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Overwatch |OT8| Our love will last Pharah-ver

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L

LiK

Member
Enjoying Symm tonight. Fun to counter Rein's dumb shield with her alt fire. Seems to scare them.

Edit: love when a stacked team gets owned and they all pull out gold heroes. Dat tilt
 
R

Rickenslacker

Banned
Hmm, I wonder. So Lucio has the vital ability of passive and burst speedboost which is a boon for taxiing back to points and helping in team fights, but the former is what makes it so essential because it gives you less downtime in between pushes. I was thinking of a way to change this so that it's still has a unique function and use, but isn't so ubiquitous for teams. What if instead of a speedboost, Lucio's alternative AOE passive was a speed debuff on enemies? This would remove his taxiing ability, but would retain the speed advantage in chases.
 
U

UltimaPooh

Member
LiK said:
Enjoying Symm tonight. Fun to counter Rein's dumb shield with her alt fire. Seems to scare them.

Edit: love when a stacked team gets owned and they all pull out gold heroes. Dat tilt
Click to expand...

Good games tonight LiK and Owzers and any others!

It's all about dat Zenyatta switch!
 
B

BigDug13

Member
Rickenslacker said:
Hmm, I wonder. So Lucio has the vital ability of passive and burst speedboost which is a boon for taxiing back to points and helping in team fights, but the former is what makes it so essential because it gives you less downtime in between pushes. I was thinking of a way to change this so that it's still has a unique function and use, but isn't so ubiquitous for teams. What if instead of a speedboost, Lucio's alternative AOE passive was a speed debuff on enemies? This would remove his taxiing ability, but would retain the speed advantage in chases.
Click to expand...

People get pissed when characters slow their movement. People hate Mei for that reason. Having every game with a character that slows your movement would basically kill the enjoyment of the entire game.
 
R

Recreat3

Member
Unlocker the rapid discord achievement today when pushing the for the last point on dorado in a comp match. Pretty happy about that. Seems like one of rarer achievements in overwatch. Zenyatta has quickly become my main..going from reaper/mccree/soldier i just feel like i am contributing so much more to the team as a zen.

Roadhogs hook is constantly annoying the f out of me. Sometimes it feels like the reach of it ridiculous and i hate how he heals so quick. Thank god they are upping the cooldown on his hook. Yeh you guessed it, i hate roadhog haha.
 
I

I-hate-u

Member
I don't play PC OW so I wouldn't know, but Calvin's tracking is INSANE. He switches from a target to target without miss 90% of the time. Is such thing even possible without a bot?
 
R

Rickenslacker

Banned
BigDug13 said:
People get pissed when characters slow their movement. People hate Mei for that reason. Having every game with a character that slows your movement would basically kill the enjoyment of the entire game.
Click to expand...
Heh, I could imagine Lucios switching to pushing towards enemy spawns to slow their regroup too. Tossing this one in the trash pile.
 
A

Anne

Member
I-hate-u said:
I don't play PC OW so I wouldn't know, but Calvin's tracking is INSANE. He switches from a target to target without miss 90% of the time. Is such thing even possible without a bot?
Click to expand...

I checked his stats and my Tracer accuracy is 1% lower than his on average. He's better than me but it doesn't look unreachable or all that crazy at all. Just really good. I'd imagine it's probably you not seeing high level Tracer vods on PC then?

Also adderall is a hell of a drug.
 
B

Blues1990

Member
Rickenslacker said:
I think it's definitely an issue with Rein if it's a common belief that the rest of characters in the entire category are not considered real Tanks, that is a mindset that is entirely skewed by the existence of Rein. It doesn't help that the only real character that can contest him head on is another Rein. He perhaps does not need a change in his kit, but he definitely needs something to exist as a true hard counter to him.
Click to expand...
Like another tank hero that can counter Reinhardt's strengths?

Rickenslacker said:
Hmm, I wonder. So Lucio has the vital ability of passive and burst speedboost which is a boon for taxiing back to points and helping in team fights, but the former is what makes it so essential because it gives you less downtime in between pushes. I was thinking of a way to change this so that it's still has a unique function and use, but isn't so ubiquitous for teams. What if instead of a speedboost, Lucio's alternative AOE passive was a speed debuff on enemies? This would remove his taxiing ability, but would retain the speed advantage in chases.
Click to expand...

It depends on how severe the decrease is. Also, it wouldn't help solve the issue of Lucio being a necessity for most team comps.
 
I

I-hate-u

Member
Anne said:
I checked his stats and my Tracer accuracy is 1% lower than his on average. He's better than me but it doesn't look unreachable or all that crazy at all. Just really good. I'd imagine it's probably you not seeing high level Tracer vods on PC then?

Also adderall is a hell of a drug.
Click to expand...

Maybe it's his 76 then because it honestly looks like he is botting with that tracking.
 
R

Red Arremer

Member
Rickenslacker said:
I think it's definitely an issue with Rein if it's a common belief that the rest of characters in the entire category are not considered real Tanks, that is a mindset that is entirely skewed by the existence of Rein. It doesn't help that the only real character that can contest him head on is another Rein. He perhaps does not need a change in his kit, but he definitely needs something to exist as a true hard counter to him.
Click to expand...

Are you sure this belief isn't founded in some truth, though? Because it seems like Blizzard's definition of a tank is "dude/dudette who has twice or more the health of the standard 200".

A tank's role in basically any game is the following: Stand between the DPS of both sides, preferably with some way to draw fire, soak up damage and protect the less sturdy teammates from it, and provide some way to set up the DPS in the team to make it easier (usually in the form of CC). Obviously, this means that tanks usually are also built to endure more punishment than other classes.
In other words, tanks are a support class first and foremost, just that their type of support is very specific (protect and CC), while other supports often are built on healing or status effects.

Now, Reinhardt does all of that. He has the health and his shield to soak up damage. His shield is so big that it can blockade chokepoints and protect big areas (i.e. he draws fire). And his ult is heavy CC, in which he stuns people in a cone in front of him. The charge is mostly a mobility option to allow him to get back to the frontlines faster (even though it can be used offensively), and the firestrike is a tool to scatter enemies, or get a bit of ult charge faster.

Let's look at the other tanks.
Roadhog's only way to draw fire is because he's so big. Otherwise, he is built like a self-sufficient, beefy DPS. At best, you can consider him a Tank-DPS hybrid, but all of his tools are made to do damage, except his heal which is a replacement for the mobility/escape options that other actual DPS characters have. He just heals the damage he took instead of running away. For all intents and purposes, Roadhog is not a tank.

Zarya is by far the closest to be another tank. She can protect teammates (and herself) by mitigating damage, and her ult too is very powerful CC. However, her ability to protect her allies is, compared to Reinhardt's shield, extremely short. She also cannot reliably draw fire, especially since she has a small model and hitbox. I consider her to be fantastic as a secondary tank and DPS, because while she doesn't excel at either, she is solid at both damage and the support that tanks do.

Winston, in certain team compositions and maps, is capable of tanking - he has the bubble and his big hitbox to draw fire. However, he clearly is not built to be a tank. He's by far the most fragile of all the tanks, and actually requires support from his team to be effective, because he is built to be a harasser. He jumps in, causes disarray and jumps back out (if he survives, which in good teams he should do). That's why his jump is on such low cooldown. That's why his weapon locks onto multiple targets but doesn't do a lot of damage. That's why his ultimate has him turn into a big angry gorilla and knock people around even though he doesn't do much damage with it. And while his bubble can be used to protect allies, its intended function clearly is to extend Winston's survivability as he jumps into the enemy team.

D.Va is in a similar boat to Winston. She is built to be a harasser, flanker and counter-flanker. In particular, her role is to pick off high priority targets in the backlines - healers, snipers, Bastion. She flies past the frontline and starts mowing the backline down. Her Defense Matrix can protect allies, but it's size is extremely narrow, so it's mostly there to protect -her- from incoming damage while she waits for an opportunity to jump the opponent. I guess you could argue that her ult is an indirect CC by causing people to run and try to take cover, but ehhh.

So if you look at those characters, only Rein ticks all of the boxes. He has everything that makes a tank a tank. And not just high health.

Funnily enough, closer to being a tank at this point is a character who isn't even considered a tank by Blizzard: Symmetra.
She has the ability to protect and draw fire with her shield and her sentries. Her ultimate while not providing CC can be used to either give everyone a massive mobility upgrade (down to the point as potentially working like a revive) or protect them even further by increasing their health substantially. The turrets also give her map awareness and have a slow effect, making them essentially her version of CC - an enemy that's in a carwash of 3 or so turrets is slowed down significantly and thus much easier to take out.
I still don't think she's a tank (more like a tank-support hybrid), but she certainly is better at fulfilling that role than fucking Roadhog is.


Oh also, there is a hard counter to Reinhardt: Bastion. Bastion just utterly and completely shreds Reinhardt's shield to pieces. It's gone within seconds upon continuous fire. And Bastion currently is a lot better on PTR (plus the change to spread on his turret mode doesn't matter when firing at Rein's massive shield hitbox).
 
R

Rickenslacker

Banned
Red Arremer said:
Are you sure this belief isn't founded in some truth, though? Because it seems like Blizzard's definition of a tank is "dude/dudette who has twice or more the health of the standard 200".
Click to expand...
There is definitely some truth to it, but beyond the health pool the tanks categorically have a means of damage mitigation as well. It's just that unlike Rein they're all under the standard cooldown conventions of the game and have a more specific range and targeting to them. In this aspect, Reinhardt is just the faceroll tank more than anything, but I think the idea is really to make yourself a target that's hard to take down as opposed to what amounts to being a piece of mobile geometry.

Red Arremer said:
Oh also, there is a hard counter to Reinhardt: Bastion. Bastion just utterly and completely shreds Reinhardt's shield to pieces. It's gone within seconds upon continuous fire. And Bastion currently is a lot better on PTR (plus the change to spread on his turret mode doesn't matter when firing at Rein's massive shield hitbox).
Click to expand...
That's true. Will be interesting to see how that ends up panning out on the live servers.
 
R

Rickenslacker

Banned
Red Arremer said:
Since no other FPS games I know of actually have introduced the class of "tank" into their class selection, none.
It's not my fault that Blizzard is using labels that actually mean shit.
Click to expand...
It really just changes context being a competitive shooter. I've brought it up before but Heavy from Team Fortress 2 is essentially the tank of that game. He's very DPS oriented and can shred most things in range quick, but he's the tank because he can be a challenge to take down with the amount of health he has and offensive capability making him a priority target to take down. The difference being TF2 actually has different movement speeds for the classes so his drawbacks end up being the slowest movement in the game tied with a weapon that has spin-up and spin-down time that further slow him down.
 
A

Anne

Member
Instead of thinking about tanks mitigating damage, it's better to think about them as just directly controlling space. All of them are basically supposed to have strong presence, big health to maintain presence, and control the pace of fights.
 
R

Red Arremer

Member
Rickenslacker said:
It really just changes context being a competitive shooter. I've brought it up before but Heavy from Team Fortress 2 is essentially the tank of that game. He's very DPS oriented and can shred most things in range quick, but he's the tank because he can be a challenge to take down with the amount of health he has and offensive capability making him a priority target to take down. The difference being TF2 actually has different movement speeds for the classes so his drawbacks end up being the slowest movement in the game tied with a weapon that has spin-up and spin-down time that further slow him down.
Click to expand...

Sure. There's classes in various multiplayer shooters that lean towards the capabilities of tanks. In Tribes: Ascend, there was 3 beefy classes, and I remember one of them being specifically built to be an obstacle: low mobility, high damage, even a force field he can put down (I wanna say it was the Doombringer, but I haven't played Tribes in forever).

However, all of those classes were labelled as HEAVY classes. Not as TANK. The Heavy in TF2 isn't labelled tank either. He's labelled Heavy. Yes, he has aspects of a tank (high health pool, damage mitigation with the sandvich, draws fire because of the danger he poses but also his size).

That's kind of my point. It was Blizzard who labelled a character like Roadhog as a tank. He's tanky, and has aspects of a tank, but I do not think that tank is the right label for him. Yes, he has high health, and yes, he has damage mitigation, but both of these to me seem like a replacement of the escape mechanics that other DPS characters have. Where Reaper wraiths away or Tracer blinks out of danger, Roadhog just retreats into a safe corner and heals up instead.
 
R

Rickenslacker

Banned
I'm not particularly hung up on their terminology as calling them Tank or Heavy or otherwise could all be to the same end. I just think it's important to see what's there, how they work, and what the common thread is in how they get designed. Roadhog is definitely the most hybrid of the bunch though, much like Sombra acts pseudo-support.
 
A

Anne

Member
Yeah, name the classes whatever they want. I know what tanks do in this game and don't really care that they aren't MMO tanks or some shit.

I-hate-u said:
Isn't that the purpose of the defense characters though?
Click to expand...

Kinda. The defense characters common trend was that they were all intended to be more static and control space without directly being in it. Obviously that didn't work out.
 
P

Papercuts

fired zero bullets in the orphanage.
Rickenslacker said:
I'm not particularly hung up on their terminology as calling them Tank or Heavy or otherwise could all be to the same end. I just think it's important to see what's there, how they work, and what the common thread is in how they get designed. Roadhog is definitely the most hybrid of the bunch though, much like Sombra acts pseudo-support.
Click to expand...

Symmetra too. Always stuck out to me that she was put as support while torb is defense. Though defense in general is kinda weird.
 
I

I-hate-u

Member
I think it depends on the comp your team is running with regards to Reinhardt. If say you have the likes Genji/Winston/Pharah/Tracer/D.Va as your DPS/Tank, then there is few characters that play behind his shield and makes him less valuable. He is not needed for sure in dive comps. The only thing that makes it more tough is the Earthshatter of the enemy Rein. which your team is going to be free too.

It's a problem that is going to slowly fade away after more heroes get added to the game that either counter Rein, or overlap with his shielding ability.
 
A

Anne

Member
It's less of what your team has and what the other team has. Counterplaying Rein without Rein is a huge issue they will eventually need to address. Lucio has the same problem. Either they have to nerf very specific parts of Rein, or they need to make it easier to make a comp that can deal with him without having to have him via adding new tools/heroes.

I don't like the idea of having an overlapping hero because instead of it being "just have Rein" it would just be "pick one of these two dudes"
 
V

veloxStrix

Banned
Reinhardt's purpose is to move forward, shifting the space with which your team contests. Think of him as a mobile border between your teams territory and the enemy team. Your goal as Reinhardt should be to work with your team to manipulate the enemies space until it is disadvantageous - or if you are defense, to maintain the best space for your team. Protecting your team is just a step in the process.

In dive comps, you can still run Reinhardt and do something very similar by speed boosting in and creating that space quicker - allowing you to more easily get picks. It's just that the time it takes for Reinhardt to make that space allows the enemy team to react - meaning it ends up being more difficult. That's why you see Winston instead of Rein on dive comp teams. Winston's barrier instantly creates a pocket of space to play in. Whereas Rein can cordon of massive stretches, Winston controls a small pocket of carefully placed territory for your team for a short period.

Just so people have a better understanding of the underlying mechanisms that make Reinhardt so essential.
 
S

shintoki

sparkle this bitch
First Comped game

"Fucking unranked"


Well, no one stopped you all from rolling over and dying in the first stage of the game. Losing the first point in 30 seconds. Nor paying attention to sides.

>_>
 
GraveRobberX

GraveRobberX

Platinum Trophy: Learned to Shit While Upright Again.
Holy Fuck

Mystery Heroes what the fuck!?!

Gave the team 4 Roadhog on enemy side with a Mercy and Ana

Our team all squishies

Took till 95% to get all 4 of those fat fucks down
Then steamrolled them by camping there base and not letting them leave lol
 
A

Antiwhippy

the holder of the trombone
So bought another 11 lootboxes. Bought 22 altogether this event.

Barring mei's red one (I prefer the other one anyway) I think I got everything I'd want.
 
V

Vitanimus

Member
FoxSpirit said:
I can't wait for the Mercy res change, that will help out such a boatload when triple ressing. So many situations where I triple res, get insta killed by the 4 remaining enemy team members, then watch my team die because no healer.

Looking forward to that.
Click to expand...

I personally welcome our new battle mercy meta. Stuck with a tracer bomb? Rez. About to get frozen? Rez. Want to 1v1 someone for shits and giggles? Rez?
pwou69d.gif
 
J

Jellie

Member
So weekend comp is rarely a good idea but what did I do to deserve this?
Of the 6 games I played today, 4 had trolls in and the only reason I won one of the games with a troll was because the enemy team had one too.
 
S

Skii

Member
Jellie said:
So weekend comp is rarely a good idea but what did I do to deserve this?
Of the 6 games I played today, 4 had trolls in and the only reason I won one of the games with a troll was because the enemy team had one too.
Click to expand...

Lol glad I didn't come on today.

Just look at the team comps. Your team is 5 DPS and one healer and the other team is 2/2/2 with good heroes. How do you carry that?
 
A

Antiwhippy

the holder of the trombone
Again.

Weekends are for other games.

Also a good rule because if not the only game I'll ever play from now on is just overwatch lol.
 
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