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[Deleted member 17706]

Both diets endorse low carbs do they not? The little difference are not important to me.

You can stick to the paleo diet while being relatively high-carb (100g or more).

Of course, considering most Americans probably consume over 300g of carbs per day quite easily, most paleo eaters will probably consuming quite a bit less than that.

 

[Dash27]

Yes. They had a healthier metabolism and are healthier because added sugar and the removal of fibre is only a recent phenomenon. The same thing applies to Western diets. People in the west haven't been obese since time immemorial. In the 1700s Europeans were eating half their daily calories just from bread yet there was no problem with weight or heart disease or metabolic syndrome. Mark Sission doesn't have an Asian paradox to deal with he has an entire world paradox to refute, and he can't.

I'm not going to argue about sugar. I'm not sure where you're getting the fiber angle from or the diets of 1700's Europeans though.

The case against grains seems to have merit to me. At least the highly processed and refined cereals and breads. Oatmeal I'm not sold on being bad for me yet.

 

[Dash27]

Both diets endorse low carbs do they not? The little difference are not important to me.

I see it as more of a function of the foods you eat on paleo not really that it's deliberately low carb. It's just hard to eat what we would consider a lot of carbs when it's coming from broccoli and asparagus. There are definitely low carb zealots though who follow paleo.

Here is a very recent article about low carb and paleo:

http://robbwolf.com/2012/12/19/carb-paleo-thoughts-part-1/

Slowly I realized, both by experimentation and by really looking at the literature: CALORIES MATTERED MORE THAN CARBS FOR BODY-COMP.

I have to say this was a pretty big shake-up for me. I’d assumed one could eat as much fat as one desired and STILL get leaner. As I mentioned above, when I first started eating LC, or more specifically, cyclic low carb (CLC) I was leaner than ever in my life. I know based on blood work and fat deposition that I had insulin resistance while vegan, and CLC helped with this immensely, but it was my new-found energy and activity level that drove my leanness, not an inability to store fat in the absence of significant insulin. I think this is one of the most damaging messages that comes out of the LC camp to this day, I was duped by this, so I’m not going to do what a lot of other recovered LC writers do and make folks out to be idiots for still believing this…but, it is time to face facts. In every damn study it is clear that for fat loss we’d like adequate protein, and a calorie restriction scenario. LC is fantastic for this in that one typically feels satisfied on high protein, moderate fat, loads of veggies. If one is insulin resistant, this approach can be nothing short of miraculous. HOWEVER! If one manages to cram enough cheese, olive oil and grass-fed butter down the pie-hole, this is in fact, a “mass gain” diet.

 

[GatorBait]

Just a question: if this diet is so fantastic, why hasn't every pro athlete under the sun switched?
I mean, madness!! Imagine the landslide when they do and find out they had an easy 15% increase in fitness right under their nose the whole time. Such sad fools ;-)

Actually, I would imagine a lot of athletes' diets look similar to a paleo diet. With a paleo diet, you increase the amount of carbohydrates you consume if you are more active. If you removed oatmeal from the "bodybuilders" diet, it would look pretty similar to a paleo diet.

Both diets endorse low carbs do they not? The little difference are not important to me.

Paleo endorses low carbs only if you are trying to lose weight, and even then, you can still have a fairly moderate amount of carbs every single day unless you want to go really gung-ho with cutting them out. You could still have like 30% or so of your calories coming from carbohydrates and still be following a paleo diet.

Here is a very recent article about low carb and paleo:

http://robbwolf.com/2012/12/19/carb-paleo-thoughts-part-1/

Nice to see a paleo advocate actually advertise that calories-in vs. calories-out does matter. Those arguing otherwise reduce the credibility of paleo diets.

 

[ZackieChan]

Just a question: if this diet is so fantastic, why hasn't every pro athlete under the sun switched?
I mean, madness!! Imagine the landslide when they do and find out they had an easy 15% increase in fitness right under their nose the whole time. Such sad fools ;-)

This is a limited answer, I know, but check out the training video for the latest season of Spartacus, or any season of The Ultimate Fighter. They do what looks like a Paleo diet when they are losing fat and prepping for a fight.

 

[IceCold]

Aren't carbs needed to rebuild muscles? Usually you'll see your strength drop in all your lifts when doing a low carb diet. Also the energy in carbs is used faster iirc which is why a lot of athletes will eat carb heavy meals, like pasta, before a game.

 

[ch0mp]

Aren't carbs needed it rebuild muscles? Usually you'll see your strength drop in all your lifts when doing a low carb diet. Also the energy in carbs is used faster iirc which is why a lot of athletes will eat carb heavy meals, like pasta, before a game.

Yes. As mentioned earlier, the more active you are the more carbs you should be consuming. There is also plenty of non wheat/grain based carb sources.

 

[cryptic]

Aren't carbs needed it rebuild muscles? Usually you'll see your strength drop in all your lifts when doing a low carb diet. Also the energy in carbs is used faster iirc which is why a lot of athletes will eat carb heavy meals, like pasta, before a game.

Yes, I found out the hard way through developing what seems like hypothyroidism through paleo/primal/PHD, to Ray Peat where I feel the best.

 

[SeanR1221]

You can stick to the paleo diet while being relatively high-carb (100g or more).

Of course, considering most Americans probably consume over 300g of carbs per day quite easily, most paleo eaters will probably consuming quite a bit less than that.

Damn, do you really think it's 300G a day? I just cant even imagine eating that much.

 

[dralla]

Damn, do you really think it's 300G a day? I just cant even imagine eating that much.

Yea, easily, mostly due to soda.

 

[SeanR1221]

Wow, a bottle of Coke has 65G of carbs AND 65G of sugar. I had no idea. Insane. Basically poison for the body.

 

[ch0mp]

65 carbs all from sugar.

 

[shira]

Can't comment on "more efficient workouts" but the rest of those ring true for me.

Keep on LOLing, though!

Please. Your teeth are whiter? Or are you drinking less coffee.

 

[infiniteloop]

Damn, do you really think it's 300G a day? I just cant even imagine eating that much.

That's the recommended daily allowance.

 

[Xeke]

Strictly eliminating specific types of foods is how people can moderate.

If you surround me with Brooklyn style pepperoni pizza and similar foods, I will overeat.

There are controlled studies on rats with junk food vs rat chow and rats will ignore their chow and traverse distances with electrical shock to get to the junk food. Put the junk food next to them when sleeping and they will periodically wake up and eat the stuff. Over time they get fat. Moderating on modern processed food is like trying to moderate on meth.

It's called self control. Don't overeat. Done.

 

[entremet]

It's called self control. Don't overeat. Done.

I think you overestimate human willpower. We're opportunistic eaters.

 

[teh_pwn]

It's called self control. Don't overeat. Done.

It is not that simple.

I value you my health more than I do what food I crave. For me, removing foods that cause overeating is fundamentally a higher quality of life than living in a world where I'm constantly craving food. The cravings only go away after days of abstaining from them and removing all of them from my apartment.

 

[entremet]

It is not that simple.

I value you my health more than I do what food I crave. For me, removing foods that cause overeating is fundamentally a higher quality of life than living in a world where I'm constantly craving food. The cravings only go away after days of abstaining from them and removing all of them from my apartment.

I remember losing 15 pounds when I moved to an apartment by myself, without any major changes. No roommates, no garbage food around.

 

[Dre]

Yes. They had a healthier metabolism and are healthier because added sugar and the removal of fibre is only a recent phenomenon. The same thing applies to Western diets. People in the west haven't been obese since time immemorial. In the 1700s Europeans were eating half their daily calories just from bread yet there was no problem with weight or heart disease or metabolic syndrome. Mark Sission doesn't have an Asian paradox to deal with he has an entire world paradox to refute, and he can't.

In the 1700s people were also less sedentary than today and had an increased need for carbs since meat, fish or eggs were either scarce or too expensive. Their bread-heavy diet didn't have the same extreme impact on their insulin levels in their blood (which promotes weight gain and metabolic syndrome) like it would have on today's average Joe driving his SUV to get to his desk job.

But still, obesity problems weren't unknown to that time either, albeit not as widespread as today they started to arise in the 1700s anyway and were subject to early medical monographs and studies (cf. Thomas Short 1727 or Giovanni Morgagni 1760s).

 

[ClassyPenguin]

It is not that simple.

I value you my health more than I do what food I crave. For me, removing foods that cause overeating is fundamentally a higher quality of life than living in a world where I'm constantly craving food. The cravings only go away after days of abstaining from them and removing all of them from my apartment.

It's actually very psychologically stressing to deny food when it's available (Polivy and Herman 2006). So it's better to avoid even being around fast food or unhealthy foods in general.
It's only in like the past third of a century where we have huge food availability, so it's basically like treating an alcoholic.

 

[teh_pwn]

It's actually very psychologically stressing to deny food when it's available. So it's better to avoid even being around fast foods or unhealthy foods.

Yep. Some people don't get it because they don't have that problem. To me, having a bunch of pizzas in the fridge while trying to stay fit would be like trying to work with my desktop background being a really hot, nude woman.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Please. Your teeth are whiter? Or are you drinking less coffee.

"Better teeth" means "whiter teeth" to you? Interesting.

 

[SeanR1221]

Better teeth should definitely be true. Less sugar = less cavities. Obvious, no?

 

[mr stroke]

Paleo diet is just too strict for me.

I enjoy shitty food and booze too much. I eat clean during the week, eat shit all weekend, drink like a fish, and exersize like a beast. I would much rather run a couple extra miles or do 20 extra power cleans then have to eat Paleo strict all the time(to stay lean), life is too short not to enjoy booze, pizza, and ice cream.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Paleo diet is just too strict for me.

I enjoy shitty food and booze too much. I eat clean during the week, eat shit all weekend, drink like a fish, and exersize like a beast. I would much rather run a couple extra miles or do 20 extra power cleans then have to eat Paleo strict all the time(to stay lean), life is too short not to enjoy booze, pizza, and ice cream.

What does "eat clean" mean to you? That's what paleo is all about. If you're already doing it five days a week, that's much better than what most people do.

 

[Arksy]

In the 1700s people were also less sedentary than today and had an increased need for carbs since meat, fish or eggs were either scarce or too expensive. Their bread-heavy diet didn't have the same extreme impact on their insulin levels in their blood (which promotes weight gain and metabolic syndrome) like it would have on today's average Joe driving his SUV to get to his desk job.

But still, obesity problems weren't unknown to that time either, albeit not as widespread as today they started to arise in the 1700s anyway and were subject to early medical monographs and studies (cf. Thomas Short 1727 or Giovanni Morgagni 1760s).

Obesity did exist, especially in monarchies and the like that had access to sugar and abundance. The question of sedentary lifestyles I think is a bit of a wash. Sure the fact that people are more sedentary today doesn't help, but doesn't totally account for the epidemic. Especially in countries that are only starting to industrialise that don't have sedentary populations and are still suffering from the epidemic. (China, Malaysia)

 

[entremet]

Paleo diet is just too strict for me.

I enjoy shitty food and booze too much. I eat clean during the week, eat shit all weekend, drink like a fish, and exersize like a beast. I would much rather run a couple extra miles or do 20 extra power cleans then have to eat Paleo strict all the time(to stay lean), life is too short not to enjoy booze, pizza, and ice cream.

I would say you're ahead of the game. You're basically doing a cheat weekend.

 

[makingmusic476]

Question about low carb diets in general:

I usually see ratios of something like 65:25:10::fatrotein:carb.

This whole time I assumed the ratio was in grams, but it just hit me that it's probably in calories. Is it possible to have too much fat? Because going overboard on the fat and not getting enough protein could explain why I often feel kinda crappy on these diets. I would typically double my fat intake vs protein in grams, which would be over 4x my protein intake in calories.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Pretty sure it's in calories, usually.

200g of fat and 50g of protein, for example, might not be the best idea.

 

[Arksy]

Question about low carb diets in general:

I usually see ratios of something like 65:25:10::fatrotein:carb.

This whole time I assumed the ratio was in grams, but it just hit me that it's probably in calories. Is it possible to have too much fat? Because going overboard on the fat and not getting enough protein could explain why I often feel kinda crappy on these diets. I would typically double my fat intake vs protein in grams, which would be over 4x my protein intake in calories.

You can go overboard with any macronutrient.

 

[maxxpower]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm assuming you can't eat eggs on the paleo diet correct? I never heard of any cavemen owning chicken.

Paleo diet is just too strict for me.

I enjoy shitty food and booze too much. I eat clean during the week, eat shit all weekend, drink like a fish, and exersize like a beast. I would much rather run a couple extra miles or do 20 extra power cleans then have to eat Paleo strict all the time(to stay lean), life is too short not to enjoy booze, pizza, and ice cream.

Pretty much, I eat really well all seven days of the week but every Friday night I'll eat either a pizza and some chips or some nachos and then go out with my friends and have maybe like three beers. I don't gain a pound and my abs still show and the cheat meal helps me keep my sanity.

 

[BruceLeeRoy]

I did Paleo for about 2 months this last summer and I liked it a lot. Like OP mentions it feels very similar energy wise to low carb. It is a pain in the ass to keep up with though.

 

[ch0mp]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm assuming you can't eat eggs on the paleo diet correct? I never heard of any cavemen owning chicken.

Eggs would be included in the 'gatherer' part of paleo.

 

[lorebringer]

I'm trying a diet that's similar to paleo/primal in that I'm cutting out grains and processed sugar completely and trying to keep carbohydrate and dairy intake low. I'm more interested in just eating real food then I am in following a strict set of rules on what to eat which is why I say similar. I'm fairly overweight at the moment but have lost 6 pounds in the first week (which I assume is mostly water weight?), so fingers crossed it keeps up. Thanks to the OP for posting, I was planning on losing weight anyway but this approach seems like one that I can be happy with. I love me some meat/fish/eggs/vegetables, so having lots of meat and eggs in particular will help me get over my lust for bread.

Question about the "low carb flu" people talk about. For the last day or so I've been feeling very tired and sluggish, physically and mentally. I was feeling very shaky earlier so gave in and had a can of coke with my lunch and almost immediately picked up a bit, so I assume this is just standard carbohydrate/sugar withdrawal. With that in mind I'm going to try to really kick it. Does anyone have any insight into how long it ordinarily lasts and whether there's anything I can do to ease the effect without resorting to prolonging it via carb/sugar consumption?

Also, plate of tomatoes, eggs and cucumbers is awesome.

 

[Dash27]

They say one to two weeks for that low carb flu. If you are losing weight you're eating at a deficit too so that factors in. I got the cravings for a sugary drink too, they've mostly gone away now. Sometimes I'll have a little bit of grape juice, that seems to do the trick.

Make sure you're getting enough fat too. Nuts, seeds, avocado, animal fats, olives. Olive oil, coconut oil, butter for cooking.

 

[BruceLeeRoy]

Another thing about Paleo is you don't really drop pounds like you do with a no carb diet. If you go in expecting that you will be disappointed. The weight comes off but not at the radical speed it can with a atkins variation.

 

[lorebringer]

Another thing about Paleo is you don't really drop pounds like you do with a no carb diet. If you go in expecting that you will be disappointed. The weight comes off but not at the radical speed it can with a atkins variation.

Nah I don't want to lose weight super fast or anything, I just want to be able to get to a healthy weight at some point while eating stuff I actually want to eat. I'm trying to approach it as an overall change in how I eat rather than a temporary thing.

 

[bdouble]

Another thing about Paleo is you don't really drop pounds like you do with a no carb diet. If you go in expecting that you will be disappointed. The weight comes off but not at the radical speed it can with a atkins variation.

Usually most weight loss paleo diets would say that you cut out fruits and limit nuts to really loosing weight fast. Also this includes being strict in no dairy, grains or legumes.

Make sure you're getting enough fat too. Nuts, seeds, avocado, animal fats, olives. Olive oil, coconut oil, butter for cooking.

Don't cook with olive oil. A little bit of heating zaps its nutrition. For cookin it comes down to cocounut oil for majority of things just have to watch temps. 350 degrees in the oven and medium to medium high for grill and stove top.

For anything hotter you can use ghee (clarified butter) bacon grease, beef tallow ect ect.

Question about low carb diets in general:

I usually see ratios of something like 65:25:10::fatrotein:carb.

This whole time I assumed the ratio was in grams, but it just hit me that it's probably in calories. Is it possible to have too much fat? Because going overboard on the fat and not getting enough protein could explain why I often feel kinda crappy on these diets. I would typically double my fat intake vs protein in grams, which would be over 4x my protein intake in calories.

That seems high to me from what I've read and yes its calories. Fat is highest calorie density. Thats a bit of an extreme diet more like http://www.bulletproofexec.com/. Robb Wolf breaks it down.

"For optimization I’d LOVE to throw out a magic macronutrient ratio that guarantees the best of all worlds to all people, be it 40-30-30 (carbs, protein, fat) or 60-20-20 (fat, protein, carbs) as two popular examples. As far as offering guidelines to get people going, these parameters are fine. Creating solid scientific arguments based on static macronutrient ratios…I can’t do it. Use these as a tool, beware Magic Macros."

Comes down to most other things paleo. You have to experiment a little and see how your body responds.

 

[FryHole]

Question about the "low carb flu" people talk about. For the last day or so I've been feeling very tired and sluggish, physically and mentally. I was feeling very shaky earlier so gave in and had a can of coke with my lunch and almost immediately picked up a bit, so I assume this is just standard carbohydrate/sugar withdrawal. With that in mind I'm going to try to really kick it. Does anyone have any insight into how long it ordinarily lasts and whether there's anything I can do to ease the effect without resorting to prolonging it via carb/sugar consumption?

Lorebringer, you might find this helpful

http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/...cks-for-starting-or-restarting-low-carb-pt-i/

 

[Sullen]

Are there any real alternatives in this style of eating to replace eggs for breakfast? I really, really hate eggs in all of their variations.

 

[pxleyes]

Are there any real alternatives in this style of eating to replace eggs for breakfast? I really, really hate eggs in all of their variations.

Ham, bacon, fruit, sausage, and I still consume dairy and the occasional oats.

 

[kevo_huevo]

couple of sugar questions:

is truvia and/or splenda ok for sugar substitutes (if i absolutely need them i.e. for baking or with a coffee)

the sugar content in a naked juice bottle says the sugar only comes from the fruits used in the smoothie. thats BS right?

 

[Arksy]

couple of sugar questions:

is truvia and/or splenda ok for sugar substitutes (if i absolutely need them i.e. for baking or with a coffee)

the sugar content in a naked juice bottle says the sugar only comes from the fruits used in the smoothie. thats BS right?

I'm not sure it's BS, but it's not relevant. Sugar content matters. The fact that it was in the fruit to begin with isn't really helpful because they've still taken out the fiber.

As for artificial sweeteners, there is no data on their toxicity at the moment so as far as we know they are safe. What we don't know is if they induce an insulin response.

 

[bdouble]

couple of sugar questions:

is truvia and/or splenda ok for sugar substitutes (if i absolutely need them i.e. for baking or with a coffee)

the sugar content in a naked juice bottle says the sugar only comes from the fruits used in the smoothie. thats BS right?

Do not do artificial. Worse than sugar. If you must sweten there are other things. My gf just got into baking and making ice cream. To sweeten those and coffee you could use raw honey, coconut nectar, or pure maple syrup.

 

[ClassyPenguin]

Do not do artificial. Worse than sugar.

Sources on this?

 

[bdouble]

Sources on this?

robbwolf.com/2012/04/20/additive-effect-artificial-intelligent/

All are addictive because of the sweetness. Artificial ones whole no calories usually are even sweeter than real sugar. Rob wolf doesnt even think you should have the ones i listed.

 

[ClassyPenguin]

So no credible source then?
Not all are the same and not all trigger an insulin spike (acesulfame-K does) or else my dad, who suffers from diabetes, would be dead already.
Psychologically, there has been some studies that do link the use of artificial sweeteners to the normal reaction of craving more sweets and lead to overeating but nothing that says it is worse than sugar.

 

[Dash27]

Has anyone watched the Perfect Human Diet? I hadn't heard of it but a friend mentioned it to me and I'm going to try and stream it.

http://youtu.be/FTqVclA-nPc

 

[infiniteloop]

Has anyone watched the Perfect Human Diet? I hadn't heard of it but a friend mentioned it to me and I'm going to try and stream it.

http://youtu.be/FTqVclA-nPc

Saw it on iTunes the other day, will give it a watch.

 

[dralla]

couple of sugar questions:

is truvia and/or splenda ok for sugar substitutes (if i absolutely need them i.e. for baking or with a coffee)

the sugar content in a naked juice bottle says the sugar only comes from the fruits used in the smoothie. thats BS right?

stevia, erythritol and xlitol are good sugar subsistutes, truvia is erythritol with a little stevia mixed in. Artificial sweeteners in small amounts are OK by me too. It's really simple, if you feel like using any of these makes you crave sweets or cause you to over eat, stop using them. I've never had a problem personally