PA on EA
- Thread starter GhaleonEB
- Start date
Shogmaster
Member
Deg said:
Fixed.
worldrunover
Member
Just like the Yankees continue to beat the competition fair and square*. Right.
*-- I understand they didn't actually beat the competition this year. But you get my point.
*-- I understand they didn't actually beat the competition this year. But you get my point.
iapetus said:
Bingo.
And I don't think this counts as 'beating the competition fair and square'.
Last year, Madden outsold Sega's game by 10:1. This year it's closer to 1.5:1. EA reduced their earnings forecast for this quarter a few months ago, and blamed lower than expected sports sales for it. Clearly, rather than compete they shoved a shitload of cash at the NFL to undermine VC's ability to even do business. Perhaps all is fair in busness (I'm a financial analyst for Intel, trust me I know), but it was as low as you could go.
What I find funny is the EA supporters who are trying to say that somehow Sega/VC/T2 were in the wrong by charging less for a game. I'm getting this impression that some people are seriously convinced that righteous judgement was met out upon Sega & Crew by the Angry EA gods.
FortNinety
Member
DavidDayton said:
I think it's fairly obvious at this point that EA fans are by far the worst. They will justy and purchase anything.
Virgin Wii
Banned
Matlock said:
Only, that didn't sell. Try again.
FrenchMovieTheme
Member
guys, get this through your FUCKING HEADS:
99% of the true sports fans on this board PREFER MADDEN FOOTBALL OVER ESPN! i have more sega sports games than EA games period, but i'm not going to just STOP buying EA games because some people are crying about EA's deal. it's like DM or someone else said in another thread, if SEGA had gotten the exclusive NFL deal none of you would be whining. you would say "THATS WHAT YOU GET DEVIL! I LOVE THE UNDERDOG! VC NUTS IN MY COFFEE EVERY MORNING AND I LOVE IT!"
EA has guaranteed they will by far and away be the market leader in football videogames. don't call it a bitch move. that's like crying after your team loses a football game because the other team took a knee and ran the last two minutes out in a tight ballgame. WAH WAH WAH WHY DIDNT YOU GIVE MY TEAM A CHANCE! THATS NOT IN THE SPIRIT OF COMPETITION! well guess what, you have 58 minutes prior to that to take the lead and you didn't, so you just have to deal with it.
perhaps if sega/vc weren't so inept at marketing their games up to this point they would have more $$$$ to compete for the license. it fucking took an outside company (take 2) coming in JUST to get VC sports line back on its feet. the only ones that VC has to blame for this are themselves. they do make good games, but their marketing/pr is a fucking joke, and no matter how big of a sega/vc fan you are you will admit to this. cry me a fucking river dudes
99% of the true sports fans on this board PREFER MADDEN FOOTBALL OVER ESPN! i have more sega sports games than EA games period, but i'm not going to just STOP buying EA games because some people are crying about EA's deal. it's like DM or someone else said in another thread, if SEGA had gotten the exclusive NFL deal none of you would be whining. you would say "THATS WHAT YOU GET DEVIL! I LOVE THE UNDERDOG! VC NUTS IN MY COFFEE EVERY MORNING AND I LOVE IT!"
EA has guaranteed they will by far and away be the market leader in football videogames. don't call it a bitch move. that's like crying after your team loses a football game because the other team took a knee and ran the last two minutes out in a tight ballgame. WAH WAH WAH WHY DIDNT YOU GIVE MY TEAM A CHANCE! THATS NOT IN THE SPIRIT OF COMPETITION! well guess what, you have 58 minutes prior to that to take the lead and you didn't, so you just have to deal with it.
perhaps if sega/vc weren't so inept at marketing their games up to this point they would have more $$$$ to compete for the license. it fucking took an outside company (take 2) coming in JUST to get VC sports line back on its feet. the only ones that VC has to blame for this are themselves. they do make good games, but their marketing/pr is a fucking joke, and no matter how big of a sega/vc fan you are you will admit to this. cry me a fucking river dudes
FFT: You're missing the whole point.
Entirely.
It's about competition, it's about having a choice. EA has determined that we shouldn't have that choice.
Plus, many people prefer SEGA's game to EA's, the split is almost even (in favour of EA). To eliminate competition where it is so close...it's a sad day for football fans.
99% of the true sports gamers know that this will hurt football games.
Entirely.
It's about competition, it's about having a choice. EA has determined that we shouldn't have that choice.
Plus, many people prefer SEGA's game to EA's, the split is almost even (in favour of EA). To eliminate competition where it is so close...it's a sad day for football fans.
99% of the true sports gamers know that this will hurt football games.
FrenchMovieTheme said:
You are precisely the type of EA fanboy peeps in this thread are refering to. How in the world can you blame Sega/VC for lack of marketing when they already don't have any money to begin with??? Not to mention they are going against a jaugernaut that is E fucking A. It's an uphill battle and they weren't going to win it over night. They made some very good moves though with the resources they had, and 1/10th the development team that EA has on Madden. Man come back to reality and put all this into perspective. EA themselves saw how hard VC was bringing it this year, so they upped and bought the NFL license. And regardless of how you try to spin it that was a Bitch move! If they were confident in their product and their abilities they would have stuck their ground. But they're not.
FrenchMovieTheme said:
Care to back up that 99% number? The sales data and general tone on this board sure as shit don't.
If you support EA, fine. If you prefer their game, fine. But to blame VC for EA's actions just makes you a tool. EA looked into the future and saw real competition. The pumped as much money into undermining that competition as it took. The only way this is VC's fault is that they competed so well this year, both in quality and marketing.
Really, anytime consumers lose choice, we all lose. It's that simple. I never bought a football game, and never well, but this just stinks to high heaven.
FrenchMovieTheme
Member
i'm not missing the point. i understand that its bad for competition and so on blah blah. but the dramaqueens are ridiculous. Sega Sports isn't going anywhere. I am personally STILL buying ESPN Football 2k6, nfl rosters or not, because i enjoy the gameplay enough to pay $20. i am also buying madden, because i enjoy the gameplay enough to pay $50.
i honestly don't think it's going to absolutely kill football games. infact, crazy as this may sound, i am actually looking forward to ESPN football now because VC can go a lot of different directions. Mature themes, harder hits (which the NFL outlaws in its games), the possibilities for an awesome game are there. I understand that lacking an NFL license is going to take a chunk out of the games sales. but the bottom line is that the game is STILL only $20, and a lot of people who dont really follow football will buy it (just like they did this year).
i just find it ridiculous that people want to boycott EA or riot in the streets over it when it is AN INCREDIBLY INTELLIGENT BUSINESS MOVE. keep in mind every company who makes games are a business first (good or bad)
i honestly don't think it's going to absolutely kill football games. infact, crazy as this may sound, i am actually looking forward to ESPN football now because VC can go a lot of different directions. Mature themes, harder hits (which the NFL outlaws in its games), the possibilities for an awesome game are there. I understand that lacking an NFL license is going to take a chunk out of the games sales. but the bottom line is that the game is STILL only $20, and a lot of people who dont really follow football will buy it (just like they did this year).
i just find it ridiculous that people want to boycott EA or riot in the streets over it when it is AN INCREDIBLY INTELLIGENT BUSINESS MOVE. keep in mind every company who makes games are a business first (good or bad)
FrenchMovieTheme
Member
how can i blame sega as a COMPANY? they are a poor fucking company dating back to the mid-90's! They set themselves up for this. Poor business decisions are what they have made over the past decade, and this is the result. What has EA done? Made incredibly smart business decisions. Sega has NO ONE TO BLAME BUT THEMSELVES! they were a major force 10 years ago! i don't even think they are a top 10 3rd party company (sales wise) today (could be wrong). THAT is what i mean when i say blame themselves. I wonder if the execs at sega are somewhat like you, it would explain a lot.
Advisor: Mr. Hardknock sir, I have a proposition that can't fail! I wrote up a detailed report, it will net the company millions!
Hardknock: Eh... I looked at it. I think it's kind of a bitch move. I agree that it would net the company a shit load of cash but well... i just can't do it. Sorry man, not like this is a business though right??
the general tone of this board... haha! i'm not talking about the people who hype up a sports game months and weeks before its launch, then play it for the first week its out and are never seen again. or the people that say they will participate in online leagues before a game comes out, then when the game comes out they disappear. i'm talking about the hardcore fans who are still in espn nba/madden online leagues. and i can back that number up. i'm pretty sure konex is the only person who prefers ESPN nfl.
understand that i'm not saying "this is VC's fault!" based on this last year. I think they did very well. but look back to 2000. they WERE competing with madden. NFL 2kx sold a million copies. Then Madden 2001 came out for ps2, it was obviously GRAPHICALLY superior to the dreamcast NFL 2k1, and what does sega do? Jack shit. Then the game comes to Xbox/PS2, what does sega do? Lets EA rape them for another 2-3 years. It took Take 2 to come in and set things right. Sega/VC have no money. that is not VC's fault, but it is segas fault. VC was too slow to adapt a business strategy to compete with EA, and now they are going to pay for it. it doesn't make it politically correct or "right" in anyones eyes, i am just stating why it's happening
We'll see how well it pays off.
I also consider it a sign of EA running a bad business. It may turn out to be a great move, but it was definately done to cover up and make up for their bad business practices.
We know that despite less marketing, and a much smaller team VC was able to put up a lot of competition. EA's costs were far greater, and despite that VC was able to compete. To get rid of this measely competition, EA will spend $300 million.
For that, they'll have to sell at least a couple hundred thousand more copies of the game each year (assuming that EA makes $30 off of each game) to make the same amount of money as they do now.
It is also a reaction to the fact that VC's games were improving and gaining marketshare. EA had 2 choices...improve their own game, or buy out the license.
I'm not saying that they will stop improving their games, but it will occur at a slower pace. There is no reason for them to rush and make their game twice as better as last season's...not ONE reason. In this way, I see it hurting football games.
FrenchMovieTheme
Member
"none of you" being the fans who are up in arms about EA getting it
FrenchMovieTheme
Member
i don't dispute that. i have made multiple threads in the past couple months of my disgust with the way EA handles its customer service issues.
good points. this last year was the lowest selling madden since madden 2001 i believe (might be wrong), so they need to sell more than a couple hundred thousand extra. however, i believe they WILL be able to approach madden 2004 numbers again with madden 2006.
moreso gaining marketshare. NFL 2kx has always competed with madden (quality wise) since its inception. madden has always been better, but it's not like NFL 2kx was QBC.
i will tell you how i see things as a madden fan in regards to "improvement". if EA were to do a handful of things to balance things out in next years game (more realistic penalties, smooth out the movement more, balance things back into the offenses favor just a bit, add some new animations and improve the run game) then the game would easily be worth my $50. and i would be willing to pay another $20 for online franchise. the bottom line is madden is so good they dont NEED to make madden 2006 "twice as good" as madden 2005 in order to justify a purchase. madden has been so finely tuned over the past decade that incremental improvements are all i want. if they were to drastically change the game i would be pretty pissed off. but thats just the way i feel personally.
FrenchMovieTheme
Member
no, because the people getting worked up aren't true hardcore sports fans. that "99% madden prefered" is in regards to hardcore sports football fans. these dudes aren't hardcore sports fans (and if they are then they're absent from any sports gaming discussions ive been involved in on the boards, and i involve in all of them)
FrenchMovieTheme
Member
SOUL POWER!!!!!
FrenchMovieTheme said:
I just find it ridiculous that people wanted to boycott slavery or riot in the streets over it when it is AN INCREDIBLY INTELLIGENT BUSINESS MOVE. Crazy americans!
I also find it ridiculous that people wanted to boycott mafia or riot in the streets over it when assassinations are AN INCREDIBLY INTELLIGENT BUSINESS MOVE!
I just find it ridiculous that people and the antitrust wanted to boycott so many monopolies or riot in the streets over them when they are AN INCREDIBLY INTELLIGENT BUSINESS MOVE.
I FIND RIDICOLOUS THAT PEOPLE COMPLAIN ABOUT IMMORAL AND / OR SELFISH PRATICES THAT BRING PERSONAL GAIN.
Is there something more important than personal gain in this world? Something in name of which one should sacrifice his strictly selfish interests? IMPOSSIBLE!
I long for a world where moralistic idiots will finally realize that personal gain justifies everything, that complaining about selfishness is lame, and everyone will finally think exclusively about his own pockets - screw everyone who isn't me! HEAVEN ON EARTH!
Not
I agree...the newest game doesn't have to be twice as good, that was bad wording on my part. And you aren't the only one who's going to be happy with 2006...the series is polished as is.
What does worry me is the fact that we are going to hit another generation of consoles, one where AI, physics, and most importantly animations are going to be improved like no other time in videogame history.
Competition is really going to push developers to make use of this hardware in new and innovative manners*.
Judging from history (examples include NFL 2K3 on Xbox, NHL 2K3 on Xbox, EA's NHL 97 on PSOne, and some more I'm sure you can think of), the first generation of sports games on next gen consoles will not be much more than the existing old generation game with relatively average improvement in visuals. The second year sports titles usually feature a lot more in the way of control, AI, and graphics. What has pushed this was competition. (ESPN NHL 2K3 vs 2K4 featured a world of a difference in graphics and presentation. EA tried to match it this year with 2005.)
I really think this next gen will be the generation where sports games will be hard to distinguish from real life, because the animations and graphics will be on another level. I see it as a pivitol time to remove competition.
Your arguement that Madden doesn't need that many improvements (but rather, tweaking) makes perfect sense when we are talking about one generation of consoles. But when we are moving to another platform that can change sports games as we know them, I see it as a critical time for improvements, a chance for developers to change games as we know them.
*On a side: I was talking to some fellow programmers about mixing animations with a physics based system and some AI, so that a character learns how to walk, balance itself, and run based on their intelligence rather than having a present animation, and using such characters in a sports game. It's a long ways off because we don't have the processing power for whole teams of players, but a mixture of pre-recorded animations as well as this AI can be implemented in next gen games.
Another thing to consider...EA thought they had hockey tied up for good. They had nearly 90% market share from '98-2002. From 2001-2003 their improvements were marginal, and in some cases, ridiculous (an "improvement" was to have the lights of the stadium go out when someone was on a breakaway to shine a spotlight on him and to slow things down to slo-mo a la the Matrix...can you imagine such a thing in Madden?). They got away with this because there wasn't much competition sales wise.
My point is...it's happened before...could it happen again?
FrenchMovieTheme
Member
nothing EA is doing is illegal, and comparing this to slavery is a fucking joke and an insult.
no offense Ar but you are being a fucking retard
no offense Ar but you are being a fucking retard
FrenchMovieTheme
Member
i don't see that happening with madden for a few reasons.
first of all, madden football is probably the biggest name in all of videogames on a year to year basis. football is also the new national passtime. hockey isn't nearly as popular as football.
another reason is john madden himself. one of the main reasons you saw a dramatic shift in the balance of power (offense vs defense) in madden 2005 is because john madden himself stepped in and voiced his displeasure with some of the aspects of madden 2004 (easily convertable 4th downs, no defense, etc.). madden doesn't want his name associated with a shoddy product. again, madden football is a HUGE deal. it is covered on sportscenter, in magazines and in highlight shows months and weeks before its release. this is EA's cash cow, their #1 franchise and they're going to treat it right.
all in my opinion of course
first of all, madden football is probably the biggest name in all of videogames on a year to year basis. football is also the new national passtime. hockey isn't nearly as popular as football.
another reason is john madden himself. one of the main reasons you saw a dramatic shift in the balance of power (offense vs defense) in madden 2005 is because john madden himself stepped in and voiced his displeasure with some of the aspects of madden 2004 (easily convertable 4th downs, no defense, etc.). madden doesn't want his name associated with a shoddy product. again, madden football is a HUGE deal. it is covered on sportscenter, in magazines and in highlight shows months and weeks before its release. this is EA's cash cow, their #1 franchise and they're going to treat it right.
all in my opinion of course
Nah, I'd consider that all fact.
Really, all of that is true and we all know it to be the case. It's a sound arguement. While Madden can help in some regards...it's up to the guys at EA to push the graphics and audio side of things, areas where Madden won't be of much help. The fact that EA has yet to adopt things like bump-mapping makes me a bit skeptical.
Ar made a good point.. even if his analogies were a bit harsh...
sometimes you just have to take a stand against something that is obviously wrong, whether or not it was a "good business move".
It's not a matter of which football update we buy each year (if any), but rather a matter of principles.
although business ethics don't really exist in America anymore.. this is capitalism, and the way corporations function naturally is to strive towards shutting out competitors and building a monopoly.
Honestly, I don't think any one individual can control a corporation's tendencies..
The opportunity to shut out the competition presented itself, and EA took it because it will make them money and it's not illegal to do so. Call it a "bitch move" or whatever you want, but I have a feeling that the people at EA who made this decision weren't thinking about the threat of growing quality in VC's game; they were purely concerned with ESPN's low price and shutting out the competition..
And on that note is another reason why this is bad.. For all we know, Madden will retail at $55 or even $60 next year.
Remember how EA's sports games dropped in price last year in the face of ESPN's $20 games? I'm sure even EA fans can appreciate that aspect of what the competition brings.
The only reason EA does this is because they can and it will help them grow faster. It seems wrong, but it's legal, so they do it.
it needs to be illegal.
sometimes you just have to take a stand against something that is obviously wrong, whether or not it was a "good business move".
It's not a matter of which football update we buy each year (if any), but rather a matter of principles.
although business ethics don't really exist in America anymore.. this is capitalism, and the way corporations function naturally is to strive towards shutting out competitors and building a monopoly.
Honestly, I don't think any one individual can control a corporation's tendencies..
The opportunity to shut out the competition presented itself, and EA took it because it will make them money and it's not illegal to do so. Call it a "bitch move" or whatever you want, but I have a feeling that the people at EA who made this decision weren't thinking about the threat of growing quality in VC's game; they were purely concerned with ESPN's low price and shutting out the competition..
And on that note is another reason why this is bad.. For all we know, Madden will retail at $55 or even $60 next year.
Remember how EA's sports games dropped in price last year in the face of ESPN's $20 games? I'm sure even EA fans can appreciate that aspect of what the competition brings.
The only reason EA does this is because they can and it will help them grow faster. It seems wrong, but it's legal, so they do it.
it needs to be illegal.
I find this all fascinating. Not as football fan, because I'm not and haven't touched a football videogame since Joe Montana on the Genesis. But the idea that many hold that no license = no compete seems incredibly jaded and makes me wonder what the merit of "competition" is if it relies on a license. Is it impossible for someone to make a VERY GOOD videogame that represents the actual game of football authentically without the license and have it sell well? Would any of the licensed football games suddenly cease to garner any sales if the next yearly update had no license? Just as an example, ESPN NFL2K5 on XBox looks like its around a million in sales right now...so does that just completely dry up next year if its just ESPN Football 06?
If the answer is Yes for all those questions, then it sounds like everyone's much more interested in playing the license than they are in playing the game. In which case, who cares how many publishers get to use the license if they don't have to put a game behind it for it to be considered "fun"?
If the answer is Yes for all those questions, then it sounds like everyone's much more interested in playing the license than they are in playing the game. In which case, who cares how many publishers get to use the license if they don't have to put a game behind it for it to be considered "fun"?
kaching said:
The thing is that, with official licensing, you actually get to see virtual reflections of your favorite sports teams. You can BE Tom Brady, or T.O., or even Ricky "Sticky Icky" Williams. With the technology available to us today, the on-screen players can look just like their real-life counterparts. There's something to be said for that level of realism, and it's what we've come to expect during the last ten years or so in our sports games.
Back in the 16-bit era, we were fine with generic numbers and stadiums and simple city names. That's just inexcusable today for a simulation. In an arcade sense (a la Blitz: Playmakers), I think that could still work... but not in a game like Madden or the former NFL2Kx series. Football fans want and expect the real deal now. The license is every bit as important as the the rest of the experience to most sports fans.
john2kx said:
Sooner or later, the $50 MSRP bubble for software is going to burst. It's been prophesized for a while now. Development costs are rising. So are ad costs, salaries, packaging, and other expenses. Shareholders want to see more profit, too. With all of this pushing, someone, somewhere will buck the trend and sell a game for $55 or $60. When other companies see that the average gamer will pay the extra money (which they will), they'll follow suit.
Games have sold for $60+ a pop before, and it'll happen again. I can easily see $60 for third-party releases and $50 for first-party games.
Take Two could have still sold a ton of copies of GTA: San Andreas had they bumped the MSRP to $55 or $60. I don't see why EA wouldn't think about doing the same for Madden.
FrenchMovieTheme said:
Here in the USA, it's BEEN the national pastime since the last baseball strike. The NFL, NASCAR, NBA, and MLB make up the four major sports here.
The NHL is deader than a doornail here in the USA. Nobody here cares if they came back or not. People would much rather spend their time watching the World Series of Poker, the National Spelling Bee, the World Scrabble Tour, the World's Strongest Man competition, or just about anything else instead of hockey.
Good thing that other countries do like the sport, or else there'd be a lot of unemployed men with a full set of teeth between them.
FrenchMovieTheme
Member
i meant nfl > nhl in the u.s. only. i don't even know if there is much of a following with the NFL outside of the states or not.
but back to the subject at hand, sadly for many people a license IS important. lets take a game completely out of the sports genre, x-men legends. i didn't really like baldurs gate (ps2), or champions of norrath, or dungeons + dragons (xbox), but i really liked x-men legends. what was the difference? all of these games were generally within the same ballpark gameplay wise. both were action/rpg's. the reason i enjoyed X-men is because i grew up on the characters and i liked playing as the x-men.
it is the same with football. will ESPN Football 2k6 be a good game? without a doubt. Will i buy it? Yes. but lets say i enjoy espn and madden on EQUAL levels, and someone says to me "you can only have one. madden has NFL/NFL PA, ESPN does not. ESPN is $30 cheaper. Which do you want?" I would choose madden. it isn't the only thing, but it is important to play as your team, and run a franchise with "your team" from real life etc. that is the draw of the license. you get to see your team win the superbowl when the odds are it aint happening in real life.
john you also make a good point. would it cost EA more money to buyout this license over a 5 year period, or drop its price by $20-30? lets do the math:
license: $300 million
Dropping price: $30 per unit X appox 3 million units a year (across the major platforms) X 5 years = $450 million in "potentially" lost revenue over the 5 years
i know those numbers aren't exact and you can throw other variables in, but this is likely what EA was looking at. make no mistake about it though, i don't think it's fair that other companies (not just sega) can't use NFL teams/players in their game. i'm saying EA has made sound financial investments over the past 10-15 years, and now they are reaping the benefits of being an outstanding business by having the capital to pull something like this off. people are mad at EA's success. guess what? they had to work to get here, and contrary to (what seems like) popular belief, there is no brainwashing machine that automatically makes people buy their products. videogamers enjoy EA's games
but back to the subject at hand, sadly for many people a license IS important. lets take a game completely out of the sports genre, x-men legends. i didn't really like baldurs gate (ps2), or champions of norrath, or dungeons + dragons (xbox), but i really liked x-men legends. what was the difference? all of these games were generally within the same ballpark gameplay wise. both were action/rpg's. the reason i enjoyed X-men is because i grew up on the characters and i liked playing as the x-men.
it is the same with football. will ESPN Football 2k6 be a good game? without a doubt. Will i buy it? Yes. but lets say i enjoy espn and madden on EQUAL levels, and someone says to me "you can only have one. madden has NFL/NFL PA, ESPN does not. ESPN is $30 cheaper. Which do you want?" I would choose madden. it isn't the only thing, but it is important to play as your team, and run a franchise with "your team" from real life etc. that is the draw of the license. you get to see your team win the superbowl when the odds are it aint happening in real life.
john you also make a good point. would it cost EA more money to buyout this license over a 5 year period, or drop its price by $20-30? lets do the math:
license: $300 million
Dropping price: $30 per unit X appox 3 million units a year (across the major platforms) X 5 years = $450 million in "potentially" lost revenue over the 5 years
i know those numbers aren't exact and you can throw other variables in, but this is likely what EA was looking at. make no mistake about it though, i don't think it's fair that other companies (not just sega) can't use NFL teams/players in their game. i'm saying EA has made sound financial investments over the past 10-15 years, and now they are reaping the benefits of being an outstanding business by having the capital to pull something like this off. people are mad at EA's success. guess what? they had to work to get here, and contrary to (what seems like) popular belief, there is no brainwashing machine that automatically makes people buy their products. videogamers enjoy EA's games
