racist and treat him like shit. He's Phillipine, and we regularly go out with Moroccan and black coworkers. So I told him I was surprised, and asked him why he did it. His response: something has to happen in Dutch politics, and Wilders promises to do something about the infrastructure. And lower the age at which people can retire. I asked him what he thought of when Wilders was sort of part of the coalition with CDA and PVV. Whether he did anything constructive. He got to thinking, that he didn't add anything. I asked him what he thought of what Wilders said about morrocans. My friend didn't really think of that, but mostly saw the good signs in the PVV. But yeah, he probably wasn't go vote Wilders anymore.

I know your remark was a joke. But what you're joking about hopefully gave Wilders one less vote.

I wasn't joking, I know quite a few people like that. They seem to look at things differently once you really engage them in a constructive manner.

 

[RSP]

Our healthcare is indeed not any better these days because 'eigen risico' and that is the cumber stone of our healthcare, you get punished when you are sick. I have read stories of people who have cancer did not get a treatment because they could not pay for eigen risico, it is pathetic.

Are you sure that's correct? It's not like you need to pay your deductables in advance before getting your treatment. Even in the worst case scenario, the deductable is like 800 euros or something. While this is a considerable amount for some, it does not compare to the impact of needing chemotherapy.

I feel like the deductable is reasonable, and affordable. Perhaps it should be income dependent, I would not mind that.

I wasn't joking, I know quite a few people like that. They seem to look at things differently once you really engage them in a constructive manner.

These are also the people most likely to stay home during an election. Here's hoping that it will happen again this term.

 

[Idde]

I generally agree. I think our coalition-based political system has served us very well and most of our parties are competent. But I do think the fear mongering and pessimism are also political problems. Being a part of the group that most often gets targeted by that fear mongering I've got to say that, as satisfied as I am in general, it's still pretty exhausting and demoralizing. I think our political establishment can do a much better job at being inclusive, having some vision and bringing back some idealism into their politics.

I agree completely. Not only do I think nobody should have to face hate and prejudice because well...empathy and morals and stuff... I also think inclusion instead of seperation (for any group in the Netherlands) is the best way forward. So that's why this resonates with me: https://groenlinks.nl/standpunten/eén-samenleving (Sorry Nokterian )

PvdA has a similar page on their site, but it's much less optimistic and positive. Sort of Obama vs. Hillary.

I get your point but things let's not make things look better than they are just for the 'feel good' story. The economy for example is growing despite government policy, not because of government policy. Research already showed that.

The VVD crashed the Belastingdienst, total disaster (Trump voice). Very fiscal conservative of them (or pampering big corps who can evade taxes more easily now?). Small businesses have to pay far too much for employees in the form of social security/health care royalties while Starbucks gets a nice deal.

Healthcare is still a huge issue and none of the parties you mentioned has a real solution in place (except the PvdD, which does support real sustainable reform in the form of Nationaal Zorgfonds).

The good thing we have like proper bureaucratic institutions (like how we provide water to homes) have nothing to do with the current parties, their leadership or their policies. It was already there from previous decades.

Hmpf, the link is behind a paywall. And you're right, I wasn't sure whether to include the VVD in the list of party's I'd vote for. Primarily because I think the Netherlands could be a lot more accomoddating to everyday people, and less to big businesses. And the decision to drastically cut back on study finances was a horrible one to maken.

But I disagree about the feel good story. It's much easier to make people pessimistic than it is to make them optimistic. People need a feel good story. Of course not JUST a feel good story, they also need good policy. But they need to know that the abundance of good policy is actually working out for them. Hatred feeds on insecurity and discontent (wether perceived or real).

 

[Soph]

I'm voting Pirate Party again, time we get a few seats!

 

[Nokterian]

Are you sure that's correct? It's not like you need to pay your deductables in advance before getting your treatment. Even in the worst case scenario, the deductable is like 800 euros or something. While this is a considerable amount for some, it does not compare to the impact of needing chemotherapy.

I feel like the deductable is reasonable, and affordable. Perhaps it should be income dependent, I would not mind that.



These are also the people most likely to stay home during an election. Here's hoping that it will happen again this term.

We need to pay for insurance and 'eigen risicio' that is 385 euro's..that is a lot money you know not everyone can afford it. That's why it is called you get punished when you are sick. Healthcare is about health these days you are just a number not a patient.

Eigen Risico or Own Risk it doesn't matter what you have you still need to pay up.

There have been polls and people are to afraid to go to the doctor since own risk came in, because even the minor thing people don't know if they need to pay for it. Fuck even i needed to pay 185 euro's just to do a fucking hearing test for tinnitus...that is own risk? Because my brain is making a noise that i cannot turn off?

 

[Cabaratier]

Thanks for making the thread, I was hoping to get a Dutch election OT.

I have a few responses to issues mentioned above and in the OP. I fully agree that the media, even the 'state' media NOS (our BBC basically) have been oddly pessimistic and threatening in the last few weeks leading up to the election, and especially now with regards to the EU summit in Malta. I assume it might simply be a way to keep ratings up, or the fact that I consume a lot of news media so its easy for me to pinpoint where the tv news gets things wrong, but why cast everything in a more negative light?

Personally I highly appreciate the optimistic tone and well researched party programme of Groen-Links, which has a lot over overlap with D66 and PVDA, but they will not be able to rule without the VVD and perhaps CDA. 5 parties in the government will most likely not last long. I find it odd that the PVDA seems to be blamed most for the mishaps of this (fairly succesful) government term, even though most (all?) of the failures were by VVD ministers/secretaries.

I also wouldn't consider the labour law adjustments a 'failure', but more of a 'two steps forward, one step back' sort of thing. The 'failures' of the seperate WDBA (trying to improve the system of independent contractors) are also massively overblown in my opinion. The law actually wouldn't change anything in the legal status of these workers or their employers (because the legal difference between an employee and contractor has been established for years), but a lot of companies and contractors were basically confronted with the fact that they might not have been fully following the law in their dealings. This obviously caused a bit of chaos, but there would have been a 1 year trial period to get everyone to adjust their contracts. The law has been tabled now because of the uproar, causing even more uncertainty (the guy in charge is from the VVD, and is the same guy who has been unable to fix some glaring issues with the IRS. A lot of the problems have been there for years, he just gets blamed for not fixing them before they came out, but that's politics).

 

[Nokterian]

I'm voting Pirate Party again, time we get a few seats!

Yarrr! Yes we need 1 or more seats,that would be great!

 

[norinrad]

I'm voting Pirate Party again, time we get a few seats!

I'm often stuck between them and the SP so I tend to vote locally for the PP and nationally for the SP. I might just do it the other way around this time. I like both programs though I often think the SP is in a position to do more to help those in need, students, the small guy/lady, single parents, those without a voice in society etc. Yes even the misguided need our help too.

 

[RSP]

We need to pay for insurance and 'eigen risicio' that is 385 euro's..that is a lot money you know not everyone can afford it. That's why it is called you get punished when you are sick. Healthcare is about health these days you are just a number not a patient.

Eigen Risico or Own Risk it doesn't matter what you have you still need to pay up.

There have been polls and people are to afraid to go to the doctor since own risk came in, because even the minor thing people don't know if they need to pay for it. Fuck even i needed to pay 185 euro's just to do a fucking hearing test for tinnitus...that is own risk? Because my brain is making a noise that i cannot turn off?

I know, but is it THAT unreasonable? You link the deductable to a single event, but once you reach your deductable limit, you don't have to pay any more. This is the case for all healthcare, no matter how big or small.

On top of that, the deductable does not apply when you make a normal visit to your own doctor, or in a couple of other (very common) situations.

I think the argument you raise is a bit exaggerated. The deeper problem is that in my opnion, a lot of people have trouble controlling their finances. Reserving some money for an event like covering a deductable should be something anybody can do, even when you are on welfare. I'm not trying to be mean here, but the argument that "poor people can't go the Doctor anymore" is just a load of crap.

 

[Nokterian]

I know, but is it THAT unreasonable? You link the deductable to a single event, but once you reach your deductable limit, you don't have to pay any more. This is the case for all healthcare, no matter how big or small.

On top of that, the deductable does not apply when you make a normal visit to your own doctor, or in a couple of other (very common) situations.

I think the argument you raise is a bit exaggerated. The deeper problem is that in my opnion, a lot of people have trouble controlling their finances. Reserving some money for an event like covering a deductable should be something anybody can do, even when you are on welfare. I'm not trying to be mean here, but the argument that "poor people can't go the Doctor anymore" is just a load of crap.

It is not about poor people can go to the doctor it is people getting rejected for healthcare they need most, this happend to a lot of women lately who had breast cancer who cannot afford to pay for own risk. That is the punishment that own risk bring because you are sick and you cannot pay for it you are basically fucked.

Like i said you are not a patient you are a number these days.

 

[Xater]

Curious to see how our Dutch neighbors will vote. I hope you will keep Wilders out.

 

[Aiii]

It is not about poor people can go to the doctor it is people getting rejected for healthcare they need most, this happend to a lot of women lately who had breast cancer who cannot afford to pay for own risk. That is the punishment that own risk bring because you are sick and you cannot pay for it you are basically fucked.

It's 385 Euro per year, you can pay it. And if you can't pay it all at once, it takes literally one no-questions-asked call to your insurance company to set-up a payment scheme to pay for that money.

I refuse to believe that is unpayable for any Dutch person.

 

[Cabaratier]

I know, but is it THAT unreasonable? You link the deductable to a single event, but once you reach your deductable limit, you don't have to pay any more. This is the case for all healthcare, no matter how big or small.

On top of that, the deductable does not apply when you make a normal visit to your own doctor, or in a couple of other (very common) situations.

I think the argument you raise is a bit exaggerated. The deeper problem is that in my opnion, a lot of people have trouble controlling their finances. Reserving some money for an event like covering a deductable should be something anybody can do, even when you are on welfare. I'm not trying to be mean here, but the argument that "poor people can't go the Doctor anymore" is just a load of crap.

It's a difficult issue (must be amazing for people from the US that having to pay a few hundred out-of-pocket for an expensive procedure and having the rest covered is even an issue). Any argument that relies on people having a sense of personal responsibility can be right in nature and will still almost never turn to reality. People below a certain income will get a grant from the state to pay their health insurance, and yet there are tens of thousands (I think) of people who get fined for not having health insurance (because they spent the grant on something else).

I can definitely see how having to pay 300 euro's out of pocket for an unexpected procedure can lead to big trouble and long term debt for a fairly large group of people, who will therefore vote for parties that promise them fully free healthcare (even though that is currently unaffordable for the state).

 

[RSP]

It is not about poor people can go to the doctor it is people getting rejected for healthcare they need most, this happend to a lot of women lately who had breast cancer who cannot afford to pay for own risk. That is the punishment that own risk bring because you are sick and you cannot pay for it you are basically fucked.

Like i said you are not a patient you are a number these days.

Could you please provide some source of information on that? I cannot fathom #1 people not being able to pay their deductables especially when you can pay at amounts as small as 40 euros a month and #2 people being denied healthcare because of that.

A lot of parties are making this way bigger than it really is in my opinion.

I can definitely see how having to pay 300 euro's out of pocket for an unexpected procedure can lead to big trouble and long term debt for a fairly large group of people, who will therefore vote for parties that promise them fully free healthcare (even though that is currently unaffordable for the state).

I'm sorry but a deductable of 380 euros cannot realistically turn into a long-term debt. Every single one of our healtcare companies have policies that allow spread payment. Even people who consciously refuse to take out an insurance policy are getting fined, but not denied the care they need.

 

[Clefargle]

I live in Limburg and will be watching the outcome with great interest. Hoping Wilders doesn't pull a trump

 

[norinrad]

It's 385 Euro per year, you can pay it. And if you can't pay it all at once, it takes literally one no-questions-asked call to your insurance company to set-up a payment scheme to pay for that money.

I refuse to believe that is unpayable for any Dutch person.

That system needs to go away and I think some parties are warming up to it. It was a silly idea to begin with in the first place. It's not much and most can pay and those who cannot just need to call their insurance company to set up some paying terms which all works fine.

 

[Nokterian]

It's 385 Euro per year, you can pay it. And if you can't pay it all at once, it takes literally one no-questions-asked call to your insurance company to set-up a payment scheme to pay for that money.

I refuse to believe that is unpayable for any Dutch person.

Oh but is,clearly you don't know that we as a rich country as the netherlands still have a huge population living in poverty or below that? Almost 400 euro's is lots of money and clearly you can afford it and others cannot.

That's why Own Risk needs to be gone,because these are american practices in a dutch society and that doesn't fit here.

That system needs to go away and I think some parties are warming up to it. It was a silly idea to begin with in the first place. It's not much and most can pay and those who cannot just need to call their insurance company to set up some paying terms which all works fine.

This right here, it needs to go away and replaced with a national healthcare fund.

 

[Aiii]

Oh but is,clearly you don't know that we as a rich country as the netherlands still have a huge population living in poverty or below that? Almost 400 euro's is lots of money and clearly you can afford it and others cannot.

It's best not to get into discussions assuming things about the other person that you have no clue about, mate.

 

[Antagon]

Thanks for making the thread, I was hoping to get a Dutch election OT.

I have a few responses to issues mentioned above and in the OP. I fully agree that the media, even the 'state' media NOS (our BBC basically) have been oddly pessimistic and threatening in the last few weeks leading up to the election, and especially now with regards to the EU summit in Malta. I assume it might simply be a way to keep ratings up, or the fact that I consume a lot of news media so its easy for me to pinpoint where the tv news gets things wrong, but why cast everything in a more negative light?

Personally I highly appreciate the optimistic tone and well researched party programme of Groen-Links, which has a lot over overlap with D66 and PVDA, but they will not be able to rule without the VVD and perhaps CDA. 5 parties in the government will most likely not last long. I find it odd that the PVDA seems to be blamed most for the mishaps of this (fairly succesful) government term, even though most (all?) of the failures were by VVD ministers/secretaries.

Based on the current polls, we won't have a coaltion with at the very least 4 parties. And that's if the PVV takes part. Any coalition without the PVV will take 5 parties at minimum. So don't let that change your vote.

I'm planning to vote GL for the first time myself. I've always voted D66 before, but I feel that they're in a bit of a need of a shake off. And after the results in the US climate really has become my first priority.

 

[Cabaratier]

Based on the current polls, we won't have a coaltion with at the very least 4 parties. And that's if the PVV takes part. Any coalition without the PVV will take 5 parties at minimum. So don't let that change your vote.

I'm planning to vote GL for the first time myself. I've always voted D66 before, but I feel that they're in a bit of a need of a shake off. And after the results in the US climate really has become my first priority.

Don't worry, GL has my vote.

With regards to the national health insurance fund, that's currently affordable.
https://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2016/09/2...-blauwdruk-maar-een-beweging-4414238-a1522887 (sorry in dutch).

I do believe there is money to be found by closing tax loopholes, a bit more spending (I think the EU has even recommended that), making/keeping all health insurance providers non-profits, but there are many mores issues that require funding. Our health insurance system is already very good and rather affordable as it is. Perhaps the system can be streamlined a bit, but I believe that something like getting rid of the deductible for people in poverty is symptom-treating, rather than tackling the issues that cause the disease.

 

[norinrad]

It's best not to get into discussions assuming things about the other person that you have no clue about, mate.

That's not what he said, relax. He clearly stated as a wealthy country we still have people under the poverty line. It used to be a few, but the numbers are growing. We need to do all we can as a society to reduce that. When these people live in poverty so do we. That's how I see it.

 

[Mimosa97]

I don't get the 'stuck with' sentiment. The Netherlands is one of the most prosperous, safe and happy countries in the world. If the political establishment had done a terrible job, that certainly wouldn't be the case. I have serious issues with the way the media portrays how things are going, and in particular, where things will go in the future. People are incredibly pessimistic about the future, and are frightened into voting for parties that promise to restore a utopian past that never was or an unrealistically prosperous future.

I was talking to a Danish guy who has a 6 figures job, travels all over the world with his gf and has an all around awesome life in Copenhagen and the guy kept ranting about how Denmark was a shitty country and politicians were screwing things up and how he needed to get the hell out there asap.

I was like : bruh ...

 

[roytheone]

My prediction:

Wilders will win handily, but fail to form a coalition. The VVD is forced to form a stitched together monster coalition of 5 parties, that turns out to be incredibly unstable and falls within a year. We go voting again. Same thing repeats until another party manages to grow enough that a coalition with fewer parties will be possible.

 

[Nokterian]

I don't get the 'stuck with' sentiment. The Netherlands is one of the most prosperous, safe and happy countries in the world. If the political establishment had done a terrible job, that certainly wouldn't be the case. I have serious issues with the way the media portrays how things are going, and in particular, where things will go in the future. People are incredibly pessimistic about the future, and are frightened into voting for parties that promise to restore a utopian past that never was or an unrealistically prosperous future.

Yes we are a very happy country, but there are still very big main issues that needs to be addressed on what i said in a bunch of posts. Yes the media is another big issue i have also, like now again NOS ignored the small party's..like us the pirate party but also FvD and Geenpeil to have a debate or the smurf debate as it been called, it is shameful seeing this and there is no excuse for it since we or other party's are growing and can't be ignored.

We can do that, we can work together but we need to change from old democracy to a new democracy. Lots of political party's are still one issue party, a reason i don't like that and a reason i joined the pirate party because we think everyone needs to be helped no matter what.

Another problem is the people who say i don't care about politics but they do care all of a sudden if there is in the news that the cabinet wants to put a tax on meat for example, it is incredible infuriating to see this.

So you care about that? But not what is happening to our healthcare,increased payments on everything or something else, it just boggles the mind that they do not think further.

 

[daxy]

My prediction:

Wilders will win handily, but fail to form a coalition. The VVD is forced to form a stitched together monster coalition of 5 parties, that turns out to be incredibly unstable and falls within a year. We go voting again. Same thing repeats until another party manages to grow enough that a coalition with fewer parties will be possible.

I think a lot of it boils down to people being unwilling to take the time to figure out who best reflects their values. Wilders effectively wants to 'make the Netherlands white again' and get out of the EU. That's easy enough to understand (at a surface level) and easy to remember. Our immigration policy indeed needs to be changed. A lot of people are indeed unhappy with the EU for extremely misguided and convoluted reasons that don't even have anything to do with the EU (see Geenpeil). The web of policy promises/preferences of other parties is (a bit) more nuanced and takes some more time to figure out, even though you can just fucking go to kieskompas and figure it out in under 10 minutes. I'm gonna see if I can somehow help volunteer locally to inform people of how and where to vote, where to find information on parties' preferences, remind them to bring ID when voting, i.e. all the classics

 

[Yonafunu]

Thanks for the OT.

This is really the first election I'm actively voting in, and I'm getting pretty nervous.

 

[Merino]

Dutch Pirate Party represent!

Oh and if you didn't know this gaffer is on the electoral list number 30, so yeah we want a seat if possible!

I voted Pirate Party in the last general elections because it most accurately aligns with my own ideals for the future.

That having said I can't in good consciousness participate again in the further splintering of the political left and quite honestly I hope the Pirate Party won't manage to grab a seat again.

I don't even consider this strategical voting I'd simply like my government to be governable which is never going to happen from the left if a dozen party's, with a handful of seats each, will have to somehow enter a coalition. I really hope Jesse Klaver can get the momentum up to establish a more stronger united voice on the left.

 

[Nokterian]

I voted Pirate Party in the last general elections because it most accurately aligns with my own ideals for the future.

That having said I can't in good consciousness participate again in the further splintering of the political left and quite honestly I hope the Pirate Party won't manage to grab a seat again.

I don't even consider this strategical voting I'd simply like my government to be governable which is never going to happen from the left if a dozen party's, with a handful of seats each, will have to somehow enter a coalition. I really hope Jesse Klaver can get the momentum up to establish a more stronger united voice on the left.

So you still want old politics with old ideas? instead of something new? Also not giving new party's a chance to change? Also we are not splinter party..look back at my post we are international party. We are not associated with forum voor democratie or geenpeil at all.

Also like i said we are not left or right, we are progressive. Also pirate party never got a seat..we got a seat in 2012 almost but we ended up short with votes. Now 4 years forward we are bigger than before also having a strong program is key.

 

[7threst]

My prediction:

Wilders will win handily, but fail to form a coalition. The VVD is forced to form a stitched together monster coalition of 5 parties, that turns out to be incredibly unstable and falls within a year. We go voting again. Same thing repeats until another party manages to grow enough that a coalition with fewer parties will be possible.

This is what I am thinking too, even though I do think they will do everything it takes to not have to organisae new elections every time. Also, I think Wilders will do everything it takes to not having to be a ruling party even if a majority votes for him. They best thrive as a opposition party (which isn't really a surprise). And considering how practically every party crossed out ruling with the PVV, this is likely how it will play out.

 

[Merino]

So you still want old politics with old ideas? instead of something new? Also not giving new party's a chance to change? Also we are not splinter party..look back at my post we are international party. We are not associated with forum voor democratie or geenpeil at all.

Also like i said we are not left or right, we are progressive.

Old politics with old ideas comes off to me very much as an empty soundbite.

As Kabouter has said I feel that the Netherlands has been decently well governed over the years and new ideas is also a matter of traditional parties changing internally due to new people arriving and the changing nature of the world itself.

What I mean with splintering on the left is that there are too many small parties already in the current climate. D66 and Groenlinks are both progressive parties also so it's not like I am lacking for choice. I'd rather have a handful of larger leftwing and progressive party's on the left then having so many tiny ones that will have to form an impossible 10 party coalition to get anywhere near the 76 seat majority. Don't get me wrong though, if I had my choice I would destroy the PvdA, D66, Groenlinks, Animal Party and Christian Union and posit one true progressive leftwing party in exchange for all of those. I just don't see the Pirate Party becoming such a viral sensation and thus I see them more as noise rather than signal in the current political landscape.

 

[lord quas]

I'm voting D66 again this year. I think Pechtold is doing a good job and they've always been good in getting laws on difficult subjects (gay marriage, euthanasia, organ donation) passed.

 

[Daeda]

This is what I am thinking too, even though I do think they will do everything it takes to not have to organisae new elections every time. Also, I think Wilders will do everything it takes to not having to be a ruling party even if a majority votes for him. They best thrive as a opposition party (which isn't really a surprise). And considering how practically every party crossed out ruling with the PVV, this is likely how it will play out.

My estimate as well. Wilders has a history of saying whatever he expects to give him the most votes. I mean, he started at the VVD and then shifted to a semi left wing economic policy to preach to his base. Making compromises, which is inevitable if he wants to become the prime minister, means he has to show his true colors. Thats bound to break him as an anti establishmen politician, especially since he has virtually no path to governing without the VVD whio will definitely force him back to the VVD economic policies. it will not just loose him his credibility, it will also destroy his message of anti establishment. Since he is currently one of the longest sitting MPs, he cant really afford that.

Thing is, whatever you think of him, Wilders is probably the smartest politician in the country (that is, if you define the goal of a politician is to get elected). Wilders knows all this, so he will try his best to make it seem like the other parties are blocking him out. In that sense, it will be interesting to see what game the VVD/CDA can play. If PVV is the biggest party, they may be able to play it out so that Wilders has to show his true colours without the ability to play the victim card. I don't want a PVV government, but a win might atually bring them down for good. Just hope the VVD can keep their own populist tendencies at bay.

 

[Magic Mushroom]

GroenLinks for me. It's optimistic, green and progressive.