Well if you're just stating that leucine is necessary, we aren't arguing.
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Paleo Diet 101: How and why you should eat like a Caveman
- Thread starter Dash27
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Well if you're just stating that leucine is necessary, we aren't arguing.
Nah I just have issue with this "suggesting that the muscle building effect of protein is due to the extra calories rather than a special feature of that macro."
I'm not even saying more than 1.35kg does provide benefit. I just know that the above isn't correct.
edit:
You do still need caloric surplus and it all doesn't need to be protein...if that is what they meant, they stated it in a bad way, but it is correct.
Fair enough. I'll see if I can find the paper. Note I'm not saying that you can build muscle without protein. In the bit you quote there I'm referring to the effect of overfeeding protein while bodybuilding - ie from sufficient protein to excess. The argument is that any further benefit is derived from excess calories regardless of the source, in the context of sufficient levels of protein to build muscle.
Edit: I think we might be on the verge of agreement
And it's no doubt me that stated it badly, not the authors of the paperOh damn
I can buy 10 pounds of chicken for 20.00. How much would that run you??
10lbs = 4,5kg right? 4,5kg of chicken (breast) would cost ~50€ which is 65$. And that's the cheapest breast I can find, other brands are even more expensive. Legs are of course cheaper but they have so little meat in them.
Fish is pretty expensive too. The usual rainbow trout (farmed) is normally 15-20€/kg but can sometimes be found for 7-8€/kg if it's a really good offer. Even then there's normally some kind of limit on how many you can buy. Today I bought two whole rainbow trouts and they were 5€/kg so pretty cheap. But it was a special sale which is like once a year. Canned tuna etc. is 1.5 - 2€ per can. Might have to start eating more of it again...
All of the meat in Finland is grain-fed. We don't have grass fed really. Some farms grow cattle which is basically grass fed but the prices are pretty fucking high because of this. Like 20€/kg for mince meat and you'd have to buy 10kg at once or something. They don't even sell this stuff at the stores. It's delivered to your home. Don't know about the antibiotics situtation in here.
All in all food is really expensive in Finland. And I'm a student so virtually all my money goes to food nowadays
Fair enough. I'll see if I can find the paper. Note I'm not saying that you can build muscle without protein. In the bit you quote there I'm referring to the effect of overfeeding protein while bodybuilding - ie from sufficient protein to excess. The argument is that any further benefit is derived from excess calories regardless of the source, in the context of sufficient levels of protein to build muscle.
Edit: I think we might be on the verge of agreement
Ahh cool I think we do agree actually
LittleBoots
Member
I just came across this thread so maybe it's already been covered and I didn't see it. Anyway, I was wondering if people knew where to get low carb foods such as breads, noodles, and such. Maybe Whole Foods or Trader Joe's? I know they have things to choose from on Amazon, but I was hoping to find products in a supermarket.
I can't help you since I'm not living in the US but the idea behind paleo is to ditch bread, noodles and such altogether. It is NOT a low carb diet like Atkins (it's lower than the SAD though).
LittleBoots
Member
It's really the wrong thread to be asking that question though. The regular "weight loss" thread may be better. Majority of carbs for someone on a paleolithic diet are going to come from vegetables, fruits, and potentially some starches and dairy. Removing processed foods and grains from your diet is pretty much the intersection where all the different variations of paleo agree.
Bought a huge supply of sweet potatoes at costco last night.
Any got some good recipes? Preferably baked sweet potato fries
They're really nice just nuked in the microwave and topped with salt and butter. Also:
Fries:
Peel and chop sweet potatoes (natch).
Line baking tray with foil, melt a lump of beef dripping on it, about a tablespoon.
Place chips on tray, flip a couple of times to coat in dripping.
Add salt, pepper, paprika, turmeric, cumin.
Bake for 20 minutes, gas 7, 220C, turning once.
Sweet potato, chicken and chorizo hash (depending on the extent of your paleo-ness and attitude to processed meat you may want to use something else). Serves 2.
Ingredients:
1 large sweet potato
100g chorizo
1 chicken breast.
3 sweet peppers, various colours
1 onion.
Butter
Creme fraiche (if doing dairy)
Cube potato, and microwave - 5 mins, turn, 5 more mins.
Dice onion and chop peppers, and fry in butter, low heat for ten minutes minimum.
Chop chicken and chorizo, add to pan.
Add spices as preferred - I add garlic granules, paprika, cumin, salt and pepper.
Let cook for a few minutes so the fat comes out of the chorizo and flavours everything.
Add sweet potato cubes, allow to cook for another ten minutes.
Serve and put a whacking great dollop of creme fraiche on top.
Just saw this keto recipe for a pizza on reddit:
http://mariahealth.blogspot.ca/2012/12/amazing-pizza.html
Looks pretty good.
http://mariahealth.blogspot.ca/2012/12/amazing-pizza.html
Looks pretty good.
The early Taubes articles are worth trying - when it comes to convincing people, they have the benefit of being published in mainstream news/science sources. (The latter is available as a PDF at Taubes' website)
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/07/07/m...been-a-big-fat-lie.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/291/5513/2536.summary
However, they are more focused on the bad science that said saturated fat was bad for us, rather than arguing it's actually good for us. I still think the A to Z diet study is then the next thing to show them (I linked to it earlier in this thread), as it shows clear benefits of a high saturated fat Atkins style diet, including CVD markers, which is what everyone crapped themselves about wrt saturated fat in the first place. So then you have a one-two punch of 'the science saying fat is bad is rubbish; this is what actually happens when you eat lots of it'.
Phoenix
Member
Kinda where my definition is as well, and I've done exceptionally well dropping and keeping off a large amount of weight.
use bacon grease. it tastes better
Olive oil isn't saturated.
There are differences in saturated fats. Coconut oil is medium chain. Liver can utilize it faster.
A fair percentage of it is, both palmitic and stearic acid are present. It's mostly oleic though, which is monounsaturated. But then pork fat is only around 40% saturated, and has plenty of monounsaturated, as does beef fat.
But that aside, yes there are differences in saturated fatty acids, which come from their length, as teh_pwn says - longer chain fats supply more energy, and below a certain length are processed differently.
Differences between fats (ie lard, butter, olive oil) are down not only to their relative amounts of saturated, monounsaturated and polyunsaturated fatty acids, but also their relative levels of particular fatty acids within each group - butter differs from coconut oil in that the former is very high in long chain palmitic acid, while the latter is mostly shorter, medium chain fatty acids. But both are very high in saturated fats, just of different lengths.
As to what's best, don't over think it. Saturated of all kinds is good, as is monounsaturated. Get a good mixture and favour the ones you like. Minimise polyunsaturated by avoiding vegetable oils.
Edit: aw yiss, member.
Olive is predominantly monounsaturated. Saturated fats come from animals and tropical plants. There are different kinds, but they're all good for you. It's best to get a wide variety of fats in your diet. Well, variety in general is good. Speaking of fats, I think Ghee has become my new favorite cooking fat, even more so than coconut oil. It just gives food this amazing, buttery, subtle taste, it's amazing
curious, whats cheaper? Ghee, Lard, butter or coconut oil? Right now, Im rocking the butter because, well, its the most widely available option
In the UK, lard is cheapest, then butter, then ghee. Coconut oil is either not widely available (cheap, refined stuff) or sell-a-kidney expensive (virgin health food store stuff).
I strongly approve of your focus on butter, it is the absolute shit.
Cool. I've been trying to spice it up with the fats and use all different kinds. I rotate with olive oil, coconut oil, butter, and ghee. In the US, butter seems to be the cheapest. I found coconut oil to be pretty cheap at a Walmart, though. The brand is called Lou Ana.
How can you tell if the coconut oil is really refined and such? The only ingredient listed was coconut oil, so I thought it was safe.
How can you tell if the coconut oil is really refined and such? The only ingredient listed was coconut oil, so I thought it was safe.
LouAna coconut oil is refined, not cold pressed and not a virgin oil.
Considering the price that was kinda expected but it seems to be ok nonetheless, since it is not hydrogenated.
Coconut Oil? - Dee's Support Circle Forum
Butter is the cheapest. Than Coconut oil, than Ghee. By me anyway. Don't use lard. I consider bacon more of a cooking fat than food too, so there's that.
It'll say it right on it. Virgin, Cold Pressed, Organic, whatever. Or really, just taste it. If it has no taste, it's refined, if it taste like coconut, it's unrefined. Both are fine though, refined is good if you want to cook at high heat with no taste.
I dropped about 10 lbs in January by staying pretty strict on a primal diet and exercising only semi-regularly (cardio on 11 out of 31 days of the month, by my count). But lack of exercise and frequent cheats through February have me at about the same weight now as I was a month ago.
Decided today (coincidentally after polishing off a bowl of ice cream at lunch time) that I'm going to bust through this rut/malaise by starting my own version of this "Whole30" thing today...a sort of "Primal30."
I'm going to keep my diet clean, simplify life, and make a concerted effort to incorporate into my life some of the "laws" outlined in the primal blueprint. Namely:
1) I plan on making more time for both exercise and "play" by limiting the time I spend on the internet. I have a bad habit of mindlessly browsing the net after work and it really eats up the free time I have to be productive or engage in more enjoyable entertainment options. I am also going to try to get in some form of movement (even if it is just a leisurely walk) every day over the next 30 days.
2) I plan on keeping my diet clean and primal...'nuff said!
3) Through this past week I have been trying to restructure my evenings in a way that allows me to consistently get into bed at an earlier and regular time. My bed time had been pretty variable before that and I would find myself struggling with energy levels and hunger on days that I wasn't getting enough sleep. I'm aiming for no less than 7.5 hours of sleep per night, with a preference for 8 hours.
Wish me luck!
I picked up some ghee last month at Whole Foods and have been using it pretty regularly. It's good stuff. It has this very buttery smell/taste, but it just isn't "creamy" like butter is (which is fine by me since I am not spreading it on anything). And most convenient for me is that ghee stays fresh for months (I was regularly throwing away some of my butter because I just couldn't use it up fast enough when it was fresh).
Decided today (coincidentally after polishing off a bowl of ice cream at lunch time) that I'm going to bust through this rut/malaise by starting my own version of this "Whole30" thing today...a sort of "Primal30."
I'm going to keep my diet clean, simplify life, and make a concerted effort to incorporate into my life some of the "laws" outlined in the primal blueprint. Namely:
1) I plan on making more time for both exercise and "play" by limiting the time I spend on the internet. I have a bad habit of mindlessly browsing the net after work and it really eats up the free time I have to be productive or engage in more enjoyable entertainment options. I am also going to try to get in some form of movement (even if it is just a leisurely walk) every day over the next 30 days.
2) I plan on keeping my diet clean and primal...'nuff said!
3) Through this past week I have been trying to restructure my evenings in a way that allows me to consistently get into bed at an earlier and regular time. My bed time had been pretty variable before that and I would find myself struggling with energy levels and hunger on days that I wasn't getting enough sleep. I'm aiming for no less than 7.5 hours of sleep per night, with a preference for 8 hours.
Wish me luck!
I picked up some ghee last month at Whole Foods and have been using it pretty regularly. It's good stuff. It has this very buttery smell/taste, but it just isn't "creamy" like butter is (which is fine by me since I am not spreading it on anything). And most convenient for me is that ghee stays fresh for months (I was regularly throwing away some of my butter because I just couldn't use it up fast enough when it was fresh).
Thanks for the coconut oil advice. Kinda bummed to find out the brand I bought isn't that great, but I'll just use this up and buy better next time.
In regards to this...well... I just experienced this today. Maybe I should cool it on the fat until my body adjusts. I don't think I'm eating too much protein, but just in case: Are 3 eggs, high fat Greek yogurt, one chicken breast, and then either a piece of fish or other kind of meat throughout the day. That's not too much protein, is it?
In regards to this...well... I just experienced this today. Maybe I should cool it on the fat until my body adjusts. I don't think I'm eating too much protein, but just in case: Are 3 eggs, high fat Greek yogurt, one chicken breast, and then either a piece of fish or other kind of meat throughout the day. That's not too much protein, is it?
woo and indeed hoo
Banned
Bought a huge supply of sweet potatoes at costco last night.
Any got some good recipes? Preferably baked sweet potato fries
A lovely simple way to cook them is to just roast them like one would ordinary potatoes. This is how I generally cook them and it brings out the delicious sweetness of them no end!
The very best of British luck to you sah! I'm gearing myself up to get back into it and in a similar way to you too
.Doesn't sound like too much protein to me.
As for coconut oil, I'd just use up what you have now and then buy the good stuff next time (virgin/unrefined).
They'll give you cancer. Avoid charring/burning the meat to help prevent them. That being said, cancer causing activities/compounds lurk around every corner of this world; you have to pick and choose your battles. Personally, I'm going to keep eating grilled meats.
Oh goodness. I had my first conscientious cheat meal today, and I'm not even going to go on about how bad it was. That's one thing about going back to my parents' house......they try to feed you and you can't really refuse. But let's just say my insulin levels probably spiked to that of eating two large hot fudge sundaes and then some....and I only wish I was kidding
Since I"m spending the day here with them, I have one more meal to eat which isn't actually that bad.....but....ugh......this is tough. I hope I didn't ruin any progress I've made
Since I"m spending the day here with them, I have one more meal to eat which isn't actually that bad.....but....ugh......this is tough. I hope I didn't ruin any progress I've made
SquiddyCracker
Banned
Heads-up:
There's a new Tropicana juice with 50% less sugars&calories by replacing some of the natural fruit sugars with stevia.
Might be useful to those who can't give up juice, but want to cut down on sugar nonetheless.
There's a new Tropicana juice with 50% less sugars&calories by replacing some of the natural fruit sugars with stevia.
Might be useful to those who can't give up juice, but want to cut down on sugar nonetheless.
infiniteloop
Member
So they took out 50% of the sugar, and added an artificial sweetener that's sweeter than sugar?
woo and indeed hoo
Banned
Does anyone know anything about the 'exercise before eating carbs so the body has to use body fat for energy' ruse that I've seen mentioned on teh internets?
I know we have a dedicated Fitness thread but I thought someone in here could probably clue me in.
I need to get back into exercise and a more paleo friendly diet so am thinking of switching my exercise time to take advantage of this.
I'm just wondering if there's anything of worth to it or whether it's just one of those bs things that one reads on the internet from someone who says "im an expert".
I know we have a dedicated Fitness thread but I thought someone in here could probably clue me in.
I need to get back into exercise and a more paleo friendly diet so am thinking of switching my exercise time to take advantage of this.
I'm just wondering if there's anything of worth to it or whether it's just one of those bs things that one reads on the internet from someone who says "im an expert".
I've heard various rumblings about eating carbs before or after, training fasted or all of that. I honestly relegate all that stuff to the 5% - 10% of the total effect of your diet. If you get my meaning.
In other words to me the big movers of weight loss are quality of food, calorie intake, energy expended. By quality of food I mean whole foods as paleo suggests, get enough protein and enough fat, limit sugar, the rest will take care of itself.
Having said all that, I took a quick look at carb backloading which is maybe what you came across as well. The best I can figure, he is saying you're essentially in a ketogenic state (fat burning, body producing ketones to give to the brain instead of glucose) when you wake up since you're fasted for a while. The idea seems to be to go keto as much as you can throughout the day, then workout, then grab your carbs.
I havent tried it myself yet.
In other words to me the big movers of weight loss are quality of food, calorie intake, energy expended. By quality of food I mean whole foods as paleo suggests, get enough protein and enough fat, limit sugar, the rest will take care of itself.
Having said all that, I took a quick look at carb backloading which is maybe what you came across as well. The best I can figure, he is saying you're essentially in a ketogenic state (fat burning, body producing ketones to give to the brain instead of glucose) when you wake up since you're fasted for a while. The idea seems to be to go keto as much as you can throughout the day, then workout, then grab your carbs.
I havent tried it myself yet.
woo and indeed hoo
Banned
Thanks Dash; that's how I understood it too. It makes sense I guess. I might try it and see how I get on with it. Or not. I'm still trying to work up the enthusiasm to get back into regular exercise but failing miserably in that regard even though I know I'll feel so much better for it :/. Oh well, if I do try it I'll mention how I got on with it in here.
yeah there are a few podcasts floating around with the carb backloading guy... whose name escapes me now, talking to Robb Wolf who is a big voice in the paleo world. Interesting stuff and they come out and say it's nothing magical, just a strategy to employ on body composition. So yeah could be worth doing.
I know AlienShogun on the fitness thread mentioned it a few times and seemed to like it.
I know AlienShogun on the fitness thread mentioned it a few times and seemed to like it.
After you exercise your body will be depleted of its glycogen. So eating carbs after a workout will severely limit the effect on blood sugar and insulin, the muscles will quickly suck up the sugar to "restock" and it won't stay in the blood stream nearly as long. It's why people eat things like bananas after a workout, quick way to get sugar back in their muscles, and a much better effect on blood sugar.
woo and indeed hoo
Banned
Oh thanks. Normally I'd have my biggest meal of the day after I exercise e.g. some meat like a steak, some potatoes and some green veg, and usually pretty much straight away. That's worked well for me so far. Any reason for me to switch to eating a banana immediately and then prepare the meal as I normally would?
jamesinclair
Banned
Its like impossible to find drinks in this country that aren't super sweet.
Its pretty ridiculous
Got my own sciency question:
Can someone explain the role of insulin when it spikes in conjunction with eating fat?
Let's say you have a perfectly Paleo meal with a good intake of fat, and before or after or during the meal you eat something with sugar (or something else) and it spikes your insulin. Does the insulin cause the fat to be stored rather than used for energy and your body will automatically take the sugar first? Or does this only happen if you're not "fat-adapted"?
Bonus question: Why do carbs from grains spike your insulin but carbs from veggies do not?
Bonus comment: I thiiiiiiink I'm becoming more fat-adapted. I seem to be able to go longer without getting hungry and without getting overly tired. I don't think I have the low-carb flu anymore!
Can someone explain the role of insulin when it spikes in conjunction with eating fat?
Let's say you have a perfectly Paleo meal with a good intake of fat, and before or after or during the meal you eat something with sugar (or something else) and it spikes your insulin. Does the insulin cause the fat to be stored rather than used for energy and your body will automatically take the sugar first? Or does this only happen if you're not "fat-adapted"?
Bonus question: Why do carbs from grains spike your insulin but carbs from veggies do not?
Bonus comment: I thiiiiiiink I'm becoming more fat-adapted. I seem to be able to go longer without getting hungry and without getting overly tired. I don't think I have the low-carb flu anymore!
You don't need to eat a starch post workout, it's just something people like to do. It is the best time to eat them though, as far as minimizing blood sugar spikes. And if you're eating a potato, it'll have the same effect.
Which country? Water? Tea? Coffee? Occasional diet soda? Naturally sweetened alternatives [Sobe Lifewater 0, Zevia, ect.]?
jamesinclair
Banned
The us, I'm saying that even the diet drinks are extra sweet.
Three no such thing as regular, diet and less sweet
I don't have the firmest grasp of the process, but sod it, here goes. Correct me where I slip up, anyone.
When you've not eaten for a while, your body relies to a large extent on the breakdown of stored fat (triglycerides) into fatty acids, which are released into the bloodstream then taken up by other cells to be used as fuel. Triglycerides are stored in fat cells (adipocytes). They are broken down into fatty acids in a process known as lipolysis. Insulin is a powerful inhibitor of the lipolysis process - it stops triglycerides being broken into fatty acids and they remain stored in the adipocyte. At the same time, it removes glucose from the bloodstream either through uptake to cells to be burned, or converted into fatty acids through a process known as de novo lipogenesis.
When you eat a meal, insulin is stimulated to a greater or lesser extent depending on both the macronutrient intake and overall calories. Lipolysis is inhibited, and de novo lipogenesis from carbohydrate may occur.
Going from here, I would assume that the more carbohydrate is eaten, the greater the rise in insulin levels, the longer it remains raised, and the longer lipolysis is prevented. The overall effect may then be that the more carbohydrate eaten, the longer it takes to return to fat-burning. I think, but am not sure, that fat eaten during a meal is mostly stored anyway, but with low insulin levels would not hang around for long before being burned in the lipolytic reaction. Using an analogy, when you eat lots of fat it's like pushing a load of people into a room where they can freely exit through a door at the other end. When you add a significant amount of carbohydrate the door at the other end is locked, and the amount of carbohydrate determines how long for.
As for grains vs veg - it comes down to carbohydrate density and accessibility. Grains in the form of flour are 80% carbohydrate, vs around 20% in even the more carb-laden veg, which are mostly water. In vegetables they are also stored in intact cells that must be broken down before the glucose can be absorbed, whereas in refined flours the carbohydrate is almost immediately accessible. Overall, you absorb more carbs, quicker, from grains than veg, so have to produce more insulin more quickly to deal with it.