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Paris Assistant Police Chief and wife stabbed to death by ISIS linked terrorist

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zbarron

Member

I think at some point we'll have to arrest people who sympathize with terrorist groups.
I know it's thought crime but some thoughts can be criminal, what's so hard about not supporting a murderous organization?
Not to single you out but:
The definition of murder vs killing is dependent on where your sympathies lie. Most militaries kill at least some civilians. They are civilian casualties but depending on what side of that war you are on it can be seen as murder. I know ISIS is different in that they purposefully target non combatants but this is a really dangerous precedent to set.

I'm fully against thought crimes as you admit they are. It seems like this discussion isn't that far away from suggesting internment camps to keep us safe. That was a horrible idea 74 years ago and it's a horrible idea now. In more recent fuck ups I don't want our fears to allow us to give our rights away like we did with the patriot act.

Human rights do not change when the world is scary and resume when it is safe again.
 

Wvrs

Member
Yes. The situation in middle east is getting worse and the population of muslims are growing in Europe in USA. Add to this the rising tensions between them and the rest of citizens in western countries and the growing radicalization of muslim youth and those kinds of tragedies will only become more common as times goes by.

Which makes me happy that current polish goverment is fiercely againt taking any muslim migrants and we're too poor for any of them to want to move here anyway. It's a bit egoistical on my part, but it's hard to deny it.

I don't blame you to be honest; it's not the people I have trouble with, it's the religion many of them subscribe too. I live in the UK in a city with a large Muslim population; the other day I got in a taxi and the driver was ranting to me for ages about how disrespectful it was for me to be eating in front of a Muslim (I had a sandwich on the way to work) during Ramadan. Proceeded to be lectured on Allah, how he knew in his heart everything about Islam was the truth, that he wanted Sharia Law, etc, it was pretty scary how fervently he believed in what he was saying. Eventually just got out early and left the situation.

They rarely integrate, they keep to themselves, and for some reason seem to dislike the culture of the place to which they decided to move. It's a problem that's been ignored for years, and we're all paying the price now.
 

I'm fully against thought crimes as you admit they are. It seems like this discussion isn't that far away from suggesting internment camps to keep us safe. That was a horrible idea 74 years ago and it's a horrible idea now. In more recent fuck ups I don't want our fears to allow us to give our rights away like we did with the patriot act.

Human rights do not change when the world is scary and resume when it is safe again.
I fully agree but the situation is not 1 to 1 comparable to the situation of Japanese Americans citizen:

There was no random attack by people of Japanese ancestry in the is not 100 of thousands of Japanese flooding in containing sleeper agents.
 
There was no random attack by people of Japanese ancestry in the is not 100 of thousands of Japanese flooding in containing sleeper agents.

There was one very influential incident where a Japanese pilot crashlanded on a small island near Hawaii after the Pearl Harbor attack and three Americans of Japanese descent chose to help him and take hostages. They were not sleeper agents and their willingness to turn on the US was troubling.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niihau_incident
 
Antartica will gladly take him. ^_^

In all seriousness, I wasn't thinking of the difficulties when I posted. It certainly is a tough decision. Seems that the best options we have are to keep such people in jail longer, hope that a sentence such as the one this guy received is enough to rehabilitiate them or kill them.

Oh, no argument from me - the penguins are welcome to them. :)

I work on some of these policy issues... it's a big Gordian knot and having people dying while we tackle it is not the most rewarding thing at the moment.
 
I don't blame you to be honest; it's not the people I have trouble with, it's the religion many of them subscribe too. I live in the UK in a city with a large Muslim population; the other day I got in a taxi and the driver was ranting to me for ages about how disrespectful it was for me to be eating in front of a Muslim (I had a sandwich on the way to work) during Ramadan. Proceeded to be lectured on Allah, how he knew in his heart everything about Islam was the truth, that he wanted Sharia Law, etc, it was pretty scary how fervently he believed in what he was saying. Eventually just got out early and left the situation.

They rarely integrate, they keep to themselves, and for some reason seem to dislike the culture of the place to which they decided to move. It's a problem that's been ignored for years, and we're all paying the price now.

I don't believe you.
 

jaekeem

Member

Not to single you out but:
The definition of murder vs killing is dependent on where your sympathies lie. Most militaries kill at least some civilians. They are civilian casualties but depending on what side of that war you are on it can be seen as murder. I know ISIS is different in that they purposefully target non combatants but this is a really dangerous precedent to set.

I'm fully against thought crimes as you admit they are. It seems like this discussion isn't that far away from suggesting internment camps to keep us safe. That was a horrible idea 74 years ago and it's a horrible idea now. In more recent fuck ups I don't want our fears to allow us to give our rights away like we did with the patriot act.

Human rights do not change when the world is scary and resume when it is safe again.

Internment camps for mass groups of people simply for being from a country/region and thought crimes are things that nobody wants.

But somebody that was tried and convicted for recruiting and plotting with a terrorist group that wants the demise of all western civilization? I'm not saying lock them up forever, but we need to try and rehabilitate these people, and that probably takes much longer than three years.

In my head I feel like we could isolate people convicted on such crimes into secure environments and let moderate islamic scholars show them the error of their ways, whilst simultaneously showing them the wonders, liberties, and beauties of western civilization; things to be celebrated rather than attacked. But maybe I'm just a stupid idealist that is simplifying the situation.

For sure I believe that we cannot release people still holding these kind of abhorrent views and WILLING and PROVEN to act upon them in violent fashion/plotting into the civilization population. Hell no.
 
I do.

I used to run a store in a very culturally diverse area, and I knew people just like that of both Muslim and Christian faiths.

It's one thing to spread he good word, it's quiet another to berate an unbeliever.

here's why I think it's not true, going by his anecdote the taxi driver would be a conservative Muslim, correct?!

I grew up in the Middle East in very Muslim areas and if there's one thing I've noticed is conservatives do this to other Muslims who are not as "devout" as they are, now this happens frequently in a Muslim country..... Conservative Muslims know enough that when they are in a foreign non-Muslim country not to go to non-Muslims and do exactly what the poster I was originally addressing.... If anything his story, just lines up with "they are tying to spread, sharia guys"

Edit:

Where do you stay that Muslim people come and campaign for sharia law?
 

Wvrs

Member
It's one thing to spread he good word, it's quiet another to berate an unbeliever.

here's why I think it's not true, going by his anecdote the taxi driver would be a conservative Muslim, correct?!

I grew up in the Middle East in very Muslim areas and if there's one thing I've noticed is conservatives do this to other Muslims who are not as "devout" as they are, now this happens frequently in a Muslim country..... Conservative Muslims know enough that when they are in a foreign non-Muslim country not to go to non-Muslims and do exactly what the poster I was originally addressing.... If anything his story, just lines up with "they are tying to spread, sharia guys"

It wasn't without prompting, it was a long taxi ride so I was making small talk about it, asking about Ramadan etc. It just escalated, and he was clearly unusual in his vehemence. As I said, this is a city with a large Muslim population and so they're not the minority. Shops don't sell pork, Subways are Halal. Like I said they often keep to themselves, but there have been a few times where I've heard one talk to non-Muslims about it.

Sorry if I come across as offensive, but then I don't consider religion a taboo topic nor do I equate criticising those who follow it with racism or any other prejudice. All religions have beliefs that just don't sit easy with the modern world; it's just that in my time I've met more (openly, at least) devout, Conservative Muslims than of any other religion.
 

kittoo

Cretinously credulous
It's one thing to spread he good word, it's quiet another to berate an unbeliever.

here's why I think it's not true, going by his anecdote the taxi driver would be a conservative Muslim, correct?!

I grew up in the Middle East in very Muslim areas and if there's one thing I've noticed is conservatives do this to other Muslims who are not as "devout" as they are, now this happens frequently in a Muslim country..... Conservative Muslims know enough that when they are in a foreign non-Muslim country not to go to non-Muslims and do exactly what the poster I was originally addressing.... If anything his story, just lines up with "they are tying to spread, sharia guys"

Thats bullshit. You ask others not to generalize, but somehow end-up generalizing your own brethren (albeit in a good light)? Why is it that hard to believe? I have also dealt with Muslims who, while very nice in general, would explode, figuratively, whenever Islam came into picture. Well educated ones but full of conspiracy theories and preaching, if indirectly, about Islam (we believe this, we believe that, this is why its good) and there is no argument to be had.
Yeah. According to you all conservative Muslims only do this to less devout Muslims but never to others? Not a single one? Give me a break.
 

trembli0s

Member
Disgusting.

The sentences for the US aren't that much longer typically for convictions based on material support of terrorism either.

Just very hard to calibrate the balance between supporting terrorism, releasing them back into the community, and hoping the time bomb doesn't ever go off.
 

Dynamite Shikoku

Congratulations, you really deserve it!
can we just hurry up and build a new country for angry muslims to go to where they can all be super conservative or whatever and leave the rest of the world alone
 
Thats bullshit. You ask others not to generalize, but somehow end-up generalizing your own brethren (albeit in a good light)? Why is it that hard to believe? I have also dealt with Muslims who, while very nice in general, would explode, figuratively, whenever Islam came into picture. Well educated ones but full of conspiracy theories and preaching, if indirectly, about Islam (we believe this, we believe that, this is why its good) and there is no argument to be had.
Yeah. According to you all conservative Muslims only do this to less devout Muslims but never to others? Not a single one? Give me a break.

It's super rare, we had a thread the other day where a Muslim waitress was assaulted by other Muslim men for serving alcohol in Ramadan.

That there is my proof that yes, this happens frequently in the community. If they do approach non-Muslims I can tell you that they don't campaign for sharia law to be the law of the land
 

milanbaros

Member?
It's one thing to spread he good word, it's quiet another to berate an unbeliever.

here's why I think it's not true, going by his anecdote the taxi driver would be a conservative Muslim, correct?!

I grew up in the Middle East in very Muslim areas and if there's one thing I've noticed is conservatives do this to other Muslims who are not as "devout" as they are, now this happens frequently in a Muslim country..... Conservative Muslims know enough that when they are in a foreign non-Muslim country not to go to non-Muslims and do exactly what the poster I was originally addressing.... If anything his story, just lines up with "they are tying to spread, sharia guys"

Edit:

Where do you stay that Muslim people come and campaign for sharia law?

What makes you think they come from anywhere but where they live?
 
I lost two friends in the attack on gays in Orlando.

Its time to have an uncomfortable worldwide dialogue about Islam and the hate and violence it preaches like no other religion.
 

Manoko

Member
I lost two friends in the attack on gays in Orlando.

Its time to have an uncomfortable worldwide dialogue about Islam and the hate and violence it preaches like no other religion.

Definitely.
Freedom of religion doesn't mean freedom of hatred, and as someone who grew up in a muslim family, I know how much jews for example can be vilified through the lens of Islam.
 
Definitely.
Freedom of religion doesn't mean freedom of hatred, and as someone who grew up in a muslim family, I know how much jews for example can be vilified through the lens of Islam.

Thank you so much. I really wish there were more Muslims who would speak out about this.
 
The man who killed a police officer and his partner in Magnanville, France, on Monday night threatened the Euro 2016 football championship in a Facebook video posted from the scene of the attack, a police source told CNN.
Larossi Abballa, who had pledged allegiance to ISIS, said that the tournament currently underway in France "will be like a cemetery," the source said.

Police investigating the killing of a French police officer and his partner by a terrorist who pledged allegiance to ISIS found a list of targets at the scene of the Monday attack in Magnanville, Paris Prosecutor Francois Molins said Tuesday.
The list included celebrities, rappers, police officers, prison guards and journalists, he said.

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/06/14/europe/french-policeman-terror-attack/index.html
 
If by conversation, you mean throw out all Muslims and commit war crimes in the middle east leading to an expansion of these attacks, than sre
he never said he's gonna throw them all out.
No it isn't.

What Trump is promising is to halt Muslim immigration to the US. That would not have stopped the shooters in Orlando or in San Bernedino. Those Muslims were American citizens.
doesn't he also want to keep tabs on american muslims?
 
I don't believe you.

I do because I experienced something similar in Germany a year ago
I believe him too. At work I don't go around telling everyone as a public service announcement that I'm fasting. It only comes up in conversation if and when people wonder why I am not eating. But otherwise I actively avoid making a big deal out of it unless someone is being obnoxious on purpose.
Sorry block any Muslim from entering the US. I'm sorry I misspoke on his insane policy.
Yeah I don't know if I appreciate that particular policy either. I never wanna go back to the motherland and I'd rather bring more of my extended family here.

But Trump seems to be the only candidate who at least acknowledges how big of a problem this is and how it needs to be dealt with.
 

Calamari41

41 > 38
Yeah I don't know if I appreciate that particular policy either. I never wanna go back to the motherland and I'd rather bring more of my extended family here.

But Trump seems to be the only candidate who at least acknowledges how big of a problem this is and how it needs to be dealt with.

The thing that bothers me is that it seems in the hours and days after each of these attacks, all of the details about these people starts flooding out. Details that seem pretty easy to find, and which the authorities had no clue about even after official investigations.

We almost immediately learn that everyone surrounding Mateen "saw this coming," that his father was a Taliban supporter, that he was scouting out Disney World, his co-workers were reporting him, etc.

We learn that the underwear bomber's father had tried to warn the US about his son.

We learn that the Russian government directly warned the US about the Tsarnaev brothers a year and a half before the bombing.

We learn that Nidal Hassan was exhibiting clear warning signs which were ignored by his superiors and the Pentagon.

We learned, almost immediately, that the San Bernardino shooters had a list of red flags a mile long, including the woman listing a fabricated city as her hometown in her immigration forms. Days after the fact we were serenaded by newscasts about their radicalism, foreign trips, etc.

And the subject of this thread, a convicted conspirator, a recruiter. Let out after three years. What?

Trump is an extremist, but it is pretty clear that the system that exists right now is not working. Maybe the fact that people with as many red flags as Mateen, or the Tsarnaev brothers, or Tashfeen Malik are considered "needles in a haystack" is itself a problem. These people should stand out, but they don't. Why?
 

Condom

Member
The thing that bothers me is that it seems in the hours and days after each of these attacks, all of the details about these people starts flooding out. Details that seem pretty easy to find, and which the authorities had no clue about even after official investigations.

We almost immediately learn that everyone surrounding Mateen "saw this coming," that his father was a Taliban supporter, that he was scouting out Disney World, his co-workers were reporting him, etc.

We learn that the underwear bomber's father had tried to warn the US about his son.

We learn that the Russian government directly warned the US about the Tsarnaev brothers a year and a half before the bombing.

We learn that Nidal Hassan was exhibiting clear warning signs which were ignored by his superiors and the Pentagon.

We learned, almost immediately, that the San Bernardino shooters had a list of red flags a mile long, including the woman listing a fabricated city as her hometown in her immigration forms. Days after the fact we were serenaded by newscasts about their radicalism, foreign trips, etc.

And the subject of this thread, a convicted conspirator, a recruiter. Let out after three years. What?

Trump is an extremist, but it is pretty clear that the system that exists right now is not working. Maybe the fact that people with as many red flags as Mateen, or the Tsarnaev brothers, or Tashfeen Malik are considered "needles in a haystack" is itself a problem. These people should stand out, but they don't. Why?

Dude any government gets thousands of warnings every month. They can't possible process everything and prevent everything.

People really have unrealistic expectations of governments in general and part of it is to blame on the government itself for acting like they are almighty, center of power etc. plz believe in representative democracy yadi yadi ya.
They are not, governments are losing their power to corporations and they have their operational limits of handling security.
 
The thing that bothers me is that it seems in the hours and days after each of these attacks, all of the details about these people starts flooding out. Details that seem pretty easy to find, and which the authorities had no clue about even after official investigations.These people should stand out, but they don't. Why?

It's hard to appreciate the challenge of intelligence analysis from the outside looking in. Simply put:

- You only hear of intelligence failures (i.e. completed attacks with victims), you rarely, if ever, hear of successful interventions or recognise them as such when they do get reported. Those interventions, by definition, aren't very 'sexy' or spectacular: it would be things like preventing two girls from travelling to Syria to join IS, having an influential imam talk to a confused youth, keeping a known radical in jail longer by tying him to an unrelated crime, withdrawing someone's student visa, freezing a dozen suspect bank accounts and even letting a group of radicals know 'we're on to them' so they get paranoid and delay their preparations. Stuff like that is the real 'war on terror' that's happening all across Europe every day, fought by people whose hundreds of small victories get swept away by one major defeat.

- We operate in free democracies with all the limitations and accountability that entails. This is a good thing but it means we can't just hunt, jail, extradite or even kill people that seem 'fishy'... there is a staggering amount of people who sympathize with radical ideals and passively or actively support armed struggle against perceived injustices. You can't control all of them all the time so you pick your battles.

- The targets of these investigations are often part of communities that feel deeply marginalised within Western society. We're very reliant on these communities to help us root out the criminals in their midst but alienating them through repression, discrimination and persecution erodes our support and ability to gather intelligence. We know from bitter experience that 'dragnet' investigations against religious / ethnic communities only creates dark zones in our cities that terrorists can easily disappear into.

- Knowing who to target is only part of the equation, your intelligence also has to be 'actionable' ... are there any laws being broken that warrant arrest? Can we deport someone? And if so, to where? Will that solve the problem? If we move against this one person, are we sure he's not part of a group who'll be triggered to move up their time table?

TLDR; if intelligence work was simple, terrorism and organised crime would not exist; this is a long-term war and we will lose some battles. Professionals work insanely hard to mitigate the damage but they'll never stop all of it.
 

Calamari41

41 > 38
Dude any government gets thousands of warnings every month. They can't possible process everything and prevent everything.

People really have unrealistic expectations of governments in general and part of it is to blame on the government itself for acting like they are almighty, center of power etc. plz believe in representative democracy yadi yadi ya.
They are not, governments are losing their power to corporations and they have their operational limits of handling security.

In which case we need to figure out what the capacity is of our security apparatus and develop our policy, immigration and otherwise, around that.

I'm not trying to say that intelligence work is easy, or that the people involved do a bad job. I am a member of the intelligence community, I know full well what the situation is. All I'm saying is that we need to look at what is happening and figure out how to create policy that doesn't result in a situation where somebody shoots up a gay club while pledging allegiance to ISIS and everyone who knew him says "yeah, that sounds about right" hours later, while the FBI scratches their collective heads because their caseload is too high to have noticed him.
 
It wasn't without prompting, it was a long taxi ride so I was making small talk about it, asking about Ramadan etc. It just escalated, and he was clearly unusual in his vehemence. As I said, this is a city with a large Muslim population and so they're not the minority. Shops don't sell pork, Subways are Halal. Like I said they often keep to themselves, but there have been a few times where I've heard one talk to non-Muslims about it.

Sorry if I come across as offensive, but then I don't consider religion a taboo topic nor do I equate criticising those who follow it with racism or any other prejudice. All religions have beliefs that just don't sit easy with the modern world; it's just that in my time I've met more (openly, at least) devout, Conservative Muslims than of any other religion.

Nah man go ahead and criticize.

I just found it odd the way you phrased it, like the guy just started coming at you..... I was like wtf man.

But hey it's the internet
 
Nah man go ahead and criticize.

I just found it odd the way you phrased it, like the guy just started coming at you..... I was like wtf man.

But hey it's the internet
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spekkeh

Banned
oh my GOD.isis must be destroyed.
That won't change a thing, Isis didn't even have a hand in this. It's simply fulfilling the same role as Al Qaeda did before it; to function as a banner or lightning rod of expansionist Islamists who believe in a violent worldwide jihad.

Salafi Islam needs to be 'destroyed'. And after that, maybe the Mullahs.
 

Sax1031

Banned
A Frenchman who pledged allegiance to Islamic State stabbed a police commander to death outside his home and killed his partner, who also worked for the police, in an attack the government denounced as "an abject act of terrorism".

Larossi Abballa, 25, also took the couple's three-year-old son hostage in Monday night's attack. The boy was found unharmed but in a state of shock after police commandos stormed the house and killed the attacker.

Born in France of Moroccan origin, Abballa was jailed in 2013 for helping Islamist militants go to Pakistan and had been under security service surveillance, including wiretaps, at the time of the attack, Paris prosecutor Francois Molins said.

The attacker told police negotiators during the siege he had answered an appeal by Iraq-based Islamic State chief Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi "to kill infidels at home with their families", Molins told a news conference.

"The killer said he was a practicing Muslim, was observing Ramadan and, that three weeks ago, he had pledged allegiance to ... Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi," Molins said.

Police found a bloodied knife at the scene along with a list of other potential targets including rap musicians, journalists and police officers, the prosecutor said.

The killings came as France, which has been under a state of emergency since Islamic State gunmen and bombers killed 130 people in Paris last November, was on high security alert for the Euro 2016 soccer tournament, which began last Friday.

In a video posted on social networks, Abballa linked the attack to the soccer championship, saying: "The Euros will be a graveyard."

The video had been removed from Facebook on Tuesday. Michelle Gilbert, a Paris-based spokeswoman for Facebook, said the company's guidelines forbade hate messages and aimed to remove such content swiftly from the website once alerted.

"ABJECT ACT OF TERRORISM"

The attacker knifed 42-year-old police commander Jean-Baptiste Salvaing repeatedly in the stomach on Monday evening.

He then barricaded himself inside the house in Magnanville, a suburb 60 km (40 miles) west of Paris, taking the policeman's partner Jessica Schneider, 36, and their boy hostage. Schneider, a secretary at a police station in a nearby suburb, was killed with a knife, Molins said without giving details.

Islamic State claimed the attack. "God has enabled one of the caliphate's soldiers in city of Les Mureaux near Paris to stab to death the deputy police chief and his wife," a broadcast on its Albayan Radio said.

It was the first militant strike on French soil since the multiple attacks on bars, restaurants, a concert hall and the national soccer stadium in Paris in November.

"An abject act of terrorism was carried out yesterday in Magnanville," Interior Minister Bernard Cazeneuve said after an emergency government meeting, before visiting Les Mureaux, where the police commander worked.

President Francois Hollande said the killings were "undeniably a terrorist act" and that the terrorist threat in France was very high.

Police searched Abballa's home and other locations on Tuesday and detained three people close to him for questioning.

Details started to emerge on the profile of the attacker. Abballa was born in the nearby town of Meulan and lived in Mantes-la-Jolie, where he had set up a fast food outlet in April, documents from the Versailles court showed.

He was given a three-year prison sentence in 2013 for helping Islamist militants go to Pakistan. His name appeared in a separate ongoing investigation into a man who went to Syria, but he was not considered a threat, a source close to the investigation said.

Abballa had also been convicted three times on charges of aggravated theft and driving without a license, another source close to the investigation said.

David Thomson, an RFI radio journalist specialized in Islamic radicalism, wrote on his Twitter page that Abballa had filmed himself at the site of the attack and posted the message on Facebook.

With the couple's boy behind him, Abballa said: "I don't know yet what I'm going to do with him," Thomson wrote.

Islamic State's claim of responsibility came after the Islamist militant group also claimed responsibility for the killing of 49 people at a gay nightclub in Orlando, Florida.

"In Orlando after the terrible homophobic terrorist attacks and Magnanville in a different way, the same ideology of death with the same beliefs (has been at work): kill and spread terror, contest who we are and prevent us from living freely," Prime Minister Manuel Valls told parliament.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-france-crime-idUSKCN0YZ2KA

apparently he tortured the female before killing her.
 

vinnygambini

Why are strippers at the U.N. bad when they're great at strip clubs???
No amount of therapy will help the poor 3 year-old kid - he witnessed the death of his mother, how awful.

I will pray for him tonight
 
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