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[FryHole]

Name it something else, then. This thread is really frustrating. Hey everyone, there is this diet based on paleolithic eating habits. But, we are going to eliminate some of the foods they ate from the diet and call it paleo anyway. Cause they were not optimal.

Oh and for the next three pages folks will pop in and explain how they love this diet but still eat the eliminated foods anyway (cheese, some grains, and processed deli meat). But hey lets still call it paleo.

I guess I just don't get it. Maybe we are being too literal but its seems contradictory.

Why not just call it the whole foods diet and be done with it?

It's a fair point. I don't have a huge amount of time for the hardcore version. I guess I just take 'paleo' as shorthand for 'keep in mind our evolutionary history when choosing what to eat' - as a framework that you build on, rather than just go 'omg can't eat that, it's not paleo'. It's distinct enough from whole foods with the emphasis on meat and fat, i think, to warrant its own name. I can see why it might be annoying, but surely not as heinous as "I'm a vegetarian, oh but I eat fish"

Edit: I guess my point is 1) its got to be named something, and it takes the inspiration from paleo eating habits but 2) it's not a reenactment society.

 

[oneils]

It's a fair point. I don't have a huge amount of time for the hardcore version. I guess I just take 'paleo' as shorthand for 'keep in mind our evolutionary history when choosing what to eat' - as a framework that you build on, rather than just go 'omg can't eat that, it's not paleo'. It's distinct enough from whole foods with the emphasis on meat and fat, i think, to warrant its own name. I can see why it might be annoying, but surely not as heinous as "I'm a vegetarian, oh but I eat fish"

Edit: I guess my point is 1) its got to be named something, and it takes the inspiration from paleo eating habits but 2) it's not a reenactment society.

Just seems odd when I see all the junk like "eat like a caveman!" I don't think that kind of marketing does this movement any favours.

However, when explained like this. It makes a lot more sense.

 

[FryHole]

Just seems odd when I see all the junk like "eat like a caveman!" I don't think that kind of marketing does this movement any favours.

However, when explained like this. It makes a lot more sense.

I agree about the caveman marketing - it's just asking for snark from certain quarters. It's also probably very effective in getting certain other demographics - such as young males - interested. I just take what's useful and ignore the rest.

 

[leroidys]

I thought diets high in animal protein have way increased rates of cancer?

 

[SeanR1221]

I thought diets high in animal protein have way increased rates of cancer?

According to animal rights groups.

 

[teh_pwn]

How is this a "diet"? This is just really the way you should eat and everybody should be familiar with it.

The United States has promoted a grain heavy, low fat diet for a long period of time. It continues to recommend against eating animal products, particularly animal fat, and instead recommends olive oil (cooking temperature be damned) or highly processed seed oils (treated with high heat and hexane to extract...questionable).

I thought diets high in animal protein have way increased rates of cancer?

I've only read conclusions of this in Dr Campbell's work, but the data doesn't imply it.

 

[ZackieChan]

I tried this diet for a week last year.
I first heard about it on the Joe Rogan boards and was really excited to try it.

For breakfast I had a poached egg and some fruit (usually a banana).

For lunch I had grilled chicken breast and a handful of mixed nuts.

Dinner would be grilled chicken breast with salad leaves and some fruit for afters.

In-between these meals I would also drink plain whey protein shakes as I go to the gym regularly...

I felt terrible.
Always hungry, really lethargic, moody/snappy.

I gave up after a week because I thought it was unfair on my girlfriend as I was so snappy and tired. I also felt hungry and nauseous a lot.

Should I have stuck at it longer? Would it have passed?

Maybe I should have mixed up what I ate a bit more? Are plain whey isolate shakes with water allowed?

You weren't doing Paleo at all. You had almost no fat, you ate a banana (not a Paleo fruit, stick to berries), had almost no food (Paleo/Primal tells you to eat until you're not hungry any more), and no vegetables (lettuce has almost no nutritional content, correct?). If you try it, you need to give it more time and do it for real. Feels great, man. Load up on those veggies!

I'm one of the ones, like others in this thread, who loves the ideas behind this way of eating but despises the marketing/branding. Eliminating grains and sugars and eating loads of veggies is a great way to eat. I don't care whether or not cavemen did it. Those who are against it, you need to stop looking at it that way. It's more of a basis for the way of eating and a hook, than a strict guideline.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Best thing I ever did for my health was to give up grains and sugar and processed junk about two years ago. Moving to a paleo-like diet completely changed my life. I lost over 80 lbs, feel great every day, eliminated the frequent cases of stuffed up sinuses and headaches I used to be plagued with, have a lot more energy, and haven't even caught the common cold since changing my diet. I used to catch a cold at like two or three times a year (sometimes more), but I've been completely free of any kind of illness for over two years now.

Can't recommend this kind of diet enough to anyone who isn't satisfied with their health.

 

[entremet]

You weren't doing Paleo at all. You had almost no fat, you ate a banana (not a Paleo fruit, stick to berries), had almost no food (Paleo/Primal tells you to eat until you're not hungry any more), and no vegetables (lettuce has almost no nutritional content, correct?). If you try it, you need to give it more time and do it for real. Feels great, man. Load up on those veggies!

I'm one of the ones, like others in this thread, who loves the ideas behind this way of eating but despises the marketing/branding. Eliminating grains and sugars and eating loads of veggies is a great way to eat. I don't care whether or not cavemen did it. Those who are against it, you need to stop looking at it that way. It's more of a basis for the way of eating and a hook, than a strict guideline.

Yeah. That's barely any calories. Lethargy was a given. If you're eschewing starchy tubers, which are paleo friendly, you need to up the good fats and protein for satiety.

 

[NEOPARADIGM]

Fad diets come and go but a watered down version of paleo sounds like common sense.

No, no - aren't you reading? Clearly this all pseudoscience up in here.

 

[ClassyPenguin]

No bananas? What kind of hellish diet is this?

 

[NintendoGal]

No, but I was eating under 50g of carbs a day. 0 pounds lost? C'mon, son.

Keto requires under 25g a day to really see any results, which is probably why you weren't seeing any.

 

[SeanR1221]

Keto requires under 25g a day to really see any results, which is probably why you weren't seeing any.

This post can't be serious.

 

[Turok_TTZ]

for those whining about carbs, main reason paleo is low carb is that most peeps dont even use all the carbs they consume. thats why weight gain happens when eating carbs. the only persons who need carbs are athletes and weight lifters. u dont do such strenuous activity, avoid carbs or keep carbs at a minimum.

and for the last time, dairy is banned only to those who are lactose intolerant. id still avoid it though. sometimes ye may be drinking puss from the blisters the cow gets from being over milked.

having too much saturated fat is always bad because the omega 6 to 3 ratio must be kept balanced. if u eat alot of omega 6 with out respecting the ratio , take an omega 3 pill to keep the ratio balanced. saturated fat is necessary to health. brain needs alot more than you realise.

 

[FryHole]

No bananas? What kind of hellish diet is this?

This is a good example of what we've been discussing, I think. No, bananas are not paleo. But is there anything wrong with them? If not, I can't see why they can't be incorporated into a broadly paleo-inspired diet.

I endorse this message http://www.archevore.com/panu-weblog/2010/3/28/the-only-reasonable-paleo-principle.html

 

[NintendoGal]

This post can't be serious.

According to everything I've read over in all the things compiled by the folks in r/keto, yes. Also read the calculator page:

Let's find out how much carbohydrates you need. Actually there is nothing to calculate here - on the ketogenic diet, the carbohydrates should be very low. Below 50g of carbs each day is good, better stay below 25g. The carbs should come from vegetables (10-15g), nuts and seeds (5-10g), and fruits (5-10g).

 

[SeanR1221]

So no person has ever lost weight unless they were eating under 25g of carbs. So I'd usually average 35-40, you honestly think eating 10 less carbs would make the weight fly off? We're talking two months time here.

I go back to my original point: you can't be serious.

Edit: that's basically two cups of broccoli. Oh man! If I cut out those two cups of broccoli I'd be so much thinner!!

See how silly it sounds?

 

[Piecake]

No bananas? What kind of hellish diet is this?

Eh, i eat bananas and any kind of fruit.

So no person has ever lost weight unless they were eating under 25g of carbs. So I'd usually average 35-40, you honestly think eating 10 less carbs would make the weight fly off? We're talking two months time here.

I go back to my original point: you can't be serious.

Edit: that's basically two cups of broccoli. Oh man! If I cut out those two cups of broccoli I'd be so much thinner!!

See how silly it sounds?

Yea, i lost a good amount of weight doing primal (i like fruit and dairy and eat of lot of it). Keto just seems to be for the people who want to lose weight quickly, or do not lose weight very easily so need to do something a bit more drastic

 

[NintendoGal]

So no person has ever lost weight unless they were eating under 25g of carbs. So I'd usually average 35-40, you honestly think eating 10 less carbs would make the weight fly off? We're talking two months time here.

I go back to my original point: you can't be serious.

Edit: that's basically two cups of broccoli. Oh man! If I cut out those two cups of broccoli I'd be so much thinner!!

See how silly it sounds?

You miss the point of keto. And I'm completely serious. If you don't believe me, go to reddit and see for yourself instead of attack me for giving you "dubious information" as you're seemingly treating it as.

 

[SeanR1221]

You miss the point of keto. And I'm completely serious. If you don't believe me, go to reddit and see for yourself instead of attack me for giving you "dubious information" as you're seemingly treating it as.

There you have it people. 2 cups of broccoli can prevent you from achieving weight loss.

 

[NintendoGal]

There you have it people. 2 cups of broccoli can prevent you from achieving weight loss.

I never said such a thing, now you're just being an ass.

 

[Naked Snake]

Been reading ACTUAL scientific research on this all day, instead of being an ass like some here.
i'm in.

Won't be reading or using this site for support and advice, its now full of know-it-all wiki warriors.
A couple of years ago threads like this didn't get shitted up by assholes, like the P90 and Atkins threads have shown.

My thanks to the OP, you have given me and the missus the inspiration we were looking for.

Great attitude man. Good luck.

I also got into this from GAF actually; it wasn't a dedicated thread but a lone post in a long thread (might have been by teh_pwn) few years ago, which lead me on a path of doing my own research on the subject, and it's probably been the best health-related thing I've ever done.

What I would like to add is that you should not at some point consider that your "learning" on this topic is done, and become dogmatic about what you believe is right. Research in this area is only expanding and accelerating (Checkout the annual Ancestral Health Symposium), and science keeps refining itself. So always try to keep an open mind to change your mind

 

[LiveFromKyoto]

I work with a guy who has been doing this religiously with his family for years and he is in his mid 30s and fit as hell (more than I've ever been in my life), doing p90x, kicks ass at his job (just got promoted from on-site IT to Development & Usability), etc. From talking to him about it in-depth I'm pretty sold.

1. How fast do you drop weight on it?
2. Caffeine, y/n? Coffee's kind of a big part of my social life.

 

[Ether_Snake]

I don't see what the big deal here is. It's not like the diet is about buying crystals to cure cancer. It's just a diet, and one that certainly isn't dangerous to follow. If you don't want to follow it don't.

 

[infiniteloop]

1. How fast do you drop weight on it?
2. Caffeine, y/n? Coffee's kind of a big part of my social life.

1. Really depends on you. How much you weigh, what you're eating etc.
2. I believe black coffee is fine, but don't drink it myself. Here's a good article on it: http://whole9life.com/2011/01/the-coffee-manifesto/

 

[bdouble]

I work with a guy who has been doing this religiously with his family for years and he is in his mid 30s and fit as hell (more than I've ever been in my life), doing p90x, kicks ass at his job (just got promoted from on-site IT to Development & Usability), etc. From talking to him about it in-depth I'm pretty sold.

1. How fast do you drop weight on it?
2. Caffeine, y/n? Coffee's kind of a big part of my social life.

Never really can tell. Depends on a lot of things.

As for coffee you should check out bulletproofcoffee principles. Lots of problems can happens wirh coffee and mold and toxins on 90% of it.

 

[Piecake]

I work with a guy who has been doing this religiously with his family for years and he is in his mid 30s and fit as hell (more than I've ever been in my life), doing p90x, kicks ass at his job (just got promoted from on-site IT to Development & Usability), etc. From talking to him about it in-depth I'm pretty sold.

1. How fast do you drop weight on it?
2. Caffeine, y/n? Coffee's kind of a big part of my social life.

You should see results in around a month

So long as you dont go into super withdrawl symptoms when you dont have it I think its fine. Others might disagree

 

[plagiarize]

I don't see what the big deal here is. It's not like the diet is about buying crystals to cure cancer. It's just a diet, and one that certainly isn't dangerous to follow. If you don't want to follow it don't.

can't argue with that. I don't even argue that paleo works, because it clearly does.

But the supposed scientific basis of it is at best woefully over simplified, and more accurately bunk. It works, but not because it's what we ate when we were still cavemen. All those generations of people who ate dairy despite being lactose intolerant have helped us mostly breed out lactose intolerance in western populations (thought not places like China where dairy isn't as common).

http://darwinstudents.blogspot.com/2009/02/evolution-of-lactose-tolerance.html

I admit the mutation may have occurred before we started eating dairy, but it doesn't really change how I feel. Lactose tolerant populations were more successful than ones that remained lactose intolerant, so I'm taking it as a good thing.

I'm not going to throw away all their work and not eat dairy. We didn't stop evolving 10,000 years ago... even if our diets have become overly processed and unhealthy in the last 100 years. That jump from caveman to fat guy with a soda misses many many generations wherein people weren't all fat, but regularly ate grain and dairy. Salt and fat is why that last guy is fat. Fast food is why. Sugar in loads of stuff it doesn't need to be in is why. Frozen meals is why. All that cheap shit they fill with taste enhancers and fat and salt and sugar to make it still taste good despite being cheap as chips is why.

Enjoy your paleo diet and all the health benefits you are getting from it and feel free to encourage others to try it out, but don't tell me we haven't evolved to eat dairy and grain, because yeah, many of us have.

 

[Guileless]

I lost 70 lbs on it. Reading teh_pawn's posts changed my life. Thanks again.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

I lost 70 lbs on it. Reading teh_pawn's posts changed my life. Thanks again.

Same. teh_pwn's posts in the weight loss thread taught me a lot.

 

[ClassyPenguin]

I don't see what the big deal here is. It's not like the diet is about buying crystals to cure cancer. It's just a diet, and one that certainly isn't dangerous to follow. If you don't want to follow it don't.

It does help establish the naturalistic fallacy which leads to believing in such quackery.

 

[Decado]

bu...bu...bu...but...beer!

 

[FryHole]

@plagiarize - I actually think the grains & dairy thing is one of the more interesting aspects of paleo. While I wouldn't take everything this chap says at his word (what with having books and supplements to sell), this is an interesting little introduction to paleopathology


http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/paleolithic-diet/books-that-changed-my-life/

I learned that the health devolution that took place due to dietary changes incurred as a result of man’s turn to agriculture were so substantive that at a glance an anthropologist could identify skeletal remains as being those of a agriculturalist or a pre-agriculturalist. How? Because as compared to agriculturalists, pre-agriculturalists had greater stature, stronger bones, better teeth, fewer signs of infection, less evidence of malnutrition and/or vitamin deficiencies

There's also this, by Jared Diamond, who is definitely no fool.

http://discovermagazine.com/1987/ma...in-the-history-of-the-human-race#.UOiaLJxFDng

 

[ClassyPenguin]

Civilization started due to farming which lead to specialization. Saying it's devolutionary is utter nonsense.

Here's where science most forcefully speaks back. First, ancient hunter-gatherer groups adapted to local environments that were regionally and seasonally variable — for instance, coastal or inland, game-saturated or grain-abundant (eating grains was not necessarily incompatible with hunter-gatherer living). Second, genes were not in control. People learned what worked in local context for survival and reproduction, and surely, just as in other primates, cultural traditions began to play a role in who ate what.

In short, there was no single hunter-gatherer foraging strategy, and genes no more "designed" our eating behavior than they designed our language or our ways of relating between the genders.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/13.7/2011/10/27/141666659/the-paleo-diet-not-the-way-to-a-healthy-future

 

[IceCold]

I don't see what the big deal here is. It's not like the diet is about buying crystals to cure cancer. It's just a diet, and one that certainly isn't dangerous to follow. If you don't want to follow it don't.

Because people get anal when you tell them that what they thought was healthy actually isn't and vice versa. Especially if you are a vegetarian. This is basically an anti-vegetarian life style.

Also gaf gonna gaf.

 

[FryHole]

Civilization started due to farming which lead to specialization. Saying it's devolutionary is utter nonsense.

I wouldn't get hung up on the word devolution. On the assumption this is accurate - and I haven't read the papers he's referring to - I would say "as compared to agriculturalists, pre-agriculturalists had greater stature, stronger bones, better teeth, fewer signs of infection, less evidence of malnutrition and/or vitamin deficiencies" is hardly a step forward for the agriculturists. I can easily see how a reliable, easily stored source of calories could fuel population growth and the rise of civilisation even if it had detrimental health effects on individuals.

 

[ClassyPenguin]

I wouldn't get hung up on the word devolution. On the assumption this is accurate - and I haven't read the papers he's referring to - I would say "as compared to agriculturalists, pre-agriculturalists had greater stature, stronger bones, better teeth, fewer signs of infection, less evidence of malnutrition and/or vitamin deficiencies" is hardly a step forward for the agriculturists. I can easily see how a reliable, easily stored source of calories could fuel population growth and the rise of civilisation even if it had detrimental health effects on individuals.

True.

So I started to read again my Bio-Anthro books and much of the paleo diet is based on the papers by Eaton since the 1970's. Though they do stress much of the benefits of the diet through the variety of food (instead of a over-reliance on "white breads" favored by Americans and corn based foods plus our sedentary life), they also go into the variance of culture and diets.

 

[Cow Mengde]

Where's wooly mammoth on that menu?

 

[Anticitizen One]

Gonna start this diet tomorrow. My expectation is to look like Conan The Barbarian by the end of the month.

 

[teh_pwn]

I lost 70 lbs on it. Reading teh_pawn's posts changed my life. Thanks again.

No problem. I mostly just post other people's work.

I'm curious..which diet did you have success with? I went from low carb to paleo to low reward. I view both low carb and paleo as possible subsets of low reward. In other words, Atkins with plain steak is low reward, but Atkins with endulge candy and cheese/pepperoni melts are not.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

bu...bu...bu...but...beer!

You don't have to be perfect!

I still enjoy beer once or twice a week.

 

[NomarTyme]

You don't have to be perfect!

I still enjoy beer once or twice a week.

There is also glutten free beer!

 

[plagiarize]

@plagiarize - I actually think the grains & dairy thing is one of the more interesting aspects of paleo. While I wouldn't take everything this chap says at his word (what with having books and supplements to sell), this is an interesting little introduction to paleopathology


http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/paleolithic-diet/books-that-changed-my-life/




There's also this, by Jared Diamond, who is definitely no fool.

http://discovermagazine.com/1987/ma...in-the-history-of-the-human-race#.UOiaLJxFDng

not saying he's a fool, just pointing out that from an evolutionary perspective not being lactose intolerant factually proved to be an advantage, or it wouldn't have become dominant in the cultures that developed it who had easy access to dairy. even if we weren't 'fitter' in a 'health and fitness' reading of the word, we were 'fitter' in a 'survival of the fittest' sense of the word.

and it makes sense that we wouldn't be as trim if we didn't have to work as hard to catch our food, even ignoring diet... yes?

True.

So I started to read again my Bio-Anthro books and much of the paleo diet is based on the papers by Eaton since the 1970's. Though they do stress much of the benefits of the diet through the variety of food (instead of a over-reliance on "white breads" favored by Americans and corn based foods plus our sedentary life), they also go into the variance of culture and diets.

right. I mean, I'm not arguing against the benefit of the diet, just the pop-sci nonsense people use to explain why it works. It does work, but not because we haven't evolved in the last 10,000 years, because clearly we have.

 

[King Of Fuh]

What's the deal with potatoes?

I've seen a few recipes on here involving sweet potatoes, but nothing involving plain old potatoes. Are they that vastly different?

The diet sounds like a mix of foods I would generally enjoy, but I love my starchy potato. Do potatoes still conform to this diet in one form or another?

 

[DR2K]

Tried it, hated it, expensive as shit too. It works though. This is definitely not a poor mans diet especially if you're aiming to do it 100% of the time.

 

[Gilby]

Tried it, hated it, expensive as shit too. It works though. This is definitely not a poor mans diet especially if you're aiming to do it 100% of the time.

Eggs. Tuna.

Been a poor art student eating almost no grains for the past 4-5 years.

 

[FryHole]

not saying he's a fool, just pointing out that from an evolutionary perspective not being lactose intolerant factually proved to be an advantage, or it wouldn't have become dominant in the cultures that developed it who had easy access to dairy. even if we weren't 'fitter' in a 'health and fitness' reading of the word, we were 'fitter' in a 'survival of the fittest' sense of the word.

and it makes sense that we wouldn't be as trim if we didn't have to work as hard to catch our food, even ignoring diet... yes?

I suppose that's the ultimate point, the tension between the health of the individual over a lifetime, and the - possibly short term - selective advantage agriculture gave. Adopting a damaging but abundant food source, provided the ill effects are delayed long enough for successful reproduction, will be favoured (not necessarily at the genetic level, it could be just be cultural, almost a form of group selection).

A paleo argument then might be that if you're aiming for individual health, and given the choice (as we are lucky enough to have in the western world), a focus on the pre-agriculture food sources is sensible, as they does not appear to come with so much baggage, and are less likely to cause you mischief. It's speculative, but not unreasonable.

 

[lupinko]

I work with a guy who has been doing this religiously with his family for years and he is in his mid 30s and fit as hell (more than I've ever been in my life), doing p90x, kicks ass at his job (just got promoted from on-site IT to Development & Usability), etc. From talking to him about it in-depth I'm pretty sold.

1. How fast do you drop weight on it?
2. Caffeine, y/n? Coffee's kind of a big part of my social life.

If you want caffeine drink green tea instead of coffee, does wonders and is way more healthier than coffee or energy drinks like red bull.

Also green tea is a good diuretic to rid away that water weight.

 

[FryHole]

What's the deal with potatoes?

I've seen a few recipes on here involving sweet potatoes, but nothing involving plain old potatoes. Are they that vastly different?

The diet sounds like a mix of foods I would generally enjoy, but I love my starchy potato. Do potatoes still conform to this diet in one form or another?

Potato plant is a nightshade, related to tomatoes and peppers and not so much to the other tubers. It can apparently cause some people some issues - something to do with chemicals called glycoalkaloids. I'm sure they're fine for most people.

 

[OttomanScribe]

I get a little sad every time I hear someone advocate this diet. Why must people surround diets with so much pseudo scientific babble?