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Paris Terrorist Attacks, 120+ dead. Do not post hearsay/unsourced/old news.
- Thread starter chadskin
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You are going really deep into conspiracy territory there. Stuff like this does not erupt from some master plan hatched years ago. It is fluid, and without an initial purpose when it begins.
That being said, people in this thread need to stop turning their strong emotions concerning these attacks against other posters. We are all angry.
This is the beginning of another huge war though. And a ton of people innocent or not are going to die in it.
Phantast2k
Member
Possible accomplice caught in Rosenheim, Germany (a few days ago):
https://translate.google.com/transl...er-attentat-paris-100.html&edit-text=&act=url (German source, google translated)
A few days ago Police caught a man from Montenegro who had guns and explosives in a secret compartment.
The man was apparently on his way to Paris.
French authorities were informed.
No official confirmation, but the news comes from a state-affiliated / controlled, local news broadcasting service: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayerischer_Rundfunk
https://translate.google.com/transl...er-attentat-paris-100.html&edit-text=&act=url (German source, google translated)
A few days ago Police caught a man from Montenegro who had guns and explosives in a secret compartment.
The man was apparently on his way to Paris.
French authorities were informed.
No official confirmation, but the news comes from a state-affiliated / controlled, local news broadcasting service: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayerischer_Rundfunk
According to your logic there is a disturbed Hindus youths in India and they're killing Muslims in the name of their religion but that's not the subject here. When people say this is not Islam they mean it's not what Islam call for. If a Christian went and killed many people will you think that Christianity is the problem?
Most of the terrorists are people calling themselves Muslims is due to the fact that the ME is unstable and the west has a lot of interference with it. Some people are using that to lure the stupid youth into terrorist organization like ISIS.
Battlechili
Banned
Oh my...This is terrifying! I really hope those in and around Paris find a way to stay safe...I don't want to see more people get hurt. I hope these terrorist attacks end soon. No more needless bloodshed, please.
Typical, you keep avoiding my point. Yeah, you got the answers to eliminate ISIS, but do you got a way to eliminate the deaths of innocents at their hands in the western world? If not, fuck off?
Oh, right, you want the western world to eliminate them to end all suffering across the world. Awesome.
Naive
Islam is a religion of more than a billion people. Democracies self regulate, but the religion of peace doesn't? You present so many strawmen regarding who are 'true' ISIS members but fail to realize that ISIS members have a unifying belief in the elimination of apostates(which we all are); but you continue to present nonsensical explanations for their existence with things like some of them "are rich", "are well educated", "have different motivations", and then end your argument by saying the only solution to this is by violently murdering them. Really? AND then, you have the audacity to go ahead and call people naive. Present some empirical data, if you're going to make broad statements of a particular fundamentalist group fitting a mold you've created. The burden of proof is yours. And I don't think you know the the half of it. Groups like ISIS are retribution against western interests. They are creations of the west. Short term violence will not solve this problem. I will again emphasize that it is naive to believe it will.
In summation, you call someone naive for suggesting the answer is not violence, and then contend that the violent removal of extremists is the answer. Brilliant. Yep, you got the answers and fuck me for suggesting otherwise!
It is rich how you barely grasp the English language and still accuse me of not paying attention. It seems like you know how to solve ISIS problem yet no one else does! Honestly, you should reread all your shitty posts before your next attempt at a reply, for coherence's sake. But I don't have faith in your comprehension so for that, I must say bye.
I just read through the exchange between you two, and you are totally putting words in their mouth.
You are totally arguing against statements that the person did not make, and making assumptions that they intended to make them.
It is unfortunate that in 2015 we live in a world where such disastrous acts of ego projection exist. To have views that are not innate to reality and are instead exclusive concepts and evocations onto reality, they're almost guaranteed to create conflict and problems that aren't originally there.
Almost every developed nation today has a bigbear of these disillusions, but it seems religious extremism is the bucket load of the most volatile elements of confusing subjectivity with objectivity, descriptions of ideas with the world itself.
I wonder when, if ever, we will see a society sincerely "wake up" to their own dreams, otherwise this will be a train of thought that will never end.
Almost every developed nation today has a bigbear of these disillusions, but it seems religious extremism is the bucket load of the most volatile elements of confusing subjectivity with objectivity, descriptions of ideas with the world itself.
I wonder when, if ever, we will see a society sincerely "wake up" to their own dreams, otherwise this will be a train of thought that will never end.
I'm not talking about the small youth who went to there because these are clearly brainwashed. I'm talking about the people who run this operation and whether they have some sort of alliance with Iran. you might be right and that this just me looking into nothing here bit I just find it really suspicious that ISIS action in the region were concentrated in the area where Iran was going to lost their influence and that almost all ISIS actions served Iran in the area.
There are 1.6 BILLION Muslims. If this was as systemic and incompatible as you say the world would be fucked right now. It would be World War on a completely new level. Attacks would be daily, constant and never ending. You wouldn't have Muslims fleeing war torn areas thinking the West will give them hope for a better life.
Bam Bam Baklava
Member
I'm not sure how grabbing territory from the Shiite government of Baghdad is working for Iran. Considering that government is in close relations with Iran.
This claim seems awfully bold and certain considering we're not even 24 hours past the actual event.
petran79
Banned
Europe and USA need to do something with Turkey fast, a country ISIS uses as gateway to Europe and also to sell their oil. Smugglers as well.
They even require abolishing visas from Merkel...
Though if this attack had happened in Moscow or anywhere else, there would be immediate announcements for travel restrictions by western media
They even require abolishing visas from Merkel...
Though if this attack had happened in Moscow or anywhere else, there would be immediate announcements for travel restrictions by western media
I'm just going by what I've observed but it seems to be the Obama administration has decided to call it ISIL while everyone in Europe calls it ISIS.
Well I believe today it is also about the West, because the West get involved and that today in a age of globalisation you obviously have links. People making jihad in Syria and Iraq can come from Europe or other parts of the world. They lived in secular States, sometimes in non-religious families, converted themselves in their 20ies, although they are going to fight in the name of an organisation that claims to fulfill religious goals.
So what do you do ? Do you only rely on emotion ? Do you only look at what "they" say ? Do you only fantasize with their propaganda, carefully made by their ministry of communication ? Or do you try to understand why your former classmate in high school is now a married wife in Syria or your former friend in your filmmaking association is now making morbid videos that are seen hundred of thousands of times on youtube ? They didn't woke up one day to say "let's go in Iraq" or "let's shoot a concert". They w. That's not saying this is "the West"'s fault, we are the one to blamed, this is watching reality with the tools we have (social sciences mainly). Read books. Specialists of islam, of rebellion, of the Middle-East. Journalists or sociologist that met people who went to Syria for jihad. The answers are here.
Thank you for you kind words.
killer_clank
Member
it's just a translation thing mostly - IS themselves don't really call that part of the world 'syria' iirc.
mehrmantrout
Member
Qatar funds most of the radical islamists (not necessarily ISIS)
These attacks ARE happening on a daily basis, just not always in the cities of the Western world. You realize that over 10.000 terrorist attacks are committed every year? It's mostly Muslim perpetrators, but also Muslim victims. It is a war of ideas, not only between Muslims, but also with non-Muslims.
10,000 compared to 1.6 billion. And those 10,000 are concentrated to a narrow sect of the religion. Again, lets not overstate things here. The islamic religion has its problems. Some inherent and a lot circumstantial. But the VAST majority of Muslims are living peaceful, normal lives and do not support terror or radicalism.
GoldenEye 007
Member
Well I'm not a military advisor. I said as much. Ultimately this is the off-topic section of a video game forum so nothing I say matters in the real world. Not sure why you're seeming so upset as realistically both of our "solutions" are untenable and unrealistic in the present climate and has no bearing on anything.
The reason I dismissed your post like I did is largely due to the French president's statements. You don't say things like fighting attackers "without mercy" without meaning a likely military response. That's why I said something will for sure happen. They are not going to sit there and no nothing or wait for things to blow over.
And again, nothing sounds amazing at all. I'm not sure why you are failing to understand or acknowledge that any "solutions" I have said would be difficult, ugly, drawn out, expensive, etc. Nothing is amazing about that. So I'm not sure why you are insisting you think I think this is amazing. I've said or implied nothing of the sort.
UnluckyKate
Member
Sölf;185436083 said:
- several attacks synchronised around paris
- two suicide vests went off around stade de france, the biggest arena of france, were friendly france germnay soccer game was live, with our president there and all his staff and minister. First time a suicide vest was used on french territory, 200 meters away from the stadium and our president (smh) luckily, the didn't appear to have killed anyone but their bombers
- runs and guns scenario in paris
- 3 people apparently stormed Bataclan theater, one or two vest went off, grenades tossed at crowd, blind fire in crowd, hostage situation declared but never they wanted to take hostages, they just shot everybody hiding in the theater with cold methodology. GIGN (french swat) went in at 1AM because people on twitter and facebook were reporting being stuck inside and were witnessing cold execution with no form of hostage situation what so ever. 80 people found dead inside after raid, 4 operators killed, 2 terrorists down.
- 128 confirmed dead
- 8 terrorists reported killed, one maybe apprehended
emergency protocols all around, france closed their borders, everything is closed this morning, schools, swiming pools, not sure about train stations.
Need to buy food for my cats and for me not sure where can I find anything open. I know its trivial but everybody is so scared on FB, text, phone, my mother is afraid to peak outside smh...
How's that Game of Thrones quote go again? Basically, at the end of the day, people just want a home to go to, a family to love, and food to eat. Muslims aren't all some radicalized group dying to get to Heaven through murder and subjugation.
As I said there was a huge protest of Sunni people in Al anbar against the discrimination against them in Iraq and guess how it was shut down. Also ISIS attacked helped Iran to build a new militia Alhadhs Alshabi with global support which is build on Iraqi budget and is derived from Shia ideology. They did some horrifying acts in the Sunni territories where they where stationed. Again I might be reading too much into this but the investigations showed that Almalki the previous president had a lot of responsibility in ISIS control now.
Yes, because there's nothing Islamic terrorists care more about than the humans treatment of the refugees they sent running...
worth posting.
(I live near Paris and had to make sure everyone i know was safe btw)
"We'll bomb your home, rape your family. But rest assured, if Europe doesn't take you in and treat you well, we'll fuck them up too!"
Bam Bam Baklava
Member
But there's actual video evidence of ISIS fighting Syrian forces. The same forces Iran is helping.
There's plenty of examples why this seems REALLY hard to believe. What about the Iranian commander that was killed in combat in Syria?
MisterFalcon
Member
Would 2% of all Muslims waging voilent jihad be a problem ? That's still leaves the VAST majority of Muslims out of it. It also means an army of 32 million, vastly outnumbering all other armies combined.
From what I have read, there are differing views on this. Some people say it is ISIS because originally it referred to Syria. Then some say ISIL because the scope of the organization has become bigger than Syria. There is also the issue of translating Arabic into English acronyms. I have also read that one acronym is more offensive to the group then the other, so that gets used by western media. Whatever the case, everyone knows who you are talking about regardless.
worth posting.
(I live near Paris and had to make sure everyone i know was safe btw)
Well... someone is now on a watch list if they weren't already
Guerrillas in the Mist
Member
Apparently it had a capacity of 1,500 and was almost full.
Yeah, it should be apparent to everyone that there's various causes making these kinds of nightmares happen. Radical religious rhetoric contributes. Poverty contributes. Poor education contributes. Genetics and upbringing contributes. Even Western interventions in the Middle East contributes. Instead of fighting over which pet explanation we think is most contributory everyone should just agree that there's many reasons why this shit happens.
So how do we work toward a solution, to prevent tragedies like this in the future? Closing borders and bombing people doesn't seem to work so well. It's just my opinion, but I think we need to step up our social/cultural engineering efforts. In school we test kids on their knowledge, which is fine, but I think we should really test character too. Is this student quick to violence? Put them through an anger management class. Does this one have crippling anxiety? Put them through confidence training. Exams could (for example) have a student faced with someone insulting their deeply held beliefs and if they respond violently they fail and have to resit, but if they debate sensibly, agree to disagree, or resolve the conflict in some other tolerant way then they pass.
Immigration reform could also involve having people go through such tests. If I wanted to become a US citizen today I would need to pass a civics exam first. But I could know everything about US law/government/culture and still be a murderous psychopath. An empathy/character test would filter out the crazies much more effectively than a knowledge-oriented exam.
Anyway, sorry you have to deal with this shit, France.
I never said that all Muslims were involved, but you stated that attacks did not happen daily, but they do. However, the fact that Muslims are targeting each other way more than western civilians, seems to strongly suggest that these problems are not that exclusive to western intervention, as some claim it to be in this thread.
Bam Bam Baklava
Member
Looks like CNN finally updated their number of dead to 128 from 153. God, they really do suck.
Makes sense actually. Their job is to spread terror and sow strife. What better way to do that than to strike at the countries who care and harbor the sick and wounded. As with all extremist attacks, fascism starts to rise and now ISIS or other terrorists can radicalize those who are turned away or find themselves victims to the Western response. And it works virtually every time, and judging by the rhetoric in this thread, it's going to work again.
Of course it would be a problem. 32 million radical anything is a problem.
But the premise originally presented was that Islam as a whole was completely incompatible with Western society. .
Where you get that 32 million number is anyones guess though.
This has to be among the stupidest things I've read all day.
Terrorists angry that people fleeing from their terrorism are not treated well enough? Wat?
Why it's not all Islam's fault or whatever the narrative is.
If Bush had let Colin Powell run things like he was in Afghanistan early on, where we were being smart about getting the CIA to work with local leaders to turn over Al Qaeda members, we'd probably be fine. But Bush had Cheney as VP, a guy who was intensely paranoid about the CIA, being from the Nixon administration. He and Rumsfeld were all about getting into Iraq, even way before they were in office. That was the goal of their Project for a New American Century. Cheney flat out ignored everything the CIA told him, and he created his own intelligence service in the Pentagon, the Office of Special Plans, who invented all the bullshit about WMDs, aluminum tubes, etc., all to justify the Iraq War.
So rather than capturing Bin Laden in Afghanistan when we had him cornered, we ditched that and diverted all of our forces into Iraq, a country which had nothing to do with 9/11, and who we knew from the inspectors did not have viable WMDs and wasn't a threat.
Wait, hold on. Just listen to this relatively recent podcast (The Dollop). It's not how I learned about these things, but they do a good job at explaining it, and the way it's presented is as funny as it is depressing:
http://thedollop.libsyn.com/122-the-iraq-war
(MP3 file)
Spoilers from here on. Everything that could have been managed in a reasonable way was completely fucked up by the worst people you could ever hope to hire for the job. It's like the mismanagement of Hurricane Katrina times a billion, only without all that pesky media coverage to let us know how fucked it all was.
You want to know what led to ISIS? Look up De-Ba'athification. Rather than working with the Iraqi professionals on the ground who knew all about Iraqi infrastructure, education, military, etc., people who we obviously could have used to rebuild the country, we just fired them all. They then had no means to make a living and, oh, they were heavily armed. The Bush Administration didn't see how that was a recipe for disaster, and they'll happily deny it that this day.
Vigilant Walrus
Member
This is all so insane. I'm terrified for the heightened racism in Europe after this. Was Paris chosen due to the Charlie Hebdo thing?
I agree.
On a sidenote I heard that French intelligence is trying to keep tabs on 5000 people (was stated on CNN). That is next to impossible and then shit like this can happen. You need at least 5-10 people to monitor one individual. But it also shows that how we deal with this right now, is not working.
Agreed, one percent is 16 million people, to give a sense of scope to the number 1.6 billion (please note that this is not meant as an estimate of terrorists of any kind). The absolute vast majority of Muslims are peaceful and have nothing to do with this.
Guerrillas in the Mist
Member
I think he's saying the opposite, that jihadists want some sort of culture clash and for the refugees to be treated poorly and with disdain.
It highlights the emptiness of their culture and beliefs: that people are fleeing them for a better life with their "enemies", and it looks bad on their efforts to build some sort of utopian caliphate.
Attacks stemming from a direct incompatibility of islam toward the west are not happening daily.
I haven't seen anyone claim all Islamic violence, internally or externally, are exclusively the cause of blowback arising from western influence. Radicalism is too complicated to narrow down to one cause.
BumblebeeCody
Member
shinra-bansho
Member
Please don't post videos and/or images if they serve no purpose other than to horrify and upset people further.
http://fee.org/freeman/churchills-folly-how-winston-churchill-created-modern-iraq/
When we say Western intervention, we're literally talking about the creation of the states themselves. Yes, the area was a tribal conflict of shit before, but western imperialism dating back to the Ottomans helped spark most of the strife we see today. No way is this intense if we went about it a different way. It's not a problem fundamental to Islam. It's a problem fundamental to the land and the lack of education, structure, and a society that's inclusive and not exclusive.
Christianity evolved along with society. Islam hasn't had the chance yet. We had the chance to help after WW1 and we fucked it up about as much as you could. And we're continuing the losing streak.
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