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Overwatch |OT8| Our love will last Pharah-ver

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Papercuts

fired zero bullets in the orphanage.
and reaper's ult altho i feel his is very egregious because he never shoots upwards in his animation. it has a surprisingly tall vertical hitbox, too

That got me so tilted before. I have died to his ult as pharah way too much.

But yeah I agree they should do a hitbox passover on Rein. His charge is BS in both directions, people sometimes bounce off of a clear hit and othertimes get suctioned into it.
 
Yes, and?

Shake Appeal has not mentioned Roadhog or his hook's hitbox in that post you quoted. That was solely you.
The last time Shake Appeal mentioned Roadhog was on January 12th, in a post that was not related to the hook (he was listing characters in regards to learning them), while the last time Shake Appeal used the word "hook" was on January 5th in OT7, where he is talking about Sombra's utility in regards to hacking Roadhog to disrupt his hook.

So...?

Roadhog's bad hitbox on the hook gets complained about because it's a bad hitbox that feels like bullshit 90% of the time it catches you or when I caught someone with it as Roadhog. Reinhardt's bad hitbox feels like bullshit 90% of the time it catches me or I catch someone with it as Reinhardt, but people think it's okay because of "balance." Which I think is a bad argument, because I can't think of bad hitboxes being anything but objectively bad because the developers are misinforming the player about the mechanics of the game. It's bullshit when an Cyclops catches you in Dark Souls 2, it's bullshit when a Reinhardt catches you with charge when you think you're going to miss it.

Reinhardt's bad hitbox gets complained about less because it:
a.) Is still extremely hard to land
thus b.) makes getting exposed to it much less likely
it also c.) puts not only Rein but also his entire team into an exposed position
and d.) Reinhardt is vulnerable before, during and after the charge, including helpless states during wind-up and after crashing into a wall.

It therefore is much easier to punish or prevent the Rein trying to utilize the bad hitbox.

Meanwhile the hook is a basically 100% safe pick option. Roadhog does not have to expose himself to use it. Roadhog does not have to jeopardize his team to use it. Roadhog does not have to get out of position to use it. Hook has no startup and does not enter Roadhog into a helpless state upon completion, making it a 100% safe skill to use, even upon missing it, where the only drawback is having to wait on the cooldown to tick down. Upon hitting the hook, Roadhog also does not put himself into a vulnerable position, but he puts the enemy into one. If the hooked target doesn't die already due to the gun-melee combo (i.e. is a tank), they still are extremely out of position and usually within the entire enemy team, allowing for a pick even if Roadhog is not able to finish the deed. And to top it off, before the PTR changes, Roadhog could hook people through walls. Reinhardt cannot charge through walls.

Reinhardt, even if he does land a charge, he will be out of position, and he isn't even guaranteed to get a pick if he lands it, because he could be killed during the charge, or as he crashes into a wall if he pinned a tank.

Reinhardt's charge isn't complained about as much as Roadhog's hook because yes, it IS more balanced than the hook. The bad hitbox barely even matters. So why would people complain as much or more about Reinhardt's charge hitbox, if it isn't nearly as impactful as Roadhog's hook hitbox?
 

ohkay

Member
I don't think I've ever thought that a Rein charge I've gotten caught by was bs, it's mostly being caught by random unsuspecting charges not intended for me, but clearly that hit me. It's like dying to random scatter arrows. Roadhog's hooks are a whole different story
 

Odrion

Banned
Shake Appeal has not mentioned Roadhog or his hook's hitbox in that post you quoted. That was solely you.
Yes, and? I suddenly can't bring up a notorious example of a bad hitbox people complain about in the game and then ask why charge doesn't get criticized? Then after people answer build upon that with "I don't think we should argue for bad hitboxes for the sake of balance"?

Roadhog's bad hitbox on the hook gets complained about because it's a bad hitbox that feels like bullshit 90% of the time it catches you or when I caught someone with it as Roadhog. Reinhardt's bad hitbox feels like bullshit 90% of the time it catches me or I catch someone with it as Reinhardt, but people think it's okay because of "balance." Which I think is a bad argument, because I can't think of bad hitboxes being anything but objectively bad game design because the developers are misinforming the player about the mechanics of the game. It's bullshit when an Cyclops catches you in Dark Souls 2 even though you clearly dodged him, it's bullshit when a Reinhardt catches you with charge when you think you're going to miss it.
 

cyborg009

Banned
We had a dude who had no time on comp as a dps playing dps in the end we couldn't capture the point on nimbani. But then on defense we were able to hold it down.


I shredded through their tanks as symmetra
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIrq_PxSD0U&
SlightNaturalIndigobunting.gif
 
I agree but I don't really know what they can do to him to change anything. I don't think the HP on his shield matters since just having it gives an edge, and firestrike/charge aren't really that crazy. His ult is insane though.

Doesn't help that they sorta of designed themselves into a wall with rein being the counter to rein which is never good. If one team has him and the other doesn't, they're going to get rolled and wiped by earthshatter.
Rein is in a tough spot with his utility being unique at the moment, Lucio had (still has) the same issue in that his speed boost is incredibly valuable in a game where movement speed is fairly standardized across the characters but they've still taken him down a notch.

Rein has weaknesses and vulnerability. That seems to be the main thing Blizzard accounts for when balancing.

Blizzard wants to make sure that heroes aren't good at too many things, and have natural drawbacks that other heroes can capitalize on at the right time.

Rein is extremely vulnerable when his shield is down, and even during his charge.
He has vulnerabilities, but his vulnerabilities do not make him a situational pick, it just makes him a pick that the other team has to mirror and the weaknesses and vulnerabilities are determining factors to which team ends up having the advantage.

I'm well aware of that. But that doesn't make Rein OP like Rickenslacker seems to imply (by saying that "he has to be looked at" and whatnot). He's perfectly fine. It's just that his role is so important to the current modes' gameplay that he is invaluable to just about any team composition and map situation.

There's simply no alternatives to main tanking and reliably protecting the squishies from damage. If there were alternatives like there are for healers or DPS, you would see various characters being swapped out on occasion, like Zenyatta sometimes getting picked over Lucio, or Tracer sometimes getting picked over Soldier, etc.
This is exactly why he's not fine. Having a character so imperative as a universal pick means something's wrong somewhere, and I don't necessarily agree that a homogeneously designed alternative character is the best idea as you get into a McCree Soldier balance dichotomy. It doesn't help that one of the main things that can penetrate the shield is an enemy Reinhardt. It's generally seen that Reinhardt is the "real" tank and that every other tank is the "off" tank, but what does tanking actually mean? Being a meat shield for your team, which I think is something sufficiently handled by everyone else.

I don't know what they can do honestly, but D.Va has multiple attacks that pierce through her DM. Reinhardt's shield could probably use the same.

Or maybe just let Sombra hack through the shield like she could for a hot second in the PTR. Kill two birds with one stone.
 

Antiwhippy

the holder of the trombone
If you see more dive comps this patch you're going to see less rein and more Winston, guaranteed.

You can already see that last night.
 

Paltheos

Member
That's pro matches. Which goes to show how unwilling people in regular matchmaking are to play one of the most important characters in the game. So many "tank mains" that only play Zarya, D.Va, and Roadhog.

I've said it before, I think the best way for me to climb from Diamond to Masters (if I cared, because I've pretty much given up on Competitive) would be to give up being a support main and just become a straight-up Rein main.

No kidding. People are adamant against picking Rein allot. I enjoy playing the hero, and I speak up whenever anybody shittalks him saying he's boring, but sometimes I don't wanna play him. He's my most played hero by necessity, not choice - By about a.... 30% margin? to my second most played hero (It used to be close to 50% but the lead narrowed a bit when I dropped to low elo where I could Hog freely). I play allot of heroes and it's a pretty decent lead comparatively.

Once I get home I'll post my play time numbers. >_>
 

NeoRaider

Member
Hasn't happened to me yet, but I think I can count the total number of Sombra POTGs I've seen on one hand, anyway.

Since she went live i only saw 1 or 2 not really sure. But definitely not more than 3.

And when i think about how excited i was when i bought that Highlight Intro... will i ever get POTG on live?? :(
 
This is exactly why he's not fine. Having a character so imperative as a universal pick means something's wrong somewhere, and I don't necessarily agree that a homogeneously designed alternative character is the best idea as you get into a McCree Soldier balance dichotomy. It doesn't help that one of the main things that can penetrate the shield is an enemy Reinhardt. It's generally seen that Reinhardt is the "real" tank and that every other tank is the "off" tank, but what does tanking actually mean? Being a meat shield for your team, which I think is something sufficiently handled by everyone else.

Being a tank isn't just being a meat shield or having a lot of health, being a tank is to draw enemy fire and to set up the damage dealers to do their damage. That's what Rein does and is good at. But he's the only one who has both the defensive and utility capabilities to do it.

I'm also not asking for a homogenized alternative character, but rather a character who can fill a similar role as Reinhardt does. Zarya is the closest to this with her ult and CC-wiping shields, but her bubbles have too little duration and "reach" (for lack of a better word) to be a reliable protection. Winston also gets somewhat close, but is too much built around being a harasser rather than a tank.

Also, there's not that much stuff that Reinhardt's shield blocks that goes through D.Va's matrix. The only thing I can think of from the top of my head is Zarya's beam. Symmetra's beam goes through both shield and matrix, Symmetra's balls go through shield but not matrix, melee attacks go through both. Winston's tesla gun I'm actually not sure, thinking about it. McCree can stun Rein by tossing it above Rein, where D.Va can absorb his flashbang. And I believe that D.Va can absorb more ultimates than Rein can block with his shield.
 

Nimby

Banned
I thought some people were using Sombra at a high level because of how you can abuse hacking medkits

Only one team really does this. It can have decent success, she is one of the biggest counters to Reinhardt because just using EMP breaks his shield. She isn't a typical offense hero which is where teams are trying to force her into. If the game kinda flip-flops and we have 1-2 tanks and 2-3 DPS, Sombra could come into play.
 

Skii

Member
I got a 2.2k Transcendence POTG in QP a week or so ago, but that was just from a Hanzo ult going through a Graviton.

This one that I got in Competitive Season 2 is far more entertaining, I Transc'd through like 9 Ults: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSr9xu__6gE
They just keep calling out Ults one after the other, it cracks me up everytime I watch it.

I think the most impressive thing about that is you body blocked your team from their Dva ult lol.
 

Jblanks

Member
I got a 2.2k Transcendence POTG in QP a week or so ago, but that was just from a Hanzo ult going through a Graviton.

This one that I got in Competitive Season 2 is far more entertaining, I Transc'd through like 9 Ults: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSr9xu__6gE
They just keep calling out Ults one after the other, it cracks me up everytime I watch it.

I had a 3.9k Zen Ult the other day. There was a Graviton and and a Nano boosted Genji swiping his sword; might've been something else too. Wasn't POTG(M) though, nut got a card..
 
Being a tank isn't just being a meat shield or having a lot of health, being a tank is to draw enemy fire and to set up the damage dealers to do their damage. That's what Rein does and is good at. But he's the only one who has both the defensive and utility capabilities to do it.

I'm also not asking for a homogenized alternative character, but rather a character who can fill a similar role as Reinhardt does. Zarya is the closest to this with her ult and CC-wiping shields, but her bubbles have too little duration and "reach" (for lack of a better word) to be a reliable protection. Winston also gets somewhat close, but is too much built around being a harasser rather than a tank.

Also, there's not that much stuff that Reinhardt's shield blocks that goes through D.Va's matrix. The only thing I can think of from the top of my head is Zarya's beam. Symmetra's beam goes through both shield and matrix, Symmetra's balls go through shield but not matrix, melee attacks go through both. Winston's tesla gun I'm actually not sure, thinking about it. McCree can stun Rein by tossing it above Rein, where D.Va can absorb his flashbang. And I believe that D.Va can absorb more ultimates than Rein can block with his shield.
Given how the entire class category works, I do think Rein is the outlier and not the guideline of what it should be. The others do just fine in being high health targets that can disrupt and bait and take a beating, Rein is just the most direct team multiplier version of it. If you're a DPS and you play around D.Va, she can most definitely be your shield while you do your thing -- Reinhardt as he currently exists is just the faceroll version of it.

Symmetra's beam gets blocked by Rein, but Winston's tesla goes through both, Roadhog's hook can go through DM as well, but there's no character that really serves as a direct counter to Reinhardt, just team play and concentrated fire. To go back to McCree and Soldier, we're in a sort of similar situation with Mercy and Ana at the moment where they fill similar-ish roles but one gets outclassed by being more effective at it.
 

antitrop

Member
Yea I couldn't believe it and didn't even notice it until it showed up as a card, I thought it was a glitch or something. I should've ss it.
The card is the combined total of all your Transcendences, but you can see your individual highest by pressing Tab.
 

Jblanks

Member
The card is the combined total of all your Transcendences, but you can see your individual highest by pressing Tab.

Yea my bad, I had like 5k trans healing and I thought to myself I only used it a few times that seemed really high, and I had like 8.5k healing total. So I checked and it was almost 3.9k. They really need to have highlights as saveable, I'm always too pumped when something sick happens to do anything about it..
 

antitrop

Member
Yea my bad, I had like 5k trans healing and I thought to myself I only used it a few times that seemed really high, and I had like 8.5k healing total. So I checked and it was almost 3.9k. They really need to have highlights as saveable, I'm always too pumped when something sick happens to do anything about it..

That's what I liked about playing on PS4, it was super easy to clip those spontaneous moments that don't get picked up as Highlights. I could setup Shadowplay on PC, but I just don't bother.
 

rulerk1

Member
played QP for like 3 hours today. Why does no one on the PS4 playerbase want to play support? Im assuming im actually the person the matchmaking puts in but how is it my five teammates dont want to heal and the healers they have are liek 15th most played hero

The scary thing is I rarely see "We need a healer" when no one is playing one.
 

antitrop

Member
played for like 3 hours today. Why does no one on the PS4 playerbase want to play support? Im assuming im actually the person the matchmaking puts in but how is it my five teammates dont want to heal and the healers they have are liek 15th most played hero

The scary thing is I rarely see "We need a healer" when no one is playing one.
Supports on PS4 are fucking unicorns.

It was like night and day when I switched to PC, people fight over Ana.
 

ohkay

Member
played for like 3 hours today. Why does no one on the PS4 playerbase want to play support? Im assuming im actually the person the matchmaking puts in but how is it my five teammates dont want to heal and the healers they have are liek 15th most played hero

The scary thing is I rarely see "We need a healer" when no one is playing one.
Maybe they realize how hypocritical it is to ask for a healer when they're in a position to switch to one
 

Jblanks

Member
That's what I liked about playing on PS4, it was super easy to clip those spontaneous moments that don't get picked up as Highlights. I could setup Shadowplay on PC, but I just don't bother.
Yea I'm on PS4 but I still forget a lot; sometimes I'll remember. Should just have an in-game option.
played QP for like 3 hours today. Why does no one on the PS4 playerbase want to play support? Im assuming im actually the person the matchmaking puts in but how is it my five teammates dont want to heal and the healers they have are liek 15th most played hero

The scary thing is I rarely see "We need a healer" when no one is playing one.

Yea it happens a lot more in QP then it used to. Usually when I'm in a party of 2 or 3 playing QP one of us is guaranteed a healer, and the other person is either another healer or a tank(s). My highest played DPS character in QP is Junkrat with like 9 hours of of a combined 180 hours. It's even better when I'm a healer and there's a DVa or Genji across the map spamming 'I need healing', and I'm just sitting on the payload pushing it myself.

If I don't feel like going solo healer, and the rest of the team refuses to also, I'll just go a character that can heal themselves - Mei, Hog, or Zarya who can regain her shields back.
 
I've had a bunch of Widow mains today.

One was amazing
One knew he wasn't landing shots and switched off after first point
One barely killed anyone against a team running 4 DPS, 1 tank, 1 healer and no rein

That 3rd one especially, blocked 32k damage as rein trying to make sure that widow can snipe and nothing lands. Even misses an ulting pharah at range.
 

Jellie

Member
Ugh had the worst game for a while just now. Lost 2-1 on Hanamura pretty badly.
Genji main called Genji. Did nothing of note with Genji, even with nanoblade so changed to Pharah. For defence he went Zen and complained about how he had gold damage as a support despite being the DPS for 8 minutes and support for 1 minute 30 seconds.

His rival for gold damage on DPS was a Sombra. Fell off the map going to B, after we took A basically ruining our best chance to push. She had her ult too. Went symmetra on defence trying to 1 v 6 a triple tank line up 10 seconds into the round. Pretty standard outcome after that. Complained our master ranked played was carried to masters when he was forced to Lucio since the Sombra and her duo didn't want to support when we had 2 tanks a support and a DPS already locked in.

At least I prevented the 24 hour decay I guess.
 

Antiwhippy

the holder of the trombone
Catching up on the early parts of the envyus vs mvp match and man, I'm glad korean overwatch is back. It's been a lot more entertaining than the NA scene.
 

papasmurf1038

Neo Member
I've been playing more D.Va in situations where I'd usually pick Winston and yep, she is just frighteningly effective right now! Pretty much every time I pick her though, some formerly silent player will hook up their mic, yell at me for "stealing" their main, and then choose a tantrum Widow or attack Torb for the rest of the match. And in those rare situations where the D.Va main tries to be flexible and pick Rein or a support, they're just so utterly incapable of performing those roles that it feels like a net negative for the team even if I'm doing really well on D.Va.

Picking her just seems like more of a hassle than it's worth, currently.
 
no update?

If I had to choose between a useless D.Va and current D.Va I'd go with the useless one.

Preach. She can easily out DPS the DPS, and she has extreme survivability, she needed to be scaled back. D.Va mains are too blind to see she had too much utility (especially compared to the other tanks), and did everything too well. I don't buy the whole "bubububu-t she's a tank she's supposed to soak up damage", being a tank doesn't guarantee you to be a bullet sponge, it just means you have a higher health pool. Look at Winston, if he soaks up all the team damage, he dies. D.Va and Winston have a very similar role in being a disruption tank, but D.Va does everything Winston can...better than him, post patch I'm hoping to see Winston more in the wild!

I've been playing more D.Va in situations where I'd usually pick Winston and yep, she is just frighteningly effective right now! Pretty much every time I pick her though, some formerly silent player will hook up their mic, yell at me for "stealing" their main, and then choose a tantrum Widow or attack Torb for the rest of the match. And in those rare situations where the D.Va main tries to be flexible and pick Rein or a support, they're just so utterly incapable of performing those roles that it feels like a net negative for the team even if I'm doing really well on D.Va.

Picking her just seems like more of a hassle than it's worth, currently.

I'm a big fan of Winston, but in this D.Va world... it's really not worth playing him. I choose him situationally, but I'm gonna go back to using him more often when the patch hits! I don't touch D.Va though, someone always picks her.
 
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