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Paris Terrorist Attacks, 120+ dead. Do not post hearsay/unsourced/old news.

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O

OriginalThinking

Member
Prorgammer said:
You arent implying it you are just outright staing it go on keep blaming the victim.
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I don't think he/she's victim blaming. The situation in the middle east has been influenced by western politics for hundreds of years. Our intervenionalist policy is a subject of debate and controversy about wherever we've truly made the world a safer place or have fostered extremism against the west. There's a larger picture here about why extremism occurs. And its important we look at the historical context. There's a reason why this was done and its important to consider the environmental factors that breed this kind of hateful ideology. I think that's what the poster was trying to say. Assuming that this is linked to the middle east.

All that aside this is a truly horrific attack.
 
A

Ayt

Banned
BramVD said:
The Belgian government said a while ago that the police/anti terror forces etc... stop many possible attacks before they take place, but that it's just a matter of one organized attack slipping through the cracks before a disaster happens. This is the same in France, Germany, UK, etc..

You really do not have to be very smart to understand the risks and direct link to the refugee situation in Europe. If anyone flat out denies that, then keep living in your fantasy world of a tolerant multicultural society with bunnies, unicorns and welfare for all.

Many muslim terrorists arrived as refugees in Europe and were able to go into stealth mode calmly waiting to execute a planned attack.
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There is almost no chance there were refugees involved with this so what are you talking about?
 
E

ElTorro

I wanted to dominate the living room. Then I took an ESRAM in the knee.
Faith said:
We shouldn't forget who is responsible for the radicalization of the islamic world. It's a boomerang guys.
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Who is? Who, for instance, is responsible for the conflicts between Shia and Sunni which cause the vast majority of victims of islamic terror?
 
U

univariate

Banned
K

Kisaya

Member
Faith said:
We shouldn't forget who is responsible for the radicalization of the islamic world. It's a boomerang guys.
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^ terrorist organizations are bred from western involvement. Not excusing their actions at ALL. But people who are suggesting to bomb and be rid of the Middle East don't see that it is the cause of their motivation for these tragedies.
 
T

thepotatoman

Unconfirmed Member
GoldenEye 007 said:
I mean, I mentioned that question in my post? It's right there. I was asking for other solutions.

As for the total war thing. I'm somber in saying that. It's not something I'm celebrating. I'm acknowledging that especially because ISIS is not a sovereign nation with defined borders, it will require an extensive sweep and action in sovereign nations that are either incapable or unwilling to address ISIS and other similar organizations within their borders.

It would cost an immeasurable amount of lives. It would be ugly. It would be time-consuming. It would require unprecedented support. It would turn out to be WW3. It would then require an unprecedented level of occupation, rebuilding, government establishment, investment, and expense until these areas can reasonably resist extremist movements.

Now like I've said a million times now that nobody is reading, I also acknowledge that the political will for this does not exist (unless attacks like this continue). So yes, how else to address this? Doing nothing and just "living with the reality" isn't an option and I think we all know that.
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I guess I just want to know what our options actually are. If you're talking gruesome reality, then upping security and living with the reality of occasional terror attacks is an option.

Turning Syria and Iraq into a perpetual police state of the west might be another option, but I'm not sure if that will help if all it does is continue to give people in the middle east reasons to hate the west.
 
S

SwolBro

Banned
Kisaya said:
^ terrorist organizations are bred from western involvement. Not excusing their actions at ALL. But people who are suggesting to bomb and be rid of the Middle East don't see that it is the cause of their motivation for these tragedies.
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Nonsense. You're misinformed.
 
P

PeskyToaster

Member
Faith said:
We shouldn't forget who is responsible for the radicalization of the islamic world. It's a boomerang guys.
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Probably the people who chose to follow that idea. Human agency and all. You have to be responsible for your own actions. There's tons of people living in the area, experiencing the same environment and choosing not to join such movements.

I don't really believe in the brainwashing excuse people throw around for things like Nazis, Japanese in WWII, and other radical ideologies. I think it's a cop out. It allows us to ignore the flaws in humanity that allow a person to consciously choose to carry out such acts against other humans.
 
A

Always-honest

Banned
Cereal Enthusiast said:
Don't know if I'm allowed to post this, people running from the bataclan, shocking, be careful:
http://www.rtl.be/info/monde/france...ang-partout-des-cadavres-partout--770593.aspx

Absolutely horrible.
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Jesus christ... The horror that took place there.
For what? Religion is one of those things that needs to go way down the list of priorities in this world. We need to believe in humanity. We are on a real planet with real people and we CAN live together without fucking fairytales.

edit: yeah.. i know religion is not to blame here. Sorry. I was kinda emotional at that moment. Though do dislike that religion is so irrational.
 
F

FloatingDivider

Member
Jesus christ at that dailymotion footage. This is such incredible inhumanity it's nearly unfathomable that there are people out there capable of being motivated enough to inflict it. I hope we can find a solution to this obviously escalating conflict.

If people have issues getting it to work on the rtl site, here's a direct link to dailymotion:http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3dqzx9_images-de-la-fusillade-au-bataclan_news

Please be warned it's graphic and you might be better off not watching it.
 
B

Bam Bam Baklava

Member
thepotatoman said:
I guess I just want to know what our options actually are. If you're talking gruesome reality, then upping security and living with the reality of occasional terror attacks is an option.

Turning Syria and Iraq into perpetual police state of the west might be another option, but I'm not sure if that will help if all it does is continue to give people reasons to hate the west.
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Don't forget just finding a solution to the Israel/Palestine conflict. Like we just haven't been trying hard enough. The way this user describes this stuff it's like just flipping a switch with no regard for thousands of years of history, countless different sides being brought to the table, and a globalized world in which ideology is not confined to a geographical location. It's absolutely mind boggling someone can think so simply.
 
D

DrBo42

Member
ElTorro said:
If you think that terror perpetrated and supported by people who shout "allahu akbar" while they are massacring people, who willingly blow themselves up because they "love death more than [we] love life", and who associate with the "Islamic State", which regularly publishes theological justifications for its actions, are not warranted to be labeled "Islamic", then you have been blinded by a miscalibrated identity politics. It should go without saying that this does not mean that all Muslims are islamists or jihadists, but apparently it's not obvious to you.

What Islamic texts have you read so far?
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Yikes. I'm saying it's usually the precursor of some version of the bolded.

Why is everyone jumping down each other's throat in here? You don't know me, don't throw shitty comments my way.
 
M

mehrmantrout

Member
kitch9 said:
In hindsight Gaddafi and Hussein kept control with far less bloodshed....
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They most certainly did. I lived in Libya pre and post revolution so saw first hand how the west dealt with the reconstruction of the country and ignored the rise of radical Islam as a force. If another thread pops up I'll write a long ass post on it

Edit I'm not justifying there actions but the region is extremely complicated
 
G

GoldenEye 007

Member
Bam Bam Baklava said:
Do me a favor right now and it's real simple. Explain to me what military action would have stopped the Boston bombers from doing what they did.

You also said you're not an expert so maybe you should stop stubbornly defending every single thing you say as gospel and open your mind to what people are trying to explain to you.
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Me asking for alternatives is the antithesis to "stubbornly defending everything I say and not opening my mind." It conveys that I acknowledged once again that I understand the political will for what I say doesn't exist at this time and therefore what would be a different solution? You've just have failed to state any sort of potential solution other than apparently just leave things alone and I guess hope it all works out?

And the military action is meant to systematically take out infrastructure and overall will - again coupled with competent long-term support, infrastructure, education, etc. after the fact to establish non-shit governments that can locally defend against extremists. Not laving a vacuum like Iraq and to a lesser extent Afghanistan. The idea being that due to that strengthened infrastructure, increased resources and education, there is less demand for extremest actions like the Boston bomber or attacks like Paris today, 9/11, etc.
 
B

b00_thegh0st

Member
Cryxo93 said:
Don't we all. I was fucking scared last night. Don't get me wrong...
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I know I still am. I live like 300 meters away from one of the shooting scenes. So glad I took my shift @ 7pm yesterday. So glad none of my friends got involved...

I feel a lot older this morning. So sorry about the victims and their families.
 
EarsOfASnake

EarsOfASnake

Member
Ayt said:
There is almost no chance there were refugees involved with this so what are you talking about?
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Don't be so obtuse. It is quite possible that people meaning to causes terror would use the refugee situation to move around easier and to their advantage.
 
P

patapuf

Member
Faith said:
We shouldn't forget who is responsible for the radicalization of the islamic world. It's a boomerang guys.
Click to expand...

Wahabism is not a result of western intervention.

Kisaya said:
^ terrorist organizations are bred from western involvement. Not excusing their actions at ALL. But people who are suggesting to bomb and be rid of the Middle East don't see that it is the cause of their motivation for these tragedies.
Click to expand...

Only people who don't know about the history of islam pretend it's radicalisation is primarily a result of western conflicts.
 
S

Sephiroth_VII

Member
Bam Bam Baklava said:
People need to get these WW2 fantasies out their minds. That time is long gone and the world that existed then could not be any different from the one we live in now. Vietnam was the beginning of this new reality, then Soviet Afghan War and now the War on Terror. The days where it was all real simple and people signed unconditional surrenders on board a battleship while posing for photos don't exist anymore. No matter how much you want them to.

The sooner you stop living in the past, the sooner you can actually confront the issues.
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I wouldn't say that the world has changed, so much as that we are fighting in different kinds of countries. A war between the US and China, for instance, would probably be much more traditional(ignoring the nukes).
 
A

Always-honest

Banned
MikeDub said:
Don't be so obtuse. It is quite possible that people meaning to causes terror would use the refugee situation to move around easier and to their advantage.
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Oh they will. Right winged political parties will have a ball with this. And aggressive dumbasses will cause some trouble here and there, possibly and probably hurting innocent people having nothing to do with this all.
 
B

Bam Bam Baklava

Member
GoldenEye 007 said:
Me asking for alternatives is the antithesis to "stubbornly defending everything I say and not opening my mind." It conveys that I acknowledged once again that I understand the political will for what I say doesn't exist at this time and therefore what would be a different solution? You've just have failed to state any sort of potential solution other than apparently just leave things alone and I guess hope it all works out?

And the military action is meant to systematically take out infrastructure and overall will - again coupled with competent long-term support, infrastructure, education, etc. after the fact to establish non-shit governments that can locally defend against extremists. Not laving a vacuum like Iraq and to a lesser extent Afghanistan. The idea being that due to that strengthened infrastructure, increased resources and education, there is less demand for extremest actions like the Boston bomber or attacks like Paris today, 9/11, etc.
Click to expand...

The problem is that if there was a good solution, we would have done it by now. Your solution is fantastical and a nonstarter. There's really nothing to debate.
 
nekkid

nekkid

It doesn't matter who we are, what matters is our plan.
Always-honest said:
Jesus christ... The horror that took place there.
For what? Religion is one of those things that needs to go way down the list of priorities in this world. We need to believe in humanity. We are on a real planet with real people and we CAN live together without fucking fairytales.
Click to expand...

People will always find reasons to do this bullshit with or without religion: power, envy, "revenge"... Religion is an excuse, not the cause.
 
W

Wellscha

Member
Kisaya said:
I'm not. I've lived in the Middle East temporarily and heard crap of justifying killing Americans and Europeans because of what they've done to Iraq and Afganistan.
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Did you know the reason why Alqaida came to be was because of their rejection of the liberation of Kuwait by infidel coalition?
 
T

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
Oh my god. I was on a flight all day, I completely missed all of this. I'm at a loss for words. My heart goes to anyone affected, for whatever minuscule value that is.
 
K

kitch9

Banned
Ayt said:
There is almost no chance there were refugees involved with this so what are you talking about?
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Hmmm, lemme see.

If I wanted to get a load of crazy dudes with guns into Europe at the moment, I wonder what would be the easiest way to do it?
 
J

Jonm1010

Banned
Glitchfire said:
Anyone who wants to blame western culture for this is absolutely fucked. Radical Islam sympathizers.
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There is a difference between blaming the west and acknowledging it has an influence on many radical groups in the middle east.

Does it in this instance? No one knows right now.

Ultimately the blame lies on the perpetrators and the perpetrators alone. Anyone saying otherwise is misguided and wrong.

But under no circumstance does pointing out that a number of radical groups find fuel in western actions mean they are radical islam supporters. Get out of here with that fucking nonsense.
 
W

woen

Member
Kabouter said:
Yeah, radical Muslim theologists.
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Mono-causal explanations are always the best.

This is a political issue, not a religious one. ISIS is a political response that has its own coherence (as hard it is to admit it). An issue that grows and spread each time we attack it.

Until people will understand that we won't see nothing but the growth of these phenomenas, especially in Western countries (where is the political and media coverage) but also in the counties we don't care about.

If you're interested in these, try Google & translate Alain Bertho (+janvier 2015, attentats, charlie hebdo)
 
X

Xan Kriegor

Banned
Kabouter said:
When it comes to religious fundamentalism, it really doesn't take two to tango.
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People need a motivation to rally. An act by the west will be used as "See brethren! This act by the infidels was predicted in the Holy Quran and the Holy Quran holds the answer, we should exterminate them!" by some shouting idiots the other idiots get behind.

The problem in my opinion with the Quran is that it's very easy to misinterpret. The Quran is simultaneously a book of peace to a lot of people and a book of hate.

And and btw, it does take two to tango. I'm from an Islamic country that was modern, open and civilized in the 60's and 70's until Americans ignited their fire. Now it's in shambles. My family saw huge losses, saw the rise of fundamentalism as a retaliation. I hope your country and family never endures the losses my family had gone through, but it would make you rethink your statement.
 
E

ElTorro

I wanted to dominate the living room. Then I took an ESRAM in the knee.
krang said:
People will always find reasons to do this bullshit with or without religion: power, envy, "revenge"... Religion is an excuse, not the cause.
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Then why is it always so easy to guess the ideological identity of the terrorists even before it was reported?

It's not the cause, but to deny that it is a cause—an important one—is not helpful at all.
 
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