That one shot doesn't feel good
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Overwatch |OT4| You Want A Good Genji, But You Need The Bad Hanzo
- Thread starter GraveRobberX
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That one shot doesn't feel good
Incendiary
Banned
Overwatch |OT5| Banned for cheating? Sorry, sorry! I'm sorry, sorry...
No joke, I witnessed a series of great Hanzos carrying my cousin to SR 70. The ones who stick it out and climb the comp rankings are really good. O.O
Lot of utility for the entire team with wallhack arrow... in addition to scatter being capable of getting key picks at any moment, of course.
Lot of utility for the entire team with wallhack arrow... in addition to scatter being capable of getting key picks at any moment, of course.
Spine_Ripper
Member
I've been playing solo competitive this whole time and today I reached rank 63. It's not easy, but it's definitely doable. The communication options in the wheel should be enough to communicate even without mics. I see Lucios go "group up", a straggler go "hello!" to alert the team of a flanker, etc. You do require even more active focus, but it's definitely doable. Don't give up!
mere_immortal
Member
Every KoTH match:
Team takes point easily
Holds to about 60%
Team gets cocky, pushes forward and dies
Proceeds to lose all semblance of sanity and run one by one into the enemy
Do this to 99%
Somehow become the greatest combined fighting force ever and take it back for the win
Team takes point easily
Holds to about 60%
Team gets cocky, pushes forward and dies
Proceeds to lose all semblance of sanity and run one by one into the enemy
Do this to 99%
Somehow become the greatest combined fighting force ever and take it back for the win
I mean, it's a pretty old trailer so it might be pointless to read too much into it, but the OW wikia says it's on Numbani so I'm wondering where they got that from. Maybe they just assumed it since Numbani has both a museum and the doomfist.
Dead Prince
Banned
game wants to load into the hero select screen AFTER i get leavers penalty. blizzard plz.
Probably next week, unless they just announce it and not release it.
I fully expect new content to hit the PTR around Gamescom or just after.
MarioHead3
Banned
Overwatch |OT5| Cheaters Never Die
TheLetdown
Member
So on point.
Occasionally, your team keeps the option of shitting the bed entirely and losing the rest without once capturing a point again, but this usually requires a leaver or one of those people that are so, so good that they'll switch to Mei and ice you in because the team was "doing their own thing" which will later be bragged about on a forum.
EteRnal PAL
Member
Hit rank 65 on Xbox last night. Next goal is to crack top 500 for that animated spray. Is there any way to check where I am at on the leaderboards to see how much work I have to do? Gamertag: EteRnal PAL
optimus8936
Banned
Nope, you just get it at random depending on your individual skill in future games and partially win/loss ratio. It usually comes when you rank up, but it's a random rank for everyone.
Vault Dweller 111
Member
Just catching up. That conversation about the tiers was pretty awful. Someday people in this thread will realize that no one in this thread is on a professional team, or that we are playing for fun.
Some day...
Some day...
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
It trickle downs though, like, even at my pleb levels defense heroes are still useless. Lucio + zen is still god like. Mccree is a bit different because of his high skill ceiling.
There are more variances obviously at lower levels. Some people still haven't figured out bastion for example. But other than that it's more about people's willingness to actually play to the meta instead of their favourite hero. Which I kinda don't mind.
EteRnal PAL
Member
Cool, thanks for the response. Hmmm... I'm assuming competitive games and not quick play is how you place in the top 500?
Edit - Wondering if I'm close enough to even try and put time in, here are my comp stats:
Vault Dweller 111
Member
Yea but calling someone out for using Junkrat and saying 'you aren't helping your team as much as you could be, even though I never play with you and have no idea', is stupid. Soulflarz got to rank 500 using Reaper who is ONE tier above Junkrat. Last week McCree was S- tier now he's B. Maybe those ranks aren't the end all be all. Pharah and Soldier are F!
Yea Lucio and Zen is great, got it. We pretty much ran one every time in our group last night. But just because PC tournament players have deemed a hero not as valuable doesn't mean you have to tell every single person who doesn't run a perfect team on Ps4 that they are a detriment.
Lik's gone from 55 to 67 in the past week because he mastered a character instead of playing the meta. I'd say he's doing alright.
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
You can't really look at the tiers like that. Tiers are a quick way to see hero usage but they don't generally tell you why they are picked.
Reaper might be C-tier but it's because he's switched off a lot for wide open areas, but in closed, smaller areas he's still the DPS king. Mccree fall off to B because he's no longer mcsniper, but he's still the best mid-range DPS hitscan with soldier's nerf, and if you can run mccree why run soldier?
I agree though, like I'll give in to frustration sometimes and ask a hanzo to switch off (which they don't but whatever), but eh, I'll leave people to play the characters they want as long as team comp seems roughly balanced. If it doesn't though I'll ask people to switch, but not forcefully.
Reaper might be C-tier but it's because he's switched off a lot for wide open areas, but in closed, smaller areas he's still the DPS king. Mccree fall off to B because he's no longer mcsniper, but he's still the best mid-range DPS hitscan with soldier's nerf, and if you can run mccree why run soldier?
I agree though, like I'll give in to frustration sometimes and ask a hanzo to switch off (which they don't but whatever), but eh, I'll leave people to play the characters they want as long as team comp seems roughly balanced. If it doesn't though I'll ask people to switch, but not forcefully.
optimus8936
Banned
Oh yeah, you should be fine. Seems like you pretty much got Dva down and you're pretty good with her. You could definitely get here with her, don't know about your other character obviously, but with Dva, you should be good.
Also, yes, QP doesn't affect top 500, just comp.
Is that a pro Hanzo?!?
Vault Dweller 111
Member
Our gaf trains are pretty much exclusively Luciatta, two tanks (any of the 5 are fine), and two damage dealers. Sometimes we go three damage and one tank, but it's rare. Lik is pretty much exclusively one of the damage dealers and handles his role very well. Just because Surefour and Taimou could counter him doesn't mean he's not helping the team.
That's all I'm saying. Good team comp is important. You need tanks, and you need supports. What you don't need is perfect team comp at least not until you are playing with the best of the best (which will be never on Ps4).
That's all I'm saying. Good team comp is important. You need tanks, and you need supports. What you don't need is perfect team comp at least not until you are playing with the best of the best (which will be never on Ps4).
HI ANTIWHIPPY 
oh, it came back up -_-
Post one, see post 2
Tiers don't mean anything when you analyze "oh C" or "oh look a D tier". The lazy answer, because this horse has been beaten to death and back, is that defense heroes are very situational and that there are better choices.
Antiwhippy has the right idea.
No one was saying 'wtf are you doing for playing junkrat' it was much moreso in response to arguments over whether or not junkrat is a good choice, which for many maps, he isn't. You can win with a bad choice. We know. I use reaper in open areas. I used him when he was considered downright trash compared to McCree. This wasn't really what we were talking about, we were just countering talks of defense heroes being viable against good teams.
If you use "but our skill level is lower" as the counter to that then I might as well say run symmetra and bastion because it works in lower ranks. Saying because we're on PS4 doesn't work either, because full top 500 teams will laugh you off the map as they use optimal strategies on you.
TL;DR this has been beaten to death for two weeks on and off and Anne had an amazing explanation as to why half the thread has been saying defense is bad usually and why it is this way. We can endlessly reply that it's working for your group in the 50s-60s, but that's not at all the point of why anyone has been saying the previous statement, and really devalues any discussion on what needs to be balanced.
oh, it came back up -_-
Post one, see post 2
Tiers don't mean anything when you analyze "oh C" or "oh look a D tier". The lazy answer, because this horse has been beaten to death and back, is that defense heroes are very situational and that there are better choices.
Antiwhippy has the right idea.
No one was saying 'wtf are you doing for playing junkrat' it was much moreso in response to arguments over whether or not junkrat is a good choice, which for many maps, he isn't. You can win with a bad choice. We know. I use reaper in open areas. I used him when he was considered downright trash compared to McCree. This wasn't really what we were talking about, we were just countering talks of defense heroes being viable against good teams.
If you use "but our skill level is lower" as the counter to that then I might as well say run symmetra and bastion because it works in lower ranks. Saying because we're on PS4 doesn't work either, because full top 500 teams will laugh you off the map as they use optimal strategies on you.
TL;DR this has been beaten to death for two weeks on and off and Anne had an amazing explanation as to why half the thread has been saying defense is bad usually and why it is this way. We can endlessly reply that it's working for your group in the 50s-60s, but that's not at all the point of why anyone has been saying the previous statement, and really devalues any discussion on what needs to be balanced.
Omega Kirby
Member
Mercy mains. Tell me when do you play her?
Can you use her in KOTH?
How do you deal with the constant freaking focus?
Can you use her in KOTH?
How do you deal with the constant freaking focus?
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
HI ANTIWHIPPY
oh, it came back up -_-
Yo.
Couldn't play much lately. 60-80 hour work weeks man. ;_;
How do you work so much? ;_;
I like this a lot.
Vault Dweller 111
Member
I mean this started when Lik told a totally different person that they'd love his Junkrat. You jumped in and said that Junkrat is actually trash in the 70's and not viable at all. I'm not really sure how sick of it you are, because you started it.
I'm not trying to make enemies here. But just let the dude play the game and be proud of his excellent Junkrat play. And don't tell him he'd help the team more by playing McCree, because he wouldn't.
I'm not trying to make enemies here. But just let the dude play the game and be proud of his excellent Junkrat play. And don't tell him he'd help the team more by playing McCree, because he wouldn't.
But the meta totally makes sense for every level. Zenyatta is extremely good on every team due to Discord, his strong ult, and his damage, but you're probably not going to run him as solo heals. That's where Lucio comes in, and Lucio is always amazing. That's two spots.
Then if you look at the tanks, Reinhardt is really the only one who can be run solo most effectively on anything but KotH. Zarya is a popular off-tank for her resilience and ability to shield teammates, plus her ult combines beautifully with many others. She can be run solo but she's a lot more effective if paired with another tank. When you aren't running Reinhardt, she can be very strong with a Roadhog or Dva. Winston is a bit more situational.
So that basically leaves two spots for your damage dealers. Having a mid-range hitscan DPS is a good idea for the reliability and McCree fills that role very nicely. You can stick a defense hero in the final spot but they are competing with Genji, Reaper, Tracer, and Soldier, or even a 3rd tank/support. Soldier despite his nerfs is still a reliable damage dealer with good sustain, and has solid utility for his team with extra healing, so even if you don't want a flanker it's difficult to argue that someone like, say, Hanzo would be better.
You obviously don't have to run a 2/2/2 comp every time, but it should be easy to see why it's so brutally effective in this particular meta, and why it leaves little room for the defense heroes. It certainly doesn't mean you should never run a hero other than the meta kings, and if you're more comfortable with a certain hero you should play him, but the 2/2/2 comp is just strong in every situation and never a bad idea.
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
Yeah, honestly, if that's how it is there's no point berating someone for hero usage. It's not like we're pro players here. Let people have fun with who they want to be and either they'll keep ascending, or hit a wall and level out or decline.
For the record, I don't mind anybody playing a hero they like and are comfy on in their own games at their own MMR. I just like talking about meta and balance and how to take advantage of it.
Also yeah, Zeliard is right on that particular argument of "we're not pros." If you're good enough, you're gonna run into the meta wall a bit and it's nice to know and acknowledge how it works. Even if you don't play into it, it's a thing is going to exist around you.
Also yeah, Zeliard is right on that particular argument of "we're not pros." If you're good enough, you're gonna run into the meta wall a bit and it's nice to know and acknowledge how it works. Even if you don't play into it, it's a thing is going to exist around you.
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
I would also like to note that I'm generally trash, but much like fighting games, even though I might not be the most mechanically gifted player in the world I still like to dive deep into the meta because that's fun.
Garrett Hawke
Member
Genji's ult charges at light speed lmao
I'm a fan of Junkrat too, but I have to say, regarding comp, it really depends on what the team needs. I feel that lately, the games where I do best as Junkrat are actually the games where we decide NOT to run a standard tank (ie: Reinhardt) and instead go for a flimsier but more damage dealing set up. If they come at us with tanks and counters our attacking power, the team is basically finished and we switch up immediately, but if we can survive individually, Junkrat's ability to confuse and scatter the enemy team and deal auxiliary damage to multiple enemies at once is super helpful as long as there is enough damage going around to commit to kills. If they get away and heal up, we're just feeding.
Vault Dweller 111
Member
Which is totally fine. I enjoy the meta talk too, and love watching Envyus play C9 and stuff. As long as there is perspective and we don't single people out for playing their favorite heroes (especially if they've had great success).
You can tell me that Reaper McCree Zarya Winston Lucio and Zen is the best team comp possible, I won't argue with you. Just don't tell me that I would help the team more if I switched off Roadhog for Zarya because it's just not true.
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
Speaking of concentrating on heroes and mastering them, I feel like I should do that for season 2. I switch around characters way too much. I like playing so many character though.
I was watching this video about the overall problem with the Defense Heroes of Overwatch.
As someone had mentioned in the comments, the issue with the Defense Heroes is their niche specificity, poor mobility, indirect or delayed damage, and the Offense Heroes going beyond of their intended design. If the likes of Junkrat had his grenades increased at a higher velocity, then a good Junkrat player could be clearing points with relative ease.
Of course, this is a problem that goes beyond "buffing/nerfing", as some heroes (such as Hanzo and Bastion) need to be reworked from the ground-up. (Though I find Bastion to be pretty balanced overall.)
As someone had mentioned in the comments, the issue with the Defense Heroes is their niche specificity, poor mobility, indirect or delayed damage, and the Offense Heroes going beyond of their intended design. If the likes of Junkrat had his grenades increased at a higher velocity, then a good Junkrat player could be clearing points with relative ease.
Of course, this is a problem that goes beyond "buffing/nerfing", as some heroes (such as Hanzo and Bastion) need to be reworked from the ground-up. (Though I find Bastion to be pretty balanced overall.)
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
Bastion is already really adorable man. That little wave when he says hello in turret form makes me want to hug him.
I like Junkrat a lot too. He's really good in defensive points like Hanamura A, Anubis A, first section of Dorado, and can also be effective in several of the KotH points due to their closed-in nature. He's also highly mobile, which on top of making him better also makes him really fun. He's the defense hero with the least amount of problems by far, IMO.
In fact, I would say that Junkrat might be the most balanced hero in the entire game outside of Reaper. Those are two heroes where I'm not sure I've ever seen anyone really demand a nerf or buff nearly to the degree they do others (outside of maybe Junkrat's tire, which they did buff and then quickly reverted).
But Junkrat's nature means he's always going to be situational, since his general damage and ability to pick off specific targets isn't quite as reliable as the attackers.
In fact, I would say that Junkrat might be the most balanced hero in the entire game outside of Reaper. Those are two heroes where I'm not sure I've ever seen anyone really demand a nerf or buff nearly to the degree they do others (outside of maybe Junkrat's tire, which they did buff and then quickly reverted).
But Junkrat's nature means he's always going to be situational, since his general damage and ability to pick off specific targets isn't quite as reliable as the attackers.
Yep, basically. Sadly, this entire thing started from a reply in response to a orthodoxy who had said that he doesn't like defense heroes and the reply being along the lines of 'defense heroes aren't bad! Mines great!' because this missed the entire point of why people get frustrated with defense heroes and doesn't really make orthodoxy's post less valid.
if it was prebuff d va
Doesn't really counter the statement and now turns it into a personal attack if we mention the issues with D Va, which people would, since there were a myriad of issues with her as a character.
I don't...think anyone actually said anything personal, it was just suddenly turned very personal from the way messages were set up.
Y'all complain about Bastion, but Blizzard has the solution. Just like how Hanzo is in every other game even though he has no business being there, Bastion will rise to infamy once everyone sees how ADORABLE he can be in the new animated short next week.
Be prepared.
Can we talk more about Bastion on KOTH beating my team and I wanted to cry because I didn't know that was a viable strategy (and run in tournaments by...c9?)
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